3

votes

Gary Taubes GCBC critique/breakdown

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created December 31, 2012 at 10:11 PM

The guy that made those paleo critique videos just released a bunch of video's about the first part of GCBC and the whole lipid hypothesis/diet heart/saturated fat. It's definitely worth a look to see both sides.

Starts here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QImWYirF0es&list=PLv3QDzdxan_JkGX47Rpboyh2oYyAFZDBA&index=1

Thoughts?

141c6b3d5e9506dd93881e3f9737f297

(55)

on March 05, 2014
at 06:03 AM

bump...

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on January 15, 2013
at 03:36 AM

What is his point in the second part of the book? I would love to know and hope you can sum it up for me:)

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on January 15, 2013
at 03:35 AM

James, what is his point in the 2nd part of the book, if you do not mind asking?

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 15, 2013
at 03:17 AM

The videos actually focus on the first part of the book about sat fat/lipid hypothesis. The 2nd part of the book about carbs/insulin/obesity isn't even worth debunking.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 07, 2013
at 08:39 PM

Your critique is good but Guyenet is still the standard for me. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html?m=1

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on January 07, 2013
at 06:10 PM

Yes, it is great that more and more people are pro-fat! :)

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on January 07, 2013
at 05:54 PM

I agree with you. I think GT would probably agree with you too. I think his "Insulin hypothesis" is pretty much busted. However, I'll always love the man for his demolition of the diet-heart hypothesis (in the public domain). GT made low-carbing socially acceptable, not cos of insulin, but because he showed the "fat is going to kill you thing" is BS.

7a6529ea25b655132fe58d793f95547a

(2030)

on January 06, 2013
at 05:19 AM

"of which you your probably familiar"- sorry dude, that sounds like an insult after reading it over. I meant it as a compliment.

7a6529ea25b655132fe58d793f95547a

(2030)

on January 06, 2013
at 05:13 AM

Maybe I should listen to the videos but I've just grown tired of that argument, I'm more interested in discussing the amount of animal foods in the diet will produce the best overall health for the longest duration.

7a6529ea25b655132fe58d793f95547a

(2030)

on January 06, 2013
at 05:08 AM

As to the presenter in question I have a hard time seeing eye to eye with someone who espouses a vegan diet. I was a disaster after following a vegan diet for a little while, and have since learned why: copper toxicity from a lack of zinc, and an absence of other critical brain nutrients of which your probably familiar.

7a6529ea25b655132fe58d793f95547a

(2030)

on January 06, 2013
at 04:58 AM

Ya I read her post too, I found it interesting. I don't really have a beef with Ancel Keys and I'm not too quick to judge him anymore. His starvation studies were really insightful. I just think the dietary recommendations that stemmed from his research were misguided. Clearly a one size fits all approach for everyone isn't working.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 04, 2013
at 03:42 AM

Good to see some stay open minded. My beliefs in diet aren't set in stone to the point I defend it to the grave no matter what. There's always other sides of argument, ones that I never would of seen if I was only reading paleo blogs. I can't understand how people following this lifestyle wouldn't be interested in well put together, intelligent counter views.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 03, 2013
at 11:13 PM

People fail to see that it's a matter of degree, and not always black and white. Some paleo is better than no paleo.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 03, 2013
at 06:46 AM

Well the whole Keyes story for starters. The paleo/low carb version of Ancel keyes is blatant propaganda being recycled and recycled without anyone even questioning it. The only one who attempted to correct some of the myths was Denise and she didn't even start it.

7a6529ea25b655132fe58d793f95547a

(2030)

on January 02, 2013
at 03:55 AM

James, is there a specific study in those videos you think is questionable? If so do you want to point to the time and in what video it's in. I don't mean to be rude, but at this point it just seems like your trying to drive traffic over there.

7a6529ea25b655132fe58d793f95547a

(2030)

on January 02, 2013
at 03:51 AM

http://healthydietsandscience.blogspot.ca/2010/10/vegetable-oils-implicated-in-increased.html http://healthydietsandscience.blogspot.ca/search/label/Saturated%20Fat%20and%20Heart%20Disease http://healthydietsandscience.blogspot.ca/search/label/Gluten%20Free%20Diet%20and%20Cancer

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 02, 2013
at 02:19 AM

Are you serious? You complain about there not being enough evidence about cholesterol yet you make unfounded statements about seed oils and grains.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 02, 2013
at 12:54 AM

YEA, seriously, Fat Head, it's just as biased as this pos except in the opposite direction and he raises some valid points just like you claim this guy does. Low carb sucks too, but the point shouldn't be the low carb is optimal, it should be that saturated fat and cholesterol are perfectly healthy, end of discussion. If you want something that actually causes heart disease try seed oils, if you want something that causes cancer try grains.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 02, 2013
at 12:48 AM

Poorly planned any diet can result in deficiencies, what I'm telling you is that there are NO clinical studies showing a causative role of dietary cholesterol or saturated fat in heart disease deaths in this man's 15 video, 3 hour+ presentation, this is a SERIOUS flaw. I don't agree with vlc and I don't agree with this crackpot's biased video, it's crap and one sided propaganda. He defends sugar in one of those videos, wtf.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 11:58 PM

He covers lots of clinical studies which compare the effects of different fats. Yes, poorly planned vegetarian diets can result in deficiencies and health risks. There's also many studies that show vegetarians do well. In fact, on the same page you linked theres another article saying they have a lower risk. That's besides the point though as I don't really care for the omnivore vs vegetarian debate myself.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 11:45 PM

Seriously, Fat head? An "it's all about insulin" low-carb propaganda video by a comedian. I was a low carber for about 3 years I'm well aware of fathead and I'm well read on Taubes, attia, colpo, sisson, cordain, davis, wolf, etc. He checks a lot of taubes references and shows they don't say what Taubes implied they did at all.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 01, 2013
at 11:32 AM

Some of masterjohn's articles are discussed in this video series? If you're really an interested spectator then I'd advise you as a spectator to watch equal portions of something like fat head on top of this. This guy is just so biased, every time he says some stupid shit like, when quoting something from taubes that he picked he's like, "first of all this is a bad sentence" then goes on to argue against it and I'm like wtf does somebody's sentence structure have to do with this? Watching this is like watching war propaganda from the 40s, 10% truth 90% spin.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 01, 2013
at 11:13 AM

He covers many epidemiological studies, I'm asking you which videos he covers clinical studies showing saturated fat or cholesterol cause heart disease, I didn't see it in the first 5 videos, but there's a chance I may have skipped over it as I was skimming them. It just doesn't make sense though man that saturated fat causes heart disease yet vegans have an elevated risk for heart disease http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110202082307.htm .

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 05:12 AM

I'm not a vegan. I no longer have my identity or beliefs tied up in any dietary WOE. I'm merely an interested spectator in the nutrition debates these days. I've read a lot from Masterjohn and his views and some articles are actually covered in the videos.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 05:06 AM

He covers many studies and risk factors. Also many studies and follow ups with people who have genetic mutations involving cholesterol. I can guarantee you'll change your views on at least a few things if you watch the whole series.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:40 AM

I can't tell if your a vegan propagandist or if you genuinely care, but if you want to really see a genius pov on heart disease and cholesterol/saturated fat then I HIGHLY recommend the work of Chris Masterjohn, http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Does-Cholesterol-Cause-Heart-Disease-Myth.html .

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:25 AM

Keyes studying how cholesterol causes atherosclerosis in herbivore Rabbits or pointing out a correlation that would've held if you replaced saturated fat with sugar is way too simplistic...

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:23 AM

Cool, out of the 10, which one(s) does he show and evaluate clinical studies in humans showing saturated fat or cholesterol cause heart disease?

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:21 AM

That interpretation of the keyes story was wrong and way too simplistic.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:21 AM

I got to 5 and at 1:06 I wanted to punch the narrator in his indirect passive sarcastic smug face, just saying, this guy isn't a scientist he's a propagandist.

7a6529ea25b655132fe58d793f95547a

(2030)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:12 AM

Or maybe not at all.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:11 AM

He does cover lots of clinical data. I agree it starts off slow but he does go VERY in depth if you watch the series. Maybe start at video 4 or so and watch with an open mind.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:08 AM

Maybe the 4th..

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:05 AM

Keyes was 100% wrong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 01:42 AM

"That's certainly true james. He raises some intelligent points, I just wish he didn't often seem influenced by his bias" He doesn't hide his stance/bias. But neither do the paleo's/low carbers and cholesterol skeptics who I have read.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 01:32 AM

@borofergie. Keyes wasn't 100% wrong. He covers it in his videos. There's some misinformation propagated about keyes. It doesn't all stem from Ancel keyes though, there's a lot more info and studies on meat/fat that pre-dates keyes research.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 01:28 AM

"if saturated fat were as bad as it were made out to be" That's the thing though, it might not be as bad as people think in the context of other problematic foods and risk factors. But a lot of people aren't taking a moderate approach and fall more in to the "healthy saturated fat for everyone! There's no unsafe consumption limit"

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on January 01, 2013
at 12:38 AM

I don't think there is another side to the story. At least not one that has any scientific basis. You don't have to believe that Taubes is 100% right to know that Keys was 100% wrong.

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on January 01, 2013
at 12:35 AM

As Richard Feinman says: "if saturated fat were as bad as it is made out to be, there wouldn't be a single failure of a big trial, not one. In fact, they almost all fail, even the ones that the WHI thinks were a success but you have to read the original carefully My take on the Oslo diet, for example, http://wp.me/p16vK0-5t, shows that it is film-flam. And why are do we have so many studies? If there were a serious risk of CVD, it would have been settled. Is there a null hypothesis in saturated fat?" http://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/tag/oslo/

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 01, 2013
at 12:21 AM

That's certainly true james. He raises some intelligent points, I just wish he didn't often seem influenced by his bias.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 12:18 AM

He definitely shows there's another side to the story.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 01, 2013
at 12:17 AM

Damn, time to stop eating butter guys, someone cited the oslo diet heart study and then ignored its multiple dietary interventions.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 12:09 AM

Or maybe the third

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 12:07 AM

yeah he starts off pretty slow. Maybe start on the 2nd video.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on December 31, 2012
at 10:29 PM

If the fella spoke at a normal rate coulda shortened it it 3 minutes or so.....that and its kinda weird to have so many youtube clips within a youtube clip. I couldn't get past the first five minutes due to the general slowness of the whole thing. Maybe I could read the trascript...

  • 5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

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5 Answers

5
A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 03, 2013
at 09:05 PM

I've been watching these a number of these videos. There's actually a lot of interesting information that I wish he could put into a readily accessible format so more people might be more inclined to see it (hours of him talking and giving sass to people he disagrees with don't really fit that bill). But he really challenges a lot of the the pro cholesterol/saturated fat arguments and I think we need to really listen to some of the points he raises if we want to keep our opinions dogma free.

Of course, the 2 downvotes (after my upvote) on this question tell me people here aren't very open minded to ideas they don't agree with.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 03, 2013
at 11:13 PM

People fail to see that it's a matter of degree, and not always black and white. Some paleo is better than no paleo.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 04, 2013
at 03:42 AM

Good to see some stay open minded. My beliefs in diet aren't set in stone to the point I defend it to the grave no matter what. There's always other sides of argument, ones that I never would of seen if I was only reading paleo blogs. I can't understand how people following this lifestyle wouldn't be interested in well put together, intelligent counter views.

3
B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on December 31, 2012
at 10:46 PM

What? He's proved that the diet-heart hypothesis is correct after all? That's his Nobel prize sorted then.

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on January 01, 2013
at 12:38 AM

I don't think there is another side to the story. At least not one that has any scientific basis. You don't have to believe that Taubes is 100% right to know that Keys was 100% wrong.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 12:18 AM

He definitely shows there's another side to the story.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:05 AM

Keyes was 100% wrong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 01, 2013
at 12:21 AM

That's certainly true james. He raises some intelligent points, I just wish he didn't often seem influenced by his bias.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 01:32 AM

@borofergie. Keyes wasn't 100% wrong. He covers it in his videos. There's some misinformation propagated about keyes. It doesn't all stem from Ancel keyes though, there's a lot more info and studies on meat/fat that pre-dates keyes research.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:25 AM

Keyes studying how cholesterol causes atherosclerosis in herbivore Rabbits or pointing out a correlation that would've held if you replaced saturated fat with sugar is way too simplistic...

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on January 01, 2013
at 12:17 AM

Damn, time to stop eating butter guys, someone cited the oslo diet heart study and then ignored its multiple dietary interventions.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 01:42 AM

"That's certainly true james. He raises some intelligent points, I just wish he didn't often seem influenced by his bias" He doesn't hide his stance/bias. But neither do the paleo's/low carbers and cholesterol skeptics who I have read.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 01:28 AM

"if saturated fat were as bad as it were made out to be" That's the thing though, it might not be as bad as people think in the context of other problematic foods and risk factors. But a lot of people aren't taking a moderate approach and fall more in to the "healthy saturated fat for everyone! There's no unsafe consumption limit"

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on January 01, 2013
at 12:35 AM

As Richard Feinman says: "if saturated fat were as bad as it is made out to be, there wouldn't be a single failure of a big trial, not one. In fact, they almost all fail, even the ones that the WHI thinks were a success but you have to read the original carefully My take on the Oslo diet, for example, http://wp.me/p16vK0-5t, shows that it is film-flam. And why are do we have so many studies? If there were a serious risk of CVD, it would have been settled. Is there a null hypothesis in saturated fat?" http://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/tag/oslo/

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:21 AM

That interpretation of the keyes story was wrong and way too simplistic.

2
F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on January 07, 2013
at 04:48 PM

Would it be okay if I come up with my own critique of Gary Taubes instead?

Humans adapt to their environments. The best diets out there are the diets of indigenous people who have learned to utilize their environment and everything it produces in the best possible way.

If high carb is so bad for us, why are then Okinawans and Greek Islanders, among others are the healthiest and longest living people on earth?

There are tons of flaws in Gary Taubes theory. Let me name a few:

It is not the amount of carbs that matters, it is the type/source of carbs. If you feed one person high grain-fed fat and high protein meal out of a can, and you feed another person a high carb diet where all carbs are not in a processed form and are organically grown - who do you think is going to live longer?

I bet it is going to be a high carb person.

Not all carbs are made equal. Not all fats are good for you.

I disagree with this Youtube's person critique. It is poorly made. If you are going to critique Gary Taubes (and he needs it badly), do it the right way. Thanks for the link though.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 07, 2013
at 08:39 PM

Your critique is good but Guyenet is still the standard for me. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html?m=1

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on January 07, 2013
at 05:54 PM

I agree with you. I think GT would probably agree with you too. I think his "Insulin hypothesis" is pretty much busted. However, I'll always love the man for his demolition of the diet-heart hypothesis (in the public domain). GT made low-carbing socially acceptable, not cos of insulin, but because he showed the "fat is going to kill you thing" is BS.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on January 07, 2013
at 06:10 PM

Yes, it is great that more and more people are pro-fat! :)

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on January 15, 2013
at 03:35 AM

James, what is his point in the 2nd part of the book, if you do not mind asking?

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 15, 2013
at 03:17 AM

The videos actually focus on the first part of the book about sat fat/lipid hypothesis. The 2nd part of the book about carbs/insulin/obesity isn't even worth debunking.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on January 15, 2013
at 03:36 AM

What is his point in the second part of the book? I would love to know and hope you can sum it up for me:)

141c6b3d5e9506dd93881e3f9737f297

(55)

on March 05, 2014
at 06:03 AM

bump...

2
532cfd279d793e8fcc23b9f6d91dde5c

(1981)

on January 01, 2013
at 07:11 AM

I'm sorry, I watched the series and I really am not impressed, nor am I finding my opinions changed by this ineffective and unconvincing speaker. I tried, I am willing to listen to new information that changes my mind, but this isn't it.

2
Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:01 AM

I went straight to 5:00 minutes after he brought up the great but misplaced quote about "he who controls the" by Orwell in the beginning. From 5:00-6:00 I could see this guy was a total crock, arguing some fried pork rind shit, who cares if somebody recommends fried pork rinds, seriously. I skimmed videos 2 and 3 waiting for real evidence but this whole series Is utter crap. If he wants to prove something he'd be better off duplicating key's studies in humans instead of herbivore rabbits. I mean hell, if the case against saturated fat is so solid in his view, why is he wasting his time with taubes, he should just cover the Clinical data and call it a day. Maybe he isn't covering the clinical data because the clinical studies in normal healthy humans don't support his ideas? Idk, but that would make for a much more convincing argument instead of this epidemiological and rabbit load of crock, no offense to OP.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:11 AM

He does cover lots of clinical data. I agree it starts off slow but he does go VERY in depth if you watch the series. Maybe start at video 4 or so and watch with an open mind.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 01, 2013
at 11:13 AM

He covers many epidemiological studies, I'm asking you which videos he covers clinical studies showing saturated fat or cholesterol cause heart disease, I didn't see it in the first 5 videos, but there's a chance I may have skipped over it as I was skimming them. It just doesn't make sense though man that saturated fat causes heart disease yet vegans have an elevated risk for heart disease http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110202082307.htm .

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 05:06 AM

He covers many studies and risk factors. Also many studies and follow ups with people who have genetic mutations involving cholesterol. I can guarantee you'll change your views on at least a few things if you watch the whole series.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 01, 2013
at 02:23 AM

Cool, out of the 10, which one(s) does he show and evaluate clinical studies in humans showing saturated fat or cholesterol cause heart disease?

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on January 02, 2013
at 12:48 AM

Poorly planned any diet can result in deficiencies, what I'm telling you is that there are NO clinical studies showing a causative role of dietary cholesterol or saturated fat in heart disease deaths in this man's 15 video, 3 hour+ presentation, this is a SERIOUS flaw. I don't agree with vlc and I don't agree with this crackpot's biased video, it's crap and one sided propaganda. He defends sugar in one of those videos, wtf.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on January 01, 2013
at 11:58 PM

He covers lots of clinical studies which compare the effects of different fats. Yes, poorly planned vegetarian diets can result in deficiencies and health risks. There's also many studies that show vegetarians do well. In fact, on the same page you linked theres another article saying they have a lower risk. That's besides the point though as I don't really care for the omnivore vs vegetarian debate myself.

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