2

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Intermittent fasting with 8 hr feed / 16 hr feed, fat intake?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 27, 2011 at 11:52 AM

I a beginner IF'er, with about 8 months of 95% paleo eating behind. So far I've had good progress, but I'm still looking into leaning a bit. I'm currently 6'1 and about 174-176 lbs, rough estimate of BF is somewhere around 15%.

The Leangains approach suggest more carbs that I feel "need". My usual calorie intake on workout days is about 2100-2200 with P 30-35% / C 15-20% / F 50-55%.

Is it okay to maintain the high fat intake on workout days, or should I cycle and eat more carbs & less fat on workout days? I'm currently breaking fast around 1-2 pm with about 40-50 g protein, 20-30 grams carbs and 25-35 grams fat, workout at 5 pm and having a postworkout meal (within an hour of finishing workout) of 40-50 grams protein (meat) & 50 grams carbs (sweet potato ) and some 10 grams of fat from the meat. Then I have my subsequent and larger postworkout meal of 60-80 grams of protein, 15-25 grams of carbs (veggies) and 50-70 grams of fat (fatty meats and/or paleo friendly condiments or fat from eggs).

Is this totally wrong? I'm also considering taking BCAAs into use around the workout, and possibly switching from 3 to 2 meals a day, with a little bigger lunch and a big 1300-1500 postworkout dinner just before starting the next fast (would the same macros still work?)

D42a1f9a7a687e5354cc362d50bced56

(80)

on June 01, 2011
at 05:55 PM

Great work. Sleep is definitely an important part of being well, glad to hear it's on the up.

8d1ce78fe7071f2f60fd59365bf21cfc

(580)

on May 31, 2011
at 06:03 PM

>>> 185-200 grams on rest days and 210-225 grams on WO days. So far it's been great; i think i've still leaning, lifts are already a little up and i also sleep better. I'm probably switching to maintenance on WO days and a 10-15% deficit on rest days.

8d1ce78fe7071f2f60fd59365bf21cfc

(580)

on May 31, 2011
at 06:01 PM

Actually after this post I had a "swoosh" of weight loss, and I'm currently 169-170#, which was my sort-of "weight target". I've now been thinking more body recomp, and started doing leangains, but with paleo foods of course. I've upped steadily my WO day carb intake from 180 to 250-270 (sweet potato), with 60% of calories PWO, rest days with 85-100 carbs with no little or no starches. Fats lower on WO days, around 50-55 grams (found 4% lean ground beef :)) and moderate on rest days (controlling the deficit, like you said). Protein has been pretty high >>>

D42a1f9a7a687e5354cc362d50bced56

(80)

on May 31, 2011
at 02:49 PM

Looks solid. My take is to try it for a couple of weeks, see how you look, feel and perform (if I can borrow a Robb Wolfism) and then tweak it from there. The fat you eat on off days is like energy ballast, that's where you can cut or add to control the rate of weight loss IMO. In the past I've eaten upwards of 250g of Fat per day whilst IFing (not Leangains style) and it now seems pretty obvious to me that I wouldn't really use up much of my own stores at this level. +1 for the spreadsheet - I have my own and I'm a mega spreadsheet nerd. How has this been going for you?

A7ac68389a10bc99f33885e7ed0dbfe0

(165)

on April 30, 2011
at 12:20 AM

Thanks!........

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on April 28, 2011
at 12:48 AM

Maybe I'd lean out in the sense that I'd lose more fat, but I certainly wouldn't gain muscle too quickly. Eating high fat VLC keeps calories high enough to continue with anabolic protein synthesis in muscles and the lack of carbs precludes fat-sparing hormone signals like insulin. Thus, I don't store much, if any, more fat on high-fat non-workout days. Reducing caloric intake, then, wouldn't have much effect on my fat storage, but it would have a catabolic effect, or at least an abated anabolic effect, on the protein synthesis rebuilding my muscle tissue. It's notalwaysas simpleas calories

A7ac68389a10bc99f33885e7ed0dbfe0

(165)

on April 28, 2011
at 12:33 AM

Great answer... my question is: what would happen if you didn't get the fat intake on non-workout days? Since this would reduce total calories for the day, obviously there would be some weight loss... but wouldn't you still lean out as long as you kept your protein ratio high to replace/build muscle?

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3 Answers

3
Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on April 27, 2011
at 02:35 PM

Sounds like someone found leangains.com :)

I've been following leangains for 6 weeks or so. I've gained 4 lbs. in that period, but I don't seem to have accumulated any more fat. On workout days, I keep fat fairly low. I generally eat a pound of lean minute steak and a pound of potato/yam/sweet potato PWO (usually about a 1600 calorie meal -- 130g protein, 130g carbs or so) with a can of fish and some veggies for dinner, often a piece of fruit tossed in somewhere. On non-workout days, I eat typical VLC Paleo -- meat-a-plenty, eggs, bacon, coconut pancakes (my crack), veggies, etc. I've been doing the fast-until-workout protocol where I work out around 11AM and eat around noon. My dinner comes about 5 or 6 hours after that, and that's food for the day. Same pattern on non-workout days, usually.

I haven't added the BCAA yet, but it seems like a good idea. Art de Vany and several EFers on his site swear by BCAA and its effect on protein synthesis. Art even went to far as to say that you should take BCAA to reach your body composition goals, as if it were essential to doing so. He said they weren't terribly important to take once you feel "muscular enough" (my quote, not his).

Anyway, this has just been my experience on leangains. I feel satisfied between workouts and able during workouts. I've made gains, and I've stayed lean. I've done it without high fat on workout days beyond what is in my meat and minor amount of cooking fat. Martin's notion is that on workout days, you want to minimize fat retention and de novo lipogenesis. To do so, keep fat intake low and protein intake high (lean meats) and take in enough carbs to restore liver glycogen. Non workout days are high fat, low carb for obvious, Paleo 101 reasons regarding fat storage.

A7ac68389a10bc99f33885e7ed0dbfe0

(165)

on April 30, 2011
at 12:20 AM

Thanks!........

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on April 28, 2011
at 12:48 AM

Maybe I'd lean out in the sense that I'd lose more fat, but I certainly wouldn't gain muscle too quickly. Eating high fat VLC keeps calories high enough to continue with anabolic protein synthesis in muscles and the lack of carbs precludes fat-sparing hormone signals like insulin. Thus, I don't store much, if any, more fat on high-fat non-workout days. Reducing caloric intake, then, wouldn't have much effect on my fat storage, but it would have a catabolic effect, or at least an abated anabolic effect, on the protein synthesis rebuilding my muscle tissue. It's notalwaysas simpleas calories

A7ac68389a10bc99f33885e7ed0dbfe0

(165)

on April 28, 2011
at 12:33 AM

Great answer... my question is: what would happen if you didn't get the fat intake on non-workout days? Since this would reduce total calories for the day, obviously there would be some weight loss... but wouldn't you still lean out as long as you kept your protein ratio high to replace/build muscle?

1
8d1ce78fe7071f2f60fd59365bf21cfc

(580)

on April 30, 2011
at 11:26 AM

Thanks for the answers! They were somewhat what I expected. After reading more of Martin's stuff, it seems that lowering the fat intake is probably something I need to do, if leaning out is my goal. Too bad, as I really enjoy the high-fat way-of-eating (who doesn't). What this mean's is a) egg WHITE omelets (haven't thrown yolks away since gone paleo) b) no more HUGE pieces of salmon from the deli for lunch c) stockpiling on sweet potato and lean ground beef and 1/2 a rotisserie chickens for rest day lunches (cant wait to see the faces in the office kitchen).

My hack will be: Maintance cals BW x 13 --> 2275 cals (got the 13 from some topic at Mark's Daily Apple). My goal is to shred 5 pounds, so I'll need a deficit not only for the rest days, but workout days also. Calories added to maintenance on WO days +450 --> workout day calories 2050, 35% protein (190 grams) / 35 % carbs (180 grams) / 30% fat (65 grams) (including fish oil caps). Rest day 1700 calories with 42.5 % protein (180 grams) / 12.5 % carbs (55 grams) / 42.5 % fat (85 grams). In case you're wondering the .5 increments, i have my own spredsheet to figure this s*it out :)

I'll go on with the 8/16hr feed/fast, take 10 grams of BCAA preworkout (and another 10g if working out fasted). I also think I'll change my training frequency (CF:ing 2on/1off) to 4 times a week 1on/1off, more heavy lifts and cutting metcons to 8-10 minutes tops. See what happens.

If MATH is to be trusted, this should create a 2600 calorie weekly deficit, and assuming no change in LBM, a drop of 5 lbs bodyfat in 8 weeks (okay this is just hypothetical, body doesn't work like math :)).

Any thoughts?

8d1ce78fe7071f2f60fd59365bf21cfc

(580)

on May 31, 2011
at 06:03 PM

>>> 185-200 grams on rest days and 210-225 grams on WO days. So far it's been great; i think i've still leaning, lifts are already a little up and i also sleep better. I'm probably switching to maintenance on WO days and a 10-15% deficit on rest days.

D42a1f9a7a687e5354cc362d50bced56

(80)

on May 31, 2011
at 02:49 PM

Looks solid. My take is to try it for a couple of weeks, see how you look, feel and perform (if I can borrow a Robb Wolfism) and then tweak it from there. The fat you eat on off days is like energy ballast, that's where you can cut or add to control the rate of weight loss IMO. In the past I've eaten upwards of 250g of Fat per day whilst IFing (not Leangains style) and it now seems pretty obvious to me that I wouldn't really use up much of my own stores at this level. +1 for the spreadsheet - I have my own and I'm a mega spreadsheet nerd. How has this been going for you?

8d1ce78fe7071f2f60fd59365bf21cfc

(580)

on May 31, 2011
at 06:01 PM

Actually after this post I had a "swoosh" of weight loss, and I'm currently 169-170#, which was my sort-of "weight target". I've now been thinking more body recomp, and started doing leangains, but with paleo foods of course. I've upped steadily my WO day carb intake from 180 to 250-270 (sweet potato), with 60% of calories PWO, rest days with 85-100 carbs with no little or no starches. Fats lower on WO days, around 50-55 grams (found 4% lean ground beef :)) and moderate on rest days (controlling the deficit, like you said). Protein has been pretty high >>>

D42a1f9a7a687e5354cc362d50bced56

(80)

on June 01, 2011
at 05:55 PM

Great work. Sleep is definitely an important part of being well, glad to hear it's on the up.

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