3

votes

The Perfect Health Diet for dogs

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created January 24, 2013 at 7:49 PM

Well, dogs are not Paleo! Who would have thought?

Here is an article and supposedly, they are okay with Neolithic starches. Especially potatoes.

If dogs evolved so far from wolves, what about people? Maybe Neolithic foods are okay for us too? Although some foods like croissants could be post-Neolithic.

Maybe it is all about gut flora after all...

CLARIFICATION - QUESTION: if dogs are not Paleo, why should we be?

Source

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 28, 2013
at 07:38 AM

Yah, one more example of pay now, or pay later.... You can try soaking the liver in milk over night to cut down the "gamey-ness".

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 27, 2013
at 04:29 AM

And just because a dog can digest a starch under optimal conditions doesn't mean it should. Their guts process fast and acidic - they don't break down cellulose walls. Is it paleo to have to cook veggies into mush for a dog?

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 27, 2013
at 04:28 AM

Yep! Unfortunately for me, this means I have to puree liver to get it into my incredibly stubborn dog (I blitz it with tuna) but it's completely worth it. The huge vet bills just went away.

Fb67dc30cead043d1d13ea503a3044dc

(3280)

on January 25, 2013
at 06:06 AM

DH = dear hubby or darling husband. :)

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on January 25, 2013
at 05:31 AM

FACTS: Potatoes were introduced in Russia in 1759. Dogs were domesticated over 15,000 years ago. Tolstoy ate sugar, chocolate, bread, butter, caviar, etc. Very neolithic. Chuckchee were exposed to more neolithic foods after 1929.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 03:24 AM

Judging by the longevity of the breed (Huskies), I am certain that they are okay with basic starches. Maybe it's not ideal, but they are certainly well tolerated. Tolerated better than wolves. Maybe not as well as humans.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 03:21 AM

Also, I did not say that broccoli or flax or tomatoes were traditional. I said those were included in the dog food (actually I was mistaken, it looks like broccoli is not included though). That's all.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 25, 2013
at 03:21 AM

I think I'm confused....what was the question?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 03:20 AM

Well, the chuckchee were basically Eskimo's, and that is where the word Husky comes from ("Eski"). So, yes, when they were sled dogs they were eating primarily meat and fish. But, as I said, around the 16th century they were domesticated as house pets throughout Siberia (not just with the Chukchi). This is when traditional Russian foods would have been introduced. From what I know from online and reading Tolstoy, traditional Russian foods are game meat, fish, vegetables (including potatoes and cabbage), berries, oats, and rye (and vodka). So, that is where I am getting that from.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 03:19 AM

say that broccoli or flax or tomatoes were traditional. I said those were included in the dog food (actually I was mistaken, it looks like broccoli is not included though). That's all.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 03:18 AM

Well, the chuckchee were basically Eskimo's, and that is where the word Husky comes from ("Eski"). So, yes, when they were sled dogs they were eating primarily meat and fish. But, as I said, around the 16th century they were domesticated as house pets throughout Siberia (not just with the Chukchi). This is when traditional Russian foods would have been introduced. From what I know from online and reading Tolstoy, traditional Russian foods are game meat, fish, vegetables (including potatoes and cabbage), oats, and rye. So, that is where I am getting that from. Also, I did not...

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 03:13 AM

Well, the chuckchee were basically Eskimo's, and that is where the word Husky comes from ("Eski"). So, yes, when they were sled dogs they were eating primarily meat and fish. But, as I said, around the 16th century they were domesticated as house pets throughout Siberia (not just with the Chukchi). This is where other traditional russian foods would have been introduced into their diet- potatoes, yes, are a traditional Russian food. I did not say that broccoli or tomatoes were. I said that those were included in the dog food that I feed my Husky, that's all.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on January 25, 2013
at 02:35 AM

Who is DH? .....

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on January 25, 2013
at 02:34 AM

Foreveryoung, you are wrong about the Chuckchee diet - they never ate potatoes and they eat very little berries. It is mostly fish, meat, etc. Also, Russians adopted potatoes quite recently in history, they used rutabagas prior to that. So... we don't really know what was the original Husky diet - they definitely did not have flax meal, broccoli and tomatoes.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 12:40 AM

But, my point about your gut flora claim not being valid without some premises, still stands. Removed the dv though

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 12:40 AM

But, my point about your gut flora claim not being valid with some premises, still stands. Removed the dv though.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 12:39 AM

Ah, I see. My apologies.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on January 25, 2013
at 12:28 AM

Try reading the ENTIRE question, foreveryoung. "If dogs evolved so far from wolves, what about people? Maybe Neolithic foods are okay for us too? Although some foods like croissants could be post-Neolithic. Maybe it is all about gut flora after all..."

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 12:01 AM

Your n=1 experience with starch is also irrelevant, and your claim that gut flora is not the only thing that determines what one can eat is likewise impertinent without some supporting premises....So I'm down voting because I feel it's not a good answer in regards to the question, nor is it a well constructed argument.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 24, 2013
at 11:55 PM

...So I'm down voting because I feel it's not a good answer in regards to the question, nor is it a well constructed argument.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 24, 2013
at 11:55 PM

So I'm down voting because I feel it's not a good answer in both regards to the question and also because it's a poorly constructed argument.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 24, 2013
at 11:53 PM

Your n=1 experience with starch is also irrelevant, and your claim that gut flora is not the only thing that determines what one can eat likewise impertinent useless without some supporting premises.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 24, 2013
at 11:42 PM

Because it's irrelevant. Dogs are the topic of discussion. Dogs are neolithic. So, paleolithic standards don't apply. if we were talking of wolves, that would be different. But the question is in regards to dogs.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on January 24, 2013
at 11:40 PM

Why did that garner me a -1? I never claimed they were.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 24, 2013
at 11:16 PM

-1 because there is no evidence that we domesticated dogs in the Paleolithic. It is known that the Siberian Husky is the first domesticated breed of dog, likely by the Chukchi people during the 16th century in Siberia.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on January 24, 2013
at 08:55 PM

Also, FWIW, my dogs and cats are grain- and soy-free.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 24, 2013
at 08:35 PM

Potatoes are one of my favorite starches, dogs are tamed wolves, it doesn't surprise me that dogs also can digest potatoes, to a degree at least.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 24, 2013
at 08:15 PM

I wouldn't classify a starchy root vegtable like the potatoe as neolithic food.

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6 Answers

3
61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on January 24, 2013
at 08:09 PM

99.999999999999999% of our food today did not exist during Paleo times. I can handle some starches in moderation. I cannot handle grains and legumes, and it has nothing to do with gut flora. My gut processes everything just fine. What my cells do with it once the gut has processed it is the problem.

Gut flora is not the only thing that determines what you can and cannot eat.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on January 24, 2013
at 11:40 PM

Why did that garner me a -1? I never claimed they were.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 12:40 AM

But, my point about your gut flora claim not being valid without some premises, still stands. Removed the dv though

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 12:01 AM

Your n=1 experience with starch is also irrelevant, and your claim that gut flora is not the only thing that determines what one can eat is likewise impertinent without some supporting premises....So I'm down voting because I feel it's not a good answer in regards to the question, nor is it a well constructed argument.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 24, 2013
at 11:42 PM

Because it's irrelevant. Dogs are the topic of discussion. Dogs are neolithic. So, paleolithic standards don't apply. if we were talking of wolves, that would be different. But the question is in regards to dogs.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 24, 2013
at 11:55 PM

...So I'm down voting because I feel it's not a good answer in regards to the question, nor is it a well constructed argument.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 24, 2013
at 11:53 PM

Your n=1 experience with starch is also irrelevant, and your claim that gut flora is not the only thing that determines what one can eat likewise impertinent useless without some supporting premises.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 24, 2013
at 11:55 PM

So I'm down voting because I feel it's not a good answer in both regards to the question and also because it's a poorly constructed argument.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on January 24, 2013
at 08:55 PM

Also, FWIW, my dogs and cats are grain- and soy-free.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 24, 2013
at 11:16 PM

-1 because there is no evidence that we domesticated dogs in the Paleolithic. It is known that the Siberian Husky is the first domesticated breed of dog, likely by the Chukchi people during the 16th century in Siberia.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 12:39 AM

Ah, I see. My apologies.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 12:40 AM

But, my point about your gut flora claim not being valid with some premises, still stands. Removed the dv though.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on January 25, 2013
at 12:28 AM

Try reading the ENTIRE question, foreveryoung. "If dogs evolved so far from wolves, what about people? Maybe Neolithic foods are okay for us too? Although some foods like croissants could be post-Neolithic. Maybe it is all about gut flora after all..."

2
Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 25, 2013
at 05:28 AM

Prey Model Raw = Paleo for Dogs

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 27, 2013
at 04:28 AM

Yep! Unfortunately for me, this means I have to puree liver to get it into my incredibly stubborn dog (I blitz it with tuna) but it's completely worth it. The huge vet bills just went away.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 28, 2013
at 07:38 AM

Yah, one more example of pay now, or pay later.... You can try soaking the liver in milk over night to cut down the "gamey-ness".

2
34f00c7b4e5738cf04ead1a012a14ed1

(996)

on January 25, 2013
at 01:25 AM

While I'm certainly no expert on dog nutrition, this has been my experience with dog diets. I own a 9 year old Rottweiler mix, who I adopted when he was 5 years old. I started out feed him the "best" kibble - Orijen. It was grain free, high protein and consistently won awards for "pet food of the year". He wasn't a healthy dog to begin with. He was abused and left in a backyard by his previous owners. When I adopted him he was only 55lbs and could barely walk. (Today he weighs 90lbs and isn't an ounce overweight.)

For the first year I had him, he had chronic eye infections. We were seriously at the vet every 2 weeks when his eye drops ran out, and my vet was on the verge of prescribing steroids to help with his immunity. I took him off kibble and started researching alternative ways to feed him. From there I started feeding him a combination of raw meat (bones and organs too) and veggies that I prepared for him. He got much better, but he would still get an eye infection once every few months.

I then thought to myself, "What if..." and I pulled all the veggies out of his diet completely. He hasn't gotten an eye infection since.

I know my personal experience doesn't speak for all of dog-kind, but I would never go back to feeding my dog a diet that apparently compromised his immune system. I'm sure my dog absolutely has the ability to digest the starch from vegetables, but I'm not sure that makes it the ideal food for him. Scientifically, dogs are still classified as carnivores, and I think what goes into the "perfect" diet is more than just what you can digest.

2
1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

on January 24, 2013
at 11:06 PM

VB- What are dogs? Dogs are domesticated wolves. The first domesticated breed of dogs is known today as the Siberian Husky. So, this breed of dog is a good start as to where the traditional wolf diet (meat, fish, berries) deviated, and turned into the traditional dog (siberian Husky) diet.

Siberian Husky's originated in, well, Siberia. Siberia is part of Russia. So, in an era where dog food was yet to be invented, the original dog diet (that is, the traditional dog diet, whence Huskys first dined alongside humans) is also the traditional Russian diet. We can imagine that this was initially comprised of meat, fish, vegetables, and potatoes. After that, perhaps during the 16th century, Husky's living in the countryside probably also oats, and perhaps rye.

As you can see, some basic reasoning leads us the believe that dogs are well equipped to handle some basic starches. Better than wolves, surely, but likely not as well as humans.

I happen to have owned/own two Husky's (one I grew up with and died when I was in high school, and the other I bought my junior year of high school) and fed/feed them both a high protein, grain and soy free dog food tailored specifically for Husky needs. The dog food brand is called "Blue Buffalo," and some of the basic ingredients are lamb, chicken, beef, duck, and/or salmon as the first ingredient. Their carbs come from carrots, sweet potatoes, and potatoes. Antioxidants come in the form of blueberries, tomatoes, cranberries, and broccoli among some other herbs like parsley. Extra EFAs are added in the form of flaxmeal and extra amino acids like taurine and l-carnitine. http://bluebuffalo.com/dog-food/grain-free-wilderness

(If you'll notice, that also happens to be the standard bodybuilding diet. I mean, the diet that has been time-tested and that you should follow if you want to get really fit, healthy, and ripped.)

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 03:21 AM

Also, I did not say that broccoli or flax or tomatoes were traditional. I said those were included in the dog food (actually I was mistaken, it looks like broccoli is not included though). That's all.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 03:24 AM

Judging by the longevity of the breed (Huskies), I am certain that they are okay with basic starches. Maybe it's not ideal, but they are certainly well tolerated. Tolerated better than wolves. Maybe not as well as humans.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 03:13 AM

Well, the chuckchee were basically Eskimo's, and that is where the word Husky comes from ("Eski"). So, yes, when they were sled dogs they were eating primarily meat and fish. But, as I said, around the 16th century they were domesticated as house pets throughout Siberia (not just with the Chukchi). This is where other traditional russian foods would have been introduced into their diet- potatoes, yes, are a traditional Russian food. I did not say that broccoli or tomatoes were. I said that those were included in the dog food that I feed my Husky, that's all.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on January 25, 2013
at 02:34 AM

Foreveryoung, you are wrong about the Chuckchee diet - they never ate potatoes and they eat very little berries. It is mostly fish, meat, etc. Also, Russians adopted potatoes quite recently in history, they used rutabagas prior to that. So... we don't really know what was the original Husky diet - they definitely did not have flax meal, broccoli and tomatoes.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on January 25, 2013
at 05:31 AM

FACTS: Potatoes were introduced in Russia in 1759. Dogs were domesticated over 15,000 years ago. Tolstoy ate sugar, chocolate, bread, butter, caviar, etc. Very neolithic. Chuckchee were exposed to more neolithic foods after 1929.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 03:19 AM

say that broccoli or flax or tomatoes were traditional. I said those were included in the dog food (actually I was mistaken, it looks like broccoli is not included though). That's all.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 03:18 AM

Well, the chuckchee were basically Eskimo's, and that is where the word Husky comes from ("Eski"). So, yes, when they were sled dogs they were eating primarily meat and fish. But, as I said, around the 16th century they were domesticated as house pets throughout Siberia (not just with the Chukchi). This is when traditional Russian foods would have been introduced. From what I know from online and reading Tolstoy, traditional Russian foods are game meat, fish, vegetables (including potatoes and cabbage), oats, and rye. So, that is where I am getting that from. Also, I did not...

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 25, 2013
at 03:20 AM

Well, the chuckchee were basically Eskimo's, and that is where the word Husky comes from ("Eski"). So, yes, when they were sled dogs they were eating primarily meat and fish. But, as I said, around the 16th century they were domesticated as house pets throughout Siberia (not just with the Chukchi). This is when traditional Russian foods would have been introduced. From what I know from online and reading Tolstoy, traditional Russian foods are game meat, fish, vegetables (including potatoes and cabbage), berries, oats, and rye (and vodka). So, that is where I am getting that from.

1
3491e51730101b18724dc57c86601173

(8395)

on January 24, 2013
at 10:31 PM

DH brought that article home to show me.

Just because dogs have genes to digest starches does not mean starches are ideal foods for dogs and certainly not the modern GMO and hybridized grains that are giving us humans so many problems, too.

A lot of people are having success improving their dogs' health on diets like the BARF diet. Meanwhile, my DH insists on continuing to give our dog kibble and "cookies" (Tell me why dogs need "healthy whole grains" in their treats, someone, please????). She has constant skin allergies and food allergies and nearly died last year from an autoimmune disorder (thrombocytopenia). Yet DH feels vindicated for giving her grain and starch based foods because of this article. AAARGH!

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on January 25, 2013
at 02:35 AM

Who is DH? .....

Fb67dc30cead043d1d13ea503a3044dc

(3280)

on January 25, 2013
at 06:06 AM

DH = dear hubby or darling husband. :)

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 27, 2013
at 04:29 AM

And just because a dog can digest a starch under optimal conditions doesn't mean it should. Their guts process fast and acidic - they don't break down cellulose walls. Is it paleo to have to cook veggies into mush for a dog?

0
E253f8ac1d139bf4d0bfb44debd1db21

on January 25, 2013
at 05:08 AM

We know neolithic foods are OK for us because, provided they are not available in excess they generally do little harm.

It's only in an ad libitum situation that neolithic foods are, for many people, inevitably harmful.

Interestingly, paleolithic foods do no harm (in most people) even when available in excess.

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