23

votes

What do you think are the "dubious" parts of the Paleo movement?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created March 13, 2011 at 1:03 PM

Those of you follow PaNu/Dr Kurt Harris probably have read that he will be cross posting at Psychology Today Online. As a big fan of Dr Harris, I am very happy for him and the masses that will be getting exposure to Paleo principles.

In his latest post, he mentions the following - "I think this represents a fine opportunity for Paleo 2.0/ancestral health to penetrate the mainstream while avoiding some of the more dubious parts of the 'movement'."

What do you think are those dubious parts???

My thoughts-

1) I dislike the vegan/vegetarian bashing. There is no doubt vegans are equally, if not more, critical of meat eaters. But as cliched as it might be, two wrongs don't make a right. I am confident in Paleo being the right approach to health and don't have the need to feel good about it by being critical of the "heretics". However, it seems like a lot of Paleo blogs / posts here feel the need to point out the nonsense of vegetarianism, incurring further criticism from the veggie-folks. Feels like we live in Gaza with this kind of b.s.

2) Paleo re-enactment. I don't care if Grok did it or not. Grok doing it might be a potential for consideration, but not the only condition. I, for one, do a lot of dairy even if Grok didn't.

3) To a much lesser extent than #1 and #2, I also think the zero-carb Hezbollah, as Kurt Harris has dubbed it. He has articulated this at the PaNu site far better than I can so I won't bother here.

Anyway, what do you think?

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Misogyny? Could you explain?

3573f7a18ee620179fda184c7d8b7242

(241)

on May 12, 2011
at 09:07 PM

Well said! Ditto perceived ageism, resource management, supporting local farmers, etc. Thanks!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 05, 2011
at 11:27 PM

It would probably be helpful for you to make sure to eat more Omega 3's.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 05, 2011
at 11:17 PM

Sneaky works- I have snuck tongue into kids in the form of crock-pot beef tacos!

9cfa1ab909f6f89544be665d4ef6e3ea

on March 20, 2011
at 03:50 PM

I did not come to paleo from Crossfit, and everything I've read makes it sound as though the rank-and-file began adopting a paleo eating style even as the Crossfit "authorities" said it was crap and the Zone was gold.

64242a1130eb51f4852f78beed38b3d5

(1343)

on March 20, 2011
at 02:49 AM

I think Nikoley is dubious. I would never argue his "good" info but his manners leave a lot to be desired. The ever present vegan bashing is bad enough but bashing people who "try" to do better is kind of just wrong. I'm a nobody but I'm sure he would creep out the folks around my fire, bad part he is a gateway source. For the Brad fellow he is recently in a podcast where he demeans an entire culture and it is nothing related to food.

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on March 20, 2011
at 02:04 AM

Oh, dear, if sporting a six-pack were a prerequisite to being considered a paleo practitioner made manifest, I'd just as well give up now. ;)

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on March 16, 2011
at 10:26 AM

It is very easy for people to take things out of context, especially when you have volumes of scholarship to aim at, and which for one, I am most grateful to Dr. Harris for. His knowledge and Forum has enducated me, and although I do not understand all the scientific explanations he uses to support his assertions, he has undoubtedly put me on the right road to good health. I am sure that I am not alone in saying this. Thank you Dr. Harris.

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on March 16, 2011
at 09:21 AM

The proof of the pudding is in the eating - are you fit and healthy - if not change the ingredients

9cfa1ab909f6f89544be665d4ef6e3ea

on March 15, 2011
at 09:26 AM

I recall that Humbert Humbert comment. I also recall thinking it said far more about the commenter than the person being commented on.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on March 15, 2011
at 02:48 AM

After seeing the exchange down below, I think next time I am going to ask something less controversial, like what people's views are on gay rights or abortion.

Ba686a7b91a9c04f18170dd4ac762968

on March 15, 2011
at 02:04 AM

I am responsible for people that misquote me? You're an ass, Culp. People like you have ruined this forum. I had never even heard of you until you called me a pedophile. Try saying it to my face. I am definitely not your good friend.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on March 15, 2011
at 12:43 AM

May as well admit that though you didn't intend to do so, you did inadvertently spawn a "good portion" of the zero carb movement, as I said. I see ZC'ers parrot your line about there being nothing essential or magic about plants all the time. I never stated that you spawned all of it or even that you yourself are or even were ZC. Reading comprehension, heh, that's a good one. I find the childish petulance of your recent blogpost to be, well, interesting. Don't backpedal too hard, good friend, it may turn into chronic cardio.

425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on March 14, 2011
at 06:09 PM

seconding the "using trainers as references." The rule that 99+% of what you hear at the gym applies to these guys as well, whatever faux qualifications they claim.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 14, 2011
at 05:39 PM

Unfortunately in IRL meetups they are a large presence.

Ba686a7b91a9c04f18170dd4ac762968

on March 14, 2011
at 03:52 PM

Travis once again proves his poor reading comprehension, as does any other idiot who thinks I "spawned" zero carb. Read "Raw Paleo and Zero Carb", written specifically to call out the idiocy of thinking carbs are poison. And VLC is VLC, it is not zero carb. as far as: "When I see someone say, "There are no essential carbohydrates," my takeaway is that I can eat a diet 100% free of carbs" You would need to misunderstand the meaning of the word essential in a dietary context to leap that chasm. I guess reading blogs is just too dangerous for some people.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on March 14, 2011
at 02:47 PM

You *can* eat a diet free of carbohydrates and be healthy; it's a true statement and one every low-carber is familiar with. But there's a world of difference between enumerating possible courses of action and *advocating* a course of action. What you're doing is looking for a single quote or blog post which supports the advocacy narrative, a tactic which is only convincing if you ignore pretty much everything else KGH ever wrote AND completely misinterpret the intent of the quote you find. That's neither honest nor accurate.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on March 14, 2011
at 02:44 PM

Joey This discussion/question looks like it should be in a separate thread of it's own rather than in this one on "dubious" part of the paleo movement. Could you post it separately? I'm sure you would get more responses that way.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 14, 2011
at 02:40 PM

@Lacey but are there "essential carbs"? could a person thrive eating nose to tail? i'm not a zero carber or vlc'er by any means but i've done it before and have had amazing health while doing it. Him making the argument that no carbs are essential isn't advocating low carb, especially when he's repeatedly stated similar statements to the aforementioned ones. your takeaway from it doesn't make his writing's intent or others takeaway from it so.

Aebee51dc2b93b209980a89fa4a70c1e

(1982)

on March 14, 2011
at 02:17 PM

Okay, but this is just some a$$hole on youtube being interviewed by some foreign news agency. He's not one of the "voices" of the paleo community (e.g. Cordain, Wolf, Sisson, et al). I'm sure you can find any kind of example of any kind of offensive behavior online if you look for ten minutes. To draw from that that such attitudes are somehow part and parcel of paleo seems a stretch to me.

669790861549f3c6d54d88a65296ed19

(452)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:58 PM

Dexter,thank you 4 the link,but it seems Tom is also an average exerciser. And yes,I'm taking Vit.D3 drops. I'm looking for people who don't exercise,I've seen one guy, at MDA,DFH (Diet for Humans) who doesn't work-out.I'd like to contact him,but can't seem to on his site.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:45 PM

PFW, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. When I see someone say, "There are no essential carbohydrates," my takeaway is that I can eat a diet 100% free of carbs (VLC, in other words) and be healthy. KGH is frequently misinterpreted. Maybe it's us, or maybe it's his writing style.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:30 PM

Quoth the article: "Add a moderate carb load and some GU bars if its a long race, and you will be faster than you were before." Also, commenting that carbohydrates are unnecessary is a response to the "you need carbs or you die!" meme rather than an endorsement of human pure carnivorism. Again, simply reading more than one article quickly disabuses one of the notion that KGH advocates ZC.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:16 PM

Definitely this one: http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/5/18/there-are-no-essential-carbohydrates-even-for-athletes.html

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 14, 2011
at 11:21 AM

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,677121,00.html" This reminded me of your post.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 14, 2011
at 10:49 AM

he goes on to say " I suspect anything from 0-30% carbs will work fine (for health) for most people. If you want to go beyond that to Kitavan levels with Yams or white rice, I doubt if that is as healthy, but that might be OK, too if you have extirpated the neolithic agents." so it seems really really odd to me that you would pick this post out as your evidence that he spawned the zero carb/vlc carb movement in paleo.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 14, 2011
at 10:42 AM

@Lacey "I have so far avoided doing this is to emphasize that PaNu is about avoidance of the neolithic agents of disease that are outside our evolutionary experience, and not about meal plans, "blocks", counting, or measuring. It is not about exact macronutrient ratios and it's definitely not about supplementation or medicalizing your diet." in the post you reference, this is what he writes even before he gets to anything else. this has been the overarching views of all his writings- the fact that elimination of the neolithic agents of disease followed by food quaility are the backbone of panu

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 14, 2011
at 09:55 AM

"Paleo" indeed. For me, that's the beauty of it. Vast and diverse.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 14, 2011
at 09:49 AM

From my experience, females are WAY MORE judgemental towards their own bodies than men. Also I didn't catch a lot of pack craze with Stephan/Ayers/Harris/Peter/Jaminets (people that I read). Even on paleo hacks.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on March 14, 2011
at 03:44 AM

There is Tom who live in Amsterdam that posts here. This is his profile. He has a website where you can leave an email address: http://paleohacks.com/users/2672/tom#axzz1GXbSlmfk Do not forget to supplement with Vit D3. It works wonders on your mood and on your absorption of foods.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 14, 2011
at 03:41 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCAgRmgHK2s and oh god, that is just a glimpse into this young man's rather offensive views that alienated many women in paleonyc

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on March 14, 2011
at 03:05 AM

This is your first question? Good grief. Nice job and welcome to PH. I think you'll do just fine here.

Aebee51dc2b93b209980a89fa4a70c1e

(1982)

on March 14, 2011
at 02:28 AM

Since turning to all things paleo, I've read just about anything I can get my hands on (Wolf, Devany, Cordain, Sisson, Harris, Melissa, Paleohacks, Eades, etc etc etc), and I have not once seen anything like any suggestion that paleo is "manly" or "aggressive" or "violent." Examples, please?

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on March 14, 2011
at 02:24 AM

This is quite possibly the best response of all!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on March 14, 2011
at 02:22 AM

In this case I spell dubious c-r-a-f-t-y

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 14, 2011
at 01:59 AM

Hahahahahaha, true that. "Is X Innocuous Food Totally Poisonous?"

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:43 AM

Probably this one: http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/11/13/what-i-eat.html (see paragraph beginning with "I eat about 5 % of calories as carbohydrate right now..." and his famous "I'm so bored with the Kitivans" post.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Actually, come to think of it, I can't think of a single post where he "advocates human carnivory". Can you find an example?

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:19 AM

KGH had nothing to do with spawning the zero carb movement. That was a totally independent phenomenon probably precipitated by Owsley Stanley (the Bear) and then pushed into the digital age thanks to Charles Washington's advocacy of ZC on one of the main low carb forums (which he then took to his own forum). This all happened well before Kurt Harris was anyone in the paleosphere. He was denouncing them as the "zero carb hezbollah" in Sept 2009 (3 months after he started panu.com). So yeah. No idea where you got that one from, but it's simply not true.

246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21430)

on March 14, 2011
at 12:05 AM

The best part about Paleo is not stressing over these things. The basics are... "embrace the quality, ignore the quantity, and get healthy". The basics as I suggest are: Eat grassfed, fattier meats, simply prepared and minimally seasoned. Eat green, leafy veggies. Eat potatoes/sweet potatoes ONLY if they are well tolerated. Eat organic/raw dairy if it is well tolerated (because of your gut flora issues, I would recommend against this at first). Do not eat grain-based foods, do not eat bean/legume based foods. Period.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on March 13, 2011
at 10:30 PM

Whoa, I'm hard-pressed to say anything definitive but I don't think that anyone around here is going to dispute that you should probably just start with nourishing and loving your body. You sound like you need more magnesium, do you supplement with it? 500mg of magnesium (not the oxide form, citrate is better) works wonders for psychological issues. Then the rest of nutrition is important too. You may not be the best candidate for obsessive Fitdaying but try to get a lot of nutrients. And eating fat helps. Many hormones are primarily made out of fat and your brain is largely fat. ;)

8274ce9d4bffd8209055e1e34def04d6

(429)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:28 PM

Some food allergies can be classified as psychosomatic.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:21 PM

Change is a coming. This paleo community does not see what I see because your down stream.....youre the grass roots. But I promise you docs are starting to question a lot. You the grass roots must help them become the change you want them to be to really help you and mankind. Buy them and book. Ask for the last appt of their day and tell them what you did and how you did it. Tell them how many others their are. Point them to resources they can read. Tell them their are other docs who do this. Even I found this place because a patient said I should come because I practice this way.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:18 PM

This is the big circle of life. If you change your diet you can increase your life and reverse type two diabetes. Paleo dieting improves mitochondrial energy production and life. But it requires you to have a doc who gets it and a patient who buys in to the paleolithic way of eating.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:18 PM

Here is the most interesting thing however.....While the drugs uses in the ACCORD trial were epic failures for patients and docs.......We have another trial done by a UCSF nephrologist that shows her diet reverse many of the effects quickly.... Guess what kind of diet it was? PALEOLITHIC!!!! Here is the link. Frassetto LA, Morris RC, Jr, Sebastian A. Long-term persistence of the ... a Paleolithic-hunter-gatherer-type diet. EJCN 63(8):947-55, 2009

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:17 PM

Look at what just occured about the ACCORD TRIAL. ACCORD showed that type two diabetics lives are cut short by 6 yrs......even showed that the treatment group had higher mortality despite 'improved' lower HgbA1c lab measurements and 'better' blood glucoses with pharmaceuticals! This is h...orrible news for docs and patients. It means that you must never become a diabetic period. Because even with the best medical treatment and best drugs out there you will still have a shortened life. Why? Your mitochondria are not working well and very leaky. The rust faster. And you die sooner!

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:16 PM

Very well said. I would add to it overemphasis on looks - there is one ideal look everyone should reach, no matter age, illnesses, children, pregnancies, kind of work etc. If you are not a six-pack, you failed at paleo...

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:11 PM

I've noticed misogyny or sexism in language. Paleo is the "manly" way of eating, people should "men up", paleo is aggressive and violent like cavemen (or what some modern people think cavemen were about). We still suffer from the 19th century misogynistic visions of what cavemen lives looked like - men were the bosses, women were to breed and satisfy men. A strong woman who is paleo and is happy about it doesn't fit the image. I remember even in the famous Colbert interview it was about finding a woman who is dairy-intolerant and celiac... as paleo women are not existing?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 13, 2011
at 08:59 PM

I've seen some misogyny in blogs, but most of it I've encountered has been in IRL meetups, mostly from men in the "pickup" community.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on March 13, 2011
at 08:57 PM

As I like to tell people: I'm a 21st century human, not a prehistoric one. I have no desire to live 40,000 years BP. I've tried SAD and low-fat-high-carb and they didn't work for me. I've tried vegetarianism. All were a disaster metabolically speaking. Paleo-style eating is working for me and it's a work in progress.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:52 PM

I agree that it's good news that cardiologists are finally looking.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:44 PM

This however can be tested. I dont think Jaminet or Sisson realize that while taken alone the foods do cause insulin release.....it is very short lived and when one eats this way chronically insulin levels drop dramatically when we test for it post prandially and fasting. We test for it all the time. The most interesting thing is when you eat a protein diet that has too many carbs for the liver of the host the spike is exponential. It goes up higher than one would expect. So the key once again is context. Protein married to fat is not the same as protein with carbs......it matters.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:40 PM

totally agree...

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:39 PM

I dont think Kurt know what optimal is. He is doing his own emperic work. Cardiologist are looking at runners because their death RATES are much higher than one would expectfrom their physical shape. Once you marry that with a high carb diet and the fact they are engaging in activities that generate inflammation it will make scientist look. And cardiology is looking. Its good news because the results will destroy the lipid hypothesis and likely point the gun at refined and whole grain carbs eventually

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:35 PM

paleo was initially well tied to crossfit but I think it is not going to be a long marriage.

2b4f887f5fd32a37c6038eb0aaaf3bf5

(1648)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:29 PM

Robb Wolf mentioned that he is coming out with a Spanish version of his book shortly, which I think will help greatly in getting the word out to a whole new population. As far as community building, there are lots of meet-up groups. Ours here in Seattle has some crossfit people, but it isn't a crossfit group by any means, just Paleo focused.

2b4f887f5fd32a37c6038eb0aaaf3bf5

(1648)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:25 PM

I'm curious, misogyny? What sort of misogyny are you finding in the Raw & VLC groups? Or are you speaking of the media? I, too, am tired of media only portraying Paleo as a male diet.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on March 13, 2011
at 08:24 PM

Well said, pfw. The first sentence of your second paragraph sums it up nicely. I do fine with dairy in moderation and don't like being told that I should cut it out because Grok and Graka didn't drink milk or eat cheese, or because some study showed this or that about dairy. I would never try to push dairy on someone, though, just because I do well with it (northern European ancestry). To each his or her own.

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:17 PM

Some of us have committed ourselves to self-experiments and bloodwork to determine which foods are allergenic (and to verify the celiac diagnosis). Multiple allergens are common with celiac. I have no evidence from personal experience that the gut is sensitive to disturbances of its "flora." Best digestion of my intitially gluten-free life occurred after a 10-day antibiotic series. I wondered why. Similar results occurred after eliminating starch and fiber. So I can eat antibiotics or avoid starch, fiber, and sugar, which seem to provide fuel and substrate to bad bugs. This is not dogma for me

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on March 13, 2011
at 08:08 PM

It's a shame you've been cut from the news stories.

C1ea79115a062250a7263764797faa30

(851)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:08 PM

Surely #2 is a matter of dubious practices in the media more so than the Paleo community, no?

0bcefaa82dc94f93ce705f86e235f335

(1591)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:07 PM

+1 to everything you said. Thanks for articulating it so well.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 13, 2011
at 07:25 PM

Exactly. Part of evolution is the will to try something that has never been done before.

C1ea79115a062250a7263764797faa30

(851)

on March 13, 2011
at 07:25 PM

I have noticed that the longer I do Paleo, the more problems I seem to have with different foods. I don't know how much of that can be attributed to paying more attention to my body's reactions, or disturbances in gut flora, but I'm sure it's not hypochondria as I certainly don't want any more food issues than I already have!

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 13, 2011
at 07:25 PM

Exactly? Part of evolution is trying things that have never been done before.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 13, 2011
at 07:21 PM

"Running is not good long term." OK, but there's a pretty long continuum between running and marathons. At one end you have the "runner" like me who trail runs, varies speed, hops over rocks, maintains a slow pace (over 10 min. mile usually). In the middle, Dr. Harris runs 10-15km per week and doesn't consider it chronic cardio (he says 10-15km per DAY would be CC). At the top end you have marathoners running 26 miles balls to wall full speed under 6 min. mile. Probably the latter is unhealthy, but I don't see enough evidence to make me switch to sprints exclusively.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 06:48 PM

the answer is going to be found at the first cytochrome in the mitochndria. We already know that marathon runners have much higher ROS there and they also die of heart disease too often because their so called "stable plaques burst die to short burst inflammation. See Jimm Fixx and Bill Scroeder. The Cardiology meeting in atlanta in 2009 had a study done between marathoners and type 2 DM and cardiac events over 4yrs. Marothoners had higher events because they ate high carb diets and exercised. The type two DM ate bad diets but did no exercise. Running is not good long term. Sprints are.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 06:44 PM

the tipping point will come soon enough. Its building with my collegues. Once docs flip the house of cards will follow. There are many docs doubting the lipid hypothesis already so the next step in their evolution will be to look under the paleo rock. That is why It is imperitive patients help their docs change. I just did a podcast with Jimmy Moore this weekend about this one issue. Its the thing that will change everything.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 13, 2011
at 06:11 PM

If only it was the other way around...

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 13, 2011
at 06:10 PM

If only it was the other way around...

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 13, 2011
at 06:08 PM

It is a shame that it is not the opposite way aroung.

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on March 13, 2011
at 04:48 PM

Does sneaking organ meat into chili when your wife dislikes offal count as dubious? http://paleohacks.com/questions/24572/slipping-organ-meats-into-wifes-chilli#axzz1GQY9mFGS

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 13, 2011
at 04:31 PM

Chris and I have been talking a lot lately about how such "allergies" are probably due to disturbances in gut flora rather than actual allergies.

F1cd291cf9ba1ebd9a9db21d3dd09735

(436)

on March 13, 2011
at 03:59 PM

That's great and intriguing - do you perceive differences in the NYC community from the larger Paleo sphere?

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on March 13, 2011
at 03:49 PM

But don't most people eat a diet heavy on white flour and fructose? Also, I fail to see how that would induce amenorrhea. It seems that running is the more likely culprit.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 13, 2011
at 03:39 PM

I must say that NYC Paleo is luckily very ethnically diverse.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 13, 2011
at 03:02 PM

Yeah, but those confounding factors. Most long distance runners I know eat a diet heavy on the white flour and fructose (carb loading and all that). I understand that one of the studies that Dr. Harris quoted on Kresser's blog controlled for factors like smoking, but I didn't see any discussion of whether any of the subjects were eating a paleo diet.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on March 13, 2011
at 02:57 PM

I agree that the chronic cardio threshold has not been determined. But I definitely think marathons would qualify. There have been studies showing damage to the heart with that level of exercise. Also, lower bone density is common among long distance runners, as is amenorrhea among women. None of these are trivial things.

62b205d8d5c8fb09f2eea515f12cbd26

(54)

on March 13, 2011
at 02:43 PM

and:"Occam's Razor favors the simple over the complicated-don't eat grains, legumes, high fructose fruits, or sugar, lift weights and run, and fast occasionally. Not very detailed or complicated advice...no need to make it more complicated that what it is. It becomes complicated because of our habit of comparing results or progress to others. Sometimes it works, but other times our individual gene expression overrides generalities. We don't always like the results...."

62b205d8d5c8fb09f2eea515f12cbd26

(54)

on March 13, 2011
at 02:42 PM

and may I quote Art De Vany and some of the members of his blogs:" You can only become frustrated when you think you have control. You don't. Let it happen. Imagine, would a H-G become frustrated because it rains or the game got away? You have scarcely more control than that. We are not trying to control metabolism when we do IF; we are just mimicking the pattern our genes evolved under" and:"People start embellishing common sense until it becomes a stifling ideology, a religion, or no longer resembles its original content-usually in an effort to gain control over others..."

62b205d8d5c8fb09f2eea515f12cbd26

(54)

on March 13, 2011
at 02:39 PM

@pfw you're totally right:there is no one right diet for everybody...still I understand the search for the right diet, because the official information we got from "conventional wisdom" was so very wrong, changing every 5 to 10 years, that this time we wanted to get it right; I myself was happy to have found "Paleo" a few years ago, in those times there was only Cordain and De Vany, it was simple* and then "everybody" was experimenting and found things out which worked or not, plus the above mentioned human traits and you have the paleo "wars", anti vegan wars etc etc.

Af2ad65226384cedd4f5f08825a75b5d

(665)

on March 13, 2011
at 02:11 PM

I probably come off as vehemently pro-starch in response to the question (and other answers I've posted), but the funny thing is I'm currently a very low carb diet and my preferred diet has been a targeted ketogenic diet (so starch after workouts). But your answer truly encompasses the reasons I included the groups I did in my answer.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 13, 2011
at 02:07 PM

Totally on point. "Beware of those whose claim to found the truth". I'm often guilty of that and this post has reminded of it, therefore thank you.

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16 Answers

19
4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on March 13, 2011
at 01:56 PM

To quote Logan:

"... but a fervent view that their way is the ONLY or best way for everyone what can make those paleos dubious."

The moment you start to believe you've found the one way of eating for everyone is the moment you start being wrong. If there's a dubious part of the paleo community, it's a tendency for individuals to believe that their particular experience is generalizable across the population. This is not exclusive to the "Zero Carb Hezbollah" - it's a pretty common behavior in all diet communities, I think, especially in people who are relatively new and still in the transition stage between old and new ways of thinking about diet.

The starch point is a perfect example; some people do well without starch, and so expect everyone to have the same experience, while others do well with starch, and then expect everyone to have the same experience. Soon they're bickering and throwing crappy science at each other to prove who's right. But they're both wrong.

62b205d8d5c8fb09f2eea515f12cbd26

(54)

on March 13, 2011
at 02:39 PM

@pfw you're totally right:there is no one right diet for everybody...still I understand the search for the right diet, because the official information we got from "conventional wisdom" was so very wrong, changing every 5 to 10 years, that this time we wanted to get it right; I myself was happy to have found "Paleo" a few years ago, in those times there was only Cordain and De Vany, it was simple* and then "everybody" was experimenting and found things out which worked or not, plus the above mentioned human traits and you have the paleo "wars", anti vegan wars etc etc.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 13, 2011
at 02:07 PM

Totally on point. "Beware of those whose claim to found the truth". I'm often guilty of that and this post has reminded of it, therefore thank you.

62b205d8d5c8fb09f2eea515f12cbd26

(54)

on March 13, 2011
at 02:43 PM

and:"Occam's Razor favors the simple over the complicated-don't eat grains, legumes, high fructose fruits, or sugar, lift weights and run, and fast occasionally. Not very detailed or complicated advice...no need to make it more complicated that what it is. It becomes complicated because of our habit of comparing results or progress to others. Sometimes it works, but other times our individual gene expression overrides generalities. We don't always like the results...."

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on March 13, 2011
at 08:24 PM

Well said, pfw. The first sentence of your second paragraph sums it up nicely. I do fine with dairy in moderation and don't like being told that I should cut it out because Grok and Graka didn't drink milk or eat cheese, or because some study showed this or that about dairy. I would never try to push dairy on someone, though, just because I do well with it (northern European ancestry). To each his or her own.

62b205d8d5c8fb09f2eea515f12cbd26

(54)

on March 13, 2011
at 02:42 PM

and may I quote Art De Vany and some of the members of his blogs:" You can only become frustrated when you think you have control. You don't. Let it happen. Imagine, would a H-G become frustrated because it rains or the game got away? You have scarcely more control than that. We are not trying to control metabolism when we do IF; we are just mimicking the pattern our genes evolved under" and:"People start embellishing common sense until it becomes a stifling ideology, a religion, or no longer resembles its original content-usually in an effort to gain control over others..."

Af2ad65226384cedd4f5f08825a75b5d

(665)

on March 13, 2011
at 02:11 PM

I probably come off as vehemently pro-starch in response to the question (and other answers I've posted), but the funny thing is I'm currently a very low carb diet and my preferred diet has been a targeted ketogenic diet (so starch after workouts). But your answer truly encompasses the reasons I included the groups I did in my answer.

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on March 16, 2011
at 09:21 AM

The proof of the pudding is in the eating - are you fit and healthy - if not change the ingredients

17
A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

on March 13, 2011
at 09:27 PM

Over zealotry, obsessiveness with each and every detail of one's body, each fart, pimple or lost hair. Some of it is I think part of the "neophyte's zealotry", extreme rigid look at diet, health and all the things.

Obsession with fat, making fun and judging everyone who doesn't have a six pack, unless this person expresses guilt and will to get to the six-pack.

Extreme male-oriented vision. Men judging female bodies, knowing nothing about them.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 14, 2011
at 09:49 AM

From my experience, females are WAY MORE judgemental towards their own bodies than men. Also I didn't catch a lot of pack craze with Stephan/Ayers/Harris/Peter/Jaminets (people that I read). Even on paleo hacks.

17
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 13, 2011
at 03:14 PM

OK, since I've dealt extensively with the media, I'd place the press concerns paleo nyc has struggled with in two categories:

  1. Raw paleo and VLC folks. I have no problem with these diets in theory, at least temporarily, but at least in our Meetup it seems to be correlated with extreme quackery, misogyny, and weird obtuse unscientific just-so stories. The media loves these folks, but they are a very small minority of paleos.

  2. Using in-shape people, usually male trainers, as "experts" despite their complete lack of scientific training or qualifications.

I've been consistently cut from news stories I've participated in, while they've kept people from the latter two categories.

2b4f887f5fd32a37c6038eb0aaaf3bf5

(1648)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:25 PM

I'm curious, misogyny? What sort of misogyny are you finding in the Raw & VLC groups? Or are you speaking of the media? I, too, am tired of media only portraying Paleo as a male diet.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 13, 2011
at 06:10 PM

If only it was the other way around...

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Misogyny? Could you explain?

Aebee51dc2b93b209980a89fa4a70c1e

(1982)

on March 14, 2011
at 02:28 AM

Since turning to all things paleo, I've read just about anything I can get my hands on (Wolf, Devany, Cordain, Sisson, Harris, Melissa, Paleohacks, Eades, etc etc etc), and I have not once seen anything like any suggestion that paleo is "manly" or "aggressive" or "violent." Examples, please?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 14, 2011
at 03:41 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCAgRmgHK2s and oh god, that is just a glimpse into this young man's rather offensive views that alienated many women in paleonyc

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on March 13, 2011
at 08:08 PM

It's a shame you've been cut from the news stories.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 06:44 PM

the tipping point will come soon enough. Its building with my collegues. Once docs flip the house of cards will follow. There are many docs doubting the lipid hypothesis already so the next step in their evolution will be to look under the paleo rock. That is why It is imperitive patients help their docs change. I just did a podcast with Jimmy Moore this weekend about this one issue. Its the thing that will change everything.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 13, 2011
at 08:59 PM

I've seen some misogyny in blogs, but most of it I've encountered has been in IRL meetups, mostly from men in the "pickup" community.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 13, 2011
at 06:11 PM

If only it was the other way around...

C1ea79115a062250a7263764797faa30

(851)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:08 PM

Surely #2 is a matter of dubious practices in the media more so than the Paleo community, no?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 13, 2011
at 06:08 PM

It is a shame that it is not the opposite way aroung.

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:11 PM

I've noticed misogyny or sexism in language. Paleo is the "manly" way of eating, people should "men up", paleo is aggressive and violent like cavemen (or what some modern people think cavemen were about). We still suffer from the 19th century misogynistic visions of what cavemen lives looked like - men were the bosses, women were to breed and satisfy men. A strong woman who is paleo and is happy about it doesn't fit the image. I remember even in the famous Colbert interview it was about finding a woman who is dairy-intolerant and celiac... as paleo women are not existing?

Aebee51dc2b93b209980a89fa4a70c1e

(1982)

on March 14, 2011
at 02:17 PM

Okay, but this is just some a$$hole on youtube being interviewed by some foreign news agency. He's not one of the "voices" of the paleo community (e.g. Cordain, Wolf, Sisson, et al). I'm sure you can find any kind of example of any kind of offensive behavior online if you look for ten minutes. To draw from that that such attitudes are somehow part and parcel of paleo seems a stretch to me.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 14, 2011
at 05:39 PM

Unfortunately in IRL meetups they are a large presence.

425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on March 14, 2011
at 06:09 PM

seconding the "using trainers as references." The rule that 99+% of what you hear at the gym applies to these guys as well, whatever faux qualifications they claim.

64242a1130eb51f4852f78beed38b3d5

(1343)

on March 20, 2011
at 02:49 AM

I think Nikoley is dubious. I would never argue his "good" info but his manners leave a lot to be desired. The ever present vegan bashing is bad enough but bashing people who "try" to do better is kind of just wrong. I'm a nobody but I'm sure he would creep out the folks around my fire, bad part he is a gateway source. For the Brad fellow he is recently in a podcast where he demeans an entire culture and it is nothing related to food.

12
F1cd291cf9ba1ebd9a9db21d3dd09735

(436)

on March 13, 2011
at 03:25 PM

My opinion is a work-in-progress, and it may be only applicable to me, so YMMV.

Every time I would come across anything about a "Paleo diet", that term connoted sexist caveman stereotyping, and I never read further. When I finally opened my mind enough to get beyond the term and started to read and learn more, I appreciated the science underlying the diet and lifestyle.

However, Paleo still seems to favor males, people highly committed to CrossFit, sports hunting and the wink, wink, nodding to the Grok/caveman stereotype, and thus, reenactment.

Other than purchasing meat from grassfed animals, I have yet to read much about resource stewardship, honoring the animals which are killed and farmed for their meat and other products, supporting farmers who are trying to reduce runoff and manage manure and other waste products, and working to support vegetable and fruit crops locally and globally.

There doesn't seem to be much emphasis on community building outside of the CrossFit crowd, but perhaps this is more a factor of Paleoism being a nascent movement.

There is also a perceived degree of ageism. As one who is post menopausal and dealing with several seemingly intractable health issues, I pick up a blame the victim mentality sometimes when someone is posting a health management issue that isn't responding. Much of the discussions around activity and exercise do not include people with physical and mental limitations and vulnerabilities. Is this a Paleo concept? (In other words, ostracize the vulnerable to protect the health of the group) I read a fair number of posts which refer to people's perceptions that a benefit of a Paleo diet/lifestyle is "not looking their age". But what about celebrating and enjoying aging? Is age an enemy?

And as I look at photos of people who share that they are involved in Paleoism, so far I am seeing very few non-Caucasians and people who share that English is not their primary language. So I wonder if this is a North American/British/Australian/NZ dominated movement.

This comment isn't intended as criticism so much as just a beginner's list of questions.

Not sure I will ever fit in, but I will continue to use Paleo nutrition and activity principles as they are providing me with health and well being benefits.

F1cd291cf9ba1ebd9a9db21d3dd09735

(436)

on March 13, 2011
at 03:59 PM

That's great and intriguing - do you perceive differences in the NYC community from the larger Paleo sphere?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 13, 2011
at 03:39 PM

I must say that NYC Paleo is luckily very ethnically diverse.

2b4f887f5fd32a37c6038eb0aaaf3bf5

(1648)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:29 PM

Robb Wolf mentioned that he is coming out with a Spanish version of his book shortly, which I think will help greatly in getting the word out to a whole new population. As far as community building, there are lots of meet-up groups. Ours here in Seattle has some crossfit people, but it isn't a crossfit group by any means, just Paleo focused.

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:16 PM

Very well said. I would add to it overemphasis on looks - there is one ideal look everyone should reach, no matter age, illnesses, children, pregnancies, kind of work etc. If you are not a six-pack, you failed at paleo...

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:35 PM

paleo was initially well tied to crossfit but I think it is not going to be a long marriage.

0bcefaa82dc94f93ce705f86e235f335

(1591)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:07 PM

+1 to everything you said. Thanks for articulating it so well.

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on March 20, 2011
at 02:04 AM

Oh, dear, if sporting a six-pack were a prerequisite to being considered a paleo practitioner made manifest, I'd just as well give up now. ;)

9cfa1ab909f6f89544be665d4ef6e3ea

on March 20, 2011
at 03:50 PM

I did not come to paleo from Crossfit, and everything I've read makes it sound as though the rank-and-file began adopting a paleo eating style even as the Crossfit "authorities" said it was crap and the Zone was gold.

3573f7a18ee620179fda184c7d8b7242

(241)

on May 12, 2011
at 09:07 PM

Well said! Ditto perceived ageism, resource management, supporting local farmers, etc. Thanks!

8
425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:38 AM

Half the questions on the front page would make a good starter for this list.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on March 14, 2011
at 02:24 AM

This is quite possibly the best response of all!

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 14, 2011
at 01:59 AM

Hahahahahaha, true that. "Is X Innocuous Food Totally Poisonous?"

8
43c4473fda7e6f6bae82680a6a2333ef

on March 13, 2011
at 06:50 PM

...tendency by some to use Hunter-Gatherers as a panacea and narrow all options accordingly.

I.e. "H-G never did that, we shouldn't either".

Coming from a fundamentalist background, I get that sentiment, but it reduces all evolution to biological evolution. Versus also including technological, socio-cultural, informational, and cognitive evolution.

...along the same lines as others have said too...reducing notions of optimal exercise to crossfit, kettle bells, club bells, etc.

...it is hard to move on past Rousseau's romantic notions of pre-modern/industrial life...each of us Westerners has a bit of the Robinson Crusoe meme in us.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 13, 2011
at 07:25 PM

Exactly. Part of evolution is the will to try something that has never been done before.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on March 13, 2011
at 08:57 PM

As I like to tell people: I'm a 21st century human, not a prehistoric one. I have no desire to live 40,000 years BP. I've tried SAD and low-fat-high-carb and they didn't work for me. I've tried vegetarianism. All were a disaster metabolically speaking. Paleo-style eating is working for me and it's a work in progress.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 14, 2011
at 11:21 AM

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,677121,00.html" This reminded me of your post.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 13, 2011
at 07:25 PM

Exactly? Part of evolution is trying things that have never been done before.

6
8f4ff12a53a98f3b5814cfe242de0daa

(1075)

on March 13, 2011
at 03:40 PM

The hypochondriac tendencies of paleo are very iffy. It does not shock that someone could improve digestion issues by not eating some foods, but it seems like there are an inordinate number of people convinced that they are celiacs (and hence have immediate issues within minutes of eating - like when the food is still just sitting around in their stomach.....).

There is such a thing as food sensitivity certainly, and avoiding things like wheat may well be prudent, but how many people are really specifically allergic to all grains, fruits, nuts, potatoes, and "have" to only eat meat.

Kurt Harris's therapy post covered this pretty well from a carb prospective. Some foods are not ideal, but the idea that someone has a huge number of strange food intolerance just seems a bit off (some relating to food categories where allergies have never been documented even....).

C1ea79115a062250a7263764797faa30

(851)

on March 13, 2011
at 07:25 PM

I have noticed that the longer I do Paleo, the more problems I seem to have with different foods. I don't know how much of that can be attributed to paying more attention to my body's reactions, or disturbances in gut flora, but I'm sure it's not hypochondria as I certainly don't want any more food issues than I already have!

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:17 PM

Some of us have committed ourselves to self-experiments and bloodwork to determine which foods are allergenic (and to verify the celiac diagnosis). Multiple allergens are common with celiac. I have no evidence from personal experience that the gut is sensitive to disturbances of its "flora." Best digestion of my intitially gluten-free life occurred after a 10-day antibiotic series. I wondered why. Similar results occurred after eliminating starch and fiber. So I can eat antibiotics or avoid starch, fiber, and sugar, which seem to provide fuel and substrate to bad bugs. This is not dogma for me

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 13, 2011
at 04:31 PM

Chris and I have been talking a lot lately about how such "allergies" are probably due to disturbances in gut flora rather than actual allergies.

8274ce9d4bffd8209055e1e34def04d6

(429)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:28 PM

Some food allergies can be classified as psychosomatic.

5
Fac1af832cc3c6a20059c41411fd0f6b

(1548)

on March 13, 2011
at 07:18 PM

Rules, hierarchy, and suffering. These are things that are inherent with other food lifestyles and it seems that people are pretty darn set on making them core principles of Paleo.

There should be no rules or laws. We were designed to eat the stuff that was freely available prior to agriculture. We consumed what was available based on the ebb and flow of the seasons. We ate carbs, just not all the time. We need to put on fat for the winters. We cannot replicate exactly what was available and we don't all have the access, nor is there enough, wild game meat running around to feed everyone so we make due with what is available. I look at Paleo/Primal as being about ratios. I don't know,(nor care really) what the exact ratios are, but I do know that if I get the bulk of my daily calories from fat and protein, I feel better.

Hierarchy, labeling, grouping, what have you. I hate these things. Especially when applied to people. I have spent a great deal of time being wrong, I assume that others have as well, and when I was wrong I still felt the need to be derisive to others who where not doing as I do. THat was wrong of me. Now I approach this with the awareness that I may still be wrong, or at minimum, that I can still do things better. I try and respect anyone who is attempting to do the same thing and I am happy to share the things that have worked for me. THis does not stop me from pointing out things that are wrong, but instead of screaming "Heretic!" I try and give reasons for my assessment and encouragement to people to research more outside their comfort zone. THere are blogs and people who are proponents of the damnedest things out there. Also, if you find yourself feeling superior to others because you only eat things that screamed when they died, please keep it to yourself.

THis is not to say that there are not certain lifestyles and choices that are not worthy of derision, but usually it is amply evident by the condition of the practitioners of the sodapop and potatochip diet that things are not working out so well and that pointing it out does nothing to help.

Suffering is my biggest worry. Seems that people are damned set on making themselves hurt. THis is a common thread amongst all other diets that needs not be in this one. I tried whole grains and suffered gut issues, pain, bloating. I tried eliminating meats just to be hungry all the time, I tried exercising and my body hurt too much to do it and I'd just need to eat more. When I was eating the "healthy" AMerican diet I suffered IBS and gut pain and so on. I even saw blogs stating that some of the IBS issues I was suffering, namely the cow patty stool, was supposed to be normal. I assure you there was nothing normal about it.

I am not suffering anymore. I do more because I can.

4
246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21430)

on March 13, 2011
at 10:10 PM

I started eating Paleo before Crossfit was even invented (or at least mainstream) by following Audette's book. If you've seen my previous "no potato" posts maybe that's where I got that idea... although lately I've relaxed my viewpoints a bit.

One thing that concerns me slightly with modern paleo is that it is so different and so individual for each person, there really isn't a commonality. Paleos low on funds might have to suffer with commercial meats/veggies. Some folks claiming they are paleo may basically withdraw wheat, and continue eating everything that was SAD before except for sugar and wheat (these folks will even eat corn/rice). Strict, original paleos are branded as zealots, know-it-alls, or at the worst, dogmatic.

Discuss paleo foods with 10 people and receive 10 different answers as to "why" and 200 different answers as to "how".

You have Wolf's combination of Cordain's Paleo For Athletes + tubers + supplements Harris' Organic SAD + No-gluten + no sugar Cordain's 80/20 condoning diet coke and attacking nightshades Audette's VLC paleo + nightshade berries (tomatos/eggplant ok)

So, what is paleo? The person who makes a dogmatic claim about that definition is 1) A liar, and 2) The real dubious nature of Paleo.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 14, 2011
at 09:55 AM

"Paleo" indeed. For me, that's the beauty of it. Vast and diverse.

4
9e7039b63b656582f66d84c5255b436d

(1132)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:37 PM

I might get in trouble here for this, but I'm not big on running round on concrete surfaces barefoot. I think the whole barefoot running thing is great, but just not in the city.

4
Medium avatar

on March 13, 2011
at 07:29 PM

I've never bought into:

ZC
VLC
100% raw
X # of carbs per day no matter what you do that day
Vegetables are worthless / let's take high dose magnesium every day
Fasting of any kind beyond what occurs during sleep
Fish oil
Not only reenactment, but reenactment based on false assumption of what paleo people/HGs did
There's no amount of fat you can eat that will get stored in adipocytes
Hero worship of various paleo luminaries

As far as Harris goes, I don't understand why he's trying to rewrite history as though he didn't spawn a good portion of the ZC movement. When I first read his blog a while back I hit several posts that essentially advocated human carnivory and stopped reading it at that point. He should just take responsibility, admit that it was a miscalculation and move forward. Certainly those who took his cue without skepticism are responsible, but he acts now like he wasn't advocating it.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 14, 2011
at 10:49 AM

he goes on to say " I suspect anything from 0-30% carbs will work fine (for health) for most people. If you want to go beyond that to Kitavan levels with Yams or white rice, I doubt if that is as healthy, but that might be OK, too if you have extirpated the neolithic agents." so it seems really really odd to me that you would pick this post out as your evidence that he spawned the zero carb/vlc carb movement in paleo.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:16 PM

Definitely this one: http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/5/18/there-are-no-essential-carbohydrates-even-for-athletes.html

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:45 PM

PFW, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. When I see someone say, "There are no essential carbohydrates," my takeaway is that I can eat a diet 100% free of carbs (VLC, in other words) and be healthy. KGH is frequently misinterpreted. Maybe it's us, or maybe it's his writing style.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:19 AM

KGH had nothing to do with spawning the zero carb movement. That was a totally independent phenomenon probably precipitated by Owsley Stanley (the Bear) and then pushed into the digital age thanks to Charles Washington's advocacy of ZC on one of the main low carb forums (which he then took to his own forum). This all happened well before Kurt Harris was anyone in the paleosphere. He was denouncing them as the "zero carb hezbollah" in Sept 2009 (3 months after he started panu.com). So yeah. No idea where you got that one from, but it's simply not true.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 14, 2011
at 10:42 AM

@Lacey "I have so far avoided doing this is to emphasize that PaNu is about avoidance of the neolithic agents of disease that are outside our evolutionary experience, and not about meal plans, "blocks", counting, or measuring. It is not about exact macronutrient ratios and it's definitely not about supplementation or medicalizing your diet." in the post you reference, this is what he writes even before he gets to anything else. this has been the overarching views of all his writings- the fact that elimination of the neolithic agents of disease followed by food quaility are the backbone of panu

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Actually, come to think of it, I can't think of a single post where he "advocates human carnivory". Can you find an example?

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on March 14, 2011
at 02:47 PM

You *can* eat a diet free of carbohydrates and be healthy; it's a true statement and one every low-carber is familiar with. But there's a world of difference between enumerating possible courses of action and *advocating* a course of action. What you're doing is looking for a single quote or blog post which supports the advocacy narrative, a tactic which is only convincing if you ignore pretty much everything else KGH ever wrote AND completely misinterpret the intent of the quote you find. That's neither honest nor accurate.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:40 PM

totally agree...

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:43 AM

Probably this one: http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/11/13/what-i-eat.html (see paragraph beginning with "I eat about 5 % of calories as carbohydrate right now..." and his famous "I'm so bored with the Kitivans" post.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on March 15, 2011
at 12:43 AM

May as well admit that though you didn't intend to do so, you did inadvertently spawn a "good portion" of the zero carb movement, as I said. I see ZC'ers parrot your line about there being nothing essential or magic about plants all the time. I never stated that you spawned all of it or even that you yourself are or even were ZC. Reading comprehension, heh, that's a good one. I find the childish petulance of your recent blogpost to be, well, interesting. Don't backpedal too hard, good friend, it may turn into chronic cardio.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 14, 2011
at 02:40 PM

@Lacey but are there "essential carbs"? could a person thrive eating nose to tail? i'm not a zero carber or vlc'er by any means but i've done it before and have had amazing health while doing it. Him making the argument that no carbs are essential isn't advocating low carb, especially when he's repeatedly stated similar statements to the aforementioned ones. your takeaway from it doesn't make his writing's intent or others takeaway from it so.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:30 PM

Quoth the article: "Add a moderate carb load and some GU bars if its a long race, and you will be faster than you were before." Also, commenting that carbohydrates are unnecessary is a response to the "you need carbs or you die!" meme rather than an endorsement of human pure carnivorism. Again, simply reading more than one article quickly disabuses one of the notion that KGH advocates ZC.

Ba686a7b91a9c04f18170dd4ac762968

on March 14, 2011
at 03:52 PM

Travis once again proves his poor reading comprehension, as does any other idiot who thinks I "spawned" zero carb. Read "Raw Paleo and Zero Carb", written specifically to call out the idiocy of thinking carbs are poison. And VLC is VLC, it is not zero carb. as far as: "When I see someone say, "There are no essential carbohydrates," my takeaway is that I can eat a diet 100% free of carbs" You would need to misunderstand the meaning of the word essential in a dietary context to leap that chasm. I guess reading blogs is just too dangerous for some people.

Ba686a7b91a9c04f18170dd4ac762968

on March 15, 2011
at 02:04 AM

I am responsible for people that misquote me? You're an ass, Culp. People like you have ruined this forum. I had never even heard of you until you called me a pedophile. Try saying it to my face. I am definitely not your good friend.

9cfa1ab909f6f89544be665d4ef6e3ea

on March 15, 2011
at 09:26 AM

I recall that Humbert Humbert comment. I also recall thinking it said far more about the commenter than the person being commented on.

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on March 16, 2011
at 10:26 AM

It is very easy for people to take things out of context, especially when you have volumes of scholarship to aim at, and which for one, I am most grateful to Dr. Harris for. His knowledge and Forum has enducated me, and although I do not understand all the scientific explanations he uses to support his assertions, he has undoubtedly put me on the right road to good health. I am sure that I am not alone in saying this. Thank you Dr. Harris.

4
16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 13, 2011
at 02:52 PM

The diatribe against certain workouts as "chronic cardio" is pretty dubious considering that nobody has defined with precision with chronic cardio is. In fact, the field of exercise phyisiology is so in its infancy that I'm not even sold on the idea that marathons are damaging to the body, although the two sides in the debate currently raging over at Chris Kresser's blog seem to think the issue has been decided with certainty. (Not that I have any interest in running one.)

The one thing I've taken away from the Paleo movement is to check all of the research data myself before deciding to adopt a certain way of eating or exercising and not take anyone's word for it, no matter how respected they are or how many credentials they have. I've seen too much advice change 180 degrees in the past six months that I've been Paleo to take anybody's word for anything anymore.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:17 PM

Look at what just occured about the ACCORD TRIAL. ACCORD showed that type two diabetics lives are cut short by 6 yrs......even showed that the treatment group had higher mortality despite 'improved' lower HgbA1c lab measurements and 'better' blood glucoses with pharmaceuticals! This is h...orrible news for docs and patients. It means that you must never become a diabetic period. Because even with the best medical treatment and best drugs out there you will still have a shortened life. Why? Your mitochondria are not working well and very leaky. The rust faster. And you die sooner!

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 13, 2011
at 03:02 PM

Yeah, but those confounding factors. Most long distance runners I know eat a diet heavy on the white flour and fructose (carb loading and all that). I understand that one of the studies that Dr. Harris quoted on Kresser's blog controlled for factors like smoking, but I didn't see any discussion of whether any of the subjects were eating a paleo diet.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:39 PM

I dont think Kurt know what optimal is. He is doing his own emperic work. Cardiologist are looking at runners because their death RATES are much higher than one would expectfrom their physical shape. Once you marry that with a high carb diet and the fact they are engaging in activities that generate inflammation it will make scientist look. And cardiology is looking. Its good news because the results will destroy the lipid hypothesis and likely point the gun at refined and whole grain carbs eventually

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on March 13, 2011
at 02:57 PM

I agree that the chronic cardio threshold has not been determined. But I definitely think marathons would qualify. There have been studies showing damage to the heart with that level of exercise. Also, lower bone density is common among long distance runners, as is amenorrhea among women. None of these are trivial things.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 06:48 PM

the answer is going to be found at the first cytochrome in the mitochndria. We already know that marathon runners have much higher ROS there and they also die of heart disease too often because their so called "stable plaques burst die to short burst inflammation. See Jimm Fixx and Bill Scroeder. The Cardiology meeting in atlanta in 2009 had a study done between marathoners and type 2 DM and cardiac events over 4yrs. Marothoners had higher events because they ate high carb diets and exercised. The type two DM ate bad diets but did no exercise. Running is not good long term. Sprints are.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:18 PM

This is the big circle of life. If you change your diet you can increase your life and reverse type two diabetes. Paleo dieting improves mitochondrial energy production and life. But it requires you to have a doc who gets it and a patient who buys in to the paleolithic way of eating.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:52 PM

I agree that it's good news that cardiologists are finally looking.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on March 13, 2011
at 03:49 PM

But don't most people eat a diet heavy on white flour and fructose? Also, I fail to see how that would induce amenorrhea. It seems that running is the more likely culprit.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:18 PM

Here is the most interesting thing however.....While the drugs uses in the ACCORD trial were epic failures for patients and docs.......We have another trial done by a UCSF nephrologist that shows her diet reverse many of the effects quickly.... Guess what kind of diet it was? PALEOLITHIC!!!! Here is the link. Frassetto LA, Morris RC, Jr, Sebastian A. Long-term persistence of the ... a Paleolithic-hunter-gatherer-type diet. EJCN 63(8):947-55, 2009

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on March 13, 2011
at 07:21 PM

"Running is not good long term." OK, but there's a pretty long continuum between running and marathons. At one end you have the "runner" like me who trail runs, varies speed, hops over rocks, maintains a slow pace (over 10 min. mile usually). In the middle, Dr. Harris runs 10-15km per week and doesn't consider it chronic cardio (he says 10-15km per DAY would be CC). At the top end you have marathoners running 26 miles balls to wall full speed under 6 min. mile. Probably the latter is unhealthy, but I don't see enough evidence to make me switch to sprints exclusively.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 09:21 PM

Change is a coming. This paleo community does not see what I see because your down stream.....youre the grass roots. But I promise you docs are starting to question a lot. You the grass roots must help them become the change you want them to be to really help you and mankind. Buy them and book. Ask for the last appt of their day and tell them what you did and how you did it. Tell them how many others their are. Point them to resources they can read. Tell them their are other docs who do this. Even I found this place because a patient said I should come because I practice this way.

2
Af2ad65226384cedd4f5f08825a75b5d

(665)

on March 13, 2011
at 01:46 PM

I agree with your three answers, but I'd broaden the third answer to include those strictly anti-starch and the VLC diehards who believe anytime they eat carbs they gain weight (they may but its not bad weight - glycogen restoration and its requisite bonded water).

By strict anti-starch, I mostly mean those who are so freakishly afraid of starch since it spikes insulin, the hormone harbinger of destruction. As explored in detail in the Perfect Health Diet and many other blogs, protein generates an insulin response and insulin is beneficial for certain processes in the body. In fact Mark Sisson quotes a study which described the insulin index, " High protein, virtually no-carb foods like meat and eggs, while low on the glycemic index, measured high on the insulin index. In other words, while the meat and eggs didn???t cause a spike in blood sugar the way most carbohydrates do, they did result in an unexpectedly significant rise in insulin." Of course protein sources also stimulate a release of glucagon (an insulin antagonist hormone), the insulin will help properly shuttle the amino acids into muscle cells. I agree you don't want chronically elevated insulin, but having an insulin spike post workout or once a day / in a while is not going to kill you and actually will be helpful - especially if it is consumed with glucagon promoting protein.

Also, the VLC diehards who are so staunchly low carb that they believe that if they eat any significant source of carbs i.e. anything over 50 grams - say they eat a sweet potato one day or too many carrots + other veg, they gain weight. Yes, they gain weight, but its water and glycogen weight given that you were in a glycogen depleted state and 1 gram of glycogen is stored with 4 grams of water. Weight isn't the best measure of health by itself, its important to factor in lean to body fat mass.

This is not to say there is anything wrong with Zero carb eating (though the folks at Perfect Health Diet discourage it due to potential issues), VLC eating, or starch avoidance. All can potentially be healthy ways for people to improve and manage their health, but a fervent view that their way is the ONLY or best way for everyone what can make those paleos dubious.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 13, 2011
at 08:44 PM

This however can be tested. I dont think Jaminet or Sisson realize that while taken alone the foods do cause insulin release.....it is very short lived and when one eats this way chronically insulin levels drop dramatically when we test for it post prandially and fasting. We test for it all the time. The most interesting thing is when you eat a protein diet that has too many carbs for the liver of the host the spike is exponential. It goes up higher than one would expect. So the key once again is context. Protein married to fat is not the same as protein with carbs......it matters.

0
669790861549f3c6d54d88a65296ed19

(452)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:17 AM

Thank you for your comments.

Stabby,I'm not taking magnesium (yet) since I'm awaiting the results of my magnesium levels in my blood. You are right,that is where the entire problem lies,loving my body/me unconditionally and not care about society anymore. Problem's that I've never felt like a beautiful female,bc I always had this big belly and relatively skinny arms and lower legs and a flat ass with little boobs. So I've never enjoyed shopping or dressing nicely,bc nothing would fit well seeing my body-composure.The crux is that now,I loathe the thought of shopping 4clothes,just bc I dont know what my natural body weight/comp will be like.I fear I constyantly'll keep gaining,bc I'll eat a small plate in front of me just as well as I can eat a massive plate.I don't know if it's bc I'm underweight or my satiety-meter is broken or my own unrest. I love smoked fatty fish like mackerel and eel and regular herring,but if I eat it everyday I'll probably gain in no time!It's just that,no offense, a lot of the Paleo movement is even more obsessed and judgemental with body image&exercise.

Joshua I do eat leafy greens,but there's only so much spinach and kale one can have before getting bored of it. I've even become frightened of eating too much beets&carrots and eating pumpkin,let alone fruit! I use coconut oil to cook,bc I can't handle cowdairy,though I love and can handle sheep cheese. (Though I'm afraid it's also a triggering food 4 me,bc I love cheese)

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on March 14, 2011
at 02:44 PM

Joey This discussion/question looks like it should be in a separate thread of it's own rather than in this one on "dubious" part of the paleo movement. Could you post it separately? I'm sure you would get more responses that way.

0
669790861549f3c6d54d88a65296ed19

(452)

on March 13, 2011
at 10:00 PM

A lot of things mentioned above scared me and increased my "issues" even more, like low-carb (not exactly sure what is meant by that),fruits,no dairy,excruciating exercising/CF,IF.

Could some of you please help me out of my hell? My story in short; I'm a Dutch girl/woman (28) who's been overweight from childhood.I've played some teamsports during highschool,mostly one or 2 times per week. When I was 19 I all of a sudden suffered symptoms of paralysion which the docs thought to be a mild form of MS(which now turned out to be Lyme's disease),over time the symptoms faded. During that period and years after I gained even more weight while living my life,so a couple of years ago I decided to enroll in a gym and start Cardio 3x times a week to lose weight,because I never loved myself/thought of myself as pretty or a special person. After hitting a 'plateau' I became even more critical of what I ate and increased the exercises,until it dwindled into this obsessive-compulsive 5/6days a week thing,that I never enjoyed but out of fear of getting 'fat'(it really was bellyfat,the rest was slender.Which gave me an even worse figure) again. Things escalated and I ended up at a dietician,who 'tought me' how much carbs&proteine,little fat a day I needed for the body to burn it's own fat without having to exercise. I lost weight,but I started to experience these weird symptoms also after eating,like bloating/tiredness/blurry-vision/feeling like I'd pass out. Turned out my Lyme kicked in,very bad gut flora,acidic pancreas and almost diabetic. Now I'm on Paleo and underweight,I've lost my boobs and you can count my ribs,so I need to gain some weight.

This makes me very nervous,I've lived my life on the low-fat products and with the vigorous exercise which I've never enjoyed and can't do anymore bc I feel such resistance towards it and my knees hurt like hell. Although I rationally know the low-fat products were bad,I still experience a lot of obsessive mental issues&anxieties towards the amounts of fat that I'll get huge (fat stomach) on Paleo without exercising,mainly bc I don't experience 'belly hunger' (growling stomach) bc of the bad gut flora,so I never know when I'm hungry. I try to walk 45min. to an hour everyday,but still I'm afraid to sit still and do what I love. All these Paleo-people talking about the low-carb,fruits,IF,CF,The Paleo-lifestyle etc. made my anxiety even worse....I'm now scared of amounts of fat,fruits and certain veggies (like beets,carrots,pumpkin...let alone sweet potatoe!),coconut milk and dairy (though I love sheep's and goat cheese,which are high in fat too,which scares me). I'm caught in such a horrible thinking pattern (reading the Power of Now. Isn't helping me (yet)),in my mind I'm always calculating everything. Most people start to feel not only physically,but also mentally better on Paleo,whereas I seem to get in an even bigger depression. Most of the time I just don't know what to eat anymore it's all too big of a hassle,out of lethargy and boredom/lack of recipes/ingedients due to intolerances(like nightshades) and I'm starting to really miss all the 'bad' stuff like pizza,wafels,cake,breads etc.,bc if I'm in my mind getting fat anyway who cares what it is from....might as well have the temporary false illusion of joy my brains crave so much.and feel like a 'normal' part of society again. Apart from beef and eggs,grass-fed is impossible for me to get,though I buy biological meat...it's also very expensive and I'm struggling to pay the bills every month bc I'm currently not able to work.

I'm going to seek the help of a therapist (but I don't want antidepressants,although my family is trying to force me to take some) bc I don't want to be stuck in this thinking pattern anymore. If I'm ever gonna exercise again I do not want it to be connected to estatic image anymore or obsessive compulsiveness/fear,but bc I WANt TO/Love doing it. (Probably gonna be a teamsport,though it's kinda daunting to enter a team(sport) at this age). Once in a while I'd like to be able to indulge in stuff,without feeling guilty or getting bad thoughts or whatever. I just wanna be happy&healthy and get over the fear of living my life and letting myself do and enjoy what I want to do. The fat is probably prone to go to my belly,instead of my upper body(where it needs to go),bc my own 'mental anxiety' is probably keeping cortisol levels high.

Are there people who can maybe help me get out of this pattern/ease my mind a bit? who don't exercise either/constantly walking/active during the day?who have health conditions too or maybe experienced something similar?

I'd also love to get to know some Dutch Paleo/PaNu people.

669790861549f3c6d54d88a65296ed19

(452)

on March 14, 2011
at 01:58 PM

Dexter,thank you 4 the link,but it seems Tom is also an average exerciser. And yes,I'm taking Vit.D3 drops. I'm looking for people who don't exercise,I've seen one guy, at MDA,DFH (Diet for Humans) who doesn't work-out.I'd like to contact him,but can't seem to on his site.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on March 14, 2011
at 03:44 AM

There is Tom who live in Amsterdam that posts here. This is his profile. He has a website where you can leave an email address: http://paleohacks.com/users/2672/tom#axzz1GXbSlmfk Do not forget to supplement with Vit D3. It works wonders on your mood and on your absorption of foods.

246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21430)

on March 14, 2011
at 12:05 AM

The best part about Paleo is not stressing over these things. The basics are... "embrace the quality, ignore the quantity, and get healthy". The basics as I suggest are: Eat grassfed, fattier meats, simply prepared and minimally seasoned. Eat green, leafy veggies. Eat potatoes/sweet potatoes ONLY if they are well tolerated. Eat organic/raw dairy if it is well tolerated (because of your gut flora issues, I would recommend against this at first). Do not eat grain-based foods, do not eat bean/legume based foods. Period.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on March 13, 2011
at 10:30 PM

Whoa, I'm hard-pressed to say anything definitive but I don't think that anyone around here is going to dispute that you should probably just start with nourishing and loving your body. You sound like you need more magnesium, do you supplement with it? 500mg of magnesium (not the oxide form, citrate is better) works wonders for psychological issues. Then the rest of nutrition is important too. You may not be the best candidate for obsessive Fitdaying but try to get a lot of nutrients. And eating fat helps. Many hormones are primarily made out of fat and your brain is largely fat. ;)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 05, 2011
at 11:27 PM

It would probably be helpful for you to make sure to eat more Omega 3's.

-2
0fb8b3d6dcfb279b0f7e050d2d22510f

(4645)

on March 20, 2011
at 12:17 AM

I hate the caveman image

btw- bashing vegetarians is a-okay in my book. They get an easy pass for being aholes and need to be knopcked off the pedestal as often as possibel but please know ytour facts before you attack.

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