4

votes

paleo perspective on depression - a beneficial adaptation?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created July 08, 2012 at 3:23 AM

This question came about following a conversation with my housekeeper.

She recently visited a medical practitioner to ask for advice regarding increasing feelings of depression (brought on in my view as a result of her son recently being diagnosed with prostatic carcinoma and being scheduled for surgery). The advice was to start a course of antidepressants and seek psychological counseling.

I explained to my housekeeper that depression is a perfectly normal adaptation (with the exception when it is caused by underlying pathology) which serves to empower the individual to meet challenges in life. In fact, to take antidepressants - a pharmacological quick fix -would deprive her of the opportunity to recognize and address problems that clearly were affecting her.

This is not an unconventional view, see http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=depressions-evolutionary .

Having said that, I do recognize that there are times when a pharmacological intervention is the only reasonable course of action for acute and prolonged bouts of depression.

For paleo people, I it may be that depression could be of particularly concern:

Firstly, the paucity of carbohydrates - especially refined carbohydrates - removes a source of dopamine and serotonin stimulation. This is, of course, beneficial as it hopefully will influence individuals to seek pleasure from healthy activities and suddenly spending the entire weekend in front of the TV will not seem so relaxing.

Secondly, paleo people would be, I believe, disinclined to resort to antidepressants and would seek non-pharmacological methods of balancing serotonin and dopamine. However, not everyone knows what they're doing and some may find themselves suffering for months or longer whilst trying to find the appropriate combination of food and activity.

Can depression be considered as a beneficial adaptation?

Ab136abf1904c5f7908f3df596bf18c3

(80)

on December 24, 2012
at 09:10 PM

To those who feel psychiatric drugs have helped them I'd like to wish them well. I don't feel you shouldn't have taken them, merely that in many cases they are misused by the medical profession and that the misinformation provided to prospective users is disgusting. I would urge you not to automatically assume that the those who are most critical of those drugs and the system are those with no experience of what we label mental illness. I can assure you that in my experience such passion is usually born from outrage at how we were treated and misled during exactly such experiences.

Ab136abf1904c5f7908f3df596bf18c3

(80)

on December 24, 2012
at 09:00 PM

I know I'm late to this but I have to say that a friend like Jamie sounds like could have had a dramatically positive influence on the direction my life took. I ended up finding out the hard way that I agree with him. The way that marketing and politics dominates the so called science when it comes to psychiatric drugs is a scandalous human rights abuse. Perhaps they can be useful in some situations, and everyone is free to make their own decisions, but people deserve to make those decisions with access to what science knows, not merely what marketing propagates.

59fa7cd87fb9d669adf21e5cf3e7ada5

on October 23, 2012
at 01:13 PM

Hey Shari don't know if you still follow this thread but I'm on the lifetime plan re anti-depressants myself, started when I was 19 (my only suicide attempt) and has continued throughout my life, I take a short "vacation" from them every few years and it's the same old thing without them, people don't understand how bad depression is.

9beda76f4e91faedc8fa70ecdc01251e

(298)

on July 24, 2012
at 08:05 PM

Thanks for sharing, Oz. I didn't have that level of depression, but what I did have is so much better on paleo. I tend towards melancholy anyway, but that's manageable. I notice an increase if I have too many cheat-foods...

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 12, 2012
at 03:16 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/nbc-jesse-jackson-jr-rehab-alcoholism-addiction-221954580.html So sad to see this. Probably depression that was self-medicated with alcohol due to the stigma attacked with proper medical treatment for the disease. Jamie I'm glad you found something that is working for you and that you are well.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 11:40 AM

Anyway, the whole thing makes me sick to the stomach, so thats enough of that...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 11:38 AM

When I was in mental hospital, it got to the point, where the staff nurses would ask _me_ to go talk to the disturbed patients, to make them feel heard, empathised w/ and more comfortable. I went in there as a patient, and ending up doing their job. Almost (not all) everyone who works in mental health, especially wards, simply shouldnt IMO. They mostly hate their jobs, and stand behind a wall of uncaring. It takes real compassion for those jobs, and I dont think they generally have it, they only have a selfish desire to add meaning to their own limited lives & never reconcil the conflict.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 11:34 AM

Its horrific! The people in mental hospitals are in the most terrible situations, horrible lives, hopeless, confused, messed up, directionless and then further robbed of power or expression by their psychiatrist. At least case managers and councillers do more useful things to actually help you. Many people often need advocates in those situations because they are so beaten down, both by life, and by the system they find themselves in. Some just drift in and out of the wards, like prison accustomed criminals. Talk about stigmatised - the crazy "treatment" and the labels.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 11:29 AM

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/The_Role_of_Sense_of_Belonging_and_Social_Support_on_Stress_and_Depression_in.pdf What I find most appalling, downright mindboggling, is that nuturing friendships, improving social skills, excercise, light, proper sleep, a sense of purpose or meaning in life, worldveiw (except in the case of DBT/CBT/mindfullness), diet or any contributor to happiness or sadness - none of these things are typically in a psychiatrists treatment regime. Instead you "talk about our feelings" (to stranger with a generally stilted and faked sense of compassion) and take a pill.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 10:55 AM

if theyd simply never gone onto the pills. Yes this is personal, for you and for me. You know what, I think ill try and ignore your assumptions and your bitter parting shot. Instead Ill say this. I simply hope that our society wakes up, and sees the lonely, uncaring, communitiless army of lost and confused people its creating, the giant tide of mental illness, the constantly escalating suicide numbers and realises that a band aid is not enough. People need real purpose. They need real caring. They need real lives. Sadly, the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff is only going to get busier.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 10:45 AM

But your right, we should probably stop engaging each other.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 10:43 AM

Instead I hope sincerely that our society wakes the hell up, and sees the lonely, uncaring, communitiless army of lost and confused people its creating, the giant tide of mental illness in western society, the constantly escalating suicide numbers and realises that a band aid is not enough. What people need is _real_ caring.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 10:39 AM

if theyd simply never gone onto the pills. Yes this is personal, for you and for me. So, thusly, I am going to match your closing remark, bitterness for bitterness - I can only hope that people who need help will not fall into the trap of long term poorly understood drugs with only short term proven efficacy, or anyone like you, or people like you in the mental illness profession for whom emotions and difficulties are not things which to empathise with, understand, or to offer _real_ practical support, but instead to medicate, offer due negligance, and then ignore when the clock turns to five.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 10:35 AM

I have been depressed, very, many years. Abused drugs to escape. Attempted suicide twice, once by drowning, once by overdose. Been on a swath of different anti-depressants. Been in mental hospitals. Seen shrinks a hundred times or more. Know lots of people who are on anti-depressants. One commited suicide about a year ago. My persion experience, of which I have a fair bit, despite your assumption, is that anti-depressants keep you depressed. That matches with the above research I posted. I still wonder if my freind who killed themselves could have kicked there depression

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 10, 2012
at 04:27 AM

Jamie I'm not going to engage with you anymore.I believe you mean well but clearly you have some issues around this subject as do I. Clearly you have no actual experience with the matter which is problematic.This is also not the case for me.I have been unfortunate enough to suffer and almost die from this deadly disease.I have also had the misfortune to work in the mental health field and had to witness the deaths of others from this disease.I can only hope that people who need help will not have the misfortune of running into you or anyone like you who reads but does not understand a thing.

1e58ba5c171a122541d8b4873f604327

(229)

on July 10, 2012
at 03:39 AM

Yeah inflammation has achieved a bit of buzzword status. Maybe we are overemphasizing it... on the other hand there are some really interesting studies about ibprofoun (spelling?) Treating depression.... I believe they were double blind etc but haven't read them myself. it amazes me how little we know about the human body

Af2662fc82df87952abb3fdf16b20aa4

(410)

on July 09, 2012
at 10:44 AM

Thanks for the links Jamie. I find the connections between mental health/ the brain and diet and lifestyle really interesting. I think for myself the omega 3:6 ratio has been important so that's something I keep a close eye on too.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 09:04 AM

Should we ignore when harm may be actively being caused in the intention of therapy, so that people keep seeking help? If we are to point people in the direction of expert advice, should we not also hold those experts to highest account, and their methods to the tightest scrunity and criticism, if we truely care about the outcomes of those we entrust to their care?

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:59 AM

Have you considered that maybe the mental health service, and psychiatrists might sometimes be doing some harm to people with long term medications? At minimum, there is a reasonable rate of drug related fatalities from things like organ failure, and the persistant long term anti-psych nasty side effect, tardive dyskinesia. Anti-depressants are probably alot safer than many anti-psychs. And that not where the story ends either, as u can tell if you read those two articles. Or should there be no questioning, checking or accountability at all?

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:46 AM

When did I assume anything about you personally? I am not anti-drug at all. I am only warning of the logical and scientifically indicated problems with long term anti-depressants because I understand a bit about how they work, and how the brain works. I do not stigmatize people with emotional difficulties, or cognitive difficulties at all. I have been in that exact situation myself.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:39 AM

In fact I dare say I have had more personal interaction with mental health, and mentally ill people than most people with depression. I have personally been on a large variety of drugs for treatment. I wouldnt care so much about peoples outcomes otherwise, if I hadnt experienced first hand what can happen to people left out in the cold emotionally, with nothing but a pill with only short term proven efficacy

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:36 AM

And, BTW, I am sorry that what I am saying, whatever you choose to make of it, is not exactly nice to hear if one is on long term anti-depressants, and suffer from depression. I havent failed to give that thought, and I am sorry if thats upsetting at all! At least if you choose to keep using medicines in your situation, this information might help you select good strategies with your psychiatrist to minimise these effects as is possible, from medications, like swapping the medical actions of the drugs a bit.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:31 AM

Heres another article for you, which links to more relevant research, and talks about a number of relevant studies on the topic: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201106/now-antidepressant-induced-chronic-depression-has-name-tardive-dysphoria?page=2

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:27 AM

Heres another article from you, which links to more relevant research, and talks about a number of relevant studies on the topic: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201106/now-antidepressant-induced-chronic-depression-has-name-tardive-dysphoria

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:26 AM

Heres another article from you, which links to more relevant research: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201106/now-antidepressant-induced-chronic-depression-has-name-tardive-dysphoria

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:20 AM

Anyway, if your concerned about drug tolerance/downregulation, anti-depressants causing an increase in depression/relapse, or SSRI withdrawl symptoms, talk to your psychiatrist about it. They do use some techniques, like switching medications, and adjusting dose, as loss of efficacy is quite common, so are withdrawls when stopping the drug, and relapse coming off the drug is also very high (all tolerance fx), all those are totally medically agknowledged even if psychiatrists arent generally aware of the increased risk of relapse overall long term.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 07:23 AM

Please, if you can manage it, at all, please be a little respectful instead of calling me "condescending" and "you anti drug people". At least read what I am saying, and respond to specific things ive said, instead of misinterpreting everything and making generalisations. Thanks!

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 07:21 AM

When did I assume anything about _you_ personally? Please, please calm down! I am not anti-drug _at all_. You seem to be being extreme reactive, and even thinking about what I am saying. I am warning of the logical and scientifically indicated problems with long term anti-depressants because I understand a fair bit about how they work, and how the brain works. I do not stigmatize people with emotional difficulties, or cognitive difficulties at all. I have been in that exact situation myself.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 07:02 AM

In fact I dare say I have had more personal interaction with mental health, and mentally ill people than most people with depression. I have personally been on a large variety of drugs for treatment. I wouldnt care so much about peoples outcomes otherwise, if I hadnt experience first hand what can happen to people left out in the cold emotionally, with nothing but a pill with only short term proven efficacy and a list of side effects longer than your arm.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 06:58 AM

I am curious. What advice did you get, when you had clinical depression? Apart from my caveat about dependance, withdrawl and tolerance to mind effecting drugs long term, I have heard all this exact same advice from councellers and psychiatrists myself during my long period of deep emotional depression. I know what its like, thats why I care about this topic. I also know many people for whom anti-depressants have become a lifelong trap, one of whom killed themselves...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 06:48 AM

Nasty! What advice do you think id have given that would have been detrimental exactly? Dont take anti-depressants long term? Talk to someone you trust to get understanding and try and improve your mood long term with sleep, sunlight, human contact, touch, excercise, changing your worldveiw, life circumstances, dealing with your emotions via therapy and proper diet? I am really not sure what "bad advice" you think I am giving. Be more specific, if you can...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 06:41 AM

Heres the article again about some research relating to what I am talking about, if you missed it the first time - cbsnews.com/… If you are concerned about tolerance, reversal of effects, or withdrawl, speak to your psychiatrist about it, they may have some helpful suggestions. If not, feel free to keep taking the medicines, its your choice of course..

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:39 AM

Heres the article again about some research relating to what I am talking about, if you missed it the first time - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20081076-10391704.html If you are concerned about tolerance, reversal of effects, or withdrawl, speak to your psychiatrist about it, they may have some helpful suggestions. If not, feel free to keep taking the medicines, its your choice, not mine.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:33 AM

your brain doesnt adjust as much...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:33 AM

I am not judging you or stigmatising you, at all. Depression is a very difficult experience, and I have no problem with medications in general, judgement wise, just that when it comes to brain based medications you can develop tolerance, and then get reversal of effects and withdrawl if you stop. If you need anti-depressants because your acutely depressed, go for it. If you need anti-anxiety medications because you acutely anxious, go for it. If you feel you need them long term, its worth being aware of this issue, using the minimal possible dose, and switching types so ..

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:25 AM

I am not judging you or stigmatising you, at all. Depression is a very difficult experience, and I have no problem with medications in general, judgement wise, just that when it comes to brain based medications you develop tolerance, and then get reversal of effects and withdrawl if you stop. If you need anti-depressants because your acutely depressed, go for it. If you need anti-anxiety medications because you acutely anxious, go for it. If you feel you need them long term, its worth being aware of this issue, using the minimal possible dose, and switching types.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:17 AM

You could possibly help avoid this effect, using anti-depressants, if you switched between different types of neuro action (SSRI > DARI etc). However long term your receptors will still become somewhat adapted even if you do this, but it may help. This is why for depression, I personally beleive anti-depressive medicines should be saved for acute and especially life threatening cases, for short term use, much like how anti-anxiety medicines are used.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:12 AM

Its the reason why the life of a heroin addict, or meth addict, isnt always a party, and it turns nasty. Its also why anti-depressants long term cause depression, and why people coming off them experience withdrawl. Unfortunately there are more or less no parts of the brain that dont experience up and down regulation, so there is basically no mind effecting drug that remains efficious for ever, taken every day.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:10 AM

Ill try and explain this simply. If a particular part of the brain is stimulated alot, it stops responding as much. A bit like when your skin becomes numb due to being slapped, or you adjust to being in hot or cold weather etc. Getting used to stuff, simply. If this part of the brain is keyed to mood, then if you stop stimulating the brain receptor, it will take a long time to normalise, you will feel depressed. After enough time, of stimulating the receptor, youll feel depressed. When it comes to drugs and alcohol, this well known phenomena is called tolerance.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 04:59 AM

You are welcome to keep using anti-depressant SSRIs if you so choose. But do not mislead other people into suggesting there is any good evidence that it works long term, or that theres any functional explaination of the action that suggests it should. On the contrary, the research suggests that long term use of anti-depressants, causes depression, like the research example I posted shows. And thats exactly what you'd expect from down regulation of the receptors due to overstimulation. Sorry if thats not what you want to hear....

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 04:53 AM

I know EXACTLY what i am talking about. A graduate degree in psychology, and years of private research into the brain, qualifies me to understand alot more about the brain such as up and down regulation, and mood in general than the average lay person. It enables me to critically examine scientific research myself. How is that scientific research I linked misinformation exactly? I am not daring to keep people from solutions, I am trying to let people know about dead end solutions, that are a trap.

31381cfeb5d6da6fc75f80ab68e041ea

(560)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:05 PM

i still get depressed sometimes, but it's not the deep hole that it was. carbs were HUGE for me. and taking supplements like GABA.

782d92f4127823bdfb2ddfcbcf961d0e

(5231)

on July 08, 2012
at 04:59 PM

Thank you, Shari. Also as one who has suffered from depression for most of my life I realize that this is a disease that will wax and wane as long as I live. Since eating paleo/primal I have gotten off my meds but I am under no illusions that I'm one stressor away from another major depressive episode. If and when I get to that point I want someone to get me to the help I need--yes, even if that includes medication. Honestly, I've had this so long that I couldn't possibly tell you that it is an adaptation to anything. Good? Are you kidding me?!

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 08, 2012
at 04:09 PM

You attitude is so beyond condescending it's laughable. How dare you assume I have not taken a holistic approach? In fact, I have. My meds are a part of my disease management. I also do yoga, acupuncture, and take supplements. See this is what makes my blood boil. You anti-drug people are causing harm to people. You need to stop and look at how you are continuing this oppressive stigmatization of mental illness. People with attitudes like this do so much hard to the mental healthy community. You like holistic? Fine. Promote that but NOT at the expense of medication management.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 08, 2012
at 04:04 PM

Jamie, with all due respect, you have NO idea what you are talking about. It is people like you who spew misinformation like this who perpetuate the stigma. Do I think everyone should be on meds for depression? Absolutely not. But how dare you try to keep people from finding solutions that can save their lives. You should be ashamed of yourself.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 08, 2012
at 03:36 PM

Jamie, as someone who has suffered from clinical depression a number of times, I'm damn glad I never met you when I needed advice.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 12:46 PM

A few select sciency nutritional connections to bipolar and mental illness: Choline - http://www.researchgate.net/publication/14331729_Choline_in_the_treatment_of_rapid-cycling_bipolar_disorder_clinical_and_neurochemical_findings_in_lithium-treated_patients Omega 3- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11780873?dopt=Abstract Vitamins and minerals - http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/bipolar-disorder/content/article/10168/55201

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 12:27 PM

Interesting thanks for sharing! Choline, which most people lack (even according to standard nutrient authorities, up to 60% of people are lacking), and so do "bipolars", and is found in eggs and meat, has been shown to treat "bipolar" in studies when given as a supplement. Meat is also rich in mood/brain precursors like tryptophan and tyrosine. I do myself wonder to what degree some aspects of "mental illness" is down to diet. Good luck to you, and make sure you keep the sunlight, sleep and human contact up!

B0dc9c33fb1b68387ea1376c5da280bd

(70)

on July 08, 2012
at 10:41 AM

After reading that again, that all being said, if depression is bad, many times it takes a lot of support to help a depressed person be able to change habits and thought patterns. Could depression be a catalyst for change? Sure, sometimes. Can depression be deadly? Absolutely. I don't think I would say it is a beneficial adaptation.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 09:04 AM

"I'm glad that you were able to come out of it, but it is dangerous to assume that others are able to do so.". How is that dangerous? I would think its more dangerous to assume people cant come out of it. Its certainly not what id want to hear, if I was still depressed! Hope is something you need to cling to like a limpit when your depressed.

535fafe8afe6923870905c707c4f4454

(720)

on July 08, 2012
at 08:54 AM

I've had 'teen' depression, post-MDMA depression, depression from life factors such as lack of partner and job getting me down for periods of time. Depression is terrible and I can see the problem that it is very difficult to fight through it (ie stop medication) because the depression kills the motivation to tough it out and is dangerous. I can say though that since going Paleo I rate my life as more worthless than ever (ie I damn well should be depressed comparing with history) but the chemical imbalance of the past is gone and I'm just OK!

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 08:50 AM

Removed, just in case its misconstrued. If this were a standard type forum, id have offered something alot more comprehensive and thorough, and well thought out, as actual advice (which it wasnt intended to be, only general ideas for those interested). But point taken, cheers.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 08:43 AM

Interesting notion. Its doubtful thats all there is too it, but certainly theres more to mood than whats obvious. Bacteria can contribute to mood. People tend to get heart attacks under emotional stress, due to inflammation. Mind you inflammation is kinda a research buzzword ATM, we are probably overemphasizing its role a little bit.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 08:33 AM

I think with something so new, the kind of frontal lobe existential awareness that makes us fear and suffer in new ways, its probably not adaptive, it only can be, and only sometimes (such as the person who changes their life, or the explorer/inventor/leader etc).

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 08:30 AM

I said "yes depression is adaptive" before in my answer. But its a complicated one. Depression may well have spured human discovery, invention, change and growth, but on the other hand, lower mammals and other animals do not merely give up. If a bird gets its foot stuck in ice, it keeps struggling. Giving up completely certainly isnt adaptive, unless it can be transformed back into motivation like other forms of pain. So far as i know, only higher mammals seem to get truely depressed, in the human sense. Only they perform ritualistic behaviour around their dead.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 08:00 AM

I never said anyone was weak or stupid. I certainly dont suggest that depressed people get no help whatsoever, merely that they might consider a more wholistic approach to mood in there personal search for mood balance - _long term_. The mind is a complex beast. And, fair enough, that this is not the right media for me to offer supported, detailled, personallised advice safely to the severely depressed. That was not really my intention.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:40 AM

of alien being. They have much in common with us, deep seated pain, and we treat them as outsiders, whom re cant talk to for fear of them harming us, or themselves. I dont think thats a fair, or helpful way to veiw human beings.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:38 AM

"In either case, you state you are a psychology graduate who does not believe in mental illness and encourages others not to seek treatment." - way to misrepresent what ive said. What I said was that anti-depressants, long term may well cause depression and relapse, and based on the neuropsychology, thats exactly what youd expect, and that I am not sure our treatment of mental illness is appropriate given "mentally ill" people always have traumas, negative emotional experience, difficult lives or negative worldviews. We treat them with this label, that holds them at arms length like some kind

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:32 AM

The most important thing when your really really depressed is to find empathy somewhere. That could be a counseller, a psychiatrist, a family member, a freind, or even just someone going through something similar. Reach out, thats _all the advice_ ill offer here, apart from do some research and think about it if you decide to use long term anti-depressants.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:25 AM

If was ever worried about someone commiting suicide, id try and talk to them, try and help, point them in a genuinely helpful direction rather than dusting off my hands and saying "see one of those expert fellas", to avoid responsibility, when just as often those experts arent much help. Yes, absolutely, see a doctor, see a psychiatrist. But dont treat their word or actions as divine gospel. Do your own research, make your own decisions. Take advice broadly, from many sources, and make up your own mind.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:21 AM

I brought up worship because people put an undue amount of trust in doctors and psychiatrists. They usually defer to them rather than get involved. Ive seen plenty of psychiatrists and doctors in my life, and my experience has been that they are very useful, but not worthy of that 100% deference or trust.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:18 AM

But being that it causes relapse, I do not consider it a safe treatment...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:17 AM

I guess if one was suicidal, it might make an okay very short term treatment...

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:17 AM

I do not have depression. I do not take anti-depressants, so there is no need to ask me why I would want to prolong something that I do not have.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:16 AM

Who is talking about worship? In either case, you state you are a psychology graduate who does not believe in mental illness and encourages others not to seek treatment. I think that is all we need to know. If you choose to act in a reckless manner, all I can do is sincerely hope that others are not harmed by it.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:15 AM

But anti-depressants cause relapse. Why would you want to prolong your depression?

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:14 AM

CBT is a good therapy. You can do it yourself without a therapist too, using a book, if your motivated to get better. Talk therapy is good too, but its the empathy that matters most there.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:12 AM

People put too much faith in doctors and psychiatrists. They are well educated, somewhat experienced, some of that education is great indepth information, some isnt. Science and university arent perfect. Its very proscriptive, bathed in hubris and legacy. They are falible people, often arrogant, and they spend alot of time covering their own arses. Use them, but dont worship them.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:06 AM

Additionally, as you should know as a psychology graduate, treatment does not have to include medication. Treatment can just be therapy, and I believe that REBT would be a great choice, without medication, for many depressed people (not all, and I would not tell an individual how to proceed with their treatment. I am only saying that as a general statement). However, many people simply can't afford it; and it is better to take medication, at least temporarily, than to have no treatment at all.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:01 AM

If you are encouraging people not to seek treatment, that is not doing good. That is doing harm, and you are playing with fire.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:01 AM

Theres nothing to indicate that what psychiatrists do is safe, or particularly helpful. Consider this - antidepressants cause relapse. Psychiatrists give long term anti-depressants. Depressed people commit suicide. Doesnt sound safe to me...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:57 AM

I am a psychology graduate...I would never try to fight the engrained veiws of the feild of psychiatry from within, any more than I would go into politics to improve democratic processes. I can do more good just talking to people around me, if they need help.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:56 AM

Actually I dont know if I beleive in "mental illness" either, at least in the psychiatric sense. Ive never met a bipolar, schizophrenic or depressed person who didnt have real trauma, difficult life circumstances, or a depressing worldveiw/philosophy. I think its a shame that we rob "mentally ill" people of there scarring and difficult emotional internal experiences by giving treating them like broken robots or aliens, or lepers, or porcelin dolls rather than offering what empathy we can

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:55 AM

If you truly believe in what you are saying - go into research! Go into development! I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinions, or that all your points are invalid. But don't be an amateur psychiatrist and endanger the lives and welfare of others. That is just irresponsible and dangerous.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:53 AM

Actually I dont know if I beleive in "mental illness" either, at least in the psychiatric sense. Ive never met a bipolar, schizophrenic or depressed person who didnt have real trauma, difficult life circumstances, emotions, or a depressing worldveiw/philosophy. I think its a shame that we rob "mentally ill" people of there scarring and difficult emotional or internal experiences by giving treating them like broken robots or aliens rather than offering what empathy we can.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:52 AM

I do not think that anyone's personal experience, advice, or offer of emotional support should be substituted for a mental health professional's treatment. Ever. No exceptions. If you don't "believe" in a documented disease, then that is something altogether different. It is NEVER worth risking someone else's life to be right. No matter what.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:52 AM

Actually I dont know if I beleive in "mental illness" either, at least in the psychiatric sense. Ive never met a bipolar, schizophrenic or depressed person who didnt have real trauma, difficult life circumstances, or a depressing worldveiw/philosophy. I think its a shame that we rob "mentally ill" people of there scarring and difficult emotional internal experiences by giving treating them like broken robots or aliens rather than offering what empathy we can.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:44 AM

Although agree about not giving casual advice. You at least need to be prepared to emotionally support someone, and provide detailed advice based on _personal experience_, if your going to get involved in someones deep emotions.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:41 AM

Anti-depressants _cause_ depression (see my other reply). Bad idea. I am not sure I beleive in "clinical depression" per se. I beleive in paralyzing and self-harmful bad mood. I beleive that can be severe and horrific and long lasting. I dont beleive its an incurable state, tho. I personally was majorly depressed for about 15 years of my life.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:24 AM

You seem keen on studies, so heres one regarding anti-depressants causing depression: http://www.frontiersin.org/Journal/Abstract.aspx?ART_DOI=10.3389/fpsyg.2011.00159&name=evolutionary_psychology&x=y And an article discussing it: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20081076-10391704.html. Its simple enough to understand if you understand neurons and the brain. It shocks me that all psychiatrists are taught about up and down regulation of receptors (aka tolerance and sensitivity), and yet they still prescibe long term psychoactive drugs.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:19 AM

And to the point that you adapted following your period of depression - that you were able to adapt does not make the disease itself adaptive. I'm glad that you were able to come out of it, but it is dangerous to assume that others are able to do so. Just because you did it doesn't mean everyone can. And if they can't, that doesn't necessarily make them weak, or stupid. You have no idea what their life is like or what their chemical imbalances may be.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:17 AM

Please don't go about giving "your personal prescription" to the mentally ill. I say that not to be condescending, but because you can cause harm, even with the best of intentions. An intellectual debate is all well and good, but even if you were right 99/100 times... the last time could be deadly. Do what's right for you - but please don't put someone else's health in jeopardy to try and prove a point.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:16 AM

I am always saddened when I hear of people that have gotten into the trap of long term anti-depressant use. Brain receptors when over stimulated down-regulate. When under stimulated they sensitise. They always seek the middle, they adjust. Your receptors will have gotten a work out from the anti-depressants, and basically switched off. Its no wonder you found it so hard coming off them. I am not offering you advise, depression can be terrible "disease" or not, its your life. But I really do hope you do some research into the long term effects of anti-depressants.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:09 AM

I do hope you realise that drug tolerance means that long term use of anti-depressants actually causes depression. They also cause withdrawl. These effects are exactly like all other drugs. If you dont know about effect reversal, or tolerance, with anti-depressants, it may be something you want to look in to.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:00 AM

So my personal prescription for depression would be - hug alot, talk to empathic freinds and family, make more freinds, pet a cat or express empathy outwards even to a plant, get more sunlight and excercise and eat right. Or something to that effect. Basically stimulate your BDNF and also 5ht1a.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:58 AM

The serenic receptor, 5ht1a, is anti-depressive, and anti-anxiety. It stimulates dopamine in certain brain regions (pleasure), produces gaba in others (calm), and increases this BDNF. Thats another strong correlate with depression/anxiety thats work looking up on wikipedia. The serenic receptor is stimulated by touch, orgasm, love and empathy, via the hormone oxytocin. Its also stimulated by anti-depressive herb albizzia, and the recreational drug MDMA (which has many other effects). Re: BGNF, that how the active in tumeric, curcumin produces its anti-depressive effects.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:53 AM

More than serotonin, or dopamine, a very very interesting neurological factor for depression is Brain-derived neurotrophic factor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-derived_neurotrophic_factor . Its stimulated by sunlight, excercise and human touch/empathy/the serenic receptor. Anti-depressants probably work by indirectly effecting the serenic receptor, and thus also increasing BDNF, as well as dampening anxiety and negative feelings in the serotonin family (which contrary to popular beleif produces more negative than positive feelings, hence why LSD can be so scary), and boosting dopamine.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:48 AM

More info on depression: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_(mood) http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/depression/complete-index.shtml

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:40 AM

"Emotions, including negative ones like sadness and anger, are normal and are adaptive. Depression is a disease. That is not adaptive." Having personally been very very depressed in the past, I disagree. My depression forced me, in the end, to examine my worldveiw and way of life, and make major changes that mere sadness would not have prompted.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:37 AM

track of only around one hundred people. If you compare ancient ways of life (small tight communties, strong sense of place/connection to the enviroment/philosopy, no touch taboo, lots of excercise and sunlight, natural sleep) with modern communities, from a psychology point of veiw, in the context of depression and mood, I personally realise that we are missing a great deal of basic psychological needs in modern society.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:32 AM

It could also be related to diet. But as I learnt in psychology, subjective wellbeing is strongly linked to three factors: 1) sense of place/purpose 2) community 3) freedom from restrictions. Those first two are more or less completely absent from modern society, especially community, and this makes sense when you compare modern society with natural society. As a psychhology graduate some of this stuff seems obvious to me. The human brain needs touch for oxytocin release. We need small communities because of advantage takers, sense of community and our natural instinct to remember and keep

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:31 AM

This study here, is one of many that links higher income countries with depression - http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1741-7015-9-90.pdf ...Theres probably some better ones, but I feel half arsed about proving something I personally see as obvious. If you put in "disease of cilivisation"/affluence and "depression", youll hit plenty of stuff to read if your interested.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:20 AM

"depression is a disease of civilisation" Really? Citations? " - really you need a citation? I thought it was a "well known fact" that depression is higher in first world countries, and increases in those countries every year....hmm okay, hang on ill do a quick google..

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:11 AM

Thank you for saying all that. <3 Depression is not my particular problem, but I do have a good idea of what a person with depression goes through. (I want to clarify that when I said I largely agree that depression is a disease of civilization, what I meant by that was that many things about our current civilization seem to aggravate or trigger the condition. I don't believe our ancestors lives were necessarily so brutal - emotionally, I think they probably had a whole lot better sense of security within their community than we do today, and I think that probably helped a great deal.)

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 04:49 AM

I agree with your first paragraph, in large part, and completely disagree with your second. Emotions, including negative ones like sadness and anger, are normal and are adaptive. Depression is a disease. That is not adaptive.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 08, 2012
at 04:42 AM

"depression is a disease of civilisation" Really? Citations?

C8b2136ef95ba6aac211825ff38cc0e9

(971)

on July 08, 2012
at 03:54 AM

On the other hand it could be induced by a dependence on refined carbs and then the removal?

  • 77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

    asked by

    (78467)
  • Views
    2.3K
  • Last Activity
    1403D AGO
Frontpage book

Get FREE instant access to our Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!

13 Answers

11
98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

on July 08, 2012
at 05:02 AM

I find this subject so completely frustrating. I think we need a new vocabulary related to this subject. Depression meaning appropriate sadness due to situation or depression caused by brain/body disease? People who do not have the disease have NO idea what it is to suffer and for that I am actually quite happy and grateful. This is something I would not wish on my worst enemy. I am a very happy and positive person (albeit with some attitude) yet I have suffered major depression almost all of my life. I am medicated now and have been for years. I will die taking medication. Major depression is a serious and progressive illness. It is not the blues. It is not appropriate feelings of sadness or loneliness or anger or anything similar. It requires diagnosis by a psychiatric professional not someone who is best suited to dealing with a yearly physical and the common cold. While I might agree that some docs are quick to the pill the social stigma against receiving treatment for any mental illness or issue is so intense and many people who need help are too ashamed or too afraid to get it. I think we need to be careful not to contribute to that. Honestly I can't imagine anyone in their right mind calling major depression a beneficial adaptation and if they did they I hope I'm not in the room when they do.

I have spoken of this before but I have tried several times to get off medication using diet and supplementation to no avail. I am done trying. Paleo doesn't fix everything. Some of us are still going to get sick and ALL of us are still going to die. If you imagine depression did not exist in our ancestors I beg to differ. I imagine there was a very heavy psychological burden living under such brutal conditions. Where did this idea come from that everything was sunshine in roses way back when? Everyone was in perfect health and nothing went wrong with anything ever? A disease of civilization? Hardly.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:16 AM

I am always saddened when I hear of people that have gotten into the trap of long term anti-depressant use. Brain receptors when over stimulated down-regulate. When under stimulated they sensitise. They always seek the middle, they adjust. Your receptors will have gotten a work out from the anti-depressants, and basically switched off. Its no wonder you found it so hard coming off them. I am not offering you advise, depression can be terrible "disease" or not, its your life. But I really do hope you do some research into the long term effects of anti-depressants.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:11 AM

Thank you for saying all that. <3 Depression is not my particular problem, but I do have a good idea of what a person with depression goes through. (I want to clarify that when I said I largely agree that depression is a disease of civilization, what I meant by that was that many things about our current civilization seem to aggravate or trigger the condition. I don't believe our ancestors lives were necessarily so brutal - emotionally, I think they probably had a whole lot better sense of security within their community than we do today, and I think that probably helped a great deal.)

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:09 AM

I do hope you realise that drug tolerance means that long term use of anti-depressants actually causes depression. They also cause withdrawl. These effects are exactly like all other drugs. If you dont know about effect reversal, or tolerance, with anti-depressants, it may be something you want to look in to.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 08, 2012
at 04:04 PM

Jamie, with all due respect, you have NO idea what you are talking about. It is people like you who spew misinformation like this who perpetuate the stigma. Do I think everyone should be on meds for depression? Absolutely not. But how dare you try to keep people from finding solutions that can save their lives. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:25 AM

I am not judging you or stigmatising you, at all. Depression is a very difficult experience, and I have no problem with medications in general, judgement wise, just that when it comes to brain based medications you develop tolerance, and then get reversal of effects and withdrawl if you stop. If you need anti-depressants because your acutely depressed, go for it. If you need anti-anxiety medications because you acutely anxious, go for it. If you feel you need them long term, its worth being aware of this issue, using the minimal possible dose, and switching types.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 04:53 AM

I know EXACTLY what i am talking about. A graduate degree in psychology, and years of private research into the brain, qualifies me to understand alot more about the brain such as up and down regulation, and mood in general than the average lay person. It enables me to critically examine scientific research myself. How is that scientific research I linked misinformation exactly? I am not daring to keep people from solutions, I am trying to let people know about dead end solutions, that are a trap.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:10 AM

Ill try and explain this simply. If a particular part of the brain is stimulated alot, it stops responding as much. A bit like when your skin becomes numb due to being slapped, or you adjust to being in hot or cold weather etc. Getting used to stuff, simply. If this part of the brain is keyed to mood, then if you stop stimulating the brain receptor, it will take a long time to normalise, you will feel depressed. After enough time, of stimulating the receptor, youll feel depressed. When it comes to drugs and alcohol, this well known phenomena is called tolerance.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:24 AM

You seem keen on studies, so heres one regarding anti-depressants causing depression: http://www.frontiersin.org/Journal/Abstract.aspx?ART_DOI=10.3389/fpsyg.2011.00159&name=evolutionary_psychology&x=y And an article discussing it: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20081076-10391704.html. Its simple enough to understand if you understand neurons and the brain. It shocks me that all psychiatrists are taught about up and down regulation of receptors (aka tolerance and sensitivity), and yet they still prescibe long term psychoactive drugs.

782d92f4127823bdfb2ddfcbcf961d0e

(5231)

on July 08, 2012
at 04:59 PM

Thank you, Shari. Also as one who has suffered from depression for most of my life I realize that this is a disease that will wax and wane as long as I live. Since eating paleo/primal I have gotten off my meds but I am under no illusions that I'm one stressor away from another major depressive episode. If and when I get to that point I want someone to get me to the help I need--yes, even if that includes medication. Honestly, I've had this so long that I couldn't possibly tell you that it is an adaptation to anything. Good? Are you kidding me?!

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 04:59 AM

You are welcome to keep using anti-depressant SSRIs if you so choose. But do not mislead other people into suggesting there is any good evidence that it works long term, or that theres any functional explaination of the action that suggests it should. On the contrary, the research suggests that long term use of anti-depressants, causes depression, like the research example I posted shows. And thats exactly what you'd expect from down regulation of the receptors due to overstimulation. Sorry if thats not what you want to hear....

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:26 AM

Heres another article from you, which links to more relevant research: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201106/now-antidepressant-induced-chronic-depression-has-name-tardive-dysphoria

535fafe8afe6923870905c707c4f4454

(720)

on July 08, 2012
at 08:54 AM

I've had 'teen' depression, post-MDMA depression, depression from life factors such as lack of partner and job getting me down for periods of time. Depression is terrible and I can see the problem that it is very difficult to fight through it (ie stop medication) because the depression kills the motivation to tough it out and is dangerous. I can say though that since going Paleo I rate my life as more worthless than ever (ie I damn well should be depressed comparing with history) but the chemical imbalance of the past is gone and I'm just OK!

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:27 AM

Heres another article from you, which links to more relevant research, and talks about a number of relevant studies on the topic: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201106/now-antidepressant-induced-chronic-depression-has-name-tardive-dysphoria

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:17 AM

You could possibly help avoid this effect, using anti-depressants, if you switched between different types of neuro action (SSRI > DARI etc). However long term your receptors will still become somewhat adapted even if you do this, but it may help. This is why for depression, I personally beleive anti-depressive medicines should be saved for acute and especially life threatening cases, for short term use, much like how anti-anxiety medicines are used.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:39 AM

Heres the article again about some research relating to what I am talking about, if you missed it the first time - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20081076-10391704.html If you are concerned about tolerance, reversal of effects, or withdrawl, speak to your psychiatrist about it, they may have some helpful suggestions. If not, feel free to keep taking the medicines, its your choice, not mine.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:20 AM

Anyway, if your concerned about drug tolerance/downregulation, anti-depressants causing an increase in depression/relapse, or SSRI withdrawl symptoms, talk to your psychiatrist about it. They do use some techniques, like switching medications, and adjusting dose, as loss of efficacy is quite common, so are withdrawls when stopping the drug, and relapse coming off the drug is also very high (all tolerance fx), all those are totally medically agknowledged even if psychiatrists arent generally aware of the increased risk of relapse overall long term.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:33 AM

I am not judging you or stigmatising you, at all. Depression is a very difficult experience, and I have no problem with medications in general, judgement wise, just that when it comes to brain based medications you can develop tolerance, and then get reversal of effects and withdrawl if you stop. If you need anti-depressants because your acutely depressed, go for it. If you need anti-anxiety medications because you acutely anxious, go for it. If you feel you need them long term, its worth being aware of this issue, using the minimal possible dose, and switching types so ..

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:33 AM

your brain doesnt adjust as much...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:31 AM

Heres another article for you, which links to more relevant research, and talks about a number of relevant studies on the topic: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201106/now-antidepressant-induced-chronic-depression-has-name-tardive-dysphoria?page=2

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 05:12 AM

Its the reason why the life of a heroin addict, or meth addict, isnt always a party, and it turns nasty. Its also why anti-depressants long term cause depression, and why people coming off them experience withdrawl. Unfortunately there are more or less no parts of the brain that dont experience up and down regulation, so there is basically no mind effecting drug that remains efficious for ever, taken every day.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 06:41 AM

Heres the article again about some research relating to what I am talking about, if you missed it the first time - cbsnews.com/… If you are concerned about tolerance, reversal of effects, or withdrawl, speak to your psychiatrist about it, they may have some helpful suggestions. If not, feel free to keep taking the medicines, its your choice of course..

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:36 AM

And, BTW, I am sorry that what I am saying, whatever you choose to make of it, is not exactly nice to hear if one is on long term anti-depressants, and suffer from depression. I havent failed to give that thought, and I am sorry if thats upsetting at all! At least if you choose to keep using medicines in your situation, this information might help you select good strategies with your psychiatrist to minimise these effects as is possible, from medications, like swapping the medical actions of the drugs a bit.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 11:40 AM

Anyway, the whole thing makes me sick to the stomach, so thats enough of that...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 10:45 AM

But your right, we should probably stop engaging each other.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 10:43 AM

Instead I hope sincerely that our society wakes the hell up, and sees the lonely, uncaring, communitiless army of lost and confused people its creating, the giant tide of mental illness in western society, the constantly escalating suicide numbers and realises that a band aid is not enough. What people need is _real_ caring.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 10, 2012
at 04:27 AM

Jamie I'm not going to engage with you anymore.I believe you mean well but clearly you have some issues around this subject as do I. Clearly you have no actual experience with the matter which is problematic.This is also not the case for me.I have been unfortunate enough to suffer and almost die from this deadly disease.I have also had the misfortune to work in the mental health field and had to witness the deaths of others from this disease.I can only hope that people who need help will not have the misfortune of running into you or anyone like you who reads but does not understand a thing.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 11:38 AM

When I was in mental hospital, it got to the point, where the staff nurses would ask _me_ to go talk to the disturbed patients, to make them feel heard, empathised w/ and more comfortable. I went in there as a patient, and ending up doing their job. Almost (not all) everyone who works in mental health, especially wards, simply shouldnt IMO. They mostly hate their jobs, and stand behind a wall of uncaring. It takes real compassion for those jobs, and I dont think they generally have it, they only have a selfish desire to add meaning to their own limited lives & never reconcil the conflict.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 10:35 AM

I have been depressed, very, many years. Abused drugs to escape. Attempted suicide twice, once by drowning, once by overdose. Been on a swath of different anti-depressants. Been in mental hospitals. Seen shrinks a hundred times or more. Know lots of people who are on anti-depressants. One commited suicide about a year ago. My persion experience, of which I have a fair bit, despite your assumption, is that anti-depressants keep you depressed. That matches with the above research I posted. I still wonder if my freind who killed themselves could have kicked there depression

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 11:29 AM

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/The_Role_of_Sense_of_Belonging_and_Social_Support_on_Stress_and_Depression_in.pdf What I find most appalling, downright mindboggling, is that nuturing friendships, improving social skills, excercise, light, proper sleep, a sense of purpose or meaning in life, worldveiw (except in the case of DBT/CBT/mindfullness), diet or any contributor to happiness or sadness - none of these things are typically in a psychiatrists treatment regime. Instead you "talk about our feelings" (to stranger with a generally stilted and faked sense of compassion) and take a pill.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 11:34 AM

Its horrific! The people in mental hospitals are in the most terrible situations, horrible lives, hopeless, confused, messed up, directionless and then further robbed of power or expression by their psychiatrist. At least case managers and councillers do more useful things to actually help you. Many people often need advocates in those situations because they are so beaten down, both by life, and by the system they find themselves in. Some just drift in and out of the wards, like prison accustomed criminals. Talk about stigmatised - the crazy "treatment" and the labels.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 10:55 AM

if theyd simply never gone onto the pills. Yes this is personal, for you and for me. You know what, I think ill try and ignore your assumptions and your bitter parting shot. Instead Ill say this. I simply hope that our society wakes up, and sees the lonely, uncaring, communitiless army of lost and confused people its creating, the giant tide of mental illness, the constantly escalating suicide numbers and realises that a band aid is not enough. People need real purpose. They need real caring. They need real lives. Sadly, the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff is only going to get busier.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 12, 2012
at 03:16 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/nbc-jesse-jackson-jr-rehab-alcoholism-addiction-221954580.html So sad to see this. Probably depression that was self-medicated with alcohol due to the stigma attacked with proper medical treatment for the disease. Jamie I'm glad you found something that is working for you and that you are well.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 11, 2012
at 10:39 AM

if theyd simply never gone onto the pills. Yes this is personal, for you and for me. So, thusly, I am going to match your closing remark, bitterness for bitterness - I can only hope that people who need help will not fall into the trap of long term poorly understood drugs with only short term proven efficacy, or anyone like you, or people like you in the mental illness profession for whom emotions and difficulties are not things which to empathise with, understand, or to offer _real_ practical support, but instead to medicate, offer due negligance, and then ignore when the clock turns to five.

59fa7cd87fb9d669adf21e5cf3e7ada5

on October 23, 2012
at 01:13 PM

Hey Shari don't know if you still follow this thread but I'm on the lifetime plan re anti-depressants myself, started when I was 19 (my only suicide attempt) and has continued throughout my life, I take a short "vacation" from them every few years and it's the same old thing without them, people don't understand how bad depression is.

7
B0dc9c33fb1b68387ea1376c5da280bd

on July 08, 2012
at 10:32 AM

I have suffered severe depression throughout my life- to the point I have been hospitalized several times. There is a HUGE difference between the sadness, stress and struggle of life and the deep, hopeless dispair of depression. The former can motivate and inspire to change things while the latter feels as though there is nothing you can do about it. Since I have been paleo, life has been good. Is it easy? Am I always happy and stress free? No. However, since I have been paleo, I have been giving my body what it needs to function. Fish oil, good nutrients and vitamins, no grains or dairy to keep my gut happy and allow only the good stuff into my bloodstream. I also work out more (which changes brain chemistry tremendously) and am sure to try and get the sunlight that I can. The energy is there to be able to connect with others, which is also lessens depression. Our bodies know what to do and how to function and make (mostly) what we need (ie. serotonin & other neurotransmitters) provided we give them what, as animals, they need without poisoning them with stuff the is fake and we were not designed to eat.

B0dc9c33fb1b68387ea1376c5da280bd

(70)

on July 08, 2012
at 10:41 AM

After reading that again, that all being said, if depression is bad, many times it takes a lot of support to help a depressed person be able to change habits and thought patterns. Could depression be a catalyst for change? Sure, sometimes. Can depression be deadly? Absolutely. I don't think I would say it is a beneficial adaptation.

6
Af2662fc82df87952abb3fdf16b20aa4

(410)

on July 08, 2012
at 12:08 PM

I've suffered with depression since the age of 13 (now 20) and was diagnosed with bipolar disorder 3 years ago and treated with anti-psychotic medications.

My mood pattern over the last 7 years has been very predictable - 2 episodes of depression a year, one over the winter for around 4-5 months and another usually around a month long in the late spring, both of which followed a brief period of 'mania'.

Last year in October the depression that I presumed was inevitable struck again and I noticed that with it my consumption of sugar and junk fold absolutely exploded. Prior to that I'd been eating the traditional 'healthy' diet (I'd say SAD but I'm British :p) of whole grains, not too much red meat and lots of fruit and veg. I was doing 30mins of strength training 3 times a week and ran 5k 4 times a week. I thought I was living my life in the optimal way so was very discouraged when the depression struck again, and my sugar cravings went through the roof.

Suddenly I was spending ??20 a day on junk (crisps, chocolate, cakes, biscuits, fizzy drinks etc.), I stopped exercising and I stopped leaving my university flat (apart from to grab junk food) and stopped interacting with my flatmates. The only human contact I had was with my GP once a week to increase my meds.

The depression got worse and worse (and I assume this now to be a result of my appalling diet and lack of human contact/ sunlight) and eventually in January I was hospitalised (psychiatric) after being prescribed yet another med which made me extremely impulsive and agitated, leading me to come within about half an hour of killing myself.The only reason I'm still here to day is because the psychiatric nurse assigned to me phoned me up to see how I was doing before I managed to put my suicide plan into action.

Once in hospital I was dosed up on benzos and released after a week once I was judged to no longer be a risk to myself. I went back to binging on sugar and avoiding human interaction and was back in hospital a fortnight later. When I was eventually released the second time I was determined to find out what I had done wrong to get depressed again even though according to the medical community I was "doing everything right".

I stumbled across Paleo and dived straight into it. I saw an improvement in my symptoms within a week, and things continued to get better for a few weeks until eventually I felt as good as I had before my first episode of depression when I was 13. I felt clear-headed, alert, my memory improvemed, my motivation returned. I wanted to run and skip and read and laugh.

Despite the vast improvement (I would go as far as to say complete reversal) of my symptoms, my psychiatrist and nurse told me that I was not eating healthily and that they were concerned I was slipping back into my old days of disordered eating like when I was 14 and 15. I was willing to listen to them, so I did an experiment with myself - I went back to the "healthy" eating, and sure enough, back came the fatigue and the lack of motivation, back came the anxiety and the self-doubt. I went back to eating Paleo and my symptoms again disappeared. I no longer even get time of the month cravings or PMS. I feel perfect!

I made the decision to come off my medication and in a months time I will be med-free for the first time in 5 years. I'm being careful not to get too ahead of myself because I know my illness has been a recurrant and persistant one, and that this lifestyle might not be the answer to everything, but deep down I think that this lifestyle is the thing that will save me.

My doctors still look at me like I'm a bit mad when I claim that changing the way I eat, sleep, exercise (lots of walking, heavy lifting twice a week; HIIT twice a week) and relax has fixed every complaint that I had, but I know that it's worked for me so I don't waste energy (or risk causing stress) by arguing with them.

Apologies for the length of this post but it's a topic that I'm really passionate about. My parents are still suspicious of the Paleo diet (at least they have no problems with the sleeping/ exercising/ relaxing part) but they can see a huge difference in me so are agreeing to go along with it for now (though there's no chance as yet of them joining me in this lifestyle, sadly).

To actually answer the question (haha, took me enough time to reach this point) - I would say that once the episode of depression has lifted I do feel more in touch with myself, and it's certainly increased my empathy and sensitivity for/to others. I've become a quieter, more thoughtful person and I think some of that is down to the huge amount of self-reflection that I've done over the years when I was searching for what was going wrong. Whether these qualities would have been useful evoloutionarily speaking, I do not know, but they come in very handy in the present day when studying for my degree because I can take my time with my reading and writing and now I'm Paleo I don't waste dozens of hours a week recovering from hangovers and oversleeping like I used to. ;)

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 12:27 PM

Interesting thanks for sharing! Choline, which most people lack (even according to standard nutrient authorities, up to 60% of people are lacking), and so do "bipolars", and is found in eggs and meat, has been shown to treat "bipolar" in studies when given as a supplement. Meat is also rich in mood/brain precursors like tryptophan and tyrosine. I do myself wonder to what degree some aspects of "mental illness" is down to diet. Good luck to you, and make sure you keep the sunlight, sleep and human contact up!

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 12:46 PM

A few select sciency nutritional connections to bipolar and mental illness: Choline - http://www.researchgate.net/publication/14331729_Choline_in_the_treatment_of_rapid-cycling_bipolar_disorder_clinical_and_neurochemical_findings_in_lithium-treated_patients Omega 3- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11780873?dopt=Abstract Vitamins and minerals - http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/bipolar-disorder/content/article/10168/55201

Af2662fc82df87952abb3fdf16b20aa4

(410)

on July 09, 2012
at 10:44 AM

Thanks for the links Jamie. I find the connections between mental health/ the brain and diet and lifestyle really interesting. I think for myself the omega 3:6 ratio has been important so that's something I keep a close eye on too.

9beda76f4e91faedc8fa70ecdc01251e

(298)

on July 24, 2012
at 08:05 PM

Thanks for sharing, Oz. I didn't have that level of depression, but what I did have is so much better on paleo. I tend towards melancholy anyway, but that's manageable. I notice an increase if I have too many cheat-foods...

5
61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 03:54 AM

I would just like to say that sadness and stress are normal; depression is not. What you have described sounds like sadness and stress, not depression, though since we don't know what else may be going on in this person's life now or in the past, we have no way of telling.

That being said, a lot of times people want a quick fix because they are upset about something going on in their lives, like you said, and the doctor writes the prescription because that is what doctors do, and because many times, if they don't, the person will just go to another doctor until they get the answer and the pills they want.

Depression is a mental illness. Totally a separate thing. (Often over-diagnosed both by physicians and people who like Web MD, IMHO, but that doesn't lessen the gravity of the situation for someone who actually has the disease.) For people who are actually clinically depressed, diet can make a BIG BIG BIG difference, but it is not a cure-all. That person still needs psychotherapy, and possibly medication.

I believe that medication should be a last resort, not the first option, but unfortunately that's just not the way it usually works likely because medication is a lot cheaper than therapy and a lot easier than changing your diet.

I would never judge anyone or give them advice about mental illness, because it is easy to do more harm than you are capable of realizing if that person is mentally ill. If they are mentally ill, you can't expect them to take what you are saying at face value and look at it logically. They may be able to do that; they may not. You just don't know. You just don't know all the factors that could be involved. Mental illness is complicated. I would never, ever tell an individual what to do when it comes to their mental health, other than to see a doctor and wish them the best and let them know I am there for them (if we have that kind of relationship). Even if you are 100% right, it's just not worth the risk, especially when it's not your health you're risking. I can't stress enough how dangerous it can be.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:16 AM

Who is talking about worship? In either case, you state you are a psychology graduate who does not believe in mental illness and encourages others not to seek treatment. I think that is all we need to know. If you choose to act in a reckless manner, all I can do is sincerely hope that others are not harmed by it.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:01 AM

If you are encouraging people not to seek treatment, that is not doing good. That is doing harm, and you are playing with fire.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:18 AM

But being that it causes relapse, I do not consider it a safe treatment...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:01 AM

Theres nothing to indicate that what psychiatrists do is safe, or particularly helpful. Consider this - antidepressants cause relapse. Psychiatrists give long term anti-depressants. Depressed people commit suicide. Doesnt sound safe to me...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:17 AM

I guess if one was suicidal, it might make an okay very short term treatment...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:12 AM

People put too much faith in doctors and psychiatrists. They are well educated, somewhat experienced, some of that education is great indepth information, some isnt. Science and university arent perfect. Its very proscriptive, bathed in hubris and legacy. They are falible people, often arrogant, and they spend alot of time covering their own arses. Use them, but dont worship them.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:44 AM

Although agree about not giving casual advice. You at least need to be prepared to emotionally support someone, and provide detailed advice based on _personal experience_, if your going to get involved in someones deep emotions.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:17 AM

I do not have depression. I do not take anti-depressants, so there is no need to ask me why I would want to prolong something that I do not have.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:57 AM

I am a psychology graduate...I would never try to fight the engrained veiws of the feild of psychiatry from within, any more than I would go into politics to improve democratic processes. I can do more good just talking to people around me, if they need help.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:52 AM

I do not think that anyone's personal experience, advice, or offer of emotional support should be substituted for a mental health professional's treatment. Ever. No exceptions. If you don't "believe" in a documented disease, then that is something altogether different. It is NEVER worth risking someone else's life to be right. No matter what.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:21 AM

I brought up worship because people put an undue amount of trust in doctors and psychiatrists. They usually defer to them rather than get involved. Ive seen plenty of psychiatrists and doctors in my life, and my experience has been that they are very useful, but not worthy of that 100% deference or trust.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:15 AM

But anti-depressants cause relapse. Why would you want to prolong your depression?

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:06 AM

Additionally, as you should know as a psychology graduate, treatment does not have to include medication. Treatment can just be therapy, and I believe that REBT would be a great choice, without medication, for many depressed people (not all, and I would not tell an individual how to proceed with their treatment. I am only saying that as a general statement). However, many people simply can't afford it; and it is better to take medication, at least temporarily, than to have no treatment at all.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:32 AM

The most important thing when your really really depressed is to find empathy somewhere. That could be a counseller, a psychiatrist, a family member, a freind, or even just someone going through something similar. Reach out, thats _all the advice_ ill offer here, apart from do some research and think about it if you decide to use long term anti-depressants.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:14 AM

CBT is a good therapy. You can do it yourself without a therapist too, using a book, if your motivated to get better. Talk therapy is good too, but its the empathy that matters most there.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:56 AM

Actually I dont know if I beleive in "mental illness" either, at least in the psychiatric sense. Ive never met a bipolar, schizophrenic or depressed person who didnt have real trauma, difficult life circumstances, or a depressing worldveiw/philosophy. I think its a shame that we rob "mentally ill" people of there scarring and difficult emotional internal experiences by giving treating them like broken robots or aliens, or lepers, or porcelin dolls rather than offering what empathy we can

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:41 AM

Anti-depressants _cause_ depression (see my other reply). Bad idea. I am not sure I beleive in "clinical depression" per se. I beleive in paralyzing and self-harmful bad mood. I beleive that can be severe and horrific and long lasting. I dont beleive its an incurable state, tho. I personally was majorly depressed for about 15 years of my life.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 06:58 AM

I am curious. What advice did you get, when you had clinical depression? Apart from my caveat about dependance, withdrawl and tolerance to mind effecting drugs long term, I have heard all this exact same advice from councellers and psychiatrists myself during my long period of deep emotional depression. I know what its like, thats why I care about this topic. I also know many people for whom anti-depressants have become a lifelong trap, one of whom killed themselves...

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 08, 2012
at 03:36 PM

Jamie, as someone who has suffered from clinical depression a number of times, I'm damn glad I never met you when I needed advice.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:55 AM

If you truly believe in what you are saying - go into research! Go into development! I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinions, or that all your points are invalid. But don't be an amateur psychiatrist and endanger the lives and welfare of others. That is just irresponsible and dangerous.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:25 AM

If was ever worried about someone commiting suicide, id try and talk to them, try and help, point them in a genuinely helpful direction rather than dusting off my hands and saying "see one of those expert fellas", to avoid responsibility, when just as often those experts arent much help. Yes, absolutely, see a doctor, see a psychiatrist. But dont treat their word or actions as divine gospel. Do your own research, make your own decisions. Take advice broadly, from many sources, and make up your own mind.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:52 AM

Actually I dont know if I beleive in "mental illness" either, at least in the psychiatric sense. Ive never met a bipolar, schizophrenic or depressed person who didnt have real trauma, difficult life circumstances, or a depressing worldveiw/philosophy. I think its a shame that we rob "mentally ill" people of there scarring and difficult emotional internal experiences by giving treating them like broken robots or aliens rather than offering what empathy we can.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:53 AM

Actually I dont know if I beleive in "mental illness" either, at least in the psychiatric sense. Ive never met a bipolar, schizophrenic or depressed person who didnt have real trauma, difficult life circumstances, emotions, or a depressing worldveiw/philosophy. I think its a shame that we rob "mentally ill" people of there scarring and difficult emotional or internal experiences by giving treating them like broken robots or aliens rather than offering what empathy we can.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:40 AM

of alien being. They have much in common with us, deep seated pain, and we treat them as outsiders, whom re cant talk to for fear of them harming us, or themselves. I dont think thats a fair, or helpful way to veiw human beings.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 06:48 AM

Nasty! What advice do you think id have given that would have been detrimental exactly? Dont take anti-depressants long term? Talk to someone you trust to get understanding and try and improve your mood long term with sleep, sunlight, human contact, touch, excercise, changing your worldveiw, life circumstances, dealing with your emotions via therapy and proper diet? I am really not sure what "bad advice" you think I am giving. Be more specific, if you can...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:38 AM

"In either case, you state you are a psychology graduate who does not believe in mental illness and encourages others not to seek treatment." - way to misrepresent what ive said. What I said was that anti-depressants, long term may well cause depression and relapse, and based on the neuropsychology, thats exactly what youd expect, and that I am not sure our treatment of mental illness is appropriate given "mentally ill" people always have traumas, negative emotional experience, difficult lives or negative worldviews. We treat them with this label, that holds them at arms length like some kind

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 07:02 AM

In fact I dare say I have had more personal interaction with mental health, and mentally ill people than most people with depression. I have personally been on a large variety of drugs for treatment. I wouldnt care so much about peoples outcomes otherwise, if I hadnt experience first hand what can happen to people left out in the cold emotionally, with nothing but a pill with only short term proven efficacy and a list of side effects longer than your arm.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:39 AM

In fact I dare say I have had more personal interaction with mental health, and mentally ill people than most people with depression. I have personally been on a large variety of drugs for treatment. I wouldnt care so much about peoples outcomes otherwise, if I hadnt experienced first hand what can happen to people left out in the cold emotionally, with nothing but a pill with only short term proven efficacy

Ab136abf1904c5f7908f3df596bf18c3

(80)

on December 24, 2012
at 09:10 PM

To those who feel psychiatric drugs have helped them I'd like to wish them well. I don't feel you shouldn't have taken them, merely that in many cases they are misused by the medical profession and that the misinformation provided to prospective users is disgusting. I would urge you not to automatically assume that the those who are most critical of those drugs and the system are those with no experience of what we label mental illness. I can assure you that in my experience such passion is usually born from outrage at how we were treated and misled during exactly such experiences.

Ab136abf1904c5f7908f3df596bf18c3

(80)

on December 24, 2012
at 09:00 PM

I know I'm late to this but I have to say that a friend like Jamie sounds like could have had a dramatically positive influence on the direction my life took. I ended up finding out the hard way that I agree with him. The way that marketing and politics dominates the so called science when it comes to psychiatric drugs is a scandalous human rights abuse. Perhaps they can be useful in some situations, and everyone is free to make their own decisions, but people deserve to make those decisions with access to what science knows, not merely what marketing propagates.

3
1e58ba5c171a122541d8b4873f604327

on July 08, 2012
at 06:28 AM

Depression is often directly linked to systematic inflammation. (I suggest a google search) Though we still don't know the exact link between endorphin production, inflammation, and depression, we do know there is a link.

In addition, certain foods can directly cause the release of neuro-chemicals and subsequent down regulation of neurotransmitter production if they are eaten regularly. Obvious examples are sugar and most processed carbs.

In other words, if your body gets used to "feel good" chemicals coming from food, it stops being as good at making it's own feel-good chemicals. I'm not sure of the mechanism of inflammation's role in depression, but there are plenty of studies out there.

Being sad about something is a natural reaction. Crying even prompts the release of endorphins! But depression is different. It's my belief that being sad about something like a traumatic loss can lead to depression if you are also eating sub-optimally and have chronic inflammation.

There may be other causes of depression other than diet, but with this theory the depression is actually cause by the body's physical response to the stress of a traumatic memory or other mental maladies. In other words, psychology doesn't cause depression directly, rather psychological trauma causes a physical stress response, which if chronic can cause systematic inflammation, which has been linked to depression.

-pete

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 08:43 AM

Interesting notion. Its doubtful thats all there is too it, but certainly theres more to mood than whats obvious. Bacteria can contribute to mood. People tend to get heart attacks under emotional stress, due to inflammation. Mind you inflammation is kinda a research buzzword ATM, we are probably overemphasizing its role a little bit.

1e58ba5c171a122541d8b4873f604327

(229)

on July 10, 2012
at 03:39 AM

Yeah inflammation has achieved a bit of buzzword status. Maybe we are overemphasizing it... on the other hand there are some really interesting studies about ibprofoun (spelling?) Treating depression.... I believe they were double blind etc but haven't read them myself. it amazes me how little we know about the human body

2
B8592e62f9804ddabae73c1103d6bcb9

(1956)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:06 PM

Depression is not an adaptation, it is either caused by nutrient deficiencies (such as B12, choline, zinc, B6, amino acids, etc), or lack of human givens.

Givens are: Security ??? safe territory and an environment which allows full maturity and development Attention (to give and receive it) ??? a form of "mental nutrition" Sense of autonomy and control ??? having volition to make responsible choices Being emotionally connected to others Feeling part of a wider community Friendship and intimacy with someone who is accepting of the total person, flaws included Privacy ??? opportunity to reflect and consolidate experience Sense of status within social groupings Sense of competence and achievement Meaning and purpose

As you can see our society doesn't provide Givens very well and so we feel depressed, and we use words like 'empty' and 'meaningless' to describe our lives because in a sense they are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Givens

2
Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 03:42 AM

Except that depression is a disease of civilisation, so its certainly triggered by unnatural living, such as lack of human touch, sunlight, proper sleep, a lack of sense of place/worldveiw and lack of community, as well as singular events.

But i agree that its adaptive (edit: revised thought, its probably not overall adaptive, even though it can be sometimes as a motivator)

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:19 AM

And to the point that you adapted following your period of depression - that you were able to adapt does not make the disease itself adaptive. I'm glad that you were able to come out of it, but it is dangerous to assume that others are able to do so. Just because you did it doesn't mean everyone can. And if they can't, that doesn't necessarily make them weak, or stupid. You have no idea what their life is like or what their chemical imbalances may be.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:32 AM

It could also be related to diet. But as I learnt in psychology, subjective wellbeing is strongly linked to three factors: 1) sense of place/purpose 2) community 3) freedom from restrictions. Those first two are more or less completely absent from modern society, especially community, and this makes sense when you compare modern society with natural society. As a psychhology graduate some of this stuff seems obvious to me. The human brain needs touch for oxytocin release. We need small communities because of advantage takers, sense of community and our natural instinct to remember and keep

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 08, 2012
at 04:42 AM

"depression is a disease of civilisation" Really? Citations?

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:40 AM

"Emotions, including negative ones like sadness and anger, are normal and are adaptive. Depression is a disease. That is not adaptive." Having personally been very very depressed in the past, I disagree. My depression forced me, in the end, to examine my worldveiw and way of life, and make major changes that mere sadness would not have prompted.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 08:00 AM

I never said anyone was weak or stupid. I certainly dont suggest that depressed people get no help whatsoever, merely that they might consider a more wholistic approach to mood in there personal search for mood balance - _long term_. The mind is a complex beast. And, fair enough, that this is not the right media for me to offer supported, detailled, personallised advice safely to the severely depressed. That was not really my intention.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:00 AM

So my personal prescription for depression would be - hug alot, talk to empathic freinds and family, make more freinds, pet a cat or express empathy outwards even to a plant, get more sunlight and excercise and eat right. Or something to that effect. Basically stimulate your BDNF and also 5ht1a.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 04:49 AM

I agree with your first paragraph, in large part, and completely disagree with your second. Emotions, including negative ones like sadness and anger, are normal and are adaptive. Depression is a disease. That is not adaptive.

C8b2136ef95ba6aac211825ff38cc0e9

(971)

on July 08, 2012
at 03:54 AM

On the other hand it could be induced by a dependence on refined carbs and then the removal?

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 08, 2012
at 04:09 PM

You attitude is so beyond condescending it's laughable. How dare you assume I have not taken a holistic approach? In fact, I have. My meds are a part of my disease management. I also do yoga, acupuncture, and take supplements. See this is what makes my blood boil. You anti-drug people are causing harm to people. You need to stop and look at how you are continuing this oppressive stigmatization of mental illness. People with attitudes like this do so much hard to the mental healthy community. You like holistic? Fine. Promote that but NOT at the expense of medication management.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:20 AM

"depression is a disease of civilisation" Really? Citations? " - really you need a citation? I thought it was a "well known fact" that depression is higher in first world countries, and increases in those countries every year....hmm okay, hang on ill do a quick google..

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 08:50 AM

Removed, just in case its misconstrued. If this were a standard type forum, id have offered something alot more comprehensive and thorough, and well thought out, as actual advice (which it wasnt intended to be, only general ideas for those interested). But point taken, cheers.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 07:23 AM

Please, if you can manage it, at all, please be a little respectful instead of calling me "condescending" and "you anti drug people". At least read what I am saying, and respond to specific things ive said, instead of misinterpreting everything and making generalisations. Thanks!

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 08, 2012
at 06:17 AM

Please don't go about giving "your personal prescription" to the mentally ill. I say that not to be condescending, but because you can cause harm, even with the best of intentions. An intellectual debate is all well and good, but even if you were right 99/100 times... the last time could be deadly. Do what's right for you - but please don't put someone else's health in jeopardy to try and prove a point.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:37 AM

track of only around one hundred people. If you compare ancient ways of life (small tight communties, strong sense of place/connection to the enviroment/philosopy, no touch taboo, lots of excercise and sunlight, natural sleep) with modern communities, from a psychology point of veiw, in the context of depression and mood, I personally realise that we are missing a great deal of basic psychological needs in modern society.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 07:21 AM

When did I assume anything about _you_ personally? Please, please calm down! I am not anti-drug _at all_. You seem to be being extreme reactive, and even thinking about what I am saying. I am warning of the logical and scientifically indicated problems with long term anti-depressants because I understand a fair bit about how they work, and how the brain works. I do not stigmatize people with emotional difficulties, or cognitive difficulties at all. I have been in that exact situation myself.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:53 AM

More than serotonin, or dopamine, a very very interesting neurological factor for depression is Brain-derived neurotrophic factor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-derived_neurotrophic_factor . Its stimulated by sunlight, excercise and human touch/empathy/the serenic receptor. Anti-depressants probably work by indirectly effecting the serenic receptor, and thus also increasing BDNF, as well as dampening anxiety and negative feelings in the serotonin family (which contrary to popular beleif produces more negative than positive feelings, hence why LSD can be so scary), and boosting dopamine.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 09:04 AM

"I'm glad that you were able to come out of it, but it is dangerous to assume that others are able to do so.". How is that dangerous? I would think its more dangerous to assume people cant come out of it. Its certainly not what id want to hear, if I was still depressed! Hope is something you need to cling to like a limpit when your depressed.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:31 AM

This study here, is one of many that links higher income countries with depression - http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1741-7015-9-90.pdf ...Theres probably some better ones, but I feel half arsed about proving something I personally see as obvious. If you put in "disease of cilivisation"/affluence and "depression", youll hit plenty of stuff to read if your interested.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 08, 2012
at 05:58 AM

The serenic receptor, 5ht1a, is anti-depressive, and anti-anxiety. It stimulates dopamine in certain brain regions (pleasure), produces gaba in others (calm), and increases this BDNF. Thats another strong correlate with depression/anxiety thats work looking up on wikipedia. The serenic receptor is stimulated by touch, orgasm, love and empathy, via the hormone oxytocin. Its also stimulated by anti-depressive herb albizzia, and the recreational drug MDMA (which has many other effects). Re: BGNF, that how the active in tumeric, curcumin produces its anti-depressive effects.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:46 AM

When did I assume anything about you personally? I am not anti-drug at all. I am only warning of the logical and scientifically indicated problems with long term anti-depressants because I understand a bit about how they work, and how the brain works. I do not stigmatize people with emotional difficulties, or cognitive difficulties at all. I have been in that exact situation myself.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 09:04 AM

Should we ignore when harm may be actively being caused in the intention of therapy, so that people keep seeking help? If we are to point people in the direction of expert advice, should we not also hold those experts to highest account, and their methods to the tightest scrunity and criticism, if we truely care about the outcomes of those we entrust to their care?

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 09, 2012
at 08:59 AM

Have you considered that maybe the mental health service, and psychiatrists might sometimes be doing some harm to people with long term medications? At minimum, there is a reasonable rate of drug related fatalities from things like organ failure, and the persistant long term anti-psych nasty side effect, tardive dyskinesia. Anti-depressants are probably alot safer than many anti-psychs. And that not where the story ends either, as u can tell if you read those two articles. Or should there be no questioning, checking or accountability at all?

1
F0a3e3f17d9a740810ac37ff2353a9f3

(3804)

on July 09, 2012
at 03:50 AM

My view is pretty much the same as yours.

I think there are times when we need to "lay-low" emotionally, just as we would when recovering from a physical injury.

Having experienced "real" depression, I can tell you that there's nothing adaptive or beneficial about it, but I know there have been other times when I might have shown the outward signs of depression when I felt I was resting or recovering in some way.

1
F31d10b54b31428e189d9b771bf7b1d1

on July 08, 2012
at 12:22 PM

No, I do not view depression as a beneficial adaptation. When something becomes common, like when we all do the wrong thing like eating grains, we tend to think that it is normal. I believe that depression is either a physiological, psychological, or spiritual malady.

0
5cb72179fcddcee6a6b570dc80269a1a

(78)

on August 06, 2013
at 08:01 AM

In my uneducated opinion, depression is not an adaptive mechanism to "Get us to act."

I don't believe depression has ANY UPSIDE.

I believe that if a person is depressed, that he or she is in a bad state period.

The ability to "Act on a problem" requires two things: The identification of the problem itself, and the energy and resolve to solve that problem.

Depression, IMO, robs a person of useful energy and focus. Yes, a depressed person will use energy unwisely like watching a lot of TV or perhaps talking about their problems over and over again, but none of this "Solves" the problems anyway. So to me, depression is just a negative condition/sickness that is unique to mammals of a higher order. It's like our sophisticated brain comes with a potential downside, the possibility of depression is one of them.

I do agree with Jaime (i think it was jaime), that community, and I mean REAL COMMUNITY, CONNECTEDNESS and PURPOSE is really lacking in our lives and helps inch one towards depression. In primitive days, life was very, very hard and bleak, but the stress and the realities of having to survive starvation and sabor-tooth tigers kinda forces a person to not sit around and be in a self-reflective mood, and thus, may not even have the time to be depressed. There are of course many other legit reasons why someone might have been depressed during primitive times, things like brain abnormalities, neuro-chemistry problems, undiagnosed food intolerances, underlying infection, these things obviously can cause depression and it is completely not the fault of the individual. Also, one can't ignore the fact that simply being on our feet all day trying to obtain food and stuff, produces physiological changes in the body that may very well prevent some kinds of depression from taking root. Things like sunshine, increased quality of oxygen have drug like effects to help some non-geneteically predisposed people to being depressed.

Congratulations to OZ for continually putting up a good fight against depression. I love hearing about victories.

0
1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

on July 08, 2012
at 08:36 PM

Absolutely not. Anxiety is though.

0
31381cfeb5d6da6fc75f80ab68e041ea

(560)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:04 PM

i don't have much more to say than the amazing responses here, but for me, i beat depression with prayer, focusing on where i am heading/moving forward in life, increasing carbs, and for a while, taking medication.

31381cfeb5d6da6fc75f80ab68e041ea

(560)

on July 08, 2012
at 07:05 PM

i still get depressed sometimes, but it's not the deep hole that it was. carbs were HUGE for me. and taking supplements like GABA.

0
Fc64db6a555559762432d503a1dbad19

(1478)

on July 08, 2012
at 03:36 PM

I highly recommend watching the PBS Documentary "This Emotional Life" In Episode 3 titled "Rethinking Happiness" They go into this topic in detail interviewing people with depression, Post Traumatic Stress, Cancer Diagnosis, etc. In the episode they show images of the brain of depressed people and show that the depression actually shrinks the brain. As humans the Fight or flight response is a normal evolutionary response that is actually helpful, however we humans as opposed to animals have no way of shutting off this response and this is what causes things like anxiety and can lead to depression if under chronic stress. I don't think long term depression is beneficial!! In the episode they say something very interesting... They say that people who are happy out achieve and out reproduce people who are unhappy and there are more happy people around now than ever before due to evolution. Interesting and worth watching..

link text

Answer Question


Get FREE instant access to our
Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!