24

votes

Who's up for Paleo 2.0?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created March 31, 2011 at 1:20 PM

Just curious what everyone thought about Kurt Harris' latest blogpost about the Myth of the Paleolithic Diet? I personally think he comes up with some great points that might help this kind of community grow. Any thoughts?

http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2011/3/30/paleo-20-a-diet-manifesto.html

Eea4c0f072bb5caa74c1fbe6dfab5f46

(942)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

I will check it out for sure, thanks Daninidaho.

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on May 22, 2011
at 01:22 PM

or the fat on the grass-fed steak

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 08, 2011
at 06:28 PM

Not to mention the even greater amount of amylase from our pancreas ... But even if there's nothing wrong with carbs as such there might be something wrong with "excess" carbs, whatever that might mean.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 08, 2011
at 03:23 AM

Jack-- I totally agree with you. Nothing wrong with posting this question, but voting up is strange. This is two degrees removed from any actual ideas. It's a hack about a post by Kurt Harris that is re-stating his tenets and re-labeling them (albeit in a cogent way).

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 08, 2011
at 03:19 AM

Jack-- I totally agree with you. Nothing wrong with posting this question, but voting up is strange. This is two degrees removed from any actual ideas. It's about a hack about a post by Kurt Harris that is re-stating his tenets and re-labeling them.

65e21ad00e1df766a10ad796366d3343

(20)

on April 02, 2011
at 08:07 PM

Man, I was with him back when that band was still underground. ... wait

Aebee51dc2b93b209980a89fa4a70c1e

(1982)

on April 01, 2011
at 06:01 PM

We have two Brads on PH, it seems. Welcome.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on April 01, 2011
at 04:12 PM

exactly. and that's a stupid use of the upvote button. i know i cannot edit these comments and I'm fine with that. i won't take it back.

452b4d079e0c39d4ca923e712f64239f

(196)

on April 01, 2011
at 02:38 PM

Count me in--he clarifies exactly what Paleo eating is, and doesn't hem and haw around the edges with cheese, seeds, or other food loopholes I've seen from other so-called "cave" eaters.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on April 01, 2011
at 09:27 AM

I think Jack it's about giving thumbs up to Kurt Harris.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on April 01, 2011
at 09:22 AM

I think Jack it's about giving thumbs up to Kurt Harris.

C2502365891cbcc8af2d1cf1d7b0e9fc

(2437)

on April 01, 2011
at 09:16 AM

Why preferably through offal? Why not just eat steak?

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 01, 2011
at 05:21 AM

True, I've never known Dr. H to be a big offal booster, but I've also never known him to be an opponent. And of course there could be something of his I'm forgetting or (gasp) haven't seen yet.

425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on April 01, 2011
at 04:47 AM

There wasn't science to back it up to begin with, like a few other things coming from that source.

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on April 01, 2011
at 12:09 AM

i guess so! i never had a name for it before i invented my little nickname, but ive certainly always been good at NOT listening to what other people were doing!

499f188c87c6980742b9ba98caa6f563

(683)

on April 01, 2011
at 12:08 AM

I was with him before any of you were.

F910318b9aa27b91bcf7881f39b9eabe

(1164)

on March 31, 2011
at 09:57 PM

Robb Wolf is stepping back on the whole fish oil issue. You should listen to his podcast's latest 2 episodes.

C61399790c6531a0af344ab0c40048f1

on March 31, 2011
at 09:23 PM

The Continuum Concept is what you have been instinctively doing. Listening to your instincts, doing what feels right and getting the results you want is what it's all about.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on March 31, 2011
at 08:40 PM

I think most would assume that a grass-fed steak has all of the micros in sufficient quantities; I know I did.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on March 31, 2011
at 07:44 PM

Well, trace minerals are in one of the five "corollary points": "4) Believe that a whole foods diet that includes adequate micronutrients is the best way to eat healthy."

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on March 31, 2011
at 07:43 PM

I'm just curious... what is the reason for so many upvotes? Is it that you all are saying "Yes" to the question's title? Because this is just asking "hey what do you all think about Kurt's new post?". I don't see how this particular question invokes additional insight on this topic. And just to clarify, I'm not concerned in the least, meaning that my pasture butter is gonna taste just as rich and creamy tomorrow morning regardless of how people vote on PaleoHacks. I'm asking out of pure curiousity. I honestly just don't get it unless people are using the upvote button to "answer the question".

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on March 31, 2011
at 07:08 PM

It also rocks for us science types, too.

3b803506ca7d7b5796bc16ee5b9f11d3

(198)

on March 31, 2011
at 06:47 PM

I'll just add the personal opinion that as much as indicting fats never made sense, doing a 360-degree turnaround to vilify carbs "just because" doesn't either. In terms of our evolutionary heritage, why do we have all that amylase in our saliva then?

3b803506ca7d7b5796bc16ee5b9f11d3

(198)

on March 31, 2011
at 06:44 PM

I'm not going to go hunting for links, but I'm pretty sure Dr. Harris always qualifies his opinions on macro-nutrient ratios with something like "for normal/healthy/non-broken individuals". I'm guessing that if you've already lost a lot of weight and still need to lose a lot more, then you're already not in that "normal" qualifier? He has some posts addressing weight loss and the role of ketosis, you may find those helpful.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on March 31, 2011
at 06:25 PM

The Robb Wolf fish oil calculator puts me at 3.5g of DHA/EPA per day. I consume about 5g of omega 6 per day. I do eat that much fish and it isn't hard. A bit of salmon. I don't really count what is in lamb and eggs but I bet it is at least 1.5 That means a very small amount of fish.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 31, 2011
at 06:18 PM

have u read this? http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2011/2/5/no-such-thing-as-a-macronutrient-part-ii-carbohydrates-revis.html

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:53 PM

He posts comments he sees fit. He did not post others that think he did not go far enough and in areas where science disagrees with him big time. Not surprising when you close comments to reduce your stress level as he pointed out in Kresser podcast. I enjoyed it but I had some issues with it

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:52 PM

i was 80% joking.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:35 PM

"Can't eat that much fish?"... He has never seen me at an all you can eat sashimi place. *laughing* But even in that rare case KGH is still correct, I cannot eat at such a place every day, not enough to beat out the oxidation... That is one of the reasons I'm a fan of krill oil, it naturally occurs with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astaxanthin a potent antioxidant.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:32 PM

i was with him all along :-D

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:30 PM

i know. i sent it to my dad who's been doing it for 3 months now and he was like "ooooohhhhhh. i knew you weren't totally crazy but it was nice to see a guy who actually knows what he is talking about explain it." my explanation obviously was a minor fail.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:26 PM

\o/ For phones that can do everything! \o/ I already sent it to the person that started me on Paleo and my sister. I feel like I've already been living Paleo the way he puts it down, but it is nice to read.

Aebee51dc2b93b209980a89fa4a70c1e

(1982)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:11 PM

No, Sisson loves butter.

Ba686a7b91a9c04f18170dd4ac762968

on March 31, 2011
at 05:10 PM

I'm referring to the n-3 in the diet, which you can get plenty of without eating fish, if you eat grass fed butter and ruminants. There is nothing wrong with eating fish per se- what would be damaging is trying to compensate for high 6 by eating enough fish to do so - because the 6+3 number gets high - the point is you have two parameters to correct at the same time, 6:3 ratio and 6+3. It's an optimization equation. The only way to correct them BOTH at the same time is to radically reduce 6, not to increase 3, most of which just causes oxidative damage before it makes it to the enzyme anyway.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:05 PM

Still a good post though, just not a revolution as the name (or the hype) might imply.

61b801de5dc345b557cd4623d4a4f26b

(2682)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:55 PM

I agree completely that this is a great source to send to those who are curious. I try to explain why I eat what I do (and don't) and end up bumbling and saying mostly "um."

61b801de5dc345b557cd4623d4a4f26b

(2682)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:49 PM

I had the same thought! Once work is over, the link is going up on facebook. 8)

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:40 PM

Also "n-3 PUFA - necessary to balance excess n-6 but otherwise bad - contextual" from his earlier blog post, so things aren't black and white.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:38 PM

Mike: The calculator is meant as sort of a starting point, for people to replace omega6 saturated tissues (coming from SAD for instance) with omega3. Anyway check any Rob's 2010/2011 piece about the fish oil since he explains it better than me.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:32 PM

it didn't sound like a 'dig' to me... just background info to paint a picture of the situation he was explaining.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:29 PM

funny you say that jordan... most of the comments below the article have people saying exactly that.

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:27 PM

i loved every bit of it, except the dig at "lefty, Unitarian, artists"!

8021ea3940df66820628d5bc5c29377c

(198)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:25 PM

I disagree with the statement "you can't realistically eat that much fish". I asked Kurt about it here http://robbwolf.com/2011/02/02/kurt-harris-visits-the-paleo-solution/#comment-25077 And he basically says that too much fish is bad for you as too much fish oil.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:22 PM

kgh also doesn't recommend regular supplementation of fish oil or vitamin d. in general he tries not to go farther than what proven studies say about paleo.

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:22 PM

thats funny....

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:20 PM

it's very good, melissa. even for us nonscientists :)

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:18 PM

it was the post that i had been waiting for

A78b6ea3f3af17ec514d019a1f9cce25

(145)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:14 PM

Yeah I think there is a stigma here at times where people begin to over analyze things and in turn creates a great deal of stress. Some of the questions people ask are intriguing, but I begin to think " really? c'mon now."

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:11 PM

right Mike. There's a bit of a divide among folks over this at this time. Some say supp. Others say just minimize n-6 and eat food sources of omega3. But there's a lot of discussion about that on PH already. personally I don't supp, but eat zero veg oils, and eat some wild cold water fish and pasture butter and pastured eggs. adding too much omega3 is still adding oxidation-prone poly, and since the only reason to do that is too 'counterbalance' and already too high amount of n-6 poly, i just don't see the connection at this time.

Eea4c0f072bb5caa74c1fbe6dfab5f46

(942)

on March 31, 2011
at 03:40 PM

I agree Brad, I think the question "is it paleo" needs to go. Will it nourish me the way I want to be, is a much better barometer.

9e7039b63b656582f66d84c5255b436d

(1132)

on March 31, 2011
at 03:39 PM

so he's closer to Mark Sissons?

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 31, 2011
at 03:19 PM

Kurt, as always, leading the intellectual vanguard wrt paleo nutrition. Great post. Much needed for the Paleo community.

425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on March 31, 2011
at 02:53 PM

But I am going to make a keyboard out of leather and chicken bones because plastic keyboards are not paleo.

Aebee51dc2b93b209980a89fa4a70c1e

(1982)

on March 31, 2011
at 02:42 PM

For one, Robb Wolf generally recommends against dairy

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 31, 2011
at 02:20 PM

Ooh! I can't see it with my dumb work filter, but now you've made me want to read it enough to use my phone!

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21 Answers

9
F910318b9aa27b91bcf7881f39b9eabe

on March 31, 2011
at 01:49 PM

Kurt is a very important cog in the Paleo world and always the one to talk some sense into our heads...

I think his article is one of the best i've read, EVER!

So, yeah, i'm all for Paleo 2.0!

7
A78b6ea3f3af17ec514d019a1f9cce25

(145)

on March 31, 2011
at 02:40 PM

Awesome post IMO. I think it basically comes down to eating real natural foods and not stressing over stupid things to try and fit in the idea of being "paleo."

Eea4c0f072bb5caa74c1fbe6dfab5f46

(942)

on March 31, 2011
at 03:40 PM

I agree Brad, I think the question "is it paleo" needs to go. Will it nourish me the way I want to be, is a much better barometer.

425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on March 31, 2011
at 02:53 PM

But I am going to make a keyboard out of leather and chicken bones because plastic keyboards are not paleo.

A78b6ea3f3af17ec514d019a1f9cce25

(145)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:14 PM

Yeah I think there is a stigma here at times where people begin to over analyze things and in turn creates a great deal of stress. Some of the questions people ask are intriguing, but I begin to think " really? c'mon now."

Aebee51dc2b93b209980a89fa4a70c1e

(1982)

on April 01, 2011
at 06:01 PM

We have two Brads on PH, it seems. Welcome.

6
D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on March 31, 2011
at 02:02 PM

Already sharing the link with my friends. I'm glad to have a fresh, reasoned, current summary of the core principles that most people could digest.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on March 31, 2011
at 07:08 PM

It also rocks for us science types, too.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:26 PM

\o/ For phones that can do everything! \o/ I already sent it to the person that started me on Paleo and my sister. I feel like I've already been living Paleo the way he puts it down, but it is nice to read.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 31, 2011
at 02:20 PM

Ooh! I can't see it with my dumb work filter, but now you've made me want to read it enough to use my phone!

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:20 PM

it's very good, melissa. even for us nonscientists :)

61b801de5dc345b557cd4623d4a4f26b

(2682)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:49 PM

I had the same thought! Once work is over, the link is going up on facebook. 8)

5
Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on March 31, 2011
at 06:27 PM

so much of what attracted me to the paleo way of eating and being was the simplicity of it all. long before i knew what the paleo diet was, when i was vegetarian and raising my first baby, i would go to this mothers group for moms and babes 0-4 months old. it was great, but the level of neurosis in there made me start to dread it. i always sort of felt that my baby would let me know what she wanted, and that if i couldnt figure it out it was because i wasnt paying attention. that attitude served me well for the most part. i saw other mothers in the group spinning themselves into depression and hystericas and anger and resentment and fear over things like, "my mother in law told me not to pick up the baby when hes crying, but i want to." and, "someone in the checkout line said that my baby was too skinny and that i needed to supplement with formula; should i?" and, "what sacrifices to i need to make so i can afford the 300 dollar diaper bag to match my 700 dollar stroller?" it all seemed INSANE to me. so, i blogged about my new invention, "instinctual parenting" or "evolutionary parenting." pretty sure i wasnt the first one to come up with that, but the idea was essentially to just follow your gut and do whats best for you and your baby, and that you know your baby best. if i ever was in a situation where i didnt know what to do, i would always ask myself, "what would a mother in rural guatemala do? what would a mother do ten thousand years ago?" i have to say, the answer was always the right one, and that little mothering hack made our life so much easier, funner, healthier, happier and simpler.

its a long way of saying that i really appreciated dr. harris' post. i read it as an invitation to relax, to be in tune with your body and what it needs, what it craves, how it feels, and to go with that. i personally like having a list of specific foods that i avoid, and leaving it at that, not fretting when i eat soybean oil on occasion, or if there are trace amounts of gluten in the soy sauce at the restaurant. thats just best for me. i tend to (and you do too- dont deny it) get caught up in the specifics of food. several times a day i hear the voice in my head telling me to settle down and just make the healthiest choice. i think that the voice of reason, or the voice of least-neurosis, should be loudest for some of us.

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on April 01, 2011
at 12:09 AM

i guess so! i never had a name for it before i invented my little nickname, but ive certainly always been good at NOT listening to what other people were doing!

C61399790c6531a0af344ab0c40048f1

on March 31, 2011
at 09:23 PM

The Continuum Concept is what you have been instinctively doing. Listening to your instincts, doing what feels right and getting the results you want is what it's all about.

4
Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:24 PM

Dr Harris's post is fantastic. I'm for it!

452b4d079e0c39d4ca923e712f64239f

(196)

on April 01, 2011
at 02:38 PM

Count me in--he clarifies exactly what Paleo eating is, and doesn't hem and haw around the edges with cheese, seeds, or other food loopholes I've seen from other so-called "cave" eaters.

4
425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:08 PM

He didn't answer the paleolithic potty training issue in that post.

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:22 PM

thats funny....

3
29686e6867f73a7deee8bf0578cb2107

on April 08, 2011
at 02:59 AM

While a lot of the content of the post was good, I didn't think it was new data, nor was it particularly original (to him vs. other great writers/bloggers/researchers). I seem to be the only person who thought he was erecting something of a "Paleo strawman" just to knock it down. I offered the mildest of criticisms in a comment in that thread, and he basically insulted me in return. So now, I've crossed him off my reading list. There are plenty of other great (and scientifically rigorous, and optimistic, and intellectually generous) sources who already agree that "lean meat isn't the answer" etc. etc.

(All that said, if other people have been finding that post handy in turning on new people to healthier ways of eating and living, that's wonderful. It's just that for me, life is too short to read someone who thinks he's all that and a bag of pork rinds.)

3
4a7929c2aa05bf11349d9e55cb542d47

on March 31, 2011
at 07:46 PM

KGH was the precursor to my Paleo-genesis about 7 weeks ago. Someone I trust (who isn't even Paleo) linked me to his original Tylenol and the War on Drugs post with the simple suggestion: "Read this". I did, and I loved the analysis, so I checked out the rest of the blog. 2 days later I had given up gluten and my Paleo journey was underway.

His most recent post will likely get passed around and influence more people to experiment with Paleo.

2
39a1a0bc7855c084ac59df60fdf9c0dd

(1505)

on March 31, 2011
at 06:03 PM

I loved him his post. Contrary to what a couple people have written, I think much of it is contrary to what many people on this forum write about.

2
84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:58 PM

Honestly, I think most people on PaleoHacks have moved beyond "It this paleo?!?" and are looking upon history more in "Stephan way" (who died eating what, who thrived eating what) without "How much mammoth per day did Grok eat and where can I buy mammoth meat ?".

"Grok" is Mark Sisson's (I believe) but it's not a dogma in any way. It's more of a help since in 90% cases, "What would Grok do" is usually more healthy/better than the alternative but it was not meant as 10000 B.C. time machine. As for Cordain, well, again I think most here have moved to other sources of info.

I look at "paleo" as an umbrella term since it has so many versions but all in all the labels are irrelavant. If someone wants to dismiss "paleo" because he thinks it's about recreating the Stone Age, then it will be his loss.

From his latest posts, for me, "There is No Such Thing as a Macronutrient" is still FTW, FTW, FTW.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:05 PM

Still a good post though, just not a revolution as the name (or the hype) might imply.

2
66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

on March 31, 2011
at 04:19 PM

i've posted it on facebook and emailed it out to many of my friends. i feel there is now no reason for me to explain why i eat the way i eat to anyone when he does in 20 minutes what it would take me several hours to do half as well...

61b801de5dc345b557cd4623d4a4f26b

(2682)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:55 PM

I agree completely that this is a great source to send to those who are curious. I try to explain why I eat what I do (and don't) and end up bumbling and saying mostly "um."

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:30 PM

i know. i sent it to my dad who's been doing it for 3 months now and he was like "ooooohhhhhh. i knew you weren't totally crazy but it was nice to see a guy who actually knows what he is talking about explain it." my explanation obviously was a minor fail.

2
94577e0344bb1671288ccee96083baf2

on March 31, 2011
at 02:40 PM

I think its awesome. One of the best articles on our subject i've read. Dr. Harris isn't afraid to change or modify his position on nutrition or whatever else he's interested in. Also check out his latest interview over at The Healthy Skeptic Podcast. Its very good.

Eea4c0f072bb5caa74c1fbe6dfab5f46

(942)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

I will check it out for sure, thanks Daninidaho.

1
Medium avatar

on March 31, 2011
at 06:20 PM

Those subtractions are the most important things to avoid, but any mention of optimal nutrition must mention trace minerals, acquired preferably through the consumption of offal.

Additionally, starch via white rice seems largely innocuous.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 01, 2011
at 05:21 AM

True, I've never known Dr. H to be a big offal booster, but I've also never known him to be an opponent. And of course there could be something of his I'm forgetting or (gasp) haven't seen yet.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on March 31, 2011
at 07:44 PM

Well, trace minerals are in one of the five "corollary points": "4) Believe that a whole foods diet that includes adequate micronutrients is the best way to eat healthy."

C2502365891cbcc8af2d1cf1d7b0e9fc

(2437)

on April 01, 2011
at 09:16 AM

Why preferably through offal? Why not just eat steak?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on March 31, 2011
at 08:40 PM

I think most would assume that a grass-fed steak has all of the micros in sufficient quantities; I know I did.

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on May 22, 2011
at 01:22 PM

or the fat on the grass-fed steak

1
C2502365891cbcc8af2d1cf1d7b0e9fc

(2437)

on March 31, 2011
at 06:15 PM

Taubes' carbohydrate hypothesis is that carbohydrate drives insulin which in turn drives fat storage. Harris has not adequately addressed this. Just because he (Harris) does not want to "indict a whole class of macronutrient" does not mean it shouldn't be done. Fat and protein are necessary, but are carbohydrates? Or are they merely convenient?

If you need or want to lose weight, you better watch your carbohydrate intake. I'm on the zero carb end of the paleo spectrum. I have lost a lot of weight and I need to lose a lot more.

3b803506ca7d7b5796bc16ee5b9f11d3

(198)

on March 31, 2011
at 06:44 PM

I'm not going to go hunting for links, but I'm pretty sure Dr. Harris always qualifies his opinions on macro-nutrient ratios with something like "for normal/healthy/non-broken individuals". I'm guessing that if you've already lost a lot of weight and still need to lose a lot more, then you're already not in that "normal" qualifier? He has some posts addressing weight loss and the role of ketosis, you may find those helpful.

3b803506ca7d7b5796bc16ee5b9f11d3

(198)

on March 31, 2011
at 06:47 PM

I'll just add the personal opinion that as much as indicting fats never made sense, doing a 360-degree turnaround to vilify carbs "just because" doesn't either. In terms of our evolutionary heritage, why do we have all that amylase in our saliva then?

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 31, 2011
at 06:18 PM

have u read this? http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2011/2/5/no-such-thing-as-a-macronutrient-part-ii-carbohydrates-revis.html

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 08, 2011
at 06:28 PM

Not to mention the even greater amount of amylase from our pancreas ... But even if there's nothing wrong with carbs as such there might be something wrong with "excess" carbs, whatever that might mean.

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:36 PM

We could evolve to eat most anything. The principle, to me at least, has always been the question of what we are best adapted to eat. This has far more to do with modern nutrional research, which is sorely underfunded, and far less to do with what a slightly underevolved Grok did, as detailed evidence will always be scant and speculative.

I'm glad that he is stepping up as a scientist (a la Taubes) and distancing himself from the Larsonesque rationale for this lifestyle. It only adds to the credibility.

1
3020fb359dfbedaf90f1611b036d3432

(1138)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:11 PM

Admitting that his diet recommendations seem to correspond more with the Weston A. Price Foundation than the average paleolithic diet out there was eye opening. My own diet has evolved from Art DeVany to PaNu to a WAPF lite (without grains). I never thought there was much difference between WAPF and PaNu other than the grains and reading Dr. Harris' Paleo2.0 post reassured me on this.

1
E242ecf1fecbac866894059f5304b4c6

(318)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:25 PM

it seems to be that a lot of what his post was directed towards is (most of) this site itself.

so it'll be funny to see how many people jump on the "i was with him all along" wagon

499f188c87c6980742b9ba98caa6f563

(683)

on April 01, 2011
at 12:08 AM

I was with him before any of you were.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:32 PM

i was with him all along :-D

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:29 PM

funny you say that jordan... most of the comments below the article have people saying exactly that.

65e21ad00e1df766a10ad796366d3343

(20)

on April 02, 2011
at 08:07 PM

Man, I was with him back when that band was still underground. ... wait

1
28bd65a868abd76e0d544d91b46a975e

on March 31, 2011
at 04:00 PM

I was surprised when I read this:

Many are aware that 6:3 ratio is important, so they try to compensate by taking fish oil to balance the 6:3 ratio. This doesn???t really work too well ??? you can???t realistically eat that much fish, and if you take fish oil supplements, you now exacerbate the second and more important problem with excess n-6, which is your total PUFA intake. High total PUFA, especially including the highly unstable n-3, leads to oxidative damage to your cells. Your arteries, liver and other organs don't appreciate extra oxidative damage.

This seems to contradict what most in the Paleo community advocate. Especially when you have the Robb Wolf Fish Oil Calculator on Whole9.

http://whole9life.com/fish-oil/

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:35 PM

"Can't eat that much fish?"... He has never seen me at an all you can eat sashimi place. *laughing* But even in that rare case KGH is still correct, I cannot eat at such a place every day, not enough to beat out the oxidation... That is one of the reasons I'm a fan of krill oil, it naturally occurs with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astaxanthin a potent antioxidant.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:11 PM

right Mike. There's a bit of a divide among folks over this at this time. Some say supp. Others say just minimize n-6 and eat food sources of omega3. But there's a lot of discussion about that on PH already. personally I don't supp, but eat zero veg oils, and eat some wild cold water fish and pasture butter and pastured eggs. adding too much omega3 is still adding oxidation-prone poly, and since the only reason to do that is too 'counterbalance' and already too high amount of n-6 poly, i just don't see the connection at this time.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:38 PM

Mike: The calculator is meant as sort of a starting point, for people to replace omega6 saturated tissues (coming from SAD for instance) with omega3. Anyway check any Rob's 2010/2011 piece about the fish oil since he explains it better than me.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:40 PM

Also "n-3 PUFA - necessary to balance excess n-6 but otherwise bad - contextual" from his earlier blog post, so things aren't black and white.

F910318b9aa27b91bcf7881f39b9eabe

(1164)

on March 31, 2011
at 09:57 PM

Robb Wolf is stepping back on the whole fish oil issue. You should listen to his podcast's latest 2 episodes.

8021ea3940df66820628d5bc5c29377c

(198)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:25 PM

I disagree with the statement "you can't realistically eat that much fish". I asked Kurt about it here http://robbwolf.com/2011/02/02/kurt-harris-visits-the-paleo-solution/#comment-25077 And he basically says that too much fish is bad for you as too much fish oil.

Ba686a7b91a9c04f18170dd4ac762968

on March 31, 2011
at 05:10 PM

I'm referring to the n-3 in the diet, which you can get plenty of without eating fish, if you eat grass fed butter and ruminants. There is nothing wrong with eating fish per se- what would be damaging is trying to compensate for high 6 by eating enough fish to do so - because the 6+3 number gets high - the point is you have two parameters to correct at the same time, 6:3 ratio and 6+3. It's an optimization equation. The only way to correct them BOTH at the same time is to radically reduce 6, not to increase 3, most of which just causes oxidative damage before it makes it to the enzyme anyway.

425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on April 01, 2011
at 04:47 AM

There wasn't science to back it up to begin with, like a few other things coming from that source.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on March 31, 2011
at 06:25 PM

The Robb Wolf fish oil calculator puts me at 3.5g of DHA/EPA per day. I consume about 5g of omega 6 per day. I do eat that much fish and it isn't hard. A bit of salmon. I don't really count what is in lamb and eggs but I bet it is at least 1.5 That means a very small amount of fish.

1
9e7039b63b656582f66d84c5255b436d

(1132)

on March 31, 2011
at 02:27 PM

I'm not normally into the Pa??u website, but that's a really well written article; I've never really seen what the difference is between Kurt Harris and Robb Wolf's advice.

Aebee51dc2b93b209980a89fa4a70c1e

(1982)

on March 31, 2011
at 05:11 PM

No, Sisson loves butter.

9e7039b63b656582f66d84c5255b436d

(1132)

on March 31, 2011
at 03:39 PM

so he's closer to Mark Sissons?

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 31, 2011
at 04:22 PM

kgh also doesn't recommend regular supplementation of fish oil or vitamin d. in general he tries not to go farther than what proven studies say about paleo.

Aebee51dc2b93b209980a89fa4a70c1e

(1982)

on March 31, 2011
at 02:42 PM

For one, Robb Wolf generally recommends against dairy

1
Fe9564da32d84d7213ef2a203f97de48

(279)

on March 31, 2011
at 02:17 PM

It is a great article and something I will be sharing to everybody interested in Paleo. It puts in words a lot of things I have been thinking about.

0
03fa485bfd54734522755f47a5e6597e

(3944)

on March 31, 2011
at 02:56 PM

Excellent article. There's nothing really new in it, especially if you've read the rest of his posts, but he sums up the important points and his process of discovery very well. It should be a great article to send people who are becoming interested in unconventional views on food for the first time and need a primer.

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