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Keto/Paleo questions...

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created December 06, 2012 at 6:32 PM

So I've been on these forums for days learning as much as I can about ketosis. I've been on a strict paleo diet for 6 months now...no dairy or grains at all (except for heavy cream and ghee). I recently started messing with ketosis a little bit, and I have been in ketosis for about a week now (according to the handy dandy little pee sticks!). My goal is to reduce my body fat and gain muscle. I am at a healthy weight but I am trying to lean out. I am reading alot about body builders who carb up after a work out, or once a week (some of them do cheat meals.) I am not interested in cheat meals because I stick to paleo for it's health benefits, and I'm not about to go out and eat a pizza. I have plenty of energy eating only 20-30 grams of carbs a day, so I don't see why I need to carb up (other than some muscle building strategies I don't understand.) So long story short (sheesh this is long winded, sorry!) I am wondering if anyone has thoughts on carbing up while doing keto; is it necessary? And if so, why? What are your experiences in successful meals pre and post workout? Any advice is appreciated, thanks!

86c97b2779feab3c330f5e1c5fea7e25

(2312)

on December 07, 2012
at 06:43 PM

Oh and I believe that women should not fast as long as men, so be careful with that as well (I don't know details but wanted to throw that out there)

86c97b2779feab3c330f5e1c5fea7e25

(2312)

on December 07, 2012
at 06:42 PM

I think fasted training comes with time...you might not be in full ketosis yet (aka your body isn't using ketones as efficiently as it can). It is not harmful to your workout at all, but it might inhibit fat burning a bit COMPARED to fasted training. Don't forget that "thirst" can be confused with "hunger", so maybe try having water (with MCT Oil if you want) when you wake up instead of the food and see how you feel.

3b98fe5dd50ed3172f0669d4c8af6bce

(15)

on December 07, 2012
at 05:36 PM

I just realized VLC means low carb not low calorie...I'm a dummie!

3b98fe5dd50ed3172f0669d4c8af6bce

(15)

on December 07, 2012
at 04:53 PM

PS...I do "weird dances" in the gym as well...but only because I am a dancer and I want to teach them =) I try to just use those for cardio endurance tho and balance it out with good heavy weights and circuit training. My workouts are extremely varied, I do a little bit of everything since I'm trying to teach and I like variety!

3b98fe5dd50ed3172f0669d4c8af6bce

(15)

on December 07, 2012
at 04:52 PM

Sorry that last response was for the answer from Elf7, I'm a little new to these forums =) Now I'm reading all the other comments!

3b98fe5dd50ed3172f0669d4c8af6bce

(15)

on December 07, 2012
at 04:51 PM

Well the thing is, I'm not exactly VLC because I think I take in plenty of calories from the meat and eggs, and I feel plenty fueled for all of the activity I do. And I have GERD as well, and this seems to be the only thing that has helped! And I feel awesome in ketosis. Maybe it's just different for each individual. But thanks for the gym advice, I just started heavy lifting in the past 6 months or so and I find it is very possible to see results and kick my butt in 30 min sessions! And I'll definitely check out that site, trying to absorb as much info as possible!

3b98fe5dd50ed3172f0669d4c8af6bce

(15)

on December 07, 2012
at 04:46 PM

Thanks for the reading material, I will definitely do that! And thanks for the advice =) I think you're right about just following ketosis, from all the research I've done (and agree with) it seems that there is no reason not to just stay in ketosis as long as I'm still doing a healthy ratio of protein/fat/carbs(from veggies). As far as fasting goes tho, I usually wake up starving and find that I have a hard time working out unless I have a little something...which is usually a handful of almonds or a little squash (where most of my daily carbs come from!). Is that harmful to my workout?

3491e51730101b18724dc57c86601173

(8395)

on December 07, 2012
at 12:28 AM

If "extremely low cholesterol" is the clue, what about people who already have "low cholesterol" but are convinced by their doctors to go on statins to lower LDL, even more? Do they get worms? Which came first, the worms or the extremely low cholesterol? And what does that have to do with a VLC diet???

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 11:43 PM

phacks=paleohacks. anyway, just trying to spread the information, you can do with it what you want!

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 11:43 PM

they are all about awakening the paleo community to the dangers of too low carb diets... obviously there are detractors-hyperlipid, and I forget who else. But their arguments make sense to me, they have evidence from their readers, and I honestly can't buy into carbs drive insulin which drives fat. it seems too simple as an obesity hypothesis. google that on phacks, other sites for lots of interesting discussion....

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 11:41 PM

From his site: Brendan is a great example. He first left a comment in May asking for advice: I have rosacea, puffiness in my cheeks, post-nasal drip, frequent headaches, severe constipation (IBS), hypothyroidism, extremely low cholesterol, and a variety of neuropsychiatric symptoms (depression, anxiety, insomnia, and cognitive and motor problems). “Extremely low cholesterol” is the tell-tale clue. He reported back in December: he did indeed have whipworm and entamoeba infections, and is now seeking treatment." http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/comment-page-1/

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 11:41 PM

there's a lot of suggestions he gives to the people with LDL - namely, follow their diet, and get tested in the extreme cases. "This means that anyone eating a high-fat diet who has low serum cholesterol should get checked out for eukaryotic infections, probably protozoa or worms. We’ve encouraged half a dozen people or so to do this.

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 11:34 PM

His series is really, really interesting. I also love this post: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/03/low-carb-paleo-and-ldl-is-soaring-%e2%80%93-help/ He lists several "famous" people in the paleo/VLC community -Jimmy Moore, Peter Dobrolmylskj (apologies I'm sure I butchered this) of hyperlipid, and many commenters on paleohacks. Richard Nikoley also wrote posts about this. so it's not n=1. He suggested that high LDL is a cause for concern and explains why here: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/03/answer-day-what-causes-high-ldl-on-low-carb-paleo/

3491e51730101b18724dc57c86601173

(8395)

on December 06, 2012
at 09:16 PM

I've heard Paul Jaminet in two interviews now claiming that VLC causes fungal and other infections, but I've never known anyone on a VLC diet to complain of a fungal infection or other, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. I wonder if this is going to be another urban myth like "VLC causes hypothyroidism"? N=1 but I have gone from having many respiratory infections each year to ZERO in the past 18+ months I've been VLC. Many other health benefits, too--no GERD is a big one. It's been wonderful for my health.

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 07:58 PM

not that there's anything wrong with being huge either! but I like his perspective on fat loss - keep squatting, keep deadlifting, keep bench pressing, doing pull-ups. those are the important muscles, he says to avoid frou-frou stuff like little weights, weird dances in the gym, shrugs, etc. Do real weights, get lean and strong. It works and it's not a starvation diet. his people look pretty healthy AND are functionally strong and lean.

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 07:55 PM

oh yeah and doing this, you won't get huge. check out martin's pics. he has hot women (IMHO) that he trains.

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2 Answers

3
86c97b2779feab3c330f5e1c5fea7e25

(2312)

on December 06, 2012
at 07:17 PM

#1 Read "The Art and Science of Low Carb Living" followed by "The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance". They will give you great advice and info on ketosis, and the second book is all about being athletic on a ketogenic diet

#2 Basically, if you are meeting your protein needs (stated as .6-1 of your lean body mass [total weight minus body fat]), you should be able to build muscle while burning fat

Unless you are trying to get really big (like most of the guys on bodybuilding.com are), you don't need to carb up. If you are going for the lean muscled look, follow ketosis and the rest will follow you :)

I personally try to do fasted training (usually 5:30am)...so I'll have some water with 1 tbspn MCT Oil when I wake up at 5 (working my way up to 2 tbspns) then 10g BCAAs right before workout). AFter workout...25-35g of Whey, shower, etc, then have a big meal. Has been working great.

BTW, I read both of these books in the last month along with a lot of other research, so feel free to ask any questions. I'm no expert, but would love to help if I can

3b98fe5dd50ed3172f0669d4c8af6bce

(15)

on December 07, 2012
at 04:46 PM

Thanks for the reading material, I will definitely do that! And thanks for the advice =) I think you're right about just following ketosis, from all the research I've done (and agree with) it seems that there is no reason not to just stay in ketosis as long as I'm still doing a healthy ratio of protein/fat/carbs(from veggies). As far as fasting goes tho, I usually wake up starving and find that I have a hard time working out unless I have a little something...which is usually a handful of almonds or a little squash (where most of my daily carbs come from!). Is that harmful to my workout?

86c97b2779feab3c330f5e1c5fea7e25

(2312)

on December 07, 2012
at 06:43 PM

Oh and I believe that women should not fast as long as men, so be careful with that as well (I don't know details but wanted to throw that out there)

86c97b2779feab3c330f5e1c5fea7e25

(2312)

on December 07, 2012
at 06:42 PM

I think fasted training comes with time...you might not be in full ketosis yet (aka your body isn't using ketones as efficiently as it can). It is not harmful to your workout at all, but it might inhibit fat burning a bit COMPARED to fasted training. Don't forget that "thirst" can be confused with "hunger", so maybe try having water (with MCT Oil if you want) when you wake up instead of the food and see how you feel.

0
8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 07:54 PM

So actually, be careful with ketosis. Check out perfecthealthdiet the dangers of no-carb series. carbs can be useful for something in the body, and even though you're only 6 months in, it seems like you need to be careful that you don't have some kind of fungal or other infection which could worsen on no-carb diet (or VLC diet, which you're doing. 20-30 g per day is LOW, especially if that's all from veggies like onions, lettuce and not potatoes, sweet potatoes).

now, for fat loss - I like leangains. I like martin. he calls it body recomposition.

I do the program, to a point. check out his site, he explains that while protein is important for satiety, carbohydrates and fat are equally important for restoring leptin and ghrelin and some other hormones. being too low carb can mess up your balance, which might be why this all potato diet is now the rage for a bunch of VLCers like yourself.

http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html (I think you have to click through some of his links to find out exactly why, and which studies and research. His site's a fun one to go through though, and read all the archives)

although I don't follow it EXACTLY, the program pretty much works. I can't swallow as much protein as he recommends and I don't find it convenient to IF all the time. So most days, maybe like 5 or 6 out of 7, i skip breakfast and I keep my eating from around 12-8 or 9. But somedays I wake up hungry so I skip it, usually when I'm traveling, haven't slept well, etc. Sometimes I snack at 10, then eat from 12-9. it depends.

But basically, as a woman, I warm up, do max squatting and bench pressing 3 times per week, and eat for only 8 hours/day. I take a couple 20 minute walks during the week.

I feel worse in ketosis so I don't do it, but more power to you if you can. You basically calorically restrict one day that you don't do anything, and then eat huge when you do lift. you're eating tons of protein.

for me the best part is I'm in and out of the gym in 30 minutes, go awesome psychologically to get it DONE.

there are some calculators out there for leangains too...again i couldn't stomach that much protein but if you can, more power to you!

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 07:58 PM

not that there's anything wrong with being huge either! but I like his perspective on fat loss - keep squatting, keep deadlifting, keep bench pressing, doing pull-ups. those are the important muscles, he says to avoid frou-frou stuff like little weights, weird dances in the gym, shrugs, etc. Do real weights, get lean and strong. It works and it's not a starvation diet. his people look pretty healthy AND are functionally strong and lean.

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 11:41 PM

From his site: Brendan is a great example. He first left a comment in May asking for advice: I have rosacea, puffiness in my cheeks, post-nasal drip, frequent headaches, severe constipation (IBS), hypothyroidism, extremely low cholesterol, and a variety of neuropsychiatric symptoms (depression, anxiety, insomnia, and cognitive and motor problems). “Extremely low cholesterol” is the tell-tale clue. He reported back in December: he did indeed have whipworm and entamoeba infections, and is now seeking treatment." http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/comment-page-1/

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 11:41 PM

there's a lot of suggestions he gives to the people with LDL - namely, follow their diet, and get tested in the extreme cases. "This means that anyone eating a high-fat diet who has low serum cholesterol should get checked out for eukaryotic infections, probably protozoa or worms. We’ve encouraged half a dozen people or so to do this.

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 07:55 PM

oh yeah and doing this, you won't get huge. check out martin's pics. he has hot women (IMHO) that he trains.

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 11:34 PM

His series is really, really interesting. I also love this post: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/03/low-carb-paleo-and-ldl-is-soaring-%e2%80%93-help/ He lists several "famous" people in the paleo/VLC community -Jimmy Moore, Peter Dobrolmylskj (apologies I'm sure I butchered this) of hyperlipid, and many commenters on paleohacks. Richard Nikoley also wrote posts about this. so it's not n=1. He suggested that high LDL is a cause for concern and explains why here: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/03/answer-day-what-causes-high-ldl-on-low-carb-paleo/

3491e51730101b18724dc57c86601173

(8395)

on December 06, 2012
at 09:16 PM

I've heard Paul Jaminet in two interviews now claiming that VLC causes fungal and other infections, but I've never known anyone on a VLC diet to complain of a fungal infection or other, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. I wonder if this is going to be another urban myth like "VLC causes hypothyroidism"? N=1 but I have gone from having many respiratory infections each year to ZERO in the past 18+ months I've been VLC. Many other health benefits, too--no GERD is a big one. It's been wonderful for my health.

3b98fe5dd50ed3172f0669d4c8af6bce

(15)

on December 07, 2012
at 04:52 PM

Sorry that last response was for the answer from Elf7, I'm a little new to these forums =) Now I'm reading all the other comments!

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 11:43 PM

they are all about awakening the paleo community to the dangers of too low carb diets... obviously there are detractors-hyperlipid, and I forget who else. But their arguments make sense to me, they have evidence from their readers, and I honestly can't buy into carbs drive insulin which drives fat. it seems too simple as an obesity hypothesis. google that on phacks, other sites for lots of interesting discussion....

3491e51730101b18724dc57c86601173

(8395)

on December 07, 2012
at 12:28 AM

If "extremely low cholesterol" is the clue, what about people who already have "low cholesterol" but are convinced by their doctors to go on statins to lower LDL, even more? Do they get worms? Which came first, the worms or the extremely low cholesterol? And what does that have to do with a VLC diet???

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on December 06, 2012
at 11:43 PM

phacks=paleohacks. anyway, just trying to spread the information, you can do with it what you want!

3b98fe5dd50ed3172f0669d4c8af6bce

(15)

on December 07, 2012
at 05:36 PM

I just realized VLC means low carb not low calorie...I'm a dummie!

3b98fe5dd50ed3172f0669d4c8af6bce

(15)

on December 07, 2012
at 04:53 PM

PS...I do "weird dances" in the gym as well...but only because I am a dancer and I want to teach them =) I try to just use those for cardio endurance tho and balance it out with good heavy weights and circuit training. My workouts are extremely varied, I do a little bit of everything since I'm trying to teach and I like variety!

3b98fe5dd50ed3172f0669d4c8af6bce

(15)

on December 07, 2012
at 04:51 PM

Well the thing is, I'm not exactly VLC because I think I take in plenty of calories from the meat and eggs, and I feel plenty fueled for all of the activity I do. And I have GERD as well, and this seems to be the only thing that has helped! And I feel awesome in ketosis. Maybe it's just different for each individual. But thanks for the gym advice, I just started heavy lifting in the past 6 months or so and I find it is very possible to see results and kick my butt in 30 min sessions! And I'll definitely check out that site, trying to absorb as much info as possible!

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