12

votes

Happy medium between conventional SAD wisdom and Paleo?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created March 04, 2011 at 2:00 PM

So. As I mentioned in a previous thread instead of hiring a nutritionist for a "Lunch & Learn" at work this month, I talked them into letting me give the presentation! \o/

My audience is about 30 men, blue collar workers, middle/middle class and lower middle class type guys. They drive pick up trucks, they hunt/fish, they like to say "Get R Done".

I can't go full blown Paleo on them because #1 that is not what my place of employment is looking for and #2 it's a bit too much information for beginners.

Points I plan to make:

I used to say Eat Less / Move More, but I think a truer statement is EAT BETTER / MOVE MORE. I will talk a little about fitness, my work does provide a free membership at a health club only 3 of them use.

I want them eating real whole foods and not boxed packaged stuff.

Reducing grain based carbs and getting fiber from fruits and vegetables.

Don't drink your calories (lots of soda drinkers), drink water/coffee/tea.

I plan on reviewing some typical fast food meals. We have a lot of guys that eat out at McDonalds and Popeyes every single day.

Because I have hunters, I do want to stress how awesome their fresh meat and fish is for them.

We also have a few diabetics, so I need to address that at least a little. One diabetic guy sits across from me and drinks Strawberry Crush while eating his cookies and chips for breakfast every morning. It's crazy!

I know I am not going to get through to everyone, but if even one of these guys improves their health and diet because of something I said, that would make me happy.

I WOULD LOVE SOME IDEAS OF INFORMATION TO INCLUDE, ESPECIALLY WITH THE UNDERSTANDING OF WHO MY AUDIENCE IS.

Cccb899526fb5908f64176e0a74ed2d9

(2801)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:45 PM

Granted, the McDonalds meal didn't rot because of the low moisture content and high level of sodium. Beef jerky doesn't rot either.

D3ff004d4a0c42b67cc2c49a5ee9c0f3

(5801)

on July 22, 2011
at 12:44 AM

Yes, there is nothing like talking down to your audience to really get them on your side. I can't count the number of times that I won a debate by calling the other person stupid.

Ab19df3ededa28f7bf7daeba8435b205

(1471)

on July 21, 2011
at 10:34 PM

I work for a trucking company, drivers are not stupid, no where did she imply they are stupid, she described them visually so you/anyone could relate. I believe that she was trying to describe the general nutrition or eating habits based on what they do. We have very few drivers that are thin and even them i would consider thin/fat. they eat at truck stops etc....Men in construction IN GENERAL either pack a sandwich, sometimes purchased with their morning coffee at the GATE gas station.... Melissa, good luck and I am looking forward to hearing the responses from your lunch and learn.

A912ff969107d3eda04ee78c683a6bc5

(178)

on July 21, 2011
at 10:33 PM

I like to say "Eat less, but eat the best less!"

A89f9751a97c3082802dc0bcbe4e9208

(13978)

on July 21, 2011
at 08:18 PM

Add cholesterol numbers on a carb-based diet vs numbers on a meat/fat-based diet.

A89f9751a97c3082802dc0bcbe4e9208

(13978)

on July 21, 2011
at 08:15 PM

I don't agree that whole grains are better than refined grains (ie brown rice better than white rice). The phytic acid is in the "whole" part of the grain and the glycemic index isn't affected *that* much by the a grain being whole or not. I think it's better to tell them to eat protein with every meal and snack, rather than tell them to each whole grains instead of refined grains.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 21, 2011
at 07:55 PM

And as a guy that does not eat meat himself, I am Switzerland so to speak.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 21, 2011
at 07:46 PM

It is assholes like this that give Vegans a bad reputation within this community. I know many Vegans that are very respectful of others choices. @TheVegan - go fuck yourself!

0fb8b3d6dcfb279b0f7e050d2d22510f

(4645)

on March 20, 2011
at 07:55 PM

And I understand your POV dealing with a convention (mixed up) audience. The fact that it is men might help. When I was on the road, drive throughs ruled- I'm now diabetic after reaching close to 300 lbs. Please have articles, web links that they can get answers- you will not be seen as an expert. Telling them no bread or cup cakes but yes to fats will be tough to handle...and they wio\ll not rtead Taubes so break him down. Cook for them and let them see that a small amount of paleo can really satisfy the whole day. Good luck.

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on March 20, 2011
at 05:32 PM

As a teacher I can assure you - you will always feel that you didn't do enough :) and worry about the reception. You planted the seeds of understanding and doubt (in SAD and junk food). That's very important - they will start wondering the next time they prepare sandwich :) If you convinced just one guy to drop just one processed "food" or junk food meal for a healthier option - you won!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 20, 2011
at 04:37 PM

Awww, thanks for asking! The guys listened well and my boss said I did a great job. I had a few comments from the guys also. I wasn't very impressed with myself. I didn't make most of the points -I- would consider important. I tried to focus on the things that I thought they might actually improve, so we talked about whole foods vs packaged foods, liquid calories and fast food. I only had 1/2 an hour. I don't know if I had an impact or not really, its only been 4 days since my talk.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 20, 2011
at 04:34 PM

LOL! I get your point. I meant more from what they've been taught their whole life, y'know? I know there is not wisdom in there.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on March 11, 2011
at 07:36 AM

I like this; there's something similar in Taubes also. But of course one possible response to the presentation is: "well yeah, I understand that if I eat less and do more it will make me hungry -- but that's perfectly consistent with losing weight." That is, they expect to be hungry during the 2 months or however long they think it will take to get to a new weight. The same deficit that makes them hungry is going to be the deficit that makes them lose weight.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 07, 2011
at 01:54 PM

I've worked with these guys for 9 years. I was not implying they were stupid at all. I will not talk down to them. I plan on imparting the information clearly, but you still need to look at your audience when putting things together. When I talk to people at the gym they generally have basic nutrition information. Most of these guys don't. I talk to them about it all the time when we discuss what I'm eating. Out of the 30 men, only 4 do not drive pick up trucks. Hunting does not imply they are stupid. And they really do say "Get R Done". They are good 'ol boys, not idiots.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on March 06, 2011
at 07:59 PM

Please let us know how the presentation works out. Kudos to you for getting up there and teaching what you believe in. If you break through to just a few people in the whole room and get them to embrace the subject and be passionate about it, then you've succeeded.

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on March 04, 2011
at 11:37 PM

Yea, many folks' grandmas wouldn't touch the newly-introduced margarine with a ten foot pole...partly because it was sold with yellow coloring to ADD after purchase. They were shrewd enough to immediately recognize the artificiality and write it off as substandard.

9e2180e7bfd688eb52d4f0c536172024

(2004)

on March 04, 2011
at 11:02 PM

LOVE the Grandma angle. She also didn't eat soy or cook with canola oil. In Grandma's day, canola was an industrial lubricant.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 08:54 PM

I know what you're saying Mari. I'm not going to get these guys to give up their bread though. At least not right away. The point of this "lunch and learn" is general nutrition. I may be able to avoid a nutritionist spouting conventional SAD wisdom at them, but I still have to stick to a somewhat "typical" discussion. I'm hoping my going with avoiding processed/packaged goods, they will avoid a lot of the bad stuff. Assuming any of them listen to me. :)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 08:41 PM

Thanks LB! Those are great points. I'd love to see that email. You can find me at sherpamelissa at gmail dot com, if you don't mind. :)

E2b9c679315c7c9c7265783dde89f350

(1303)

on March 04, 2011
at 08:35 PM

*lol* I hear that! I'm the cook in my family, but that doesn't mean that I get to make all the decisions. SAD spouses- oy! I do like the idea of a food log, though. It'll give them something concrete that they can point to and that you can say "good" or "bad" to.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:54 PM

Although I don't think whole grains are actually any better than refined ones. In small quantities, yes, but who ever eats small quantities of wheat? If you eat it, you have cereal, bread, pasta, etc.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:50 PM

Thanks WV! I plan on offering out food logs and if they want to review their food with me, I will be more than willing to do it. One of the things I'm worried about is most of these guys don't cook for themselves, so I have to come up with things that they can explain to their wives and not have them hate me for it. :)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:39 PM

Thanks Asclepius, I appreciate your input. I am not teaching these guys Paleo right now, though. Baby steps.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:38 PM

Thanks Eva! They question my "healthy" eating when I am eating eggs and bacon for breakfast, so I know I can win them over with some tasty food is not always bad info!

F040035b2008ec80b205481afbd39ad4

(1837)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:23 PM

Cheers. This concept had a profound effect on my thinking and usually stumps the paleo 'nay-sayers'! The thing is I have yet to meet anyone (non-paleo) who doesn't actually suggest eat less/do more to lose fat, and then go on to eat less/do more to make themselves more hungry. You can hear the coin drop. This approach really leaves them hanging - their logic in tatters. They might go off on a tangent saying "I'd never try to compel myself to eat more than usual" - but then I just ask them to play devil's advocate. This smashes the 'conventional wisdom' and I love it!

E2b9c679315c7c9c7265783dde89f350

(1303)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:12 PM

Hah! This is exactly what I've done! Now I'm all still water and raw milk, but it took me about 2 years to get here. Still have the rare gingerale (made with real sugar, organic- about once every 3 months) as a treat, but my usual treat is a Dr. Ayala ginger and lemonpeel water. Even that I dilute.

E2b9c679315c7c9c7265783dde89f350

(1303)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:09 PM

+1 for the example scenario. Particularly about the "how to compel yourselves to eat more" is the same as CW on how to lose weight. Love it!

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on March 04, 2011
at 05:14 PM

im so excited to hear how this goes, melissa! i think its pretty awesome.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on March 04, 2011
at 05:03 PM

Don't eat well, just don't eat bad: how not to poison yourself.

A5ead9de259ae72f2165ecb12f4ae764

(440)

on March 04, 2011
at 04:59 PM

Kudos to you for your efforts to educate others. Good luck!

Medium avatar

(12379)

on March 04, 2011
at 04:58 PM

oooh good one about the testosterone - that will definitely resonate with this audience

Medium avatar

(12379)

on March 04, 2011
at 04:56 PM

that is a great idea

Dbe5290b790e6e2d2bd59d581d9cf164

(324)

on March 04, 2011
at 04:08 PM

not at all. it'll give them reasoning to stop eating. just telling them to stop eating something they've been consuming for years without giving a reason for it will end up nowhere fast. if someone told me to stop drinking beer, i'd laugh at them. HARD. if someone said, you may want to considering cutting back on alcohol consumption due to its negative effects on protein synthesis due to about a 50% decrease in testosterone, and not to mention the effects on liver enzyme levels... then i would consider it. obviously you'd have to "dumb it down" a bit. but you get what i'm saying.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 03:56 PM

We have filtered water dispensers too. I was thinking about getting them all a BPA free water bottle to keep at their work stations!

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 04, 2011
at 03:38 PM

Definitely mention grains. Omega3/6/9 is "too much information", telling people "stop eating grain containing product" isn't.

1acc4ee9381d9a8d998b59915b3f997e

(2099)

on March 04, 2011
at 03:16 PM

@sherpamelissa: No, I haven't see that, but its totally funny because its true! A black brew, skunky and bitter...yuck, yuck, yuck, *may I have some more, please*?

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 03:11 PM

Very cool Roland, my email is sherpamelissa at gmail dot com. If you don't mind dropping me a line so I can have your address, I'd love to pick your brain with specific questions!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 03:10 PM

Oooh! Yes! Big Government! Perfect way to talk them out of grains!

Dbe5290b790e6e2d2bd59d581d9cf164

(324)

on March 04, 2011
at 03:00 PM

not a problem, i do nutritional presentations for middle/lower class americans in the weight transitions program i'm a part of (obviously i'm the personal trainer and nutritional guide). however, they're very similar in their modes of thinking. so no problem! if you have any other questions just let me know. :D

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:47 PM

Yes, thanks Shari!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:46 PM

Love the image of the deer eating twinkies Helen! Have you ever seen Open Season? A deer gets a cup of coffee out of a dumpster and it results in one of my favorite quotes ever. "Yuck! Yuck! Yuck! It's terrible and wonderful at the same time! It's freedom in a cup!" LOL.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:43 PM

Awesome suggestions, Roland. Thanks! I'm glad you know the guys I'm talking about. This will not be your standard nutrition class, in fact, they won't even want to be there.

E7a462d6e99fec7e8f0ddda11b34a770

(1638)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:35 PM

These are some really good, useable ideas, Shari.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:21 PM

Thanks Nico. You're right MEAT & POTATOES is something they will understand. I will ask them to throw in some veggies too. :)

02736efa3fda31740e8890eed0cb663d

(1813)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:21 PM

And promote grass-fed, I suppose- it's not like that is THAT out there or hard to do nowadays.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:20 PM

I know where you are coming from Jamie and I have personally eliminated gluten. Looking at my audience though, I am thinking that would be too much information and unlikely to happen. If I can get them to cut out processed/packaged food, that will help a lot!

02736efa3fda31740e8890eed0cb663d

(1813)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:17 PM

Meat and potatoes is about as simple as you can get (peal them taters). Add Kerrygold butter to your veggies. Done! ;-)

0dc1d63c3d5975f5115f535c6a90c9dd

(2283)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:16 PM

And reduce sugar!

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18 Answers

best answer

9
98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

on March 04, 2011
at 02:31 PM

Yep. Every journey starts with one small step. People get overwhelmed thinking they must change everything all at once. Anything you can do to impart the 30,000 ft view and give them ideas on simple things they can do to do better for themselves is great. Definitely let them know that even making one small change can be a powerful act would be a very good thing.

Michael Pollen has some great one liners that seem to resonate with people (His 12 commandments: "Don't eat anything your grandmother wouldn't recognize as food. Don't eat thing that won't eventually rot, etc) Try to find some sort of brain worm that they will remember the next time they are in the store or have any choice in what they put into their mouth.

Maybe a presentation similar to the "Eat this not that" swap idea would work well? (a pat of butter on one plate. A cup of corn oil on another. A potato on one plate. A bowl of noodles on another, etc) If you have the ability to actually have food samples there I think that can be very effective.

Good luck!

Edit: I just saw this and thought of you. I think these kinds of visuals can make a huge impact. I love the last line about if it's not good enough for bugs and bacteria it's not good enough for your kids (or you!) Love the McDonals meal that doesn't rot. You can google to find that if you like. Another good visual that most SAD eaters can understand. Might make a good opening to your talk.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:47 PM

Yes, thanks Shari!

E7a462d6e99fec7e8f0ddda11b34a770

(1638)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:35 PM

These are some really good, useable ideas, Shari.

Cccb899526fb5908f64176e0a74ed2d9

(2801)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:45 PM

Granted, the McDonalds meal didn't rot because of the low moisture content and high level of sodium. Beef jerky doesn't rot either.

10
D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

on March 04, 2011
at 03:07 PM

Agree with RolandPlain--the hunting angle will be the number 1 key that those guys will identify with the most. This will make them appreciate how unhealthy "grocery store items" can be.

Additionally, from what I know about the redneck types as you described them, play up the Big Government angle as well...corn and wheat subsidies, pharmaceutical interests and how it is in the government's best interest for them to be unhealthy. Maybe this will help motivate them to "stick it to the man" if you know what I mean!

So nice of you to put such an effort into helping out your co-workers! These men are an integral part of our society--blue collar, raising families etc. and they are sadly under-served in the health information arena. Kudos to you!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 03:10 PM

Oooh! Yes! Big Government! Perfect way to talk them out of grains!

D3ff004d4a0c42b67cc2c49a5ee9c0f3

(5801)

on July 22, 2011
at 12:44 AM

Yes, there is nothing like talking down to your audience to really get them on your side. I can't count the number of times that I won a debate by calling the other person stupid.

7
Dbe5290b790e6e2d2bd59d581d9cf164

on March 04, 2011
at 02:35 PM

Listen, don't stray away from grains too much. those "redneck" types will not listen. they're "meat and tater" guys. it'd be a good idea to mention the use of whole grains, and multigrains, rather than standard white pasta, and white bread, thats all processed bleached garbage. and all HIGH on the Glycemic index (aka an issue for diabetics, and cause rapid fat gain due to the storage hormone insulin). Focus in whole grains, oatmeal, and sweet potatoes. or carbs from fruit.

Soda, is a waste of calories. it is literally 28g's and up of sugar. 100ish calories of insulin spiking, fat stored SUGAR. not to mention that high fructose corn syrup is a chemical and doesn't break down in the body till it's half life has past.

Anything in a box should be avoided! processed food is what makes us sick as a culture!

You should seriously stress that game meat is the number 1 best thing in the world to eat, even the fat on it is incredibly healthy! tell them that the more they hunt and eat, the better. (they'll like this and see it as an excuse to take off of work to hunt, haha) Also I would do a break down of OMEGA 3's 6's and 9's, and which types of food contain them such as game meat, grain fed cattle, grains, fish, etc. explain the benefits and drawbacks of each type of oil. such as omega 3's fighting inflammation, and 6&9's causing it, and inflammation is normally a protective response, but SAD's contain 25 times more 6&9's than 3's therefore the body tends to OVER-inflame everything; i.e. leading to joint pain, arthitis (anything ending in itis is pain through inflammation), intestinal, arterial inflammation, high triglycerides, etc... Then break down that omega 3's from game and grass fed meat; fight inflammation, are an HDL triglyceride, thus lowering low density lipo-protein (LDL), can slightly thin blood lowering blood pressure, not to mention that 60% of the brain is made of DHA, and 90% of the eye is made of DHA as well, also every single cell wall in the body is made up of it.

Tell them that just because they can shoot insulin to regulate blood sugar doesn't mean they should use it constantly. There have been studies done where they monitored the effect of insulin on artery damage using blue dye, and when insulin was injected into the artery, it had a serious cratering effect (imagery: Imagine Bird shot from a 12 gauge onto a concrete wall). The final thought was that this could be the leading cause for needing amputation of limbs and heart disease/ heart attacks due to the rough surfaces collecting cholesterol (plaque).

So the main part is, focus on using multigrains, and lower GI index carbs, because the blue collar guys will never buy into the zero carb thing. Just get them to make better choices. Most of these guys would still rather trust lipitor to lower cholesterol rather than red yeast rice (same exact statin effect minus liver damage). GOOD LUCK!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:43 PM

Awesome suggestions, Roland. Thanks! I'm glad you know the guys I'm talking about. This will not be your standard nutrition class, in fact, they won't even want to be there.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:54 PM

Although I don't think whole grains are actually any better than refined ones. In small quantities, yes, but who ever eats small quantities of wheat? If you eat it, you have cereal, bread, pasta, etc.

Dbe5290b790e6e2d2bd59d581d9cf164

(324)

on March 04, 2011
at 03:00 PM

not a problem, i do nutritional presentations for middle/lower class americans in the weight transitions program i'm a part of (obviously i'm the personal trainer and nutritional guide). however, they're very similar in their modes of thinking. so no problem! if you have any other questions just let me know. :D

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 03:11 PM

Very cool Roland, my email is sherpamelissa at gmail dot com. If you don't mind dropping me a line so I can have your address, I'd love to pick your brain with specific questions!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 08:54 PM

I know what you're saying Mari. I'm not going to get these guys to give up their bread though. At least not right away. The point of this "lunch and learn" is general nutrition. I may be able to avoid a nutritionist spouting conventional SAD wisdom at them, but I still have to stick to a somewhat "typical" discussion. I'm hoping my going with avoiding processed/packaged goods, they will avoid a lot of the bad stuff. Assuming any of them listen to me. :)

A89f9751a97c3082802dc0bcbe4e9208

(13978)

on July 21, 2011
at 08:15 PM

I don't agree that whole grains are better than refined grains (ie brown rice better than white rice). The phytic acid is in the "whole" part of the grain and the glycemic index isn't affected *that* much by the a grain being whole or not. I think it's better to tell them to eat protein with every meal and snack, rather than tell them to each whole grains instead of refined grains.

5
Aebee51dc2b93b209980a89fa4a70c1e

(1982)

on March 04, 2011
at 04:49 PM

I think maybe a kind of "listen to your grandma" approach might work. I know a lot of those guys too, and they tend to be conservative, old-fashioned in ways, like to talk about how great America "used to be." Appeal to that. Your grandma wouldn't have bought any fake crap in a box...no instant oatmeal for her! She made her own oatmeal. She made pot roasts and pork chops and brisket. She told you to eat your vegetables. She told you that starches would make you fat. She DIDN'T tell you that fat would make you fat. She used real butter, not margarine. She gave you whole milk and cream. She made everything from scratch, and grew a lot of her stuff in her own garden. And so on... I think this appeal to "back when things were better" might work with your audience. Good luck!

9e2180e7bfd688eb52d4f0c536172024

(2004)

on March 04, 2011
at 11:02 PM

LOVE the Grandma angle. She also didn't eat soy or cook with canola oil. In Grandma's day, canola was an industrial lubricant.

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on March 04, 2011
at 11:37 PM

Yea, many folks' grandmas wouldn't touch the newly-introduced margarine with a ten foot pole...partly because it was sold with yellow coloring to ADD after purchase. They were shrewd enough to immediately recognize the artificiality and write it off as substandard.

4
F040035b2008ec80b205481afbd39ad4

on March 04, 2011
at 05:00 PM

Hi sherpamelissa. When I present the paleo concept to people I go through the following steps:

  1. Smash the 'eat less, do more' paradigm,
  2. Introduce the evolutionary thinking behind 'paleo', and finally,
  3. Explain broadly how to go about adopting a paleo diet.

With regard to the first point, ask the audience what they think they should do TO LOSE FAT. I am pretty sure that EVERY answer they give will be along the lines of the 'conventional wisdom':

  • 'EAT LESS food,' and,
  • 'DO MORE exercise'.

(You could use a whiteboard to categorise their ideas as such).

Now suggest to them the following scenario; "If we were to go out for a celebratory meal at an expensive restaurant and I told you to 'bring your appetite', what would you do to COMPEL yourselves to EAT MORE than usual?"

When I have asked this question, most of the answers I have received have fallen in to one of two categories. Most people suggest:

  • Skipping a meal prior to the restaurant visit, or eating smaller portions in the meal(s) prior to the restaurant (basically 'EAT LESS')
  • Go to the gym or for a walk or do some other exercise (to 'work up' an appetite). This approach is essentially 'DO MORE'

So you should see the paradox there; that the VERY thing we are told to do to LOSE WEIGHT ('eat less, do more'), is the VERY thing we'd do to COMPEL ourselves to eat more ('eat less, do more')!

This example should make things very clear to your audience.

When you see this paradox in such a stark example, the failure of the last 40 years of dietary advice becomes all too apparent.

HTHs

E2b9c679315c7c9c7265783dde89f350

(1303)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:09 PM

+1 for the example scenario. Particularly about the "how to compel yourselves to eat more" is the same as CW on how to lose weight. Love it!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:39 PM

Thanks Asclepius, I appreciate your input. I am not teaching these guys Paleo right now, though. Baby steps.

F040035b2008ec80b205481afbd39ad4

(1837)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:23 PM

Cheers. This concept had a profound effect on my thinking and usually stumps the paleo 'nay-sayers'! The thing is I have yet to meet anyone (non-paleo) who doesn't actually suggest eat less/do more to lose fat, and then go on to eat less/do more to make themselves more hungry. You can hear the coin drop. This approach really leaves them hanging - their logic in tatters. They might go off on a tangent saying "I'd never try to compel myself to eat more than usual" - but then I just ask them to play devil's advocate. This smashes the 'conventional wisdom' and I love it!

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on March 11, 2011
at 07:36 AM

I like this; there's something similar in Taubes also. But of course one possible response to the presentation is: "well yeah, I understand that if I eat less and do more it will make me hungry -- but that's perfectly consistent with losing weight." That is, they expect to be hungry during the 2 months or however long they think it will take to get to a new weight. The same deficit that makes them hungry is going to be the deficit that makes them lose weight.

3
A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

on March 20, 2011
at 01:59 PM

I am wondering about the results... Can you share? What were the reactions? Has anyone drastically changed his diet?

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 20, 2011
at 04:37 PM

Awww, thanks for asking! The guys listened well and my boss said I did a great job. I had a few comments from the guys also. I wasn't very impressed with myself. I didn't make most of the points -I- would consider important. I tried to focus on the things that I thought they might actually improve, so we talked about whole foods vs packaged foods, liquid calories and fast food. I only had 1/2 an hour. I don't know if I had an impact or not really, its only been 4 days since my talk.

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on March 20, 2011
at 05:32 PM

As a teacher I can assure you - you will always feel that you didn't do enough :) and worry about the reception. You planted the seeds of understanding and doubt (in SAD and junk food). That's very important - they will start wondering the next time they prepare sandwich :) If you convinced just one guy to drop just one processed "food" or junk food meal for a healthier option - you won!

3
66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

on March 04, 2011
at 08:38 PM

as far as educating people goes, the first thing to know is that you'll get a lot of pushback- even from the people who have begged you to help them and those who need it the most. it's really hard chipping away a lifetime of misinformation and debunking most of what the complicit relationship of the medical and research establishment, mainstream media and pharmaceutical companies have conditioned people to believe. the best line of defense is to have yourself as a model of what it can do- the more drastic the change the better. after that, point to others that have done the same as you successfully. the more examples the better. people who i see regularly- family, coworkers, friends- watched me effortlessly lose the bodyfat that has stubbornly hung around since they've known me. i didn't preach to them or even tell them what i was doing, i just showed up at work everyday with my 1b of meat for lunch and whatever vegetable i was having that day; at work functions i'd politely decline the cake or whatever treat they were having; at family functions and holidays i'd cook my own side dishes to have with whatever meat was there; and to top it off, i worked out half as much. after the first 20, i would get comments on how good i was looking. after the second 20, i started to get curious inquiries as to how i was eating bacon, tons of fat and looking amazing. by the time 50 dropped off, i had everyone's attention and was forced to start an email list and give everyone who inquired an abridged version of a primal lifestyle(i'm lacto-paleo). i have about 30 people- including my family who i have on my list and it's doubling as a means for slowly educating them followers on the reason WHY we do the conventional-wisdom bucking things we do, and as a moral and dietary support system. since i've been through it and voraciously read about this stuff ad infinitum, it's easy to hack out the reasons someone's stalled out or have quirky little issues pop up.

one more point that has been mentioned earlier but doesn't get discussed enough in these forums. there's a certain cultural and lifestyle element that may need to be addressed to get some people to buy in. for instance, for my dad, after months of badgering the last "bribe" i made to get him to buy in was simple. he could eat all the pork he liked. that one thing has enabled him to adhere to the diet(they've been telling southern blacks to get as far away as they can from the classic hamhock and neckbone soul food for the last 40-50 years) is the fact that he can boil pig's feet, ribs and neckbones til his heart's content. is it better than eating grassfed beef? no, but it's miles ahead of a SAD. i thought when someone mentioned pushing the hunting aspect to the more rural folks, that was pretty brilliant. as is pushing CSA's and cowshares to the hipsters and indie kids in the major cities. everyone isn't a crossfitting athlete or into every nutritional study that comes out. for most people to be successful, you have to find the most painless way possible to implement as many of the primal/paleo principals into their lifestyle.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 08:41 PM

Thanks LB! Those are great points. I'd love to see that email. You can find me at sherpamelissa at gmail dot com, if you don't mind. :)

3
62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on March 04, 2011
at 06:19 PM

I would stick with the parts of paleo that can't be argued with easily. For instance, saying that wheat might injure them could create some argument. It's not maintstream and not what they have heard. But if you say that grains have close to no nutrients and are just empty calories, that is something you can easily back up with nutrition charts and can't be easily argued with. What is the difference between bread and cake? Not much other than cake has more sugar. Yet people have for some reason been told bread is healthy. Show them nutrition charts for healthy foods vs not healthy foods. Teach them how to input and track their nutrition for a few days. That should be an eyeopener, having them see their lack of nutrition right in front of their eyes! I wish someone had done that for me a long time ago.

Good plan on emphasizing healthfulness of wild game. A message that they want to hear is always an easier message to portray. Another positive is to emphasize that many healthy foods are also tasty, like steak and taters. Simple messages are also easier like to avoid processed. And most things that never go bad are not healthy. Even the bugs don't want that food! What does that tell you? (of course, there are a few exceptions like beef jerky)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:38 PM

Thanks Eva! They question my "healthy" eating when I am eating eggs and bacon for breakfast, so I know I can win them over with some tasty food is not always bad info!

A89f9751a97c3082802dc0bcbe4e9208

(13978)

on July 21, 2011
at 08:18 PM

Add cholesterol numbers on a carb-based diet vs numbers on a meat/fat-based diet.

3
Medium avatar

(12379)

on March 04, 2011
at 03:52 PM

A suggestion for kicking the soda addiction is to ween slowly. I was super addicted to diet sodas; and I think a lot of the addiction was in the fizz and the sweetness, so I started by getting some great organic juice and doing 1/2 juice 1/2 soda water for a week or two, then 1/4 juice 3/4 soda water then finally soda water with a squueze of half an orange and half a lemon. Now I drink still water with the squeeze of lemon.

Cold turkey is tough as soda is like crack. When you are drinking the soda your tastebuds are accustomed to the over-sweetness of it - and it takes your 'buds some time to step down from the sweet. Now the smell of sweet soda makes me cringe.

Oh and - water is soooooo much cheaper than soda!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 03:56 PM

We have filtered water dispensers too. I was thinking about getting them all a BPA free water bottle to keep at their work stations!

E2b9c679315c7c9c7265783dde89f350

(1303)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:12 PM

Hah! This is exactly what I've done! Now I'm all still water and raw milk, but it took me about 2 years to get here. Still have the rare gingerale (made with real sugar, organic- about once every 3 months) as a treat, but my usual treat is a Dr. Ayala ginger and lemonpeel water. Even that I dilute.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on March 04, 2011
at 04:56 PM

that is a great idea

3
1acc4ee9381d9a8d998b59915b3f997e

(2099)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:41 PM

I agree that the "meat and potatoes" theme will go over well with your male, blue-collar audience. I would think that when most of those guys were kids, its what their mothers and grandmothers used to cook and feed them, so you might want to work that in somehow...that "paleo" is the way that their mothers and grandmothers cooked...before the corporations took over the food supply so badly. Perhaps you could make analogies to their hunting activities, in that they have to "scout out" good sources of food. Or that like if the deer at crap like twinkies all the time, that the deer would be unhealthy, too, and that the venison wouldn't taste good.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:46 PM

Love the image of the deer eating twinkies Helen! Have you ever seen Open Season? A deer gets a cup of coffee out of a dumpster and it results in one of my favorite quotes ever. "Yuck! Yuck! Yuck! It's terrible and wonderful at the same time! It's freedom in a cup!" LOL.

1acc4ee9381d9a8d998b59915b3f997e

(2099)

on March 04, 2011
at 03:16 PM

@sherpamelissa: No, I haven't see that, but its totally funny because its true! A black brew, skunky and bitter...yuck, yuck, yuck, *may I have some more, please*?

2
263e2d3f741d1ecb0886454e977f4e6f

on March 06, 2011
at 06:54 PM

My audience is about 30 men, blue collar workers, middle/middle class and lower middle class type guys. They drive pick up trucks, they hunt/fish, they like to say "Get R Done".

Right here is already an issue, you're already implying these men are stupid. I've met some very intelligent people who are "Blue Collar"!

With your implied attitude you're going to get resistance, they will pick up on this and probably refer to you in private as you think "Blue Collar" people would. When dealing with people, you'll get much further if you talk to them as equals vs. talking down to them.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 07, 2011
at 01:54 PM

I've worked with these guys for 9 years. I was not implying they were stupid at all. I will not talk down to them. I plan on imparting the information clearly, but you still need to look at your audience when putting things together. When I talk to people at the gym they generally have basic nutrition information. Most of these guys don't. I talk to them about it all the time when we discuss what I'm eating. Out of the 30 men, only 4 do not drive pick up trucks. Hunting does not imply they are stupid. And they really do say "Get R Done". They are good 'ol boys, not idiots.

Ab19df3ededa28f7bf7daeba8435b205

(1471)

on July 21, 2011
at 10:34 PM

I work for a trucking company, drivers are not stupid, no where did she imply they are stupid, she described them visually so you/anyone could relate. I believe that she was trying to describe the general nutrition or eating habits based on what they do. We have very few drivers that are thin and even them i would consider thin/fat. they eat at truck stops etc....Men in construction IN GENERAL either pack a sandwich, sometimes purchased with their morning coffee at the GATE gas station.... Melissa, good luck and I am looking forward to hearing the responses from your lunch and learn.

2
21084e275703e9a3909dafa28e5d29b5

(1103)

on March 04, 2011
at 08:50 PM

when coworkers ask me...I start with "eat REAL food"

For example, I tell them to eliminate (even if they have to wean themselves) from chemicals.

If you can't pronounce, grow, or hunt the ingredients, then your body can't process them either.

Most of the time this makes the most sense to people. If they don???t know what I???m talking about I use soda as an example. Most people, who aren???t in denial, would agree that it soda really isn't all that great for you. I then remind them of the "little things" they ingest throughout the day (like chemical coffee creamer, sugar substitutes, and margarine) and how those ???little things??? can add up quickly. You could even use the standard calories in/calories out for this. Once I have them on the hook, I move on to ???big items??? like frozen meals, vending machine items, pizza and explain that they should look at the ingredients there because most of the time ??? it is all chemicals, not food.

  • A tip I often give is look at the number of ingredients there are listed on a package ???if there are more than 3-5 then it is going to be mostly manmade, fake, and/or full of chemicals.

I would definitely encourage the hunting/fishing aspect of their life and tell them they are ALREADY on the right track. They should embrace and celebrate that part of their life and they could easily just cook up their kill/fresh meat and throw some veggies on the side. (dinner done!)

If you want to get slightly into the grains thing ??? this is what I do ??? I tell them it is about making the best choice you can at that time. So if you have the choice between leafy green veggies or whole wheat bread (or just regular bread if you don???t want to push too much) which is the better choice? The veggies. Why? Because, using the argument from above the veggies have LESS ingredients AND you could grow the veggies in your backyard??? Bread you would have to harvest the wheat, mill it, etc. then you would STILL have to add sugar, milk, eggs, salt, fat, yeast, baking soda, and leavening agents (aka chemicals) and bake it (and most of the time the store bought breads have even MORE chemicals in them to have a longer shelf life). Some of the time people are shocked by this or they ask about getting fiber and carbs. That???s when I tell them they can get all the fiber and carbs they need from veggies and fruit.

I always go for the chemicals processed foods vs. non-chemicals non-processed foods argument. Most people don???t like to accept it, but they know it???s the truth.

1
0fb8b3d6dcfb279b0f7e050d2d22510f

(4645)

on March 20, 2011
at 02:47 PM

SAD wisdom???????? Lost me. I'm not a serious Paleo dogma junkie but you need to never think there is wisdom in SAD

0fb8b3d6dcfb279b0f7e050d2d22510f

(4645)

on March 20, 2011
at 07:55 PM

And I understand your POV dealing with a convention (mixed up) audience. The fact that it is men might help. When I was on the road, drive throughs ruled- I'm now diabetic after reaching close to 300 lbs. Please have articles, web links that they can get answers- you will not be seen as an expert. Telling them no bread or cup cakes but yes to fats will be tough to handle...and they wio\ll not rtead Taubes so break him down. Cook for them and let them see that a small amount of paleo can really satisfy the whole day. Good luck.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 20, 2011
at 04:34 PM

LOL! I get your point. I meant more from what they've been taught their whole life, y'know? I know there is not wisdom in there.

1
95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on March 06, 2011
at 07:54 PM

I would be sure to spend a little time on soy and what it does over the long term to both men and women. There's soy products in all sorts of processed foods.

1
E2b9c679315c7c9c7265783dde89f350

on March 04, 2011
at 07:47 PM

What an amazing opportunity!

I originally arrived here by looking for the healthiest cooking oil. I used to deep fry in olive oil, and was very smug about it (I know, I know), but couldn't afford to do so any more, plus I began to hear about how olive oil goes rancid when heated. Long story short, I switched to coconut oil. A short time later, a coworker mentioned to me that he wanted to eat healthier- and the first thing out of my mouth was "use coconut oil!". He made the switch, and within a week was sleeping better, needing less sleep (his nickname had been "Sleeping Beauty"), and had so much energy to burn, he started walking to work, bought a bike, and when the weather turned foul, he got P90X to burn up his energy. He's now considering Paleo, and probably eats about 70/30 already.

All that to say, I suggest making healthy fats a focus. It's the easiest thing to change, and will give them the most immediate health benefits (taste, energy) as well as great long term benefits. I'd give a little background about how veg oil took over, and how it directly correlates to the rise in heart disease, not to mention how essential adequate food sources of cholesterol are for proper cellular function. Then tell them to not trim the fat off their venison, but if they do, to give it to you- demand increases value in the eyes of many, and you might get some free fat!.

I'd also discuss the rancidity issue of veg oils- if they're sufficiently disgusted, that alone will reduce some of the fast food consumption. And while I know that you want them off all processed food, that's not totally realistic for such a large group and only one nutrition session. It takes a long time for most to make big changes and the ones who want to know more will either seek you out or find out for themselves. So, and please don't pull out the pitchforks, I suggest mentioning to them that Kraft Mac & Cheese can in fact be made with butter. I kid you not. When I changed my fats, I kept margarine around because hubs loves Kraft M&C, and I didn't know if real butter would work. And the great thing is, using lots of healthy fats with unhealthy foods still satisfies you quicker, and so you eat less of the unhealthy foods (once your mind adjusts to the fact that your body doesn't want as much as it used to). Lots of healthy fat is actually the most painless way to reduce grain consumption.

I'd also point out that when discussing reducing soda consumption, that switching to diet is not a good idea (and add that it's also an addictive substance).

I'd also finish with an invitation for anyone who wants to know more to talk to you afterwards, and also list a few resources for more good information. Maybe Primal Blueprint, Why We Get Fat, that diabetes cure book (forget the title) and a website or two. I'd recommend Real Food, but I can't picture these guys being able to relate to a former vegetarian. On the other hand, my coworker (see above) is a mechanic, and he's the one that recommended that book to me.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 07:50 PM

Thanks WV! I plan on offering out food logs and if they want to review their food with me, I will be more than willing to do it. One of the things I'm worried about is most of these guys don't cook for themselves, so I have to come up with things that they can explain to their wives and not have them hate me for it. :)

E2b9c679315c7c9c7265783dde89f350

(1303)

on March 04, 2011
at 08:35 PM

*lol* I hear that! I'm the cook in my family, but that doesn't mean that I get to make all the decisions. SAD spouses- oy! I do like the idea of a food log, though. It'll give them something concrete that they can point to and that you can say "good" or "bad" to.

1
0dc1d63c3d5975f5115f535c6a90c9dd

(2283)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:15 PM

At the very least, eliminate gluten.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on March 04, 2011
at 04:58 PM

oooh good one about the testosterone - that will definitely resonate with this audience

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:20 PM

I know where you are coming from Jamie and I have personally eliminated gluten. Looking at my audience though, I am thinking that would be too much information and unlikely to happen. If I can get them to cut out processed/packaged food, that will help a lot!

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 04, 2011
at 03:38 PM

Definitely mention grains. Omega3/6/9 is "too much information", telling people "stop eating grain containing product" isn't.

0dc1d63c3d5975f5115f535c6a90c9dd

(2283)

on March 04, 2011
at 02:16 PM

And reduce sugar!

Dbe5290b790e6e2d2bd59d581d9cf164

(324)

on March 04, 2011
at 04:08 PM

not at all. it'll give them reasoning to stop eating. just telling them to stop eating something they've been consuming for years without giving a reason for it will end up nowhere fast. if someone told me to stop drinking beer, i'd laugh at them. HARD. if someone said, you may want to considering cutting back on alcohol consumption due to its negative effects on protein synthesis due to about a 50% decrease in testosterone, and not to mention the effects on liver enzyme levels... then i would consider it. obviously you'd have to "dumb it down" a bit. but you get what i'm saying.

0
967229edcc94a66580110324524feb49

(688)

on July 21, 2011
at 08:04 PM

I'd talk about the financial impact. You eat McD a couple times a week or all week that = $xx.xx, what can you do with that money?

Then I'd talk about calories/weightloss. Go to McDonalds and buy a meal listed on the board w/ soda. Get the calories and bring in the equivalent in whole food. Also, while at McDs get a couple extra meal bags and put together a visual display of how many meals from McDs = another lb to that waistline.

Then talk about te importance of eating better and excerising, afterall guys like these support their families. They need to be healthy so they can be around to take care of them and someday enjoy retirement.

-3
Efa33361aa944d9f4d98d77a0109e74b

on July 21, 2011
at 07:43 PM

Mark Sisson is a complete f u c k i n g quack making a monetary killing off of stupid people's ignorance. The guy is not a scientific authroity on anything. He, his forum mebers and his staff are all j e r k o f f s. He is one of a long line of scammers tryng to separate you from your money. His assertions are not those of reputable anthropologists. I despise people like him. Stop following these weirdo corny Internet gurus.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 21, 2011
at 07:46 PM

It is assholes like this that give Vegans a bad reputation within this community. I know many Vegans that are very respectful of others choices. @TheVegan - go fuck yourself!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 21, 2011
at 07:55 PM

And as a guy that does not eat meat himself, I am Switzerland so to speak.

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