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How bad is it to eat foods that were cooked in vegetable oil?

Commented on August 18, 2014
Created August 13, 2014 at 5:09 PM

I've been on the Paleo plan for about a week and it's amazing. The scale is going down, I'm able to work out harder, and I get better sleep. It's tough to not eat out for lunch because of work. How many of you adhere to strict guidelines of only using the right kind of oil (coconut, avocado, etc)? I kind of feel I can chalk this up to being a small factor in success but I'd like some advice.

70d82ba6d7dc1503d954cf0c82ab80f4

on August 18, 2014
at 02:16 AM

What types of sugar do you consider unrefined? Will you eat coconut sugar, jaggery or honey? I'm interested to know where others draw the line. I won't regularly eat "paleofied" desserts with honey, maple syrup, etc. but I'll have a piece of chocolate that undoubtedly contains refined sugar in it a few times a year if it's in front of me.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on August 17, 2014
at 04:45 PM

I see that vitamins C, B1, B5, B6, B9 are negatively affected by cooking. Perhaps a mixture cooked-raw is in order, specially since C and B9 are mostly provided by fruits and vegetables.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 17, 2014
at 03:04 PM

Across the board they are all more available after cooking. Humans do not have a digestive system really capable of digesting uncooked plant matter well.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on August 17, 2014
at 02:41 PM

I do eat some vegetables raw, but steamed chard, potatoes, string beans, collard, kale, baked squash, all these are eaten with EVOO always. what are the nutrients that get absorbed more when cooking?

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on August 17, 2014
at 04:15 AM

Did you mean ....

"I eat all of my veggies, except the rare cucumber, raw, with olive oil." ? ie...you eat your veggies raw?

or you eat your veggies with raw olive oil?

Cooking veggies allows you to absorb more of the nutrients... by a LOT.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on August 16, 2014
at 04:44 PM

I eat all of my veggies, except the rare cucumber, with raw olive oil.

01114547678b001f3e52cc3a9d343fd1

(-23)

on August 16, 2014
at 03:46 PM

Ok, that's not very relevant though. The percentage of PUFA of total fat hardly matters when a food is low in fat.

2cbd904ebf34e1df5ccd2ded41ce7c16

(102)

on August 16, 2014
at 02:16 AM

Can you refer me to some of these higher PUFA cultures? I'm not being an ass, but am seriously interested as I the studies I listed were some of the only ones I could find on the subject.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 16, 2014
at 12:21 AM

I'll give you 50% of calories from added fat, of which is only 35% of calories are from PUFA. And of course, you'd be hard pressed to find anybody eating sauteed veggies as 50% of their caloric intake, but even then, PUFA as a percentage of calories would be 17% then. Oh hey, fairly normal levels of PUFAs.

Regardless, I think we're quite far off-course given the OP was asking about eating veggie oil when eating out occasionally.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 16, 2014
at 12:18 AM

Paleo diets may not have been optimal, we simply do not know what they consumed. We do know what hunter-gatherers and traditional cultures ate, and the vast majority aren't super low PUFA. They may be lower in PUFA than the SAD, that's not the point.

2cbd904ebf34e1df5ccd2ded41ce7c16

(102)

on August 15, 2014
at 11:28 PM

Do you think paleolithic diets were that varied? "Oh we had tubers yesterday, lets have Mexican tonight instead!" or do you think that tribes became accustomed to eating the same specific things that they were comfortable with collecting, hunting and preparing?

Something else to think about: There are a lot of different ruminant animals (low PUFA animals, able to hydrogenate oils). It wasn't just the auroch, a lot of delicious animals can do this, and these animals were probably focused on by humans because they travel in herds and humans could migrate with them.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 15, 2014
at 03:51 PM

Varied (all tuber diets need not apply.) Widely consumed (50 people in a tribe in PNG, not representative.) Not centered on esoteric staples (nothing but coconut and beef tallow, uhhh, yeah, no.)

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 15, 2014
at 03:49 PM

Fats, even sub-optimal ones, will enhance the bioavailability of nutrients.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on August 15, 2014
at 03:35 PM

fried veggies are 90% calories vegetable oil, and for corn oil, 70% calories Omega 6. I wonder who can lead a healthy life when 60% of calories (let us leave room for a large burger) are O6.

2cbd904ebf34e1df5ccd2ded41ce7c16

(102)

on August 15, 2014
at 03:26 PM

I think the veggies without the oil would be healthier.

2cbd904ebf34e1df5ccd2ded41ce7c16

(102)

on August 15, 2014
at 03:21 PM

What's a normal diet?

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 15, 2014
at 02:19 PM

Reread what I wrote: most FAT in foods is ~10% PUFA. Bananas fat is 22% PUFA. Sweet potatoes fat is 27% PUFA. Now look at fat sources… it's 10-20% PUFA with few exceptions. Jaminets recommendation for 4% calories from PUFA is only possible with 1) a low-fat diet or 2) a highly odd diet of coconut and beef as fat sources (forbidding most others in typical serving sizes).

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 15, 2014
at 02:15 PM

Again, lean white-fish diets are not represenative of normal diets. Talk normal diets. Low dietary PUFAs occur when a low-PUFA food is a staple (i.e. coconut) or when total fat is low (i.e. diets extremely high in tubers, which are generally only found in a few tropical tribes.)

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 15, 2014
at 02:13 PM

You have to look at fat sources for fat composition. And you have to look at a reasonable consumption of fat, and not one-off cultures that have odd diets (islanders, post-war starvation diets, etc…)

2cbd904ebf34e1df5ccd2ded41ce7c16

(102)

on August 15, 2014
at 02:06 PM

Modern pigs are fed soybeans and the lard will reflect this. Most researchers probably don't even realize this because I always see studies listing lard as the saturated fat in the study.

This company in the link below, that manufactures "rat chow", has acknowledged this and done an analysis of modern lard...

http://www.researchdiets.com/opensource-diets/stoc...

Also, a lot of fish is low in overall fat. The fat in a serving of Cod is 33% PUFA but Cod only has 1g of fat in a 4oz serving. Therefore Cod has a PUFA percentage of 2.25%.

Farmed fish are fed just like farmed pigs and chicken.

2cbd904ebf34e1df5ccd2ded41ce7c16

(102)

on August 15, 2014
at 01:57 PM

What you saying is true, however you are listing foods that tend to be high in fat. For example, the Hadza eat a lot of tubers and these tend to be low in fat. The carbs are lowering the overall PUFA in the diet. The Okinawans have a PUFA consumption of 4.5% total in their diet (in 1949), even though they eat a lot of fish, because their diet contains a lot of sweet potatoes

Also, pork, chicken, etc. is variable in its PUFA. Example, the Tokelauans pork may be as low as 3.1% PUFA

http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/good-lard-bad-lard-what-do-you-get-when-you-cross-a-pig-and-a-coconut/

01114547678b001f3e52cc3a9d343fd1

(-23)

on August 15, 2014
at 01:27 PM

I don't think most foods are 10% PUFA. Consider all fruits, they almost never have that amount of PUFA. Dairy doesn't have that amount of PUFA. And as you said, ruminants don't either.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 15, 2014
at 01:02 PM

Most fat in foods are ~10% PUFAs. There are some exceptions: ruminants are closer to 4%, coconut is at 2%. Avocado, olives, pork, chicken, fish… all 10+% PUFAs.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 15, 2014
at 01:00 PM

And veggies cooked in even sub-optimal fats are still far closer to optimal than SAD.

01114547678b001f3e52cc3a9d343fd1

(-23)

on August 15, 2014
at 03:32 AM

If you don't consume vegetable oils, I think your PUFA intake would be lower than average Americans. High-PUFA oils I think became popular around the time of WWII.

2cbd904ebf34e1df5ccd2ded41ce7c16

(102)

on August 15, 2014
at 03:27 AM

I doubt it. Most traditional diets were probably pretty low in PUFA.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on August 15, 2014
at 02:28 AM

there is a lot of room between SAD and optimal.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 15, 2014
at 02:00 AM

Hah, love to see a study showing veggies in vegetable oil produce worse health outcomes than SAD.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 15, 2014
at 01:58 AM

A little word to be wary of: outliers.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on August 15, 2014
at 01:48 AM

I doubt it. You get the double whammy of heated oils and seed oils, in the large amounts that inevitably you get in fried foods.

2cbd904ebf34e1df5ccd2ded41ce7c16

(102)

on August 15, 2014
at 01:43 AM

According to this study from 1981 on the traditioal diet of the Tokelau and Pukapuka...

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/34/8/1552.full.p...

... the average Tokelauan male from Polynesia gets 2% of his diet from PUFA for a total of 6g per day. The females get a total of 4g per day, also at 2% of their diet.

The Kitavans also get 2% of their diet as PUFA...

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/4/845.full.pd...

Maasai in 1989 got 3.5% PUFA

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1186%2F1476-51...

... but this was already with the introduction of grain and was probably lower before grain was eaten

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 14, 2014
at 09:39 PM

I wouldn't call that worse than the standard american diet, it has veggies in it, by default, it's superior.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 14, 2014
at 09:38 PM

I'd be interested in seeing what natural/traditional diets have < 4% PUFA intake.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on August 14, 2014
at 02:14 PM

From the PHD book, "the results of 8 clinical trials indicate a significant increase in mortality, especially from cancer, when omega-6 intake reaches 10% calories. The optimal intake is probably 2-3% of energy, toxicity begins at 4%, and Americans' intake averages 9%. Getting LA down to 7 grams for 3% energy on a 2,000 calorie diet would require a fivefold reduction in omega-6 consumption."

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on August 14, 2014
at 04:39 AM

I suppose it depends on the vegetable oil. If you went with sunflower oil and ate meat and veggies, upwards of 25+% of your daily calories might be polyunsaturated fats with a 200+:1 omega 6:3 ratio. It's hard to come in worse than the standard american diet, but that would do it.

B5fb873f94766774e49a6f9d533a3223

(0)

on August 13, 2014
at 08:24 PM

Good Luck. I have found that is the hardest thing to avoid when eating out.

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5 Answers

0
2cbd904ebf34e1df5ccd2ded41ce7c16

(102)

on August 14, 2014
at 01:44 PM

It's interesting to note that PUFA consumption has increased quite a bit in the last 100 years. According to the government numbers...

"The absolute level of polyunsaturated fatty acids increased more than two and a half times from 13 grams in 1909 to 36 grams in 2000"

Also of interest is that carbohydrate consumption has gone down slightly.

I'm not trying to prove something, I just find the data interesting.

01114547678b001f3e52cc3a9d343fd1

(-23)

on August 15, 2014
at 01:27 PM

I don't think most foods are 10% PUFA. Consider all fruits, they almost never have that amount of PUFA. Dairy doesn't have that amount of PUFA. And as you said, ruminants don't either.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on August 14, 2014
at 02:14 PM

From the PHD book, "the results of 8 clinical trials indicate a significant increase in mortality, especially from cancer, when omega-6 intake reaches 10% calories. The optimal intake is probably 2-3% of energy, toxicity begins at 4%, and Americans' intake averages 9%. Getting LA down to 7 grams for 3% energy on a 2,000 calorie diet would require a fivefold reduction in omega-6 consumption."

0
32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on August 13, 2014
at 10:32 PM

On a scale of 1 to 10 in healthfulness veggies sauteed in "vegetable" oil would be a 9.5. In olive or coconut oil, a 10.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on August 14, 2014
at 04:39 AM

I suppose it depends on the vegetable oil. If you went with sunflower oil and ate meat and veggies, upwards of 25+% of your daily calories might be polyunsaturated fats with a 200+:1 omega 6:3 ratio. It's hard to come in worse than the standard american diet, but that would do it.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on August 15, 2014
at 01:48 AM

I doubt it. You get the double whammy of heated oils and seed oils, in the large amounts that inevitably you get in fried foods.

0
Baf4af1fa1ef18613726a3b52e02b012

on August 13, 2014
at 07:20 PM

Thanks. Will try and change it.

B5fb873f94766774e49a6f9d533a3223

(0)

on August 13, 2014
at 08:24 PM

Good Luck. I have found that is the hardest thing to avoid when eating out.

0
01114547678b001f3e52cc3a9d343fd1

on August 13, 2014
at 05:50 PM

Polyunsaturated fats increase vitamin E requirements.

The nice thing about nature is that sources of polyunsaturated fats typically have vitamin E. But if you cook the food, the vitamin E is destroyed, at least the gamma tocopherol is. So by ingesting cooked sources of PUFAs and vitamin E, you increase the vitamin E requirements without giving the body vitamin E.

How bad is it? I think it's pretty bad. The damage is underestimated. Vitamin E levels significantly affect the capacity of the liver to store vitamin A, and vitamin A is involved with the hormonal system (for example, it increases testosterone). So the deficiency in practice of vitamin E that occurs from cooking in vegetable oils messes up everything. The organs with highest concentration of vitamin E per gram are the adrenal glands, further illustrating how important vitamin E is to the endocrine system.

A further problem is that it takes a long time to clean up the mess, because part of the fats you consume gets stored in your adipose tissue, and can be released to the bloodstream many years after you stopped consumption of vegetable oils. So the content of polyunsaturated fats in your blood will still create what amounts to a vitamin E deficiency a long time after stopping consumption of vegetable oils. Vitamin E is also stored in adipose tissue, but if you didn't consume it -and you don't when you cook your oils- it can't be stored.

A good supplement of vitamin E (like 4Spectrum, or another pure product which you can tolerate) I think is a good idea.

I believe a lot of mystery ailments tend to disappear when this problem is fixed (or mended with a vitamin E supplement).

0
B5fb873f94766774e49a6f9d533a3223

on August 13, 2014
at 05:44 PM

For weight loss all oils are virtually identical, they supply about 9 kcal/gram. However, the inflammatory response from vegetable oils is very high, and cooking them at high temps only accelerates their oxidation. The three things I avoid without question are: Gluten, Vegetable oils, refined sugar.

I am not sure what options you have for lunch, but when I am faced with eating away from home I opt for a salad and ask for olive oil and vinegar, or a lettuce wrapped grilled burger.

70d82ba6d7dc1503d954cf0c82ab80f4

on August 18, 2014
at 02:16 AM

What types of sugar do you consider unrefined? Will you eat coconut sugar, jaggery or honey? I'm interested to know where others draw the line. I won't regularly eat "paleofied" desserts with honey, maple syrup, etc. but I'll have a piece of chocolate that undoubtedly contains refined sugar in it a few times a year if it's in front of me.

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