7

votes

Economic Collapse.. Paleo?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created June 06, 2011 at 3:49 PM

I know the Paleo people are intelligent.. I know the Paleo society is filled with people who think for themselves and have the knowledge to understand the world around us. My question is.. do you think the U.S. economy is heading for a total collapse?

If this happens it will be survival of the fittest.. you know?

Let me know where you think the U.S. is going!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 10, 2011
at 05:38 PM

Bottom line....FREE MEN OWN GUNS. SLAVES DO NOT.

Medium avatar

(207)

on June 09, 2011
at 10:58 PM

North Korea has been operating according to a very different philosophy (Juche) since probably the 50s, it is mostly nationalist and militarist. Cuba made enormous progress in its quality of life after the revolution, but with the constant attacks on it by the US (both military and economic) it consolidated into an authoritarian state. However, compare it to, say, Haiti, and then we can talk about what systems have been "discredited."

7fe08b47d7d073a906802a4170ae24bf

(350)

on June 09, 2011
at 08:15 PM

OMG, most ridiculous post I've ever read. Heads up Steve, communism has been been completely discredited and died a long time ago - with the exception of North Korea and Cuba (which is moving away from it).

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on June 09, 2011
at 05:42 PM

@Steve, I'm sure paleo human groups had a variety of organizational systems, of which communism was just one out of many. As L. Peltier points out, persons were free to "walk their own path," but we don't know how much coercion and enslavement existed in the paleolithic era.

9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

(15833)

on June 09, 2011
at 04:42 PM

I do agree that capitalism is not necessarily the best moral system. I also agree that the divide between rich and poor is enormous. However, the impoverished in the US live way better than the impoverished in any other country. The US immigration lottery gets 1000 applicants for every 1 that is accepted. This is not true of most other countries, because people would rather live and work here. Not to say that the country is perfect, but it's pretty good.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 09, 2011
at 04:40 PM

The USA is tied to the fate of the UN and the IMF. Ancestrally, decisions were made in groups but every person was free to walk their own path. Its not Communism. Its freedom.

9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

(15833)

on June 09, 2011
at 04:40 PM

I would enjoy having this discussion, but not sure if this is the best place for it (500 chars at a time). Read comments from Warren Buffett to hear favorable opinions on the US economy vs. global economies. The US still leads the world in innovation and a legal / cultural environment that promotes wealth creation. The only purpose of European economies is to feed their pension systems and they are in trouble. Emerging economies in India and China will be powerful but still depend on the US.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 09, 2011
at 04:37 PM

"Glock 21 FTW. 9mm rounds are plentiful. – ricechek 2 days ago" Not sure what this is implying however the G21 is a .45acp not a 9mm. I personally carry both the G21 and G29 in 10mm. I do go into "bear country" quite a bit. However, most people are "ballistic ignorant". The #1 man-stopper is the .357 mag in 125gr JHP n after that the .45acp. n there really is no bad .45 cap. If you MUST carry a 9mm (n I hope you don't), load it with Cor Bon +P+. The life you save will be your own.

5b69a02dadcae753771921d913909215

(1457)

on June 09, 2011
at 04:35 PM

Condoms! I knew my apocolypse senario plan was missing something! Got it now... guns, ammo, and condoms.

9f933fedd259b97a5369c3ee5dae3151

(341)

on June 09, 2011
at 03:45 PM

This just sounded all sorts of wrong to me. If capitalism is the Great Way, why are we here in the first place? What wealth gain has happened to allow the divide between rich and poor to widen? Do you know exactly who is controlling the US's money? I'd look into who controls the Federal Reserve. And, how can you expect improvement (in such a short amount of time!) when the same people/systems who got us into this mess are still being trusted to get us out? We are in the depths of late-stage capitalism now, and it is a scary place.

C2502365891cbcc8af2d1cf1d7b0e9fc

(2437)

on June 09, 2011
at 05:47 AM

The US economy is 50 trillion in the hock, and increasing by 5 every year. Interest payments are taking up 40% of income. How is that strong?

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 09, 2011
at 05:26 AM

Ron yes I do play basketball or the Chicago Bulls team

Medium avatar

(207)

on June 08, 2011
at 09:41 PM

It's all part of the strategy brought to us by that classical Keynesian, Ronald Reagan. Run up the deficit with military spending, then use that as an excuse to cut social programs and attack labor.

Medium avatar

(207)

on June 08, 2011
at 09:38 PM

Well put. Other commenters are right to point out that standard of living is unlikely to decline in the US--I would say because the strong infrastructure contributes so much to a favorable business climate. But at a certain point capital will have to recognize that it won't be able to conduct business without meeting labor's demands--and it when it can manage to pay, we'll have an interesting scenario on our hands.

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 08, 2011
at 04:20 AM

You can take out a lot of cows with a rocket launcher...

E7be2ce38158357f5dacae07b43d1b29

on June 08, 2011
at 04:05 AM

I can make a $1 bottle of shampoo last for a very, very long time thanks to stuff my parents and others taught me. I have the house and land, and working towards food/health security. Not much else matters in the big picture.

E7be2ce38158357f5dacae07b43d1b29

on June 08, 2011
at 04:03 AM

OK, you say that you think the US economy will improve over the next 5 years. Do you have a mechanism in mind for how this will happen?

Medium avatar

(2169)

on June 08, 2011
at 01:37 AM

@ Scott, yeah I know. it would suck really bad. and be violent and dirty and probably miserable. Maybe I was just born in the wrong century/era...lol

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 10:46 PM

I'm not a gun guy at all, but I do get the connection. It's interesting to me that 'paleo' can allow such different mindsets to intersect!

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 08:09 PM

I agree. I don't think it'll be a situation where having lots of shiny guns and a bug-out bag will be much help. Instead it'll be a steady decline: lose the job, lose the house, family can't help because they're suffering too, live in a car and spend all day in the food lines, trying to keep the family together. It won't be nearly as glamorous as the survivalists imagine. And I'm not dissing them here at all - I totally get the allure. I just don't think it'll actually work out that way at 'the end'.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 07, 2011
at 07:47 PM

Actually, I am too!

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 07:47 PM

I can one-up you: my mother-in-law is visiting next week...

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on June 07, 2011
at 07:20 PM

I'm laughing...

4e813fcf7266312684862b945c1c3281

(462)

on June 07, 2011
at 05:07 PM

I roll with a .40, but the one time in my professional career I had to discharge my weapon I shot through my 13+1 so quick I wish I had a higher capacity pistol. For range shooting and home defense I think the 9 is a great gun. If you like shit that goes boom, or want more stopping power go with a 40 or 10mm

C61399790c6531a0af344ab0c40048f1

on June 07, 2011
at 04:40 PM

I am amazed at the responses to this question. What is it with Americans and guns? And you wonder why you have such a high murder rate. I can't believe so many paleo adherents also seem to conspiracy theorists and doom sayers. I thought paleo people were MORE rational than the general populace not less. I'm with you Yoannah - thought this question was irrelevant. Read the Rational Optimist by Matt Ridley - he gets plenty of detail wrong but his overall principle - especially long-term is spot on.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 07, 2011
at 03:43 PM

For sure, I'll keep that little fantasy in mind. Economic collapse- how about Peak oil and no water. That'll keep you up nights.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 07, 2011
at 02:38 PM

Certain aspects of Paleo will be more than useful. If you have learned to live off the land in all 4 seasons. Its not about "re-enactment" so much as, truly BEING Human.

64242a1130eb51f4852f78beed38b3d5

(1343)

on June 07, 2011
at 12:29 PM

You really don't want to go through this.

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 05:37 AM

You're absolutely right Yoannah - though the variety of responses is quite interesting. It's fascinating to see the different places and assumptions people are coming from!

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 05:29 AM

just have to imagine that field of happy cows, munching contentedly on sweet grass and dandelion, beez buzzing, trees swaying... better now?

44348571d9bc70c02ac2975cc500f154

(5853)

on June 07, 2011
at 04:56 AM

I dont see the point of hand guns, but i am from different culture, i would like to own a hunting rifle of some sort, to get after those deers and shotgun for ducks ;)

127116e41acceee9f2f000076f8b788d

(477)

on June 07, 2011
at 04:36 AM

China's economy is on tract to eclipse the shrinking US economy within the decade...

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 07, 2011
at 03:05 AM

hahaha a rocket launcher... well if it does happen and some people are forced to live in the wilderness to stay away from dangerous cities.. at least the paleo people will have the right mind set.

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 07, 2011
at 02:55 AM

hell yeah Geoff! hahah

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on June 07, 2011
at 01:58 AM

RE: closing this question, sometimes the users of this site take a question and run with it. Currently, this question has +5 votes, over 300 pageviews, 15 posted answers, no flags and no votes to close. With such a positive response from the community, I'm not inclined to close it at this time.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on June 07, 2011
at 01:33 AM

Yay Bobby McFerrin!

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 12:12 AM

I've been thinking of Uruguay, Paraguay and Argentina as options for a while.

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 12:07 AM

Yeah there is that. And since there will be warmer, wetter weather coming in from the ocean it might deliver water further East than it does now, and not get stripped out by the Cascades.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on June 07, 2011
at 12:01 AM

You should pick this one up. Its legal in the US. 40mm Austrian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYVqkYMJ7nc

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on June 06, 2011
at 10:11 PM

Agreed, Leah. If you don't have the ammo, the gun is only an expensive rock to throw, or a club lol

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on June 06, 2011
at 09:32 PM

I agree, "thorns and weeds grow wherever an army goes and lean years follow a great war." - Lao Tzu

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on June 06, 2011
at 09:31 PM

I agree, "thorns and weeds grow where ever an army goes and lean years follow a great war." - Lao Tzu

B1859f696e88d25460a6b8a333412ea3

(837)

on June 06, 2011
at 09:03 PM

The problem with the Northwest is the cascadian subduction zone - it's 'due', and is part of the ring of fire. . . http://www.amazon.com/Cascadias-Fault-Earthquake-Tsunami-Devastate/dp/1582436436/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307394103&sr=1-1 Maybe further inland would be safer.

2ab6415f5f20b8fe1d34a94c7be85e6a

on June 06, 2011
at 08:58 PM

Are you the professional basketball player? sorry its off topic.

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4111)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:43 PM

Having many guns is good, but having fewer guns and a lifetime supply of ammo is even better...at least according to the gun freaks I know :)

6fa48935d439390e223b9a053a62c981

(1676)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:40 PM

Public companies must grow because investors demand a return on their investment in the company, be it common stock or some other form of investment. The return generally takes the form of a dividend or capital appreciation (or a combination). These are driven by growth of the company.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:37 PM

Unfortunately the US working class often gets diverted into quasi-fascist nativist movements and/or works in the service industries that are not organized (think, fast food). What happened in Wisconsin was refreshing. Remains to be seen how much longer workers in China are going to put up with the neo-liberal scheme.

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:36 PM

Awesome post.. great info! Thanks!

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:34 PM

Part of me thinks it will be awesome living in the wild! Haha but yeah if it really did collapse it would be really dangerous. A lot of Americans have lost morals and values.. too many video games and movies IMHO. People would become pretty violent if they were getting hungry.

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:32 PM

You should stockpile some weapons.. At least have a gun! Good info though!

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:28 PM

Haha that's whats up! Alright I am definitely going to look into the glock 21. Learn something new everyday.. love it, thanks dude!

Efc949694a31043bfce9ec86e8235cd7

(970)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:26 PM

Glock 21 FTW. 9mm rounds are plentiful.

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:16 PM

I love the foxfire books - especially the one about making banjos :-)

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4111)

on June 06, 2011
at 07:08 PM

because one day you might need to dress a hog LOL

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4111)

on June 06, 2011
at 07:07 PM

http://www.amazon.com/Foxfire-Book-Dressing-Building-Moonshining/dp/0385073534/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307387201&sr=1-1 And this book not only is a good read, but a good "investment" :)

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on June 06, 2011
at 07:07 PM

My buddy's an undercover cop in the drug / gang unit. He told me that they switched away from using 9mm as their standard issue weapon after needed to put 5+ rounds in some people to "stop" them. Now their standard issue is .45. That problem is fixed.

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:50 PM

I'm guessing .45?

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:49 PM

What do you think .40 or 9mm

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:29 PM

Glock 21 my man. Stopping power.

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:14 PM

wow.. I will definitely migrate to Uruguay if I have to!

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:14 PM

hahaha see you there!

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:14 PM

I'm not really worried about it.. I just want to get ready if it's going to happen! Stockpile some food.. collect some bad ass weapons etc. etc.

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:13 PM

hahaha dude.. I just turned 21 so I am going to buy a gun as soon as I have the money. Maybe a glock 23 (sexy gun), what do you think?

Medium avatar

(5639)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:04 PM

worrying can be productive in the right situation, i.e. before a test for which you didn't study.

Medium avatar

(5639)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:03 PM

Does this kind of stuff keep you up at night? I used to roll around in bed, worrying about terrorists, the state of education in this country and ultimately where it's effects would lead us (to being politically/economically/militarily dominated by China), the idea that our money system is based on debt and is shakier than the deutschemark in 1922... But then I embraced letting go, taking it as it comes, mindfulness and living in the moment. I've never felt better in my entire life. I still worry, but I obliterate those thoughts when they come to me. I'm no Bobby McFerrin...

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21 Answers

8
Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on June 06, 2011
at 03:57 PM

Yes get ready. I have a stock pile of steel headed spears that I've been forging. Plus I've been sprinting for practice. I will see you on the plains Derrick.

-Gronk.

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:14 PM

hahaha see you there!

6
Ac9425a387b78cb37a01972fe848bddb

(655)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:04 PM

Uruguay has a 3:1 cow ration to the population (3 1/2 Million people/ over 10 Million cows, I'm heading over there! =D

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:14 PM

wow.. I will definitely migrate to Uruguay if I have to!

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 12:12 AM

I've been thinking of Uruguay, Paraguay and Argentina as options for a while.

5
A6b2325aefabe3e40c89646e40223f6f

on June 07, 2011
at 03:38 AM

Major economic problems? Yes. Post-apocalyptic hellscape? No.

The US will almost certainly experience a government debt crisis within the next five years, leading to a crash either in Treasuries, the dollar, or (probably) both. That will cause a serious recession, much higher prices, or (probably) both.

That sounds pretty bad on the surface -- but while it won't exactly be fun, but it won't be a "collapse" or Armageddon either. Currency and bond market crashes happen, and always have happened throughout history (even here), and life goes on.

The standard of living in the US been artificially high for many years because, as a nation on the whole, we've been spending more than we earn for a while now. Once we get back to living within our means the aggregate standard of living will decline. That's simple math.

But our standard of living will still be vastly higher here in the US than in most of the world, and better than at any time in history (the past decade notwithstanding). And anyway, productivity improvements and true, sustainable economic growth will slowly raise it up again over time.

So there are still some big imbalances to be worked out and there is some pain to come, but we are a long, long way away from "survival of the fittest."

So there's no need to stock up on solid gold ammo and salt pork for the impending zombie apocalypse. That said, I do think it's crucially important to pay attention to this stuff from the standpoint of your investments, as these issues will have a giant impact on financial markets over the coming decade.

3
A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

on June 07, 2011
at 01:35 AM

I thought the topic will be closed as totally irrelevant... but what I see instead is a free ride for fans of apocalyptic movies... the silly little troubles that America is going through now? NOTHING compared to what most of the world is dealing with on a daily basis for ages. We still are privileged, generally not poor and not starving. And the crazy fascination with guns and ammo, which is very symbolic for America in my mind, explains why European forensic specialists come here to learn about gun wounds. I think all this panic is raised only by people who live already pretty well, not noticing that in their own cities there are thousands of people living on the edge of poverty, children with no care, no nutrition and guns introduced too early on. Seriously, turning to guns obviously doesn't work.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on June 07, 2011
at 01:58 AM

RE: closing this question, sometimes the users of this site take a question and run with it. Currently, this question has +5 votes, over 300 pageviews, 15 posted answers, no flags and no votes to close. With such a positive response from the community, I'm not inclined to close it at this time.

C61399790c6531a0af344ab0c40048f1

on June 07, 2011
at 04:40 PM

I am amazed at the responses to this question. What is it with Americans and guns? And you wonder why you have such a high murder rate. I can't believe so many paleo adherents also seem to conspiracy theorists and doom sayers. I thought paleo people were MORE rational than the general populace not less. I'm with you Yoannah - thought this question was irrelevant. Read the Rational Optimist by Matt Ridley - he gets plenty of detail wrong but his overall principle - especially long-term is spot on.

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 05:37 AM

You're absolutely right Yoannah - though the variety of responses is quite interesting. It's fascinating to see the different places and assumptions people are coming from!

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 10:46 PM

I'm not a gun guy at all, but I do get the connection. It's interesting to me that 'paleo' can allow such different mindsets to intersect!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 10, 2011
at 05:38 PM

Bottom line....FREE MEN OWN GUNS. SLAVES DO NOT.

3
D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

on June 06, 2011
at 06:39 PM

Buy bullets and move away from the city pronto! And subscribe to this blog http://evryinternational.com/

Really, in all seriousness, I don't know where the US is going and no one else probably does either with very much accuracy. I personally know the guy who writes the blog above and he is without a doubt one of the most knowledgeable people when it comes to the GLOBAL economy outlook. The US debt situation is a very REAL problem, they reached the debt ceiling again two weeks ago, and it won't be long before Congress forces everyone to back the government by requiring a certain percentage investment of your very own 401k to be in government bonds (which are worthless because they will keep raising the debt ceiling). The government has $15.5 trillion in admitted debts but those debts, when calculated under Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP), are over $70 trillion. That is about $200K per person.

All that being said above, I am an optimist and don't worry about that stuff; I'm not getting a second passport and I don't have enough money to worry about moving it off-shore. However, I definitely read that blog above and think about how I can fit some aspects of preparedness into my life without being obsessive. But I am also lucky enough to have a very large pond stocked with fish, room to garden, not dependent on a municipal water source and have a back-up natural gas generator.

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4111)

on June 06, 2011
at 07:08 PM

because one day you might need to dress a hog LOL

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:16 PM

I love the foxfire books - especially the one about making banjos :-)

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:36 PM

Awesome post.. great info! Thanks!

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4111)

on June 06, 2011
at 07:07 PM

http://www.amazon.com/Foxfire-Book-Dressing-Building-Moonshining/dp/0385073534/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307387201&sr=1-1 And this book not only is a good read, but a good "investment" :)

3
776bb678d88f7194b0fa0e5146df14f0

on June 06, 2011
at 05:30 PM

I think, yes, eventually. Not for awhile though. I focus my efforts right now on being as healthy and fit as possible, learning skills that would be useful in the case of some kind of collapse (permaculture gardening, animal husbandry, cooking and sewing - basically everything our grandparents knew how to do) and saving money to eventually buy a house and land that will provide for 90-99% of what I need to live.

I try to live my life as simply as possible by walking or biking most places and going without things like processed food or shampoo, both to save money and to acclimate myself if those things become unavailable. I'm not really into the whole stockpiling weaponry aspect... I'll leave that to the menfolk for now.

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:32 PM

You should stockpile some weapons.. At least have a gun! Good info though!

E7be2ce38158357f5dacae07b43d1b29

on June 08, 2011
at 04:05 AM

I can make a $1 bottle of shampoo last for a very, very long time thanks to stuff my parents and others taught me. I have the house and land, and working towards food/health security. Not much else matters in the big picture.

3
C8b4068fa3bb4055c91904fec4b920e7

on June 06, 2011
at 04:26 PM

It's a serious question.

The US is a leading power in the global capitalist system.

It is increasingly stuggling to maintain its domination in the imperialist competition and relies heavily on military power, debt, speculation and the like as it is seriously weak in the fundamental productive sector which generates mass unemployment.

Capitalism everywhere is in crisis, a worsening crisis which goes back almost 40 years when the post war boom petered out.

We are at a historic crossroads, the social crisis caused by the attempt to keep profit rates healthy could push the working class to attempt to replace capitalism, imperialist war could escalate to world war and then there's the environmental question.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:37 PM

Unfortunately the US working class often gets diverted into quasi-fascist nativist movements and/or works in the service industries that are not organized (think, fast food). What happened in Wisconsin was refreshing. Remains to be seen how much longer workers in China are going to put up with the neo-liberal scheme.

Medium avatar

(207)

on June 08, 2011
at 09:38 PM

Well put. Other commenters are right to point out that standard of living is unlikely to decline in the US--I would say because the strong infrastructure contributes so much to a favorable business climate. But at a certain point capital will have to recognize that it won't be able to conduct business without meeting labor's demands--and it when it can manage to pay, we'll have an interesting scenario on our hands.

3
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:17 PM

Better question, is the world headed for economic collapse? The U.S. goes, so does the rest of the world. Anyway, yes, we keep forging ahead in our various military adventures something's got to give. I don't care if you're an anti-militarist like me, or a "Hawk". I just don't see how this kind of expenditure is sustainable.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on June 06, 2011
at 09:31 PM

I agree, "thorns and weeds grow where ever an army goes and lean years follow a great war." - Lao Tzu

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 08:09 PM

I agree. I don't think it'll be a situation where having lots of shiny guns and a bug-out bag will be much help. Instead it'll be a steady decline: lose the job, lose the house, family can't help because they're suffering too, live in a car and spend all day in the food lines, trying to keep the family together. It won't be nearly as glamorous as the survivalists imagine. And I'm not dissing them here at all - I totally get the allure. I just don't think it'll actually work out that way at 'the end'.

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on June 06, 2011
at 09:32 PM

I agree, "thorns and weeds grow wherever an army goes and lean years follow a great war." - Lao Tzu

Medium avatar

(207)

on June 08, 2011
at 09:41 PM

It's all part of the strategy brought to us by that classical Keynesian, Ronald Reagan. Run up the deficit with military spending, then use that as an excuse to cut social programs and attack labor.

3
4e813fcf7266312684862b945c1c3281

(462)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:07 PM

All of those people who make fun of me for having 47 guns (yes I count them, as I oil them down while nude) and stockpiling ammo will starve while I eat anything .000 buck will take down!

Efc949694a31043bfce9ec86e8235cd7

(970)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:26 PM

Glock 21 FTW. 9mm rounds are plentiful.

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 07, 2011
at 02:55 AM

hell yeah Geoff! hahah

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:49 PM

What do you think .40 or 9mm

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on June 06, 2011
at 10:11 PM

Agreed, Leah. If you don't have the ammo, the gun is only an expensive rock to throw, or a club lol

44348571d9bc70c02ac2975cc500f154

(5853)

on June 07, 2011
at 04:56 AM

I dont see the point of hand guns, but i am from different culture, i would like to own a hunting rifle of some sort, to get after those deers and shotgun for ducks ;)

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:13 PM

hahaha dude.. I just turned 21 so I am going to buy a gun as soon as I have the money. Maybe a glock 23 (sexy gun), what do you think?

B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on June 07, 2011
at 12:01 AM

You should pick this one up. Its legal in the US. 40mm Austrian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYVqkYMJ7nc

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:29 PM

Glock 21 my man. Stopping power.

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 04:50 PM

I'm guessing .45?

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4111)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:43 PM

Having many guns is good, but having fewer guns and a lifetime supply of ammo is even better...at least according to the gun freaks I know :)

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:28 PM

Haha that's whats up! Alright I am definitely going to look into the glock 21. Learn something new everyday.. love it, thanks dude!

4e813fcf7266312684862b945c1c3281

(462)

on June 07, 2011
at 05:07 PM

I roll with a .40, but the one time in my professional career I had to discharge my weapon I shot through my 13+1 so quick I wish I had a higher capacity pistol. For range shooting and home defense I think the 9 is a great gun. If you like shit that goes boom, or want more stopping power go with a 40 or 10mm

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on June 06, 2011
at 07:07 PM

My buddy's an undercover cop in the drug / gang unit. He told me that they switched away from using 9mm as their standard issue weapon after needed to put 5+ rounds in some people to "stop" them. Now their standard issue is .45. That problem is fixed.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 09, 2011
at 04:37 PM

"Glock 21 FTW. 9mm rounds are plentiful. – ricechek 2 days ago" Not sure what this is implying however the G21 is a .45acp not a 9mm. I personally carry both the G21 and G29 in 10mm. I do go into "bear country" quite a bit. However, most people are "ballistic ignorant". The #1 man-stopper is the .357 mag in 125gr JHP n after that the .45acp. n there really is no bad .45 cap. If you MUST carry a 9mm (n I hope you don't), load it with Cor Bon +P+. The life you save will be your own.

2
C61399790c6531a0af344ab0c40048f1

on June 07, 2011
at 04:50 PM

I live in a country which used to be the dominant global power. It lost its Empire and guess what? It wasn't the end of the world. In fact for many if not all of the countries it used to have power over life got infinitely better (including America lol). It got better here too for the majority of inhabitants. So maybe the US losing some of its global power might do a great many countries a favour. Just saying :)

2
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 07, 2011
at 02:07 AM

This question and answers are messing with my cortisol levels;)

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 07:47 PM

I can one-up you: my mother-in-law is visiting next week...

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 05:29 AM

just have to imagine that field of happy cows, munching contentedly on sweet grass and dandelion, beez buzzing, trees swaying... better now?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 07, 2011
at 03:43 PM

For sure, I'll keep that little fantasy in mind. Economic collapse- how about Peak oil and no water. That'll keep you up nights.

2
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:42 PM

You need to familiarize yourself with the "Rothschilds timeline", the Georgia Guidestones, and UN Agenda 21. Then you will know EXACTLY what is going on and why. N yes, stockpile guns, ammo, food, water, medical supplies, toiletries, etc. Learn how to hunt and forage in more than your grocery store. The foolish will laugh, the wise will understand.

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on June 07, 2011
at 07:20 PM

I'm laughing...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 07, 2011
at 07:47 PM

Actually, I am too!

2
Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:36 PM

I've become more cynical about the long-term prospects. Our world finances are less and less run with the interests of "the people" mind. The disparity between rich and everybody else is getting astronomically huge and shows no sign of shifting. Agriculture has maxed out to the very edges of even the mostly unlikely terrain - and our taxes are helping fund that expansion even as our own people are used as dumping ground for the surplus (High Fructose Corn Syrup, anyone?). Even if 'we' can address global warming aggressively will China and India follow suit? I really doubt it.

But I'm not a survivalist either - I don't see everything going up in flames and suddenly it's all about building shelter in the forest and catching fish with our hands. Instead I see it as a slipping and sliding - slow OR fast - into the equivalent of the Depression or a third world country. With inevitable ups and down along the way.

What I think about is moving Somewhere Else, or at least buying the property sooner than later and at least using it as a vacation spot. Somewhere that, in fifty or a hundred hears has a chance of surviving significant global warming, and that my daughter can bring her own family if things elsewhere get Bad. Big enough to pasture some animals but rocky enough that clearcutting is not a big risk (I doubt our National Forests and Parks will not hold out against corporate interests forever).

I've looked into this just a little, but have yet to find some solid predictions about weather patterns in a hundred years. But I can imagine a few criteria: Near mountains that even then will keep snow fields most of the year. It could be high and marginal now but as the timberline rises (it already is rising) it might become more appropriate for keeping animals and having gardens. Away from excessive slopes since rains - especially in the West - probably will be torrential. And so on. I sometimes think that Pacific Northwest might be about right, at least in the US. Perhaps British Columbia....

It's all wild hair-brained thinking, but I would like to think about this stuff with other like-minded people...

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 07, 2011
at 12:07 AM

Yeah there is that. And since there will be warmer, wetter weather coming in from the ocean it might deliver water further East than it does now, and not get stripped out by the Cascades.

B1859f696e88d25460a6b8a333412ea3

(837)

on June 06, 2011
at 09:03 PM

The problem with the Northwest is the cascadian subduction zone - it's 'due', and is part of the ring of fire. . . http://www.amazon.com/Cascadias-Fault-Earthquake-Tsunami-Devastate/dp/1582436436/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307394103&sr=1-1 Maybe further inland would be safer.

2
Medium avatar

on June 06, 2011
at 06:36 PM

I think one big problem with the capitalist mindset, or at least the mindset of the companies in the US, is that it is necessary to make MORE money than you did last year. The same amount is not satisfactory. Why not? I don't understand the need to constantly grow. If your business is sustainable, you can pay your employees fairly, keep your investments in the black and your customers happy, what is the need to get bigger and bigger?

That being said, in some ways I welcome the economic "apocalypse," because I enjoy being self sufficient, active, and outdoors. I also think we are more engaged and happy as humans when we are part of a tribe. Although I would desperately miss dark chocolate, BBQ sauce, the internet and condoms. Obviously I have my priorities straight. Lol.

6fa48935d439390e223b9a053a62c981

(1676)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:40 PM

Public companies must grow because investors demand a return on their investment in the company, be it common stock or some other form of investment. The return generally takes the form of a dividend or capital appreciation (or a combination). These are driven by growth of the company.

Medium avatar

(2169)

on June 08, 2011
at 01:37 AM

@ Scott, yeah I know. it would suck really bad. and be violent and dirty and probably miserable. Maybe I was just born in the wrong century/era...lol

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 06, 2011
at 08:34 PM

Part of me thinks it will be awesome living in the wild! Haha but yeah if it really did collapse it would be really dangerous. A lot of Americans have lost morals and values.. too many video games and movies IMHO. People would become pretty violent if they were getting hungry.

64242a1130eb51f4852f78beed38b3d5

(1343)

on June 07, 2011
at 12:29 PM

You really don't want to go through this.

5b69a02dadcae753771921d913909215

(1457)

on June 09, 2011
at 04:35 PM

Condoms! I knew my apocolypse senario plan was missing something! Got it now... guns, ammo, and condoms.

2
9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

on June 06, 2011
at 04:47 PM

There is economic distress in the US, but it is much worse in many other parts of the world. The US still has one of the strongest if not the strongest economy in the world. Over the next 5 years I expect the US economy to get stronger in relation to other economies since capitalism and wealth creation is the best long-term economic plan and the US has it in spades.

The US and global economies have been through worse crises before, for example in the 1930's. There are no reports of unemployment at 50% and soup lines to hand out food to the starving as occurred after the Great Depression. More like people are struggling to pay for their cars and TV's.

It might be a long while (5-10 years) before we get back to the level of prosperity that most people of this generation enjoyed for most/all of their lives, but I don't think it's quite time to build that bug-out shelter just yet.

E7be2ce38158357f5dacae07b43d1b29

on June 08, 2011
at 04:03 AM

OK, you say that you think the US economy will improve over the next 5 years. Do you have a mechanism in mind for how this will happen?

127116e41acceee9f2f000076f8b788d

(477)

on June 07, 2011
at 04:36 AM

China's economy is on tract to eclipse the shrinking US economy within the decade...

9f933fedd259b97a5369c3ee5dae3151

(341)

on June 09, 2011
at 03:45 PM

This just sounded all sorts of wrong to me. If capitalism is the Great Way, why are we here in the first place? What wealth gain has happened to allow the divide between rich and poor to widen? Do you know exactly who is controlling the US's money? I'd look into who controls the Federal Reserve. And, how can you expect improvement (in such a short amount of time!) when the same people/systems who got us into this mess are still being trusted to get us out? We are in the depths of late-stage capitalism now, and it is a scary place.

9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

(15833)

on June 09, 2011
at 04:42 PM

I do agree that capitalism is not necessarily the best moral system. I also agree that the divide between rich and poor is enormous. However, the impoverished in the US live way better than the impoverished in any other country. The US immigration lottery gets 1000 applicants for every 1 that is accepted. This is not true of most other countries, because people would rather live and work here. Not to say that the country is perfect, but it's pretty good.

9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

(15833)

on June 09, 2011
at 04:40 PM

I would enjoy having this discussion, but not sure if this is the best place for it (500 chars at a time). Read comments from Warren Buffett to hear favorable opinions on the US economy vs. global economies. The US still leads the world in innovation and a legal / cultural environment that promotes wealth creation. The only purpose of European economies is to feed their pension systems and they are in trouble. Emerging economies in India and China will be powerful but still depend on the US.

C2502365891cbcc8af2d1cf1d7b0e9fc

(2437)

on June 09, 2011
at 05:47 AM

The US economy is 50 trillion in the hock, and increasing by 5 every year. Interest payments are taking up 40% of income. How is that strong?

1
C8b4068fa3bb4055c91904fec4b920e7

on June 09, 2011
at 04:31 PM

Interestingly, I think communism is paleo.

Our ancestors, according to my reading lived in primative communism, decisions were taken in group form and there was no ruling elite.

Only later as productivity progressed did we become divided into classes, religion , priests nobles kings etc.

Capitalism is the last form of class society.

Marx wrote that capitalism's inner workings would lead to socialism or common ruin....I guess that WW3 would qualify as the latter.

Reminds me a little of the best cabin on the Titanic.

The USA ( and I don't believe it is doing so well) remains tied to the fate of the global economy.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on June 09, 2011
at 05:42 PM

@Steve, I'm sure paleo human groups had a variety of organizational systems, of which communism was just one out of many. As L. Peltier points out, persons were free to "walk their own path," but we don't know how much coercion and enslavement existed in the paleolithic era.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 09, 2011
at 04:40 PM

The USA is tied to the fate of the UN and the IMF. Ancestrally, decisions were made in groups but every person was free to walk their own path. Its not Communism. Its freedom.

7fe08b47d7d073a906802a4170ae24bf

(350)

on June 09, 2011
at 08:15 PM

OMG, most ridiculous post I've ever read. Heads up Steve, communism has been been completely discredited and died a long time ago - with the exception of North Korea and Cuba (which is moving away from it).

Medium avatar

(207)

on June 09, 2011
at 10:58 PM

North Korea has been operating according to a very different philosophy (Juche) since probably the 50s, it is mostly nationalist and militarist. Cuba made enormous progress in its quality of life after the revolution, but with the constant attacks on it by the US (both military and economic) it consolidated into an authoritarian state. However, compare it to, say, Haiti, and then we can talk about what systems have been "discredited."

0
C8b4068fa3bb4055c91904fec4b920e7

on June 09, 2011
at 02:32 PM

Just looked through again.

Some posts seem to see the USA as doing well enough but not the rest of the world.

I think this is blinkered, and is also a result of the past.

Capitalism is based on growth.

No matter how much it creates, how well off the citizens, capital must expand.

The theories of capitalist crisis regard this expansion as finite, the process has limits and capitalism is a moment in history rather than eternal.

The system does not simply stop, it is put down by its victims, the proletariat. They are only able to construct a new system by erradicating capitalism everywhere, and capitalism cannot afford to lose territory to communist revolution.

Part of the misconception arose with Stalinist "Socialism in one country'' but the real communist theory was always that no matter the starting point, this opened a global class struggle which could only end in total victory or defeat, no co-existance of any length was possible.

Obviously this is a quick sketch and there are a number of concepts which contradict conventional thinking, but I think it covers why it is necessary to consider capitalism in its totality when considering the fate of its constituent parts.

I realise this is difficult and few will be inclined to embrace it, but the crisis is permanent , there is no way out and that will possibly lead to widescale generalisation of the revolutionary idea, but capitalism is capable of another trajectory, imperialist war.

0
Medium avatar

on June 08, 2011
at 09:35 PM

A smart woman once posed a similar question:

What does “regression into barbarism” mean to our lofty European civilization? Until now, we have all probably read and repeated these words thoughtlessly, without suspecting their fearsome seriousness. A look around us at this moment shows what the regression of bourgeois society into barbarism means. This world war is a regression into barbarism. The triumph of imperialism leads to the annihilation of civilization. At first, this happens sporadically for the duration of a modern war, but then when the period of unlimited wars begins it progresses toward its inevitable consequences.

0
Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 07, 2011
at 12:57 AM

For those of you interested in Generational and economic cycles, you might be interested in reading The Fourth Turning

This Era, they forecasted in 1997 book, begins ~2005 and will complete ~2025. Here's a summary of this Era's Wintery description.

Crisis

The Fourth Turning is a Crisis. This is an era in which America’s institutional life is destroyed and rebuilt in response to a perceived threat to the nation’s survival. Civic authority revives, cultural expression redirects towards community purpose, and people begin to locate themselves as members of a larger group. Fourth Turnings have all been new “founding moments” in America’s history, moments that redefined the national identity.[35] America’s most recent Fourth Turning began with the stock market crash of 1929 and climaxed with the end of World War II. The G.I. Generation (Hero archetype, born 1901 to 1924) came of age during this era. Their confidence, optimism, and collective outlook epitomized the mood of the era.[36] Today’s youth, the Millennial Generation (Hero archetype, born 1982 to 1995), show many traits similar to those of the G.I. youth, including rising civic engagement, improving behavior, and collective confidence.[37]

Strauss and Howe have identified 26 turnings over 7 saecula in Anglo-American history, from the year 1435 through today

I've found their description of the generations to be extremely accurate in my teaching career. It is fascinating to see how the economics of our youth carry through to the political decisions in our 40-60s.

I'm not worried, but know this weeding out of processes, institutions, and beliefs has been a long time coming. Only those institutions that WORK will survive, and that is not a bad thing! We've been using extrapolation to "value" productivity for too long and need to get back to basics.

And if you are interested in their forecasts for investments, I'd suggest reading this one: Greying of the Great Powers

Happy reading :) With inflation pressures hitting the retail sector, IMHO we've already bottomed out.

0
B22e5946e28a1845a6006737e59edfc6

(2437)

on June 06, 2011
at 11:55 PM

For all of the gun lovers on this thread check out this kid's youtube channel. Funny dude plus he shoots some awesome guns.

http://www.youtube.com/user/FPSRussia#p/u/7/N8IGDIujijQ

I also think that the US is in dire straits but I dont think it will collapse as if it does it will take down the whole world with it. The US barely exports anything, all we are is the worlds innovators. That means we need to invest in our education to keep us on the forefront. In addition we need to reestablish our manufacturing base.

-1
3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

on June 06, 2011
at 08:31 PM

I don't think there is any piont in being Paleo when it comes to weapons. Seriously, what use are spears, knives and swords? You definitely want guns. But I think you want machine guns of the AK-47 and Uzi variety and plenty of ammunition.

If the economic collapse comes, we could easily descend to the Mad Max Beyond the Thunderdome type of situation where gasoline and guns will rule everything.

What will be more useful than guns and ammo? Perhaps rocket launchers but they're less mobile and you can more easily fend off a roving band of hooligans with a single machine gun than with a battle axe.

Being Paleo will be useless when that day comes.

E4ea912bb525efc4e392821120cfb8a6

(450)

on June 07, 2011
at 03:05 AM

hahaha a rocket launcher... well if it does happen and some people are forced to live in the wilderness to stay away from dangerous cities.. at least the paleo people will have the right mind set.

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on June 08, 2011
at 04:20 AM

You can take out a lot of cows with a rocket launcher...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 07, 2011
at 02:38 PM

Certain aspects of Paleo will be more than useful. If you have learned to live off the land in all 4 seasons. Its not about "re-enactment" so much as, truly BEING Human.

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