1

votes

entering into ketosis on a high carb diet

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 21, 2012 at 5:13 PM

If I was to eat Paleo carbs: fruit and starch without fat each night ad libitum until full then have an overnight fast during sleep plus do fasted training in the morning with about 20-25 sets of high intensity weight lifting would that be enough to induce a state of ketosis

since liver glycogen status is the determinant of ketosis.

keep in mind that the amount of carbs eaten at night would be only filling glycogen stores since i am low carbing all day and carbing up at night before bed.

additionally I am exercising in the day which will also contribute to glycogen depletion on top of the low carb day.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 26, 2012
at 04:00 PM

trying to find a balance between physique and cognitive function i suppose or having my cake and eating it too...

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 26, 2012
at 03:59 PM

actually that is my current plan a tkd approach. my reason for doing this is mental. when I initially went low carb a couple years back my brain changed completely and I was able to focus in school without the use of medication. one problem: exercise and muscle glycogen (among other minor symptoms). now whenver i step out of ketosis I can't get into my schoolwork at all it doesn't click until i hit a strong ketogenic state then its smooth sailing and my marks are really good.

3327924660b1e2f8f8fc4ca27fedf2b2

(2919)

on April 26, 2012
at 08:47 AM

Cycling through ketosis and glycolysis is kind of silly, especially considering the OP wanted to be in ketosis. Ketosis is also not catabolic by nature. If anything, glycolysis is more catabolic than ketone/FA metabolism.

93eea7754e6e94b6085dbabbb48c0bb7

on April 25, 2012
at 10:59 PM

I don't know if it is such a good idea to eat so many carbs right before bed. Personally, if you want to induce a state of ketosis, I would eat those carbs right before your work-out, then exercise extremely hard and not touch carbs for the rest of the day: this will easily induce a state of ketosis in my opinion. Why are you interested in doing this anyways?

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on April 25, 2012
at 04:52 PM

Thanks, I wouldn't make this up. I kinda KNEW I was in Ketosis. You just kinda know. I had all the symptoms. Strong smelling urine. Metallic taste.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 24, 2012
at 02:13 PM

Well, I wasn't assuming you'd just adopt his plan whole cloth. I figured you could get some good ideas. The ketogenic diet Jaminet is talking about is for treatment. What you are talking about sounds like what some people do with honey- taking it right before bed to keep liver glycogen steady throughout the night. This approach, at the proper dosage, would actually work pretty well. I am not sure what the appropriate dosage is yet. I just got a copy of Honey Revolution to read.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 23, 2012
at 07:49 PM

summary: take supplements (no thanks) or eat coconut oil to supply dietary ketones. whatever problems or goals I have I cannot see them being cured simply by the fact the I eat coconut products even if a ketogenic diet heals my neurological condition.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 23, 2012
at 07:33 PM

okay thanks August I'll take a look at those...

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on April 21, 2012
at 11:33 PM

hey thanks for the clarification. That's what I assumed. Why isn't there a word for the kind(s) of fat burning that aren't ketogenic? Or, is there?

22fcea5ec4415ff2238c663324aca40f

(556)

on April 21, 2012
at 10:28 PM

Some weeks I may only get the weekend to go hard and push myself physically, so I'll train for 4-6 hours each day only eating a few meals (mostly eggs and deer), and at night eat a bunch of carbs (it's just kinda what I crave so I go for it) anyway, on the second day I'll wake up after a long night sleep and have the same thing happen.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 21, 2012
at 09:49 PM

Ketosis is a form of fat burning but not all fat burning is ketogenic.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 21, 2012
at 08:42 PM

i don't know who downvoted you but im gunna upvote you because i like the fact that you had a personal experience which adds the the list of anecdotal evidnence in support of my question's goals.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 21, 2012
at 08:41 PM

so in other words my question would relate to having full liver glycogen stores the night before undergoind an overnight fast plus fasted training and low carbing the rest of that day up until after supper/bedtime

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 21, 2012
at 08:40 PM

this would be a targeted approach but with the preworkout carbs moved to the night before rather than directly before the workout. other than that i usually just eat glucose type starches preworkout. i just figured this way i could eliminate some liver glycogen while maintaining a higher level of muscle glycogen as the amount on a tkd seem limited and liver glycogen replenishment at times may be useful for anti catabolic purposes which id rather allocate to sleeping hours

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8 Answers

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4
C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

on April 21, 2012
at 05:31 PM

That's weird. That happened to me last night. I was skating for 4 hours and that whole day I zero-carbed. I had some carbs (potatoes and spinach ) ALOT before bed but slept for 11 hours. Woke up this morning with a metallic taste in my mouth and strong smelling urine. I knew I was in ketosis. I guess the carbs only partially filled up my liver glycogen so I used that up during night time.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 21, 2012
at 08:42 PM

i don't know who downvoted you but im gunna upvote you because i like the fact that you had a personal experience which adds the the list of anecdotal evidnence in support of my question's goals.

22fcea5ec4415ff2238c663324aca40f

(556)

on April 21, 2012
at 10:28 PM

Some weeks I may only get the weekend to go hard and push myself physically, so I'll train for 4-6 hours each day only eating a few meals (mostly eggs and deer), and at night eat a bunch of carbs (it's just kinda what I crave so I go for it) anyway, on the second day I'll wake up after a long night sleep and have the same thing happen.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on April 25, 2012
at 04:52 PM

Thanks, I wouldn't make this up. I kinda KNEW I was in Ketosis. You just kinda know. I had all the symptoms. Strong smelling urine. Metallic taste.

2
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 23, 2012
at 07:07 PM

If you haven't seen Paul Jaminet's posts on creating a ketogenic diet, I recommend them.

Part One, and Part 2

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 23, 2012
at 07:49 PM

summary: take supplements (no thanks) or eat coconut oil to supply dietary ketones. whatever problems or goals I have I cannot see them being cured simply by the fact the I eat coconut products even if a ketogenic diet heals my neurological condition.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 24, 2012
at 02:13 PM

Well, I wasn't assuming you'd just adopt his plan whole cloth. I figured you could get some good ideas. The ketogenic diet Jaminet is talking about is for treatment. What you are talking about sounds like what some people do with honey- taking it right before bed to keep liver glycogen steady throughout the night. This approach, at the proper dosage, would actually work pretty well. I am not sure what the appropriate dosage is yet. I just got a copy of Honey Revolution to read.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 23, 2012
at 07:33 PM

okay thanks August I'll take a look at those...

2
1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

on April 21, 2012
at 05:51 PM

Yeah man I think it's possible. I eat carbs and know I'm burning fat b/c I most of my carbs are post workout and mostly glucose, so it goes to fill muscle glycogen as opposed to liver glycogen.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 21, 2012
at 09:49 PM

Ketosis is a form of fat burning but not all fat burning is ketogenic.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on April 21, 2012
at 11:33 PM

hey thanks for the clarification. That's what I assumed. Why isn't there a word for the kind(s) of fat burning that aren't ketogenic? Or, is there?

1
7fb4e9fb1162999cdd5099fee49dd0a7

on April 26, 2012
at 03:45 PM

This is definitely possible. Consider an active pregnant woman, she's depleting her glycogen stores at an accelerated pace due to the dependent bun in the oven (also doubles up as a weighted fanny pack). Also, I don't know how many of you have been in the extended presence of pregnant women, but they don't tend to crave beef jerky & kale, yet by bedtime, ketones will be excreting left, right and center. Futhermore ketones, though produced in extreme situations - such as depleting carbohydrates - is not exclusive as such.

Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia regarding ketoneogenesis:

Ketone bodies are produced mainly in the mitochondria of liver cells, synthesis can occur in response to unavailability of blood glucose. This is caused by low blood glucose levels in the blood, after exhaustion of cellular carbohydrate stores, such as glycogen or ironically, synthesis of ketones can occur due to excessively high levels of blood glucose that are unable to be stored as glycogen in liver and muscle.

Not sure if that really answers the original question, but interesting nonetheless.

1
Medium avatar

on April 26, 2012
at 02:24 AM

Are you fat adapted already? Can you go three days with 125 g of carbs in total and feel fine? If so, I would recommend MCT oil and possibly bulletproof coffee during your waking hours. High fat low protein. And since you are doing so many carbs at night I would do zero carb during other hours.

If you have yet to be become fully fat adapted I would cut carbs under 40g per day. You don't need to count leafy greens because you need to burn glucose to digest them and you don't want to eat more than 30 g protein in a sitting. Anymore than that will just get stored as glycogen. Dr. Peter Attia had problems entering ketosis because of this.

I would also wonder why you are doing this protocol. Do you only have access to certain foods at certain times? If you have access to all foods maybe do carb re feeding with yams/sweet potatoes?

1
93eea7754e6e94b6085dbabbb48c0bb7

on April 25, 2012
at 11:00 PM

I don't know if it is such a good idea to eat so many carbs right before bed. Personally, if you want to induce a state of ketosis, I would eat those carbs right before your work-out, then exercise extremely hard and not touch carbs for the rest of the day: this will easily induce a state of ketosis in my opinion. Why are you interested in doing this anyways?

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 26, 2012
at 04:00 PM

trying to find a balance between physique and cognitive function i suppose or having my cake and eating it too...

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 26, 2012
at 03:59 PM

actually that is my current plan a tkd approach. my reason for doing this is mental. when I initially went low carb a couple years back my brain changed completely and I was able to focus in school without the use of medication. one problem: exercise and muscle glycogen (among other minor symptoms). now whenver i step out of ketosis I can't get into my schoolwork at all it doesn't click until i hit a strong ketogenic state then its smooth sailing and my marks are really good.

1
5e36f73c3f95eb4ea13a009f4936449f

(8280)

on April 21, 2012
at 06:03 PM

Potentially, but you're probably not going to get there. It really depends on your body though. The issue is, it doesn't really take much in the way of carbs (assuming you're porking out like you say you are) to top off your liver. For example, fructose in the fruit will pretty much go directly to the liver (since that's the only spot that can process it). If you want to do the carbs, I'd look more into targetted or cyclic keto diets.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 21, 2012
at 08:41 PM

so in other words my question would relate to having full liver glycogen stores the night before undergoind an overnight fast plus fasted training and low carbing the rest of that day up until after supper/bedtime

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 21, 2012
at 08:40 PM

this would be a targeted approach but with the preworkout carbs moved to the night before rather than directly before the workout. other than that i usually just eat glucose type starches preworkout. i just figured this way i could eliminate some liver glycogen while maintaining a higher level of muscle glycogen as the amount on a tkd seem limited and liver glycogen replenishment at times may be useful for anti catabolic purposes which id rather allocate to sleeping hours

3327924660b1e2f8f8fc4ca27fedf2b2

(2919)

on April 26, 2012
at 08:47 AM

Cycling through ketosis and glycolysis is kind of silly, especially considering the OP wanted to be in ketosis. Ketosis is also not catabolic by nature. If anything, glycolysis is more catabolic than ketone/FA metabolism.

0
1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on April 26, 2012
at 06:20 AM

If you go mostly zero carb all day and then eat carbs one meal at night. There is a chance of going into ketosis.

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