9

votes

"Vegan paleo". Evaluate my diet please?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created September 09, 2012 at 7:58 PM

Hi all. I would describe myself as "paleo vegan". Having read a fair amount of both vegan and paleo literature, I think that there is solid evidence that a paleo diet which incorporates some meat is optimal for human health and digestion. However I will not compromise my vegan diet. I have been vegan for 7 years now (vegetarian for 11). My diet is free of meat, dairy, gluten and soy.

My reasons for being vegan are primarily psychological and partly ethical. I have OCD and a "purity" complex and I just can't eat meat without feeling disgusted that there is "rotting flesh" inside me. (I accept that this may be irrational, but I can't really help it). I have the same attitude towards dairy and eggs. As for ethical qualms, I have come to the conclusion that animals most likely do not have the capacy to value life in the same way as humans do, but that said they still suffer and feel physical pain. Hence, I am against factory farming but not against hunting nor "humane" farming. Anyway, this post isn't about the ethics of meat-eating.

My diet primarily consists of: - Fruits (in the morning / first half of the day) - Vegetables (both raw and cooked) - Potatoes (sweet and white) - Nuts (sparingly, in salads for a main course and never on the same day as potatoes).

I've omitted things which I use sparingly or occasionally, like olive oil, raw food bars, etc. Also wine (when I socialise). As a rule, I just try to stay gluten free and vegan, and have at least 50% of my calories coming from raw frutis and veg.

Is this a good diet? I am not aiming to lose some weight, just maintain good health. Helpful comments would be appreciated. I'd remind that I have been civil in this post so I will not appreciate condescending vegan-bashing at all. I will answer any further questions. Thanks!

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Thanks very much. I'll make a point to buy some mushrooms next time I go grocery shopping. Do you think nuts and nut butters are sufficient to get protein? And if so, how much per day?

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on May 20, 2013
at 02:21 PM

My diet has changed radically since I posted this thread but thank you for the link nonetheless. I think the concept of paleo v*ganism needs to be given more of a platform within the paleo community. The fact is that some people will not eat meat and there can be any number of reasons for this. Treating paleo as some kind of ideology is useless. Intellectual honesty rather than hostility is needed to provide people with the information and resources to make the best health choices they can according to their own personal context.

8a0747cdcef6cb22ab8f7233bb55aa9c

(139)

on May 20, 2013
at 01:08 PM

Don't see much judging here. Just people trying to be helpful. Who is this comment aimed at?

Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 09, 2013
at 11:04 PM

hmmm....my diabetes didn't result from overeating oysters....

74786bbe8254844304a33943290c4d6d

(1663)

on January 05, 2013
at 11:09 PM

Coconuts are miraculous! Enjoy 'em!

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on January 03, 2013
at 10:23 AM

I'm afraid butter grosses me out too! Still have to get around to trying fermented foods.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on January 03, 2013
at 10:19 AM

Cool story, bro. How about a sequel?

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on January 03, 2013
at 10:19 AM

Thanks for the reply. Since posting this, I've been trying to incorporating more healthy fats into my diet. I've discovered the wonders of coconut oil!

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on January 03, 2013
at 10:16 AM

Thanks a lot for your help. Most days I meet or exceed all my RDA nutrients/vitamins/minerals, with the exception of zero B12 and vitamin D, and also deficient zinc and iron. I understand that the cronometer profile does not give a complete account of these nutrients, though (for example Denise Minger said it doesn't distinguish between K1 and K2, the latter of which is missing from vegan diets). Since writing this post and learning more about paleo, I've been making a point to consume my greens and other veggies with a fat source for better absorption. Also trying to cut down on PUFAs.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 03, 2013
at 07:55 AM

You won't die if you don't ever eat vitamin D, thanks to a bright thing in the sky called the sun. Food is a pretty insignificant source of naturally occurring vitamin D anyway.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 03, 2013
at 07:54 AM

You won't not die if you don't ever eat vitamin D, thanks to a bright thing in the sky called the sun. Food is a pretty insignificant source of naturally occurring vitamin D anyway.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 02, 2013
at 07:41 PM

This answer was not helpful. And so I shall downvote you!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 23, 2012
at 04:35 PM

Chris - You need to learn to read. The statement was "You are a fool for not getting psychiatric help, knowing you are being OCD and not dealing with it " This says not that people with OCD are fools but that those who have the disorder, know they have it, and choose to live with it and not seek treatment are being fools. There is a difference, but hey, reading woudln't let you feel morally superior to people. Thanks for the -1 btw. What a tool.

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on October 22, 2012
at 11:46 AM

Re: corn on the cob, you might do better with masa-based corn (tortillas, etc.) Such corn is "nixtamalized," a process of treating corn with lime (mineral, not the fruit). Such processing makes nutrients in corn more bioavailable, niacin in particular, which is otherwise not readily absorbed from unprocessed corn. Hominy is also treated this way. "New World" indigenous people developed this technique, and survived quite nicely on such corn along with beans, squashes, peppers, nuts, seeds, etc., no dairy or rendered/processed fats, and only occasional small game and fish, for millennia.

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on October 22, 2012
at 11:25 AM

"You are a fool for not getting psychiatric help...." I'd just point out he disconnect inherent in this statement. If you truly believe mental illness is present and psychiatric help is needed, then labeling one who needs it a "fool" seems pretty rude. Mentally ill people aren't fools, that sounds like something from the dark ages.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on October 03, 2012
at 02:09 AM

All mushrooms should be cooked to deactivate the small amount of toxin in them, even the button ones at the grocery. I've made whole meals of mushrooms, dandelion greens, and kale sauteed in coconut oil, and served on a baked potato.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on October 03, 2012
at 02:04 AM

Oysters and mussels FTW!

8634d4988ced45a68e2a79e69cc01835

(1617)

on September 24, 2012
at 03:52 PM

In the long run, no, this diet is not good. You can get away with it for a while, but it will catch up with you. I'm still trying to heal my body and digestion from 16 years of vegetarianism. It looks like your first step is dealing with the OCD and how it relates to food. Then you can tackle your diet. Once you're getting better nutrition, it will in turn help the OCD. I promise.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 13, 2012
at 11:57 PM

Unless your metabolism is broken the increased fat should make the meals more satiating and you should naturally compensate by eating less of other things.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 13, 2012
at 11:56 PM

@Canis +1 for putting the period inside the quotes.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on September 13, 2012
at 07:28 PM

If you are not ready to change, you are not ready to improve. (I mean that in a constructive way, not snarky). I don't doubt that it would be really hard for you to change under these circumstances, and it won't be quick, but I think that just by being here and asking these questions, the rational side of your mind knows that change is needed. It just has to convince the irrational meat-hating side. :) I agree with Mathgirl that you should seek out some mental health support, and if you can't afford therapy right now, at least maybe some books on overcoming OCD? Best of luck, Pecan!

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 13, 2012
at 09:28 AM

Thanks, teacher.

Bd614f091f0625dea86bad5791471f2d

(775)

on September 12, 2012
at 05:05 PM

I wouldn't choose palm oil because the industry is corrupt, brutally killing orangutans, exploiting workers, and ruining the lives of hunter-gatherers: http://keentalks.com/borneo-paradise-under-siege/ http://www.survivalinternational.org/tribes/penan

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 12, 2012
at 12:39 AM

I think that eating at least moderate-fat is important. But as Erik said, you'd have to decrease something else if you increase fat aiming to lose. What do you do for exercise? Make sure you're eating enough if you exercise vigorously on a regular basis. I was thinking of this earlier and forgot to mention it, but you might be interested in the Go Kaleo website. The author is, I believe, following a plant-based diet that doesn't involve most grains. (She has lost a lot of weight and writes about health and fitness.)

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 11, 2012
at 10:24 PM

Yay! *group hug*

B6114a1980b1481fb18206064f3f4a4f

(3924)

on September 11, 2012
at 07:28 PM

I agree. It was a thoughtfully asked question and most people are answering it in a helpful, thoughtful way.

B6114a1980b1481fb18206064f3f4a4f

(3924)

on September 11, 2012
at 07:23 PM

I live in the midwest so summer would not be complete without at least a little organic corn on the cob. I personally don't eat much because carbs are not my friend and I do best grain-free, but I let my sons eat their fill during the month or two it's in season - especially since we drown it in organic grassfed butter.

0382fa263de4c83328dc34a56e25437f

(4238)

on September 11, 2012
at 07:04 PM

For the record, it's "deep-seated."

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on September 11, 2012
at 06:47 PM

Regarding the unsettling and uncomfortable idea of animal flesh rotting inside you, please check out this informative post: http://www.gnolls.org/1444/does-meat-rot-in-your-colon-no-what-does-beans-grains-and-vegetables/

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on September 11, 2012
at 06:41 PM

Agreed, Mike. There's a possibility the OCD is a result of fatty acid deficiencies/imbalances. Lots of psychological/psychiatric conditions can be linked to nutritional imbalances, especially in a long-time vegan.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 11, 2012
at 07:41 AM

Hey now, we're not all hippies! What do you eat on your vegan days? Do you think there are benefits to taking a break from meat? Or going on fruit fasts?

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 11, 2012
at 07:39 AM

Thanks very much for your input and the link. I forgot to mention in my OP that I do eat peas, every couple of days with my potatoes or on their own. I avoid beans because I've read they're not paleo, but I agree with you that they're much a better option than grains so I will eat them if I'ms stuck. What do you think of organic corn on the cob?

47edf681280750c3712a3a56f2eae33b

on September 11, 2012
at 06:56 AM

I like the term Paleo-Vegan. I have my paleo-vegan days, my paleo-vegan dishes. It is a nice alternative to the meat I'm consuming and just a construct to cook with, especially when I'm up in the hippie commune, but that's another story...

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on September 11, 2012
at 02:55 AM

And maybe a few steaks per week.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 10, 2012
at 05:43 PM

I have no idea about the nutrition of cooked versus raw mushrooms, but I find, personally, that they're much easier to digest either marinated or cooked.

98266ae0c87836d4bb714b6d31cacbf9

(1632)

on September 10, 2012
at 04:46 PM

There is no hurry. Take it step by step. I would recommend for now switching from vegan to vegetarian. Incorporate dairy at least and then move on to eggs and so on. Baby steps :)

26e2364f7966432bbf8acfe930583674

(460)

on September 10, 2012
at 04:23 PM

You'll need to reduce your intake of one of the other macronutrients if you increase you intake of fat and want to keep your caloric intake fairly consistent. Given the concern about getting enough protein others have voiced previously, I'd say reducing carbohydrate intake would be the better path to take. That being said, depending upon your stature and the composition and frequency of your regular exercise, an increase in energy intake could be beneficial in your quest to lose those 10 lbs. if you are presently under-consuming energy and your metabolism is adjusting to preserve fat reserves

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 10, 2012
at 03:39 PM

No, I have acknowledged it as deep-seeded because there is abundant evidence pointing to that fact and I believe, just like with most core personality traits, that it can be changed with the right environmental influences ;)

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 10, 2012
at 03:34 PM

Do you think mushrooms are more nutritious cooked or raw? I'm sitting down to a plate of baked sweet potato, baked mushrooms and salad atm. Yumm!

98266ae0c87836d4bb714b6d31cacbf9

(1632)

on September 10, 2012
at 03:21 PM

You have accepted it as "deep-seeded." This way nothing is going to change.

937025faf9308f14438817d5cc09ee3d

(90)

on September 10, 2012
at 12:34 PM

might work for weight loss but not without sacrificing precious muscle-mass.

93eea7754e6e94b6085dbabbb48c0bb7

on September 10, 2012
at 12:23 PM

I almost eat this way instead I eat meat (about 5-6 oz) once a day. I'd eat way more fats- I eat coconut and avocado a lot.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 10, 2012
at 10:18 AM

@Matt- Thanks! I wasn't sure.

1d0497f8781845ab371b479455bfee8e

(11157)

on September 10, 2012
at 01:58 AM

http://paleohacks.com/questions/126974/study-vegetarianism-correlated-with-higher-incidence-of-mental-illness#axzz25vVEbaOx

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 10, 2012
at 01:55 AM

I wouldn't go as far as to call these mental illnesses, but rather just a severe disconnect between human and food.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 10, 2012
at 01:52 AM

@blueballon, inorganic sulfur (elemental sulfur, sulfides, sulfites, sulfates, etc...) doesn't appear to have roles in human amino acid synthesis. Sulfides (as found in kala namak) are generally toxic anyway, though perhaps low doses are therapeutic (a la hot springs).

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 10, 2012
at 01:47 AM

Not sure what the mechanism for that is, Stabby. Interesting nevertheless!

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 10, 2012
at 01:23 AM

Question about sulfur-- How about black salt (kala namak) for sulfur? I'm not sure how *much* sulfur it contains, but by smelling it there seems to be a fair amount. Would using that occasionally in cooking allow for adequate sulfur consumption?

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 10, 2012
at 12:51 AM

eh, I was just assuming that you could make cysteine with it because just taking it increases glutathione levels ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21899544 That might not be the case, though. Like I said, it's still probably not a good idea to be deficient in cysteine from the diet.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 10, 2012
at 12:50 AM

eh, I was just assuming that you could make cysteine with it because just taking increases glutathione levels http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21899544 That might not be the case, but it seemed to make sense, heh.

F9638b939a6f85d67f60065677193cad

(4266)

on September 10, 2012
at 12:02 AM

Any diet that coddles and supports mental illness (OCD, purity complex, irrational belief there is rotting meat inside you) is not healthy.

1d0497f8781845ab371b479455bfee8e

(11157)

on September 09, 2012
at 11:57 PM

What do you have against eggs and dairy?

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 09, 2012
at 11:54 PM

Got a link for MSM use in human biochemical pathways? I've not seen how it is used to form sulfurous amino acids.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:49 PM

For some info on lentil preparation: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/05/real-food-vii-lentils.html

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:48 PM

One issue with nut protein is that it's usually an incomplete protein and you may come up short on several specific amino acids, including methionine and lysine. You can add brazil nuts and sesame seeds for methionine though. Beyond that, it's hard to say without considering the type of nuts you're eating. Still, it's difficult to get enough total protein from nuts. I think you need an additional source of protein from food, since fruits tend to have little. Properly prepared lentils, for example, are a good source of protein (and they have plenty of lysine).

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:48 PM

One issue with nut protein is that it's usually an incomplete protein and you may come up short on several specific amino acids, including methionine and lysine. You can add brazil nuts and sesame seeds for methionine though. Beyond that, it's hard to say without considering the type of nuts you're eating. Beyond that, it's difficult to get enough total protein from nuts. I think you need an additional source of protein from food, since fruits tend to have little. Properly prepared lentils, for example, are a good source of protein (and they have plenty of lysine).

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:33 PM

I think it depends on the person with nut tolerance, etc. What you might want to do (assuming, say, 15% protein for a day) is plug what you've eaten into nutritiondata.com and see how you stand. It's not perfect, but doing that can also help you figure out if you have any glaring nutrient deficiencies.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:23 PM

Well sure, I only use the term in a loose sense to describe my dietary habits. There is no need to be pedantic.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:21 PM

Sorry Renee. MathGirl, it is deep-seeded however it's not the worst problem one can have. OCD runs in my family, it's just a part of my personality which I am gradually getting better at managing. It may be good to hire a therapist for that end, but I have neither the time nor the money to do that right now. Thank you for your input.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:17 PM

Thanks so much, this is an extremely helpful and interesting post. I'm about to have a google-a-thon of some of the info you mentioned :)

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:59 PM

Good point, Matt. On second thought I wouldn't rely on that for sulfur. We can use methylsulfonylmethane, which isn't an amino acid, and we can make cysteine from it with other amino acids. But getting enough sulfur-containing amino acids is important.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:57 PM

Thanks very much for the food suggestions, that’s exactly what I was looking for. I'm a bit wary about taking isolates which aren't whole foods, though?. The reductio ad absurdum argument you offer actually does not contradict my reasons for ethical veganism, if you’d care to read my post again (I'm not against eating meat *per se*, just factory farming). I get about 1500-2000 cals a day. No idea how much fructose I consume, I generally eat a lot of fruit for breakfast and lunch. I am a self-condident and happy person, I just wouldn't mind being 10lbs lighter. It's not an obsession or anythin

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:43 PM

I, too, think cooked mushrooms would be extremely helpful.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:42 PM

+1 for a thoughtful response. I agree with being careful of getting enough protein being GF and soy-free. You may find that soaked/sprouted lentils would work for you. Good resources for preparing pulses (and legumes if you want them) include most of the traditional foods groups like the Weston A Price foundation. I also agree with adding more fats--avocados/coconut/olive oil are all good. Make sure, also, that you get enough vit D along with the B12.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:38 PM

A good place to start may be a mental health professional. Something so "deep-seeded" needs to be fleshed out. Meat isn't the enemy here; your unhealthy eating is.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:23 PM

Re: Sulfured fruit... as far as I've seen inorganic sulfur doesn't do humans any good. We need sulfur in amino acid form.

98266ae0c87836d4bb714b6d31cacbf9

(1632)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:05 PM

Hey our ancestors were picky!

B1fcaceba952861d0324bdb291edbbe0

(3159)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:57 PM

I highly recommend the book "The Vegetarian Myth", the author was a vegan for 20 years and a vegetarian before that. She too suffered the same moral/ethical dilemma of eating meat, until she decided it was more ethical to eat meat, than avoid it. The suggestion isn't meant to be a jab at your believe system- just a book for the open-minded vegan or vegetarian, which you seem to be. :)

B1fcaceba952861d0324bdb291edbbe0

(3159)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:55 PM

I highly recommend the book "The Vegetarian Myth", the author was a vegan for 20 years and a vegetarian myth. She too suffered the same moral/ethical dilemma of eating meat, until she decided it was more ethical to eat it. The suggestion isn't meant to be a jab at your believe system- just a book for the open-minded vegan or vegetarian, which you seem to be. :)

F92e4ca55291c3f3096a3d4d3d854986

(11698)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:43 PM

Hi Pecan and welcome. If you are responding to someone else's answer, you should post it as a comment to their answer, like I've done here, not as as separate post. Makes it easier for everyone to follow.

Bd614f091f0625dea86bad5791471f2d

(775)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:28 PM

I know that "going vegan" and "adding eggs" doesn't make sense, but I think you get the gist of what I mean.

98266ae0c87836d4bb714b6d31cacbf9

(1632)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:13 PM

" I think that there is solid evidence that a paleo diet which incorporates some meat is optimal for human health and digestion.However I will not compromise my vegan diet. " Please take some time and think this through. I feel like you are being stubborn and unwilling to change. But as they say, To each his own.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:06 PM

Please explain the "never on the same day as potatoes."

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30 Answers

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3
Cfc7dee889a66db9cd76c4f348109294

on September 10, 2012
at 03:11 PM

Seaweeds/kelp, coconut and coconut oil would be good additions. I second the link to http://rawfoodsos.com/for-vegans/ - all recs including the last: consider non sentient bivalves.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on October 03, 2012
at 02:04 AM

Oysters and mussels FTW!

31
32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:28 PM

Soy-free gluten-free vegan is as good as you're going to do, until you can get over the animal product hangup you have. It takes a seriously tiny amount of animal product to complete a vegan diet. A half a dozen oysters monthly would stave off B12 deficiency easily, in a natural whole foods way.

See also Denise Minger's vegan recommendations: http://rawfoodsos.com/for-vegans/

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on September 11, 2012
at 02:55 AM

And maybe a few steaks per week.

28
Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:50 PM

I'll list the potential areas of concern as I see them point by point. They are:

Eating of unhealthy things, essential micronutrients, macronutrient composition and non-essential but important nutrients.

It doesn't sound like you eat anything that is unhealthy, so that's good.

If you haven't already you should use a website like Fitday or a program like Cron O Meter to make sure that you are getting enough of all of the essential micronutrients.

Many people are not good converters of beta carotene to vitamin A and so some vegans may benefit from supplementing with it http://www.nutri-facts.org/News.10+M5631ea278ba.0.html The article says that people just need more beta carotene, but that is dubious if people can't make enough vitamin a from b-carotene. You aren't consuming soy, meat or dairy so you might benefit from more vitamin K2 as well. There is of course vitamin B12 to consider and your diet might be too low in zinc. But I'll let you figure all of that out for yourself.

Your diet appears to be mostly carbohydrates and very little fat. Fat is important, and a diet without enough fat can be detrimental to mental health http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.ca/2012/07/eat-fat-be-happy.html http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.ca/2011/07/fat-and-happy.html You might say that your mental health is fine, I don't know, but many people's moods are better when they eat more fat. It is a bonus in that case.

Protein is also important, especially the sulfur-containing amino acids. A vegan diet tends to be low in these and it can compromise glutathione (important molecule for detoxification and other protective processes) status. I think that people should get at least 15% of their calories as protein for that reason. Pea and hemp protein appear to be viable sources for you. And be sure to get enough sulfur, either from foods (dried fruit often has it as a preservative) or supplements.

There are numerous non-essential but highly useful nutrients that are low in or absent from a vegan diet. You may benefit from creatine supplementation http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.ca/2012/09/turboboost-your-brain-eat-meat.html carnitine supplementation, although you might get by with just a high intake of its precursors http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21753065 http://suppversity.blogspot.ca/2011/07/amino-acids-for-super-humans-part-iv_17.html and carnosine or beta alanine supplementation http://thatpaleoguy.com/2011/02/21/carnosine-colons-and-cancer/

Your diet could also probably use more taurine http://suppversity.blogspot.ca/2010/08/taurine-from-foods-can-i-be-taurine.html

I hope that helps take your diet and health to the next level. Cheers.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 10, 2012
at 01:47 AM

Not sure what the mechanism for that is, Stabby. Interesting nevertheless!

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:42 PM

+1 for a thoughtful response. I agree with being careful of getting enough protein being GF and soy-free. You may find that soaked/sprouted lentils would work for you. Good resources for preparing pulses (and legumes if you want them) include most of the traditional foods groups like the Weston A Price foundation. I also agree with adding more fats--avocados/coconut/olive oil are all good. Make sure, also, that you get enough vit D along with the B12.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 10, 2012
at 12:50 AM

eh, I was just assuming that you could make cysteine with it because just taking increases glutathione levels http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21899544 That might not be the case, but it seemed to make sense, heh.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 10, 2012
at 10:18 AM

@Matt- Thanks! I wasn't sure.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:59 PM

Good point, Matt. On second thought I wouldn't rely on that for sulfur. We can use methylsulfonylmethane, which isn't an amino acid, and we can make cysteine from it with other amino acids. But getting enough sulfur-containing amino acids is important.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 09, 2012
at 11:54 PM

Got a link for MSM use in human biochemical pathways? I've not seen how it is used to form sulfurous amino acids.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 10, 2012
at 01:23 AM

Question about sulfur-- How about black salt (kala namak) for sulfur? I'm not sure how *much* sulfur it contains, but by smelling it there seems to be a fair amount. Would using that occasionally in cooking allow for adequate sulfur consumption?

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:23 PM

Re: Sulfured fruit... as far as I've seen inorganic sulfur doesn't do humans any good. We need sulfur in amino acid form.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:17 PM

Thanks so much, this is an extremely helpful and interesting post. I'm about to have a google-a-thon of some of the info you mentioned :)

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 10, 2012
at 12:51 AM

eh, I was just assuming that you could make cysteine with it because just taking it increases glutathione levels ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21899544 That might not be the case, though. Like I said, it's still probably not a good idea to be deficient in cysteine from the diet.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 10, 2012
at 01:52 AM

@blueballon, inorganic sulfur (elemental sulfur, sulfides, sulfites, sulfates, etc...) doesn't appear to have roles in human amino acid synthesis. Sulfides (as found in kala namak) are generally toxic anyway, though perhaps low doses are therapeutic (a la hot springs).

19
510bdda8988ed0d4b0ec0b738b4edb73

(20888)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:45 PM

To answer your last question: "is this a good diet?". No.

It is better than a gluten, soy overload of frankenfoods that most vegans eat, but it's no where near good enough to meet your goals of losing weight and maintaining good health. But it's probably as good as you're going to get without adding meat.

After reading a bunch of Nora Gegaudus' stuff I bet your OCD and orthorexia might go away or be signifantly diminished if you eat meat and get your brain some nutrients.

937025faf9308f14438817d5cc09ee3d

(90)

on September 10, 2012
at 12:34 PM

might work for weight loss but not without sacrificing precious muscle-mass.

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on September 11, 2012
at 06:41 PM

Agreed, Mike. There's a possibility the OCD is a result of fatty acid deficiencies/imbalances. Lots of psychological/psychiatric conditions can be linked to nutritional imbalances, especially in a long-time vegan.

18
Adb249ff0b1447d86ed308d0265e2b86

on September 09, 2012
at 09:29 PM

Well I'd do it differently. If I had to design a paleo vegan diet it would include:

a good quantity of coconut oil, coconut milk and fresh coconut "meat"

more nuts in general, 100g a day

other fats including avocados, olive oil and red palm oil

pea protein isolate (protein powder) it has an impressive amino acid profile that doesn't look that different from whey

white rice, it has no known toxins, reasonable amounts of protein, is calorie dense and globally keeps a billion people alive

extensive supplementation including vegetarian algal source omega-3's

I think your calories are way too low. Are you actually getting half your calories from fruit and non-starchy vegetables? If so how many grams of fructose are you consuming on a daily basis.

You acknowledge you have OCD, a branch of the anxiety disorders that encourages your veganism; it is feasible that poor nutrition is worsening your OCD and your health choices in a vicious circle. You apparently have no more ability here to make rational choices than does an anorexia sufferer. Ethical reasons for veganism are incredibly weak, even plants eat animals such as the Venus Flytrap and the many other carnivorous plants. Your reasons for being vegan are primarily psychological so you should aspire to develop a structured and rational return to optimal eating.

And you have weight to lose? I am surprised you don't look like David Life after seven years of this. If you are going to stay vegan for now why don't you visit http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/ At least many of them look strong and healthy and they'd encourage you to eat more and build yourself up.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:57 PM

Thanks very much for the food suggestions, that’s exactly what I was looking for. I'm a bit wary about taking isolates which aren't whole foods, though?. The reductio ad absurdum argument you offer actually does not contradict my reasons for ethical veganism, if you’d care to read my post again (I'm not against eating meat *per se*, just factory farming). I get about 1500-2000 cals a day. No idea how much fructose I consume, I generally eat a lot of fruit for breakfast and lunch. I am a self-condident and happy person, I just wouldn't mind being 10lbs lighter. It's not an obsession or anythin

Bd614f091f0625dea86bad5791471f2d

(775)

on September 12, 2012
at 05:05 PM

I wouldn't choose palm oil because the industry is corrupt, brutally killing orangutans, exploiting workers, and ruining the lives of hunter-gatherers: http://keentalks.com/borneo-paradise-under-siege/ http://www.survivalinternational.org/tribes/penan

15
0d892cb232c3c7d59699fd10c995595a

on September 09, 2012
at 08:55 PM

There is no such thing as "paleo-vegan".

47edf681280750c3712a3a56f2eae33b

on September 11, 2012
at 06:56 AM

I like the term Paleo-Vegan. I have my paleo-vegan days, my paleo-vegan dishes. It is a nice alternative to the meat I'm consuming and just a construct to cook with, especially when I'm up in the hippie commune, but that's another story...

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:23 PM

Well sure, I only use the term in a loose sense to describe my dietary habits. There is no need to be pedantic.

98266ae0c87836d4bb714b6d31cacbf9

(1632)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:05 PM

Hey our ancestors were picky!

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 11, 2012
at 07:41 AM

Hey now, we're not all hippies! What do you eat on your vegan days? Do you think there are benefits to taking a break from meat? Or going on fruit fasts?

13
Bd614f091f0625dea86bad5791471f2d

(775)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:27 PM

I love pecans!

Personally, I think you should incorporate more fats, like coconut oil/butter, olive oil, avocados, etc.

I know you said no eggs or dairy, but if I were to go vegan again, I would definitely include eggs. Following a diet with no fat soluble vitamins or b12 is not conducive to good health at all. If you can keep your own chickens or get eggs from a local farm that cares for their chickens properly, it might help with your concerns.

I would also be sure to include fermented veggies every day, like homemade sauerkraut or pickles.

Bd614f091f0625dea86bad5791471f2d

(775)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:28 PM

I know that "going vegan" and "adding eggs" doesn't make sense, but I think you get the gist of what I mean.

12
2a00b9a42e4cb6e489a0e69d20714576

on September 10, 2012
at 04:06 PM

I found being vegan exasperated my ocd, anxiety, stress and mild depression. Please look into incorporating some grassfed meat, wild seafood and pastured egg yolks. Eventually you get over it. Especially after having a really good ribeye, from cows you know had a good life.And coconut oil/butter/milk are essential sources, especially if you are avoiding so many good whole, natural foods. And I totally agree you should not accept this. By doing so it becomes your normal, it was for me. Until I became so desperate that I would do anything to get my health back. (especially mentally).And please don't think this answer is condescending or belittiling your problems. I came from a place of absolute hell.

10
A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:54 PM

I would be most concerned with nutrient deficiencies on your diet. I wrote about nutrients difficult or impossible to acquire without animal products here. Let me touch on a few things.

Vitamin B12 is the classic concern. I'd recommend supplementing it, specifically with methylcobalmin (not cyanocobalamin).

You diet strikes me as low protein. Adequate protein is important in your case not just for preventing loss of muscle and bone, but for synthesizing nutrients like choline, taurine, carnitine and creatine, which are difficult to acquire without animal products. Soaked legumes may be beneficial for this purpose if you tolerate them.

Sea vegetables and fermented foods will be beneficial additions in my opinion. I'd even recommend an algae based omega-3 supplement, since it's a vegan source of long chain O3.

I'm also a fan of cooked mushrooms (crimini, white, button, and portebello) for a bit of B-vitamins and some minerals that may be lacking on your diet.

Hope this helps.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Thanks very much. I'll make a point to buy some mushrooms next time I go grocery shopping. Do you think nuts and nut butters are sufficient to get protein? And if so, how much per day?

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:43 PM

I, too, think cooked mushrooms would be extremely helpful.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 10, 2012
at 05:43 PM

I have no idea about the nutrition of cooked versus raw mushrooms, but I find, personally, that they're much easier to digest either marinated or cooked.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 10, 2012
at 03:34 PM

Do you think mushrooms are more nutritious cooked or raw? I'm sitting down to a plate of baked sweet potato, baked mushrooms and salad atm. Yumm!

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:48 PM

One issue with nut protein is that it's usually an incomplete protein and you may come up short on several specific amino acids, including methionine and lysine. You can add brazil nuts and sesame seeds for methionine though. Beyond that, it's hard to say without considering the type of nuts you're eating. Still, it's difficult to get enough total protein from nuts. I think you need an additional source of protein from food, since fruits tend to have little. Properly prepared lentils, for example, are a good source of protein (and they have plenty of lysine).

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:49 PM

For some info on lentil preparation: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/05/real-food-vii-lentils.html

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:33 PM

I think it depends on the person with nut tolerance, etc. What you might want to do (assuming, say, 15% protein for a day) is plug what you've eaten into nutritiondata.com and see how you stand. It's not perfect, but doing that can also help you figure out if you have any glaring nutrient deficiencies.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:48 PM

One issue with nut protein is that it's usually an incomplete protein and you may come up short on several specific amino acids, including methionine and lysine. You can add brazil nuts and sesame seeds for methionine though. Beyond that, it's hard to say without considering the type of nuts you're eating. Beyond that, it's difficult to get enough total protein from nuts. I think you need an additional source of protein from food, since fruits tend to have little. Properly prepared lentils, for example, are a good source of protein (and they have plenty of lysine).

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on October 03, 2012
at 02:09 AM

All mushrooms should be cooked to deactivate the small amount of toxin in them, even the button ones at the grocery. I've made whole meals of mushrooms, dandelion greens, and kale sauteed in coconut oil, and served on a baked potato.

8
Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on September 11, 2012
at 06:56 PM

I hope I don't get creamed for saying this, BUT...

Considering how things here on PH sometimes devolve into pissing contests, screaming matches, and other displays of anger and general holier-than-thou attitudes, especially where veganism is concerned, I am pleasantly surprised by all the genuinely helpful and constructive answers Pecan got here.

You guys have restored my faith in this group. Some days I log in and it's like, really? This is the best we can do? Now, frankly, I think some people deserve snarky answers and are practically asking for them in the way they phrase their questions and responses, but Pecan came here with a pleasant approach looking for honest feedback, and it looks like she got it. (Sorry, Pecan...not sure of your gender. I'm assuming female.) Thank you!

B6114a1980b1481fb18206064f3f4a4f

(3924)

on September 11, 2012
at 07:28 PM

I agree. It was a thoughtfully asked question and most people are answering it in a helpful, thoughtful way.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on September 11, 2012
at 10:24 PM

Yay! *group hug*

5
B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on September 10, 2012
at 05:12 PM

If you feel well on that diet, I don't see why you shouldn't continue eating like that... There's nothing wrong with not eating muscle meat, but it'd be better if you ate some oysters/liver just to be sure. You tolerate raw veggies?

4
Aa2224ea200abb90bd9d01a140d6d0e6

on October 22, 2012
at 06:36 AM

I am assuming that after 7 years on a vegan diet (roughly the same amount of time I've been vegan; vegetarian for 26 years though), you have probably learned from necessity many of the nutrient issues that have been raised here. I know the nutrient issues hit me hard around year 3.

I understand that your OCD and purity complex comment was primarily to counter the "eat meat" remarks as a pre-emptive strike. However, I have just recently become aware (as I have just this year weaned from my psych meds) that nutrients such as Omega 3 EPA (DHA too, but EPA is more specifically helpful to my needs), niacin, magnesium, and your B vitamins are critical for mental health and can be far more curative than pharmaceuticals if deficiency turns out to be the issue. These are also nutrients that are difficult to properly utilize in sufficient amounts from a vegan diet. I currently supplement these while I, once more, reevaluate the quantities of which foods I eat on a daily/weekly basis to make this happen. (I only wish someone had been more interested in my overall health somewhere along the way than making a buck. It would have saved me a lot of research and possibly a surgery.) By the way, if deficiency has always been the issue for me, as it seems to be, then I have been deficient since the days when I did eat meat.

Like you, I came to veganism from an ethical position, only to discover a vastly improved health after only a few months. I did not properly research it, which is why I have had to do that along the way and make adjustments. I am now on a full blown mission to complete nutritional education in order to combat a systemic autoimmunity issue that my doctors seem somewhat powerless to combat.

Based solely on the foods you listed that you eat and my past year of reading medical journals trying to figure out my own health, I suspect a need, like a couple others have mentioned, of some B vitamins and Omega 3, both of which you can get from a vegan diet or vegan supplementation. You may get what you need here already, as I feel certain that is not an all-inclusive list of your eats.

Anyway, all this is to say you're probably on the right track. I found my way here because I was starting to see the paleo diet pop up in literature here and there...not quite as often as vegan and gluten-free, but some, so I thought I would check it out. I too was looking at the possibility of incorporating it into my vegan diet. I'm coming to the conclusion that I probably shouldn't fully, but their idea is fairly sound. Processed foods and genetically modified foods are barely food, so not eating them is definitely a good plan. I had been trying to reason out why wheat (or broader, gluten) is bad for so many people. If truly we did not always eat wheat, then that makes a lot more sense. That is my next step - gluten free.

I don't really see you eating off their road map for proper diet. Even in the actual days of the hunter/gatherers, some peoples gathered more than they hunted and vice versa. Are you healthy? (Again, I doubt your OCD remark was about a health concern.) Just be healthy and you're doing just fine.

By the way, many have mentioned your weight loss. You said you were not looking to lose weight. Did I misunderstand? While I do find myself overweight, I doubt you have any weight issues on your self-described diet.

4
F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:35 PM

My answer:

By not having any animal products you are denying yourself some very important nutrients, like vitamin B12, essential amino acids, etc. Sooner or later it may cause some serious damage to your health.

Here are some videos by former vegetarians:

  1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNON5iNf07o

  2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heWprUncqIw

This is NOT my answer, but this is what I was actually thinking while reading your question:

WHF is paleo-vegan? Is it like a christian atheist? Have some fish, for God's sake. Or grass-fed meat.

Rotting flesh? How can somebody even come up with an idea of NOT EATING MEAT??? OR FISH??? It is like feeding grass to lions or tigers. That's where rotting flesh comes it.

3
9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

on January 03, 2013
at 02:32 AM

So just to try to get a handle on the nutritional value of your diet, I entered a bunch of foods into FitDay.com. You didn't say exactly which fruits and vegetables you ate, or at what quantity, but based on your comment:

"Fruits (in the morning / first half of the day) - Vegetables (both raw and cooked) - Potatoes (sweet and white) - Nuts (sparingly, in salads for a main course and never on the same day as potatoes)."

I created a food log with:
(breakfast)
1 banana
1 papaya
1 cantaloupe

(lunch)
1 cup cooked asparagus
1 cup raw carrots
4 red potatoes, baked, with skin, with salt

(dinner)
1 oz pecans
1 TBSP olive oil
1 cup endive/chicory/romaine lettuce
1 medium sweet potato baked in skin, with salt
1 raw radish
1 artichoke, cooked
1 medium sweet raw onion

I picked these items fairly randomly, I know you said you didn't eat nuts and potatoes in the same day, but I just wanted to pick some foods that added up to a representative diet, which might be somewhat accurate over a period of weeks or months.

This adds up to 1,593 calories, which might be enough for you depending on your size and activity level. This is more calories than I eat in a typical day and I am 6' 205#.

Also let me mention that I don't think that the US RDA are gospel, but it does give a good general guideline for nurition.

This diet has the following RDA:

0 cholesterol
0% vitamin B12
0% vitamin D
41% selenium
42% calcium
62% vitamin E
70% zinc
91% riboflav
99% sodium
119% magnesium
126% pant. acid
130% niacin
131% thiamin
154% phosphorus
156% iron
159% potassium
203% manganese
258% vitamin B6
291% vitamin A 359% vitamin C

So this looks ok until you realize that there is zero vitamin D and B12, which are essential for basic health (not good health, just survival). You will die if you don't ever eat these nutrients.

Zero cholesterol sounds great if you buy into the cholesterol myth, but the truth is that most of the rest of those nutrients won't be absorbed or used by your body unless they are consumed in the presence of some kind of fat. So if you are really "sparing" with your olive oil, most of these nutrients will just pass through your system.

The only conceivable way (IMHO) that this diet could be sustainable is if you eat a bunch of supplements that provide the missing nutrients. And this must be done carefully since a supplement rich in vitamin B6 for example, but not B12, won't help.

Without resorting to vegan-bashing, I just don't see how this diet is complete, healthy, or sustainable. It seems like half of a diet to me. And as others have pointed out, eating just a little bit of quality animal such as pastured egg yolks, oysters, grass-fed meat or pastured butter, would go a long way to filling the nutritional holes. I understand that there could be ethical or psychological reasons why you don't want to do that, but you're basically slowly starving yourself.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 03, 2013
at 07:54 AM

You won't not die if you don't ever eat vitamin D, thanks to a bright thing in the sky called the sun. Food is a pretty insignificant source of naturally occurring vitamin D anyway.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 03, 2013
at 07:55 AM

You won't die if you don't ever eat vitamin D, thanks to a bright thing in the sky called the sun. Food is a pretty insignificant source of naturally occurring vitamin D anyway.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on January 03, 2013
at 10:16 AM

Thanks a lot for your help. Most days I meet or exceed all my RDA nutrients/vitamins/minerals, with the exception of zero B12 and vitamin D, and also deficient zinc and iron. I understand that the cronometer profile does not give a complete account of these nutrients, though (for example Denise Minger said it doesn't distinguish between K1 and K2, the latter of which is missing from vegan diets). Since writing this post and learning more about paleo, I've been making a point to consume my greens and other veggies with a fat source for better absorption. Also trying to cut down on PUFAs.

3
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 10, 2012
at 05:05 PM

If you absolutely won't eat meat -

1- You are a fool for not getting psychiatric help, knowing you are being OCD and not dealing with it is just...nuts.

2 - Figure out a source of animal fat like cream, butter etc...it's at least something.

3 - Eat way more potato and ditched the fruit nonsense. Potato is at least complete protein and fairly high in it. It's a much smarter choice than a bunch of sugar.

4 - Strongly consider processed ("purified") foods of rice or pea protein concentrate.

5 - Coconut.

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on October 22, 2012
at 11:25 AM

"You are a fool for not getting psychiatric help...." I'd just point out he disconnect inherent in this statement. If you truly believe mental illness is present and psychiatric help is needed, then labeling one who needs it a "fool" seems pretty rude. Mentally ill people aren't fools, that sounds like something from the dark ages.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 23, 2012
at 04:35 PM

Chris - You need to learn to read. The statement was "You are a fool for not getting psychiatric help, knowing you are being OCD and not dealing with it " This says not that people with OCD are fools but that those who have the disorder, know they have it, and choose to live with it and not seek treatment are being fools. There is a difference, but hey, reading woudln't let you feel morally superior to people. Thanks for the -1 btw. What a tool.

2
A994080d499afca98cdc9de896701ebd

on October 22, 2012
at 09:16 AM

I would replace some of the fruit with legumes that were properly soaked. The soaking reduces the phytic acid that prevents you from absorbing nutrients.

Are you afraid of using butter/cream that comes from happily grazing cows? Vitamin K2 is so important and if you could get your hands on raw butter...man, I will be damned if you don't like the taste of butter.

Do you eat any fermented foods? Try sauerkraut. It's really good for your digestion and improves your overall health. That kind of food is better than any probiotic supplement.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on January 03, 2013
at 10:23 AM

I'm afraid butter grosses me out too! Still have to get around to trying fermented foods.

2
B6114a1980b1481fb18206064f3f4a4f

(3924)

on September 11, 2012
at 02:33 AM

I echo the sentiment that you need a lot more fat and a little more protein in your diet. For fats, go for more avocado, coconut oil, nuts, palm oil and olive oil. Don't worry that this will stall your weight loss. I think you will be amazed how much better your body feels with more fat in your diet.

I noticed you didn't list beans as part of your diet? Animal protien is the healthiest protein source hands down, but if you aren't ready for this step then I believe legumes are your next best option. Green peas are "Paleo enough" and would be a fabulous option for you. Other legumes are definitely not Paleo, but they are a dense form of whole foods protein and if prepared correctly by traditional methods (e.g.pre-soaked with an acid like lemon juice or vinegar for at least 24hrs, drained, then slow cooked) they are a second-best protein source. I'm not suggesting you eat lots of beans. They do contain anti-nutrients that can cause problems. But I do believe beans are a much healthier source of protein than grains and that many people can eat modest amounts and still be very healthy.

You might check out the Whole Nine blog. They are very sensitive to vegetarians and vegans in their approach to food coaching. They don't sugar coat things. They strongly believe that a Paleo diet that includes animal foods is the optimal diet for humans, but they understand that some people can only go so far in that direction and they are very good about trying to make suggestions for healthier options for vegetarians/vegans. Here's a post that explains their position a little: http://whole9life.com/2010/02/vegetarian/

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 11, 2012
at 07:39 AM

Thanks very much for your input and the link. I forgot to mention in my OP that I do eat peas, every couple of days with my potatoes or on their own. I avoid beans because I've read they're not paleo, but I agree with you that they're much a better option than grains so I will eat them if I'ms stuck. What do you think of organic corn on the cob?

B6114a1980b1481fb18206064f3f4a4f

(3924)

on September 11, 2012
at 07:23 PM

I live in the midwest so summer would not be complete without at least a little organic corn on the cob. I personally don't eat much because carbs are not my friend and I do best grain-free, but I let my sons eat their fill during the month or two it's in season - especially since we drown it in organic grassfed butter.

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on October 22, 2012
at 11:46 AM

Re: corn on the cob, you might do better with masa-based corn (tortillas, etc.) Such corn is "nixtamalized," a process of treating corn with lime (mineral, not the fruit). Such processing makes nutrients in corn more bioavailable, niacin in particular, which is otherwise not readily absorbed from unprocessed corn. Hominy is also treated this way. "New World" indigenous people developed this technique, and survived quite nicely on such corn along with beans, squashes, peppers, nuts, seeds, etc., no dairy or rendered/processed fats, and only occasional small game and fish, for millennia.

1
0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on January 03, 2013
at 10:39 AM

Hi all. Since posting this and learning more about paleo, I've implemented some dietary changes. I'm getting more healthy fats and have cut down on tubers (favouring sweet over white). I've also discovered the wonders of coconut oil and have been using that instead of olive oil. Generally I've been making a point to watch my 03:06 ratios. And I try to consume my veggies with a fat source for better nutrient-absorption. For example, often in the evening I'll roast a bunch of veggies in coconut oil and then throw in some raw spinach leaves. My diet consists of fruit, a wide variety of vegetables (raw and cooked), coconut oil (about 2-3 tbsp a day), sometimes raw food treats (eg. bars made with cacao, dates and nut butters), nuts sparingly, green tea, occasional coffee, occasional red wine, and other stuff.

Thanks for all the advice offered. I haven't made the leap to eating meat. If I were to do so, it would be some kind of fish or oysters. But if I were going to eat fish, it'd have to be good quality and I can't really afford that. Still grosses me out, though! Also still have to take the time to locate the right supplements.

1
1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on January 03, 2013
at 07:41 AM

Consuming a vegan DHA supplement is very important. As is fermented vegetables.

1
74786bbe8254844304a33943290c4d6d

on January 03, 2013
at 12:22 AM

Howdy Pecan! Love the name.

No one here is going to convince you to eat meat. Just like no vegan would ever be able to convince a paleo foodie to give up meat. Or eggs.

You already know what we know: b-vitamins and numerous others are found only in meat. I'd highly recommend supplementing if you aren't already.

Eat fat! Avocados, coconut, properly prepared nuts.

If you aren't opposed to eating oysters or shrimp, I say go for it.

It's already been said, but...there ain't no such thing as a 'paleo vegan' ;) But now I'm just being a smart-ass arguing semantics.

Do the best you can with what you feel comfortable with! But listen to your body and eat what it's craving.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on January 03, 2013
at 10:19 AM

Thanks for the reply. Since posting this, I've been trying to incorporating more healthy fats into my diet. I've discovered the wonders of coconut oil!

74786bbe8254844304a33943290c4d6d

(1663)

on January 05, 2013
at 11:09 PM

Coconuts are miraculous! Enjoy 'em!

1
Ed7403e397077dd1acdbf25c7f6e56ce

on January 02, 2013
at 04:44 PM

To the best of my knowledge, it is not possible to receive a complete amino profile from any single vegan source. There is good news, though. Unused aminos are stored in the body until the necessary components arrive to allow use.

So, your challenge is to find a group of protein sources that compliment each other's amino profiles.

Personally, I don't like using whey, so I use Nutrifusion Multiple Source Vegan protein powder. It's tasty, well-textured, and provides a rapid-delivery of a complete amino profile. The best part, for me at least, is that it's soy-free, too.

Pea protein isolate, Artichoke protein, sprouted amaranth powder, sprouted quinoa powder

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0041556UO

Also, you may want to check out Rich Roll's podcast.

1
003af421681aa28187a1989efdfef98f

(10)

on October 23, 2012
at 03:42 PM

What's wrong with being or inquiring about being Paleo-Vegan? Can we move away from the judgement? Choosing not to eat meat, regardless of the reason, doesn't make someone crazy or become something they have to get over. I came upon this site while searching for Paleo-Vegan myself. After eating meat all my life and having been Paleo for the last 5 months, I recently discovered I developed an allergy to animal protein which was identified as the sole cause of my SEVERE arthritis inflammation. This was determined via a food elimination diet. Does this mean I have to give up the Paleo lifestyle I've grown into? Does it give me a free pass to bread and pasta? I'm not interested in going back. I like Paleo, but clearly can't eat animal protein. Does my Paleo diet now become 80/20 substituting SOME legumes for meat? I don't expect I'll find the answer here, but I ask you all, again, to save your judgement for those who choose (or in some cases don't have a choice) not to eat meat.

8a0747cdcef6cb22ab8f7233bb55aa9c

(139)

on May 20, 2013
at 01:08 PM

Don't see much judging here. Just people trying to be helpful. Who is this comment aimed at?

1
0f1f456a459079dcfffd86ce356455ba

on October 03, 2012
at 01:56 AM

I am vegan as well. And before the Paleo diet came out I was already eating pretty basic and clean. I am not convinced about the Paleo diet and have to do more research on it. Especially since quinoa is a no no. I am very conscious of my body and have a very sensitive digestion. Quinoa is a great source of complete protein and agrees with my digestion very well. I am also conscious to get as much good fat as possible. I eat alot of fruit for breakfast and by itself for snacks. By the time mid morning hits I have already had more fruit than most people have fruit and veggies all day. Then common staples in my diet that I eat almost every day are coconut oil, olive oil, apple cider vinegar, avocados, quinoa, tahini, tons of leafy green veggies as well as onions. Unfortunately I have to work on the road alot and give in to vegan pizza and cupcakes sometimes but it all balances out.

1
B7e1ad6bb9ab814b8e90bdad4a472d5e

on September 12, 2012
at 12:50 AM

you just need to re-frame how you feel about meat. just read more books on paleo

0
738f6ad31a6942d5a17e05fedca572f4

on May 20, 2013
at 06:51 AM

There is starting to become more and more information out there on how to be a Paleo Vegetarian. Your diet is missing healthy fats, especially Omega 3 fats, and protein. All that fruit isn't good for you either. Check out http://www.paleovegetarianhq.com/ for more information it may be your best bet.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on May 20, 2013
at 02:21 PM

My diet has changed radically since I posted this thread but thank you for the link nonetheless. I think the concept of paleo v*ganism needs to be given more of a platform within the paleo community. The fact is that some people will not eat meat and there can be any number of reasons for this. Treating paleo as some kind of ideology is useless. Intellectual honesty rather than hostility is needed to provide people with the information and resources to make the best health choices they can according to their own personal context.

0
2a00b9a42e4cb6e489a0e69d20714576

on January 03, 2013
at 08:45 PM

If you have a purity complex buy grassfed meat, free range eggs, pastured pork.

0
0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 10, 2012
at 03:53 PM

A lot of people are recommending I add more fats like coconut oil, avocado and olive oil (which I do use sparingly). Do you think that if I add more fats, I should also reduce carbs? I currently eat about 1500-2000 cals of fruit/veg/potato/otherstuff a day and exercise regularly.

26e2364f7966432bbf8acfe930583674

(460)

on September 10, 2012
at 04:23 PM

You'll need to reduce your intake of one of the other macronutrients if you increase you intake of fat and want to keep your caloric intake fairly consistent. Given the concern about getting enough protein others have voiced previously, I'd say reducing carbohydrate intake would be the better path to take. That being said, depending upon your stature and the composition and frequency of your regular exercise, an increase in energy intake could be beneficial in your quest to lose those 10 lbs. if you are presently under-consuming energy and your metabolism is adjusting to preserve fat reserves

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on September 12, 2012
at 12:39 AM

I think that eating at least moderate-fat is important. But as Erik said, you'd have to decrease something else if you increase fat aiming to lose. What do you do for exercise? Make sure you're eating enough if you exercise vigorously on a regular basis. I was thinking of this earlier and forgot to mention it, but you might be interested in the Go Kaleo website. The author is, I believe, following a plant-based diet that doesn't involve most grains. (She has lost a lot of weight and writes about health and fitness.)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 13, 2012
at 11:57 PM

Unless your metabolism is broken the increased fat should make the meals more satiating and you should naturally compensate by eating less of other things.

0
0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:26 PM

MathGirl, I personally find that eating nuts and potatoes together or on the same day results in digestion problems (pain, bloating and loss of energy). It's not a rule that I'd recommend universally or anything.

whoreball, I have and am thinking it through. It's a very deep-seeded thing with me, psychologically and physically, and I'm not ready to start eating meat any time soon.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on September 09, 2012
at 09:38 PM

A good place to start may be a mental health professional. Something so "deep-seeded" needs to be fleshed out. Meat isn't the enemy here; your unhealthy eating is.

98266ae0c87836d4bb714b6d31cacbf9

(1632)

on September 10, 2012
at 03:21 PM

You have accepted it as "deep-seeded." This way nothing is going to change.

F92e4ca55291c3f3096a3d4d3d854986

(11698)

on September 09, 2012
at 08:43 PM

Hi Pecan and welcome. If you are responding to someone else's answer, you should post it as a comment to their answer, like I've done here, not as as separate post. Makes it easier for everyone to follow.

98266ae0c87836d4bb714b6d31cacbf9

(1632)

on September 10, 2012
at 04:46 PM

There is no hurry. Take it step by step. I would recommend for now switching from vegan to vegetarian. Incorporate dairy at least and then move on to eggs and so on. Baby steps :)

0382fa263de4c83328dc34a56e25437f

(4238)

on September 11, 2012
at 07:04 PM

For the record, it's "deep-seated."

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 09, 2012
at 10:21 PM

Sorry Renee. MathGirl, it is deep-seeded however it's not the worst problem one can have. OCD runs in my family, it's just a part of my personality which I am gradually getting better at managing. It may be good to hire a therapist for that end, but I have neither the time nor the money to do that right now. Thank you for your input.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 10, 2012
at 03:39 PM

No, I have acknowledged it as deep-seeded because there is abundant evidence pointing to that fact and I believe, just like with most core personality traits, that it can be changed with the right environmental influences ;)

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on September 13, 2012
at 07:28 PM

If you are not ready to change, you are not ready to improve. (I mean that in a constructive way, not snarky). I don't doubt that it would be really hard for you to change under these circumstances, and it won't be quick, but I think that just by being here and asking these questions, the rational side of your mind knows that change is needed. It just has to convince the irrational meat-hating side. :) I agree with Mathgirl that you should seek out some mental health support, and if you can't afford therapy right now, at least maybe some books on overcoming OCD? Best of luck, Pecan!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 13, 2012
at 11:56 PM

@Canis +1 for putting the period inside the quotes.

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on September 13, 2012
at 09:28 AM

Thanks, teacher.

-2
Cc69a51b427eaad36251cce9dcca4d3a

(1074)

on January 02, 2013
at 04:47 PM

I eat a carnivore Paleo Diet. and so I shall downvote you!

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 02, 2013
at 07:41 PM

This answer was not helpful. And so I shall downvote you!

0b7c3e7fd96005f0b2dfd781e512fc2e

(1237)

on January 03, 2013
at 10:19 AM

Cool story, bro. How about a sequel?

-4
6848d4c2e947b67c622cacd04512ec85

on January 09, 2013
at 08:33 PM

There sure is a lot of vegan bashing on here by people who seem to know everything about nutrition and disease. You know there are literally THOUSANDS of studies of clinical nutrition every year, and they almost never show health benefits of eating animal products, and regularly show health benefits of eating plants.

http://nutritionfacts.org

Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 09, 2013
at 11:04 PM

hmmm....my diabetes didn't result from overeating oysters....

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