20

votes

80%+ eat dairy, so where do you fit in the 'Paleo spectrum'?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created September 08, 2011 at 11:40 AM

Yep 80%. So are you strict paleo or sisson-esque primal? well based on a poll that I asked paleo people on google plus, twitter, robbwolf forum and MDA forum it appears that most people are walking down the more dairy tolerant path of Mark Sisson. 83 responded. 69 include Dairy in their diet.

  • Strict auto immune protocol diets garnered just 2 respondents,
  • Next the most surprising for me was only 8 out of 83 - just 10% follow the grain, dairy, legume free - 'classical' paleo protocol.
  • The biggest group 43% - no grains, no legumes but "dairy is in the mix" crowd, The middle of the bell curve is here!.
  • Next was my group, some grains (i.e rice, maybe corn) and dairy - no legumes - 28%
  • The not so strict follower with a bit of grains, dairy and legumes were about the same as the strict paleo protocol folk at the other end of the bell, at about 8%. Which is curious.
  • If you don't eat dairy, that also means you almost probably don't eat grains or legumes either. dairy is at the crux for many people it seems.
  • Three SAD people (or absolute beginners to the paleo world) were also on board with the survey.

.

My rough conclusion:

No grains, dairy, legumes are at one end the bell curve in the minority, dairy is in the middle of bell curve along with the rice every now and again crowd and those who dabble in all three G,D&L are at the other end of the bell curve.

So hack my survey* results! are they totally skewed and rubbish? or is dairy really such a big player? One thing I think about is: how pure is the dairy source for most people? is it the grassfed raw kind, or are people just making do with conventional dairy due to cost and access issues?

I predict the dairy will be the next big thing to really go under the microscope in the paleosphere, the carbs and fats have been well prodded and debated. Dairy is next for the fine tooth comb....or maybe not.

.

.

*my poll was non scientific and relied on the honesty of respondents - but hey, we are honest people in the paleo word, aren't we?

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Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 09, 2011
at 03:49 PM

ROB made a comment on another thread that when he gave up dairy, a nagging pain in his chest area (similar to what I'm feeling) went away. Several people on PH said I should try giving up dairy. It may be my next trial run. Uggh. I don't wanna do it, but I also want to feel tip top.

499f188c87c6980742b9ba98caa6f563

(683)

on November 09, 2011
at 02:58 AM

Ah, galumpki! Actually, “gałumpki” with the Polish slash-L, pronounced ga-wump-ki. My Polish mother, grandmothers, and aunts all make it and it was a part of every holiday meal. Memories!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 09, 2011
at 02:49 AM

UPDATE: As my gut health improves, I'm able to use a little whipping cream in my coffee and I'm even experimenting with kefir.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on October 15, 2011
at 12:30 AM

Yes on goat dairy, thank god for goat dairy.

3eca93d2e56dfcd768197dc5a50944f2

(11697)

on October 14, 2011
at 09:20 PM

I eat yoghurt/cheeses but ONLY from goats, ONLY lactose free, and the yoghurt has to be probiotic too. I don't do milk (although RAW goat milk might work). As you can see, even within the "dairy crowd" there's diversity. Most people that do dairy simply do random cow dairy. I don't, I eat only from goats because its casein is closer to humans' so its more tolerable, and only under certain conditions.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 14, 2011
at 08:13 PM

Thanks Travis...

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 14, 2011
at 04:35 PM

I think it's due to the proportions of insulinogenic proteins. It *really* happens with any kind of reduced-fat cheese, and less so with real cheese.

B1859f696e88d25460a6b8a333412ea3

(837)

on September 14, 2011
at 04:37 AM

I buy masa flour (Bob's Red Mill Gluten Free) and use it with eggs, coconut flour & spicy ground beef to make a 'tamale'"impossible" pie that's very yummy and quick.

072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on September 10, 2011
at 05:04 PM

I can dig that. I think you've got a good approach, but damn that's a lot of cheese. Per my post below, dairy doesn't do it for me. I wish it did, to tell the truth. A half pound of cheese would cause my gut to rupture.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 10, 2011
at 04:04 AM

Hey Travis. Why do you think cheese triggers reactive hypoglycemia for you? I mean..what is science behind? I gave up alcohol for example years ago because I've always been hypoglycemic. I would have a blood sugar crash the next day after drinking so I have not drank for 9 years. I love cheese. Interested to know and thank you for your commentary.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 10, 2011
at 01:36 AM

I used to make my own: Chickpeas, garlic, lemon juice, cumin, tahini (almond butter). Put it in blender and voila!

F5a8a14fc6a4d33c2563d0dd3066698a

(714)

on September 09, 2011
at 12:35 PM

Heh, Tom. The last sentence was sort of meant to be funnily ironic. As in "Despite all that, I am still considering chucking dairy." I will note, though, I am only considering it. And if I ever pull that trigger, it won't be thorough. There will always be room in my life for cream in coffee, and a little gorgonzola now and again. But I should probably cut out those days where I eat a half-pound of cheese with that soppressatta.

8c5533ffe71bd4262fedc7e898ead1ba

(1724)

on September 09, 2011
at 07:25 AM

If they are not organic, they are definitely GMO. (This is true in the US for corn, soybeans, canola, cottonseed and anything listed as simply "sugar"). If it is certified organic, then they cannot *intentionally* include GMO products.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 09, 2011
at 04:16 AM

Rose and Aili. I can so relate with this...it starts a binge for me or is a tool I use at the end of a binge to go strict again. I have finally decreased my dairy in the last 30 days at an attempt to cut it all the way. I failed at that but I definitely notice digestion, cravings are better. At least I'm not melting the cheese on a plate and eating anymore!

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 09, 2011
at 04:12 AM

cool poll FRM. i agree. I think dairy will come under more scrutiny.

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on September 09, 2011
at 03:09 AM

It was Bob's Red Mill- I know it sorghum also; can't remember what else :/ It was good though- almost worth it!

072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on September 09, 2011
at 02:29 AM

You last sentence doesn't quite line up with the rest of your post, which I totally agree with. I would say that if you are considering dumping dairy, then you for some reason have determined that it doesn't work for you. Yeah. If my 85 year old grandma makes me brownies, I will eat them and love them.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on September 09, 2011
at 01:11 AM

Damm seductive dairy.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on September 08, 2011
at 09:27 PM

Sure they might....for instance I eat butter for cooking, goat cheese for salads, and heavy cream for coffee. I would however, go as far as to say that I don't have more than 1-2oz a day of the stuff all totaled up.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 09:04 PM

yeah, I am beginning to wish I had asked a more specific follow up in my poll about "what dairy". rookie error, sorry.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 09:01 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the majority of people who dabble with dairy don't just stop at butter, they also have a bit of yoghurt, greek yoghurt, cream, or one of the 1000's varieties of cheese etc. Maybe not as much as the no holds barred CWD eater, but significant enough to be exposed to something.

8e6c36f516ddb3495ccdb5c4804af65a

(20)

on September 08, 2011
at 09:00 PM

It *is* addicting! I just read this yesterday... about how the peptides in gluten & casein react with opiate receptors in the brain... http://www.corepsychblog.com/2007/08/celiac-notes-opiate-withdrawal-from-gluten-and-casein/#axzz1XHyB20JR WOW, huh?

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 08:56 PM

you're probably right, but hey, it was a fairly basic vox popli poll, that already had 10 options without making it even more complicated, but in hindsight I would have asked a dairy question - yea or nea on the various elements of dairy, I was seeking a 'general' feel for where people were at. You could say the same thing about 'red meat'- so many variables in there.

8e6c36f516ddb3495ccdb5c4804af65a

(20)

on September 08, 2011
at 08:47 PM

Oh, right, eggs... having an issue with eggs myself, and have cut them. Am hoping to be able to add them back in, but not at as high a level as before. Good luck with gut repair... I'm not all the way there yet, but better. Agree, no mold for everyone...

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on September 08, 2011
at 08:27 PM

Why cut out eggs?

8d3c422e94817ba453f3c1bc49bfc47e

(80)

on September 08, 2011
at 07:12 PM

Corn shows up in our organic CSA box. Once it has arrived on our doorstep I might as well grill it and serve it up with some cilantro lime butter, right??

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on September 08, 2011
at 06:53 PM

The Kolona milk is so delicious.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on September 08, 2011
at 06:31 PM

If the gluten free cornbread was commercially made, you can bet there was something in it other than corn, either as a stabilizer or texturizer or ??? I agree corn that hasn't been processed much seems benign for me too, I just don't digest it at all but I don't have a lot of symptoms.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on September 08, 2011
at 06:26 PM

Eating more protein and less fat is the problem, not a solution. All protein should be well lubricated with fat. It doesn't have to be butter, though. Tallow from cooking marrow bones, bacon fat, coconut oil, etc., all will make protein go down smoothly. In my case, I have trouble with milk fat and have to use ghee rather than butter.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on September 08, 2011
at 06:23 PM

I think the survey results would be more interesting if there had been a category "I have trouble digesting dairy." I'm definitely in that category, so you would have had me as "strict paleo" yet I'd eat dairy if I could.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 08, 2011
at 06:22 PM

I just had a cob of organic corn last night that was delicious. Grilling before you husk it is a great way to cook it btw.

07ca188c8dac3a17f629dd87198d2098

(7970)

on September 08, 2011
at 05:11 PM

WRT Robb's tortillas... Aren't (at least traditional) corn tortillas generally made from corn that's been nixtamalized, thereby lessening much of the anti-nutrient properties of corn?

7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on September 08, 2011
at 05:00 PM

I love hummus! It seems like as far as non-paleo foods go, hummus is fairly innocuous. But since the vast majority of what you can buy in a store here is crap, I haven't had any in a long time either.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 08, 2011
at 04:59 PM

Eliminating dairy, if not hyper-sensitive, probably suffers from diminished returns for increased health. There are higher priority things to eliminate than dairy and it seems most folks have also come to that conclusion.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 08, 2011
at 04:56 PM

N=1, but I find the seed oil thing to be the most important paleo point to keep to. I can usually tolerate grains to a decent degree, dairy and legumes are fine too, but going "off reservation" with seed oils makes me regret it later on. Pizza, for example, is a double whammy with high gluten and crappy oxidized oils. I love my raw goat dairy when I get it, but it's highly seasonal and not local at all.

9bca3c7a5a8a78433ce4a398b668aa4b

(287)

on September 08, 2011
at 03:56 PM

That's awesome!

8e1876a74536739ecf7bef97d5d97b76

(747)

on September 08, 2011
at 03:52 PM

I grew up with dairy goats in the back yard. I miss that aspect of my childhood. We made cheese but it never lasted long

8e1876a74536739ecf7bef97d5d97b76

(747)

on September 08, 2011
at 03:44 PM

I think you are confusing GM with hybrid corn... big difference. One is simple pollination (hybrid) and one is test tube babies (GM)

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 03:24 PM

hand up, I occasionally have corn chips, like Robb I like them and and they doesn't seem to bother me. Pretty sure they are organic non GMO. Don't have any now, so cant check. they are pretty bland alone, but as a vehicle for getting the salsa to my mouth? they bring me happiness.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 08, 2011
at 03:08 PM

Aili, I'm really beginning to believe the tiny bit of casomorphins present in dairy are addictive. Every time I've quit, I've re-started the same way: It's like I become some kind of zombie, and over the objections of my rational mind, I go into Dari-Mart and buy two cartons of cream, the whole time wondering why the hell I'm doing that. I agree; it's very weird.

3dc940ac9be21e45cf83207814c8cd46

(544)

on September 08, 2011
at 02:36 PM

I also struggle with dairy....same thing re binging behaviour. This is very weird to crave dairy stuff. Example- I had eaten greek yogurt after not having dairy for several weeks (4.5 months paleo) and had to tear myself away from the fridge because the yogurt kept calling me to let me know there was plenty left. So I do not buy it anymore. And also soft cheeses like camembert or brie...same thing. So only coffee cream and a little piece of hard cheese once in a while for me...I may have to cut it out altogether(:

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on September 08, 2011
at 02:32 PM

organic corn is not genetically modified...

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on September 08, 2011
at 02:29 PM

You need to add "Occaisional Oreos or McDonalds" to the survey.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on September 08, 2011
at 02:28 PM

Hmm, are we getting as bad as all those people who claim to be vegetarian, but happened to have eaten some meat on the day of the poll? (over 2/3 iirc)

Cfc7dee889a66db9cd76c4f348109294

(1652)

on September 08, 2011
at 02:05 PM

Did you survey seed oil consumption? I always thought of 'classical' paleo as no grains, legumes, seed oils and sort of dairy depending...

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 01:59 PM

Chickpeas -hummus, hmm I forgot all about hummus, havent had any for so long...perhaps an occasional hummus might sneak in the future :-) Beans in general make me fart like a champ, for that reason alone I didn't have any issues ditching them!

07ca188c8dac3a17f629dd87198d2098

(7970)

on September 08, 2011
at 01:47 PM

Heh, "somewhat legit". (remembering the hubbub about them sourcing some milk that might not be from grass fed cows when the weather turns)

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 01:30 PM

yes, yes. Not the exact specifics, but the general principle of something not being all that good for us, even though a good many of up can tolerate it. Cow's milk casein is calves, human milk casein for baby humans. Humans consuming cows milk casein? I take the Mat lelonde approach - perhaps we are poorly adapted.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 08, 2011
at 01:11 PM

casein is a protien designed for mammals, gluten is a plant storage protien.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 01:05 PM

I agree, I am in the some dairy and some rice camp. I was just surprised at the numbers, I honestly thought there were more people living the grain, dairy legume free life, not so much as a badge of honour, but just because. I myself am curious about the casein for example, will it be shown to be more like gluten in future analysis and studies? i.e tolerated by some but not really good for anyone.

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on September 08, 2011
at 12:18 PM

I had been dairy(butter, milk, cream) free for a while, but since starting a new relationship, my girlfriend has introduced me to raw cream and the butter she makes from it. We've both decided to stop buying the stuff because it's much more expensive than coconut milk, or the free coconut oil her mother gives her.

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29 Answers

22
32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 08, 2011
at 12:53 PM

Maybe folks are more interested in a functional enjoyable diet more than some badge of honor for being 100% compliant with a set of dietary rules. The need to avoid dairy 100% is more with the folks who have significant auto-immunity problems, lactose intolerance and dairy allergies. If you're free of these conditions, you're likely going to have no trouble with a moderate amount of dairy, even commercial dairy from A1 cattle.

I think Mark Sisson has positioned dairy at the right spot in the "do this to be healthier"/paleo spectrum. Along side legumes and "mild" grains.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 01:30 PM

yes, yes. Not the exact specifics, but the general principle of something not being all that good for us, even though a good many of up can tolerate it. Cow's milk casein is calves, human milk casein for baby humans. Humans consuming cows milk casein? I take the Mat lelonde approach - perhaps we are poorly adapted.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 01:05 PM

I agree, I am in the some dairy and some rice camp. I was just surprised at the numbers, I honestly thought there were more people living the grain, dairy legume free life, not so much as a badge of honour, but just because. I myself am curious about the casein for example, will it be shown to be more like gluten in future analysis and studies? i.e tolerated by some but not really good for anyone.

Cfc7dee889a66db9cd76c4f348109294

(1652)

on September 08, 2011
at 02:05 PM

Did you survey seed oil consumption? I always thought of 'classical' paleo as no grains, legumes, seed oils and sort of dairy depending...

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 08, 2011
at 01:11 PM

casein is a protien designed for mammals, gluten is a plant storage protien.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 08, 2011
at 04:56 PM

N=1, but I find the seed oil thing to be the most important paleo point to keep to. I can usually tolerate grains to a decent degree, dairy and legumes are fine too, but going "off reservation" with seed oils makes me regret it later on. Pizza, for example, is a double whammy with high gluten and crappy oxidized oils. I love my raw goat dairy when I get it, but it's highly seasonal and not local at all.

9
F5a8a14fc6a4d33c2563d0dd3066698a

(714)

on September 08, 2011
at 01:19 PM

Matt said "Maybe folks are more interested in a functional enjoyable diet more than some badge of honor for being 100% compliant with a set of dietary rules."

I think this is an important observation. It seems to be one of the key attributes of our ancestors was adaptability. How else do you end up with Inuit and Kitavans?

To me, very rigid adherence to minute dietary rules is more a religious thing than anything else. Whether you're Jewish, Muslim, vegan, or one of our paleo brothers letting his free-range chicken rot a little bit before eating it. Such lifestyles have merits. But those merits-- to me-- beyond a certain point seem to have very little to do with physiology or an acceptance of how we're designed, and everything to do with moral codes.

To me it's about slowly and patiently discovering what works for me, without being a total tool about it to myself and everyone around me. If that means eating an ear of corn every once in a while because it tastes freaking awesome, so be it. If that means eating some galumpke my 95 year-old grandmom helped make even though it has bread in the filling, okeedokee.

You know what's funny, though? That ALL said, I think I'm considering eliminating the dairy...so intuitively I think there might be something to the observation that dairy is the dividing line between strict and casual paleo.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 08, 2011
at 04:59 PM

Eliminating dairy, if not hyper-sensitive, probably suffers from diminished returns for increased health. There are higher priority things to eliminate than dairy and it seems most folks have also come to that conclusion.

072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on September 09, 2011
at 02:29 AM

You last sentence doesn't quite line up with the rest of your post, which I totally agree with. I would say that if you are considering dumping dairy, then you for some reason have determined that it doesn't work for you. Yeah. If my 85 year old grandma makes me brownies, I will eat them and love them.

F5a8a14fc6a4d33c2563d0dd3066698a

(714)

on September 09, 2011
at 12:35 PM

Heh, Tom. The last sentence was sort of meant to be funnily ironic. As in "Despite all that, I am still considering chucking dairy." I will note, though, I am only considering it. And if I ever pull that trigger, it won't be thorough. There will always be room in my life for cream in coffee, and a little gorgonzola now and again. But I should probably cut out those days where I eat a half-pound of cheese with that soppressatta.

072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on September 10, 2011
at 05:04 PM

I can dig that. I think you've got a good approach, but damn that's a lot of cheese. Per my post below, dairy doesn't do it for me. I wish it did, to tell the truth. A half pound of cheese would cause my gut to rupture.

499f188c87c6980742b9ba98caa6f563

(683)

on November 09, 2011
at 02:58 AM

Ah, galumpki! Actually, “gałumpki” with the Polish slash-L, pronounced ga-wump-ki. My Polish mother, grandmothers, and aunts all make it and it was a part of every holiday meal. Memories!

8
03fa485bfd54734522755f47a5e6597e

(3944)

on September 08, 2011
at 04:47 PM

I think lumping all dairy together into one all-or-nothing category is almost as meaningless as lumping together all starches, from wheat to potatoes to rice. When you "put dairy under a microscope," the first thing you see is that there's a big difference between dairy fat and dairy sugar/protein, raw/cooked/fermented, type A/B, grass/grain-fed, and so on. There's a big difference between eating raw butter you made from cream from your own grass-fed cow, versus drinking 2% pasteurized milk from the store -- maybe as big a difference at that between eating wheat pasta or a sweet potato. I suspect that many people here who would answer that they "eat dairy" wouldn't touch 90% of what's in the supermarket dairy case.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 08:56 PM

you're probably right, but hey, it was a fairly basic vox popli poll, that already had 10 options without making it even more complicated, but in hindsight I would have asked a dairy question - yea or nea on the various elements of dairy, I was seeking a 'general' feel for where people were at. You could say the same thing about 'red meat'- so many variables in there.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on September 08, 2011
at 09:27 PM

Sure they might....for instance I eat butter for cooking, goat cheese for salads, and heavy cream for coffee. I would however, go as far as to say that I don't have more than 1-2oz a day of the stuff all totaled up.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 09:01 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the majority of people who dabble with dairy don't just stop at butter, they also have a bit of yoghurt, greek yoghurt, cream, or one of the 1000's varieties of cheese etc. Maybe not as much as the no holds barred CWD eater, but significant enough to be exposed to something.

5
8e75344356f4a455185ee52da0b90bf2

on September 08, 2011
at 12:51 PM

I'm Lacto-Paleo (4 1/2 years now!) and I never gave up dairy simply because I like it (same reason I never gave up alcohol). But the amount of dairy I eat is minimal. I havent drunk milk in 5 years, I use heavy cream in my coffee one day a week (tea the other days), rarely use butter, and eat maybe an oz of cheese a day.

All that being said, I gave up all nightshades and all fruit 4 1/2 years ago and have never touched any/either since.

I think that's what I love about Paleo - it's sooooo adaptable. :)

Ppl who talk about low-carb / primal / paleo being "boring" and "too restrictive" are idiots!

4
Medium avatar

on September 08, 2011
at 06:27 PM

I started out with an extremely heavy pastured butter consumption and have since cut out all dairy. I simply don't believe in innocuous hypercholesterolemia anymore. Additionally, many cheeses trigger reactive hypoglycemia for me, I never liked milk, and I don't really notice a negative difference by using macadamia nut oil for the occasional fried steak or whatever.

I'd say though that if you feel good consuming it and it doesn't appear to cause any health marker aberrations, then there's no reason to avoid it.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 10, 2011
at 04:04 AM

Hey Travis. Why do you think cheese triggers reactive hypoglycemia for you? I mean..what is science behind? I gave up alcohol for example years ago because I've always been hypoglycemic. I would have a blood sugar crash the next day after drinking so I have not drank for 9 years. I love cheese. Interested to know and thank you for your commentary.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 14, 2011
at 04:35 PM

I think it's due to the proportions of insulinogenic proteins. It *really* happens with any kind of reduced-fat cheese, and less so with real cheese.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 14, 2011
at 08:13 PM

Thanks Travis...

4
1d0497f8781845ab371b479455bfee8e

(11157)

on September 08, 2011
at 01:45 PM

I don't really care one way or the other about including dairy--I've never been a huge milk, cheese or ice cream fan, even as a kid and it leaves a nasty aftertaste. Every great once in a while I'll add a dash of heavy cream to my coffee, or use butter in a recipe, but otherwise it's no big stretch for me to eliminate it from my diet.

I was strict Paleo for about 6 months. Now on occasion (like, once a month), I'll indulge in some naan bread when I eat Indian, or some rice with sushi (a little more often--few times a month), or when I eat Cuban I'll have some black beans & rice. The bread has the most noticeable effect, with bloating and an all-around feeling of "blah", so I try not to overdo it.

I'm in the camp that includes nightshades and tubers, because I can't understand why we'd have the starch-digesting enzyme amylase in our saliva (6-8x higher in humans than in chimps) if we hadn't evolved to digest those kinds of foods.

3
Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 14, 2011
at 04:08 PM

I still eat a fair amount of dairy, though I have reduced my heavy cream intake significantly as a knee jerk reaction to my VAP results in July. Up to that point, I was consuming about 2-3 pints of pure cream weekly, mostly via berries and cream for breakfast along with a splash in my coffee. Now I basically just put a splash in my coffee, so I can't even get through 1 pint a week now.

I eat about 2 tbsp of pasture butter daily, which I think is very reasonable.

I buy a half gallon of organic raw whole milk from 100% grass pasture raised cows. It's $8 per half gallon! lol. But I drink about a half gallon per week, which isn't very much (about 1 cup per day) but also isn't absent from my regimen.

I have a pure whey protein isolate PWO drink 4-5 times per week.

I always have high quality, pure cheeses in my fridge. Usually 2-3 at a time. Probably spend about $30 a month on cheese.

Yogurt - meh. I tried Traderspoint Creamery. I liked it well enough, but I just don't desire yogurt.

Sour Cream - Trader Joes makes an excellent sour cream from their organic cream with no lousy ingredients. We buy about 1 container per month.

Ghee!! I cook with 2 oils... coconut oil, and ghee, and I looooooove me some ghee. I usually like to mix em in the pan actually, especially when cooking potatoes/sweet potatoes. I probably eat at least 1 tbsp of ghee per day on average. I make my own from pasture butter.

So there you have it. Butter, Cream, Ghee, Whey, Sour Cream, Cheese, Milk.

Looks like I eat my fair share of dairy, but I really don't eat copious amounts of any one item anymore like I previously did with cream and butter.

Grains - I'm about 95% gluten free, but I do eat some gluten occassionally. Pizza once a month, microbrew beer about once a week, some kind of bread product once every couple weeks or so. I'm not too worried about it because my intake is so low and I seem to have no problem with gluten. I just don't think it's healthy to overindulge as most people do.

Oh! and I have no problem with legumes (but I don't eat peanuts or soy). We ferment beans in the crockpot for 24 hours and then cook for an additional 8 hours. Put that action over some rice with cracked pepper, sea salt, and a spoon of pasture butter and throw in some bacon pieces. Delicious!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 09, 2011
at 03:49 PM

ROB made a comment on another thread that when he gave up dairy, a nagging pain in his chest area (similar to what I'm feeling) went away. Several people on PH said I should try giving up dairy. It may be my next trial run. Uggh. I don't wanna do it, but I also want to feel tip top.

3
D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on September 08, 2011
at 06:59 PM

The premise of pale is in a sense to know for certain what you can get away with. Most people think they can get away with dietary murder eating wheat three square meals a day, munching of sugar snacks filled with God knows what sort of unpronounceable fillers and downing it all with shots of soy oil. The paleo notion is that without abstaining from foods, you don't know how you react to them. It asks people to learn what they can really get away with. And some people can get away with murder. They can eat what they want. Most of us can't. But this is a know yourself type gig. If Paleo doesn't help you, don't do it (unless you have a predilection for longevity and compression of morbidity).

For me, I can't touch gluten and I do better when I don't touch dairy as well. Eating dairy increases general inflammation and I get a bit of backne (on the upper right shoulder only...). I eat rice, buckwheat, teff and tapioca. My fruit and sugar intake is pretty high but my pufa intake is tiny. When I skew too high on the fat I feel bogged down. I'm thinking about toying with properly prepared legumes at some point.

3
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on September 08, 2011
at 02:33 PM

I get the impression that there are many more people for whom "dairy" is not a monolithic and who believe that butter/ghee is quite different from something like milk. I don't consume things like milk or heavy cream, as they upset my stomach, but have butter/ghee somewhat often because I get benefits from the butyric acid. Cheese and yogurt are grey areas for me, I'm sure they are better than unfermented dairy, but I don't eat them every day.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 09:04 PM

yeah, I am beginning to wish I had asked a more specific follow up in my poll about "what dairy". rookie error, sorry.

3
07ca188c8dac3a17f629dd87198d2098

(7970)

on September 08, 2011
at 01:56 PM

The dairy I use is butter (usually either KerryGold or Organic Valley Pasture Butter), some ghee*, full fat greek yogurt, goat milk kefir, cream in my coffee (occasionally), cheese, and Kolona SuperNatural whole milk (lightly pasteurized, at one point I thought the milk was sourced from grass fed cows but I can't find that claim lately, and not homogenized) in my protein shakes. Oh, and protein shakes, whey and casein. I'm actually trying to transition to getting more of my protein needs from foods. I'll likely get casein from cottage cheese. Kolona makes some that I'm quite fond of.

I'll also eat rice - usually sushi rice, either with sushi/sashimi, or all day long by itself if I've got a triathlon the next day.

I don't do legumes.

  • Some might argue that ghee isn't really dairy.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on September 08, 2011
at 06:53 PM

The Kolona milk is so delicious.

3
3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 08, 2011
at 01:30 PM

I struggle with dairy, not because I'm trying to be more "Paleo," but because it causes digestive problems and bloating for me. And bingeing behavior. Just as with coffee, my answer really would be "depends on when you ask me." Right now I've been dairy-free for four days, after a month and a half or so that saw me guzzling down a pint of heavy cream or more a day. Sigh.

Interestingly, I'd reckon that since starting this woe four years ago, I've probably had dairy about 80% of the time, with me trying to kick it 20%. No grains that whole time, though, and no legumes for the last two years.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 08, 2011
at 03:08 PM

Aili, I'm really beginning to believe the tiny bit of casomorphins present in dairy are addictive. Every time I've quit, I've re-started the same way: It's like I become some kind of zombie, and over the objections of my rational mind, I go into Dari-Mart and buy two cartons of cream, the whole time wondering why the hell I'm doing that. I agree; it's very weird.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 09, 2011
at 04:16 AM

Rose and Aili. I can so relate with this...it starts a binge for me or is a tool I use at the end of a binge to go strict again. I have finally decreased my dairy in the last 30 days at an attempt to cut it all the way. I failed at that but I definitely notice digestion, cravings are better. At least I'm not melting the cheese on a plate and eating anymore!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on September 08, 2011
at 06:23 PM

I think the survey results would be more interesting if there had been a category "I have trouble digesting dairy." I'm definitely in that category, so you would have had me as "strict paleo" yet I'd eat dairy if I could.

3dc940ac9be21e45cf83207814c8cd46

(544)

on September 08, 2011
at 02:36 PM

I also struggle with dairy....same thing re binging behaviour. This is very weird to crave dairy stuff. Example- I had eaten greek yogurt after not having dairy for several weeks (4.5 months paleo) and had to tear myself away from the fridge because the yogurt kept calling me to let me know there was plenty left. So I do not buy it anymore. And also soft cheeses like camembert or brie...same thing. So only coffee cream and a little piece of hard cheese once in a while for me...I may have to cut it out altogether(:

2
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 14, 2011
at 11:08 AM

Dairy rocks. Its 50% of my diet whole my life. I just don't drink cows milk

Plus, goat milk is paleo if you want to be purist.

Plus, if you remove wheat, most of the dairy alergenic problems probably go away.

Go for the kefir, goat cheese, yogurt with probiotics, butter and NO low fat stuff, fruity yogurts and shit like that.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on October 15, 2011
at 12:30 AM

Yes on goat dairy, thank god for goat dairy.

2
8508fec4bae4a580d1e1b807058fee8e

on September 10, 2011
at 02:53 AM

I think it's a good question to ask. Paleo is not a dogma or religion - it is guiding principles. I like the performance triangle Robb Wolf mentioned in his recent Boston seminar - performance, health, and longevity. It all depends on the individual and their goals.

My husband is celiac so he eats strict gluten-free, legume-free, grain-free, 90% nightshade free Paleo. A cheat meal might be rice, beans, corn, or potatoes. We never saw benefits cutting out pastured dairy as heavy cream, butter, ghee, and 1-2 servings a day of full-fat cheese/yogurt so we enjoy continuing to eat those.

I eat like my husband but in addition but I consume nightshades and 1 serving of white rice a day. At home, I'm strict gluten free but since cross-contamination doesn't bother me I'm not that strict eating out. I have had constipation, scalp psoriasis, and mood swings? on larger amounts of gluten pre-Paleo so I'll never eat bread, pasta or open sources of gluten. I'm not going to stress about cross-contamination because I'm not a celiac and have not noticed any differences with cross-contamination. My cheats are like my husband but I will eat green peas or green beans sometimes - I never cheat with gluten (except for trace amounts in cross-contamination).

I think the next AHS should survey the attendees about dairy, legumes, rice, nightshades, etc as different questions because some people avoid some but not all. It would be a good statistical number since over 600 attendees were at the last one, and I expect at least that much if not more at the next.

2
8e6c36f516ddb3495ccdb5c4804af65a

on September 08, 2011
at 08:43 PM

NO dairy, ever! Makes me as sick as gluten does (not just the lactose, the casein/whey, too). No legumes or grains, either. I do eat the occasional white potato and tomato (no tomatoes that aren't from "here and now" - the season's almost over). I haven't had corn or rice for a long time, and feel much better without. I thought I would include occasional rice or corn for social or cuisine-tweaking reasons, but - nope. And I actually think it's easier this way. (Wow, I would have voted myself "least likely to adhere," but I would have been wrong.)

2
2d4ff23c8ce7fb00708fa88ceffd4087

(408)

on September 08, 2011
at 06:51 PM

I just binged on a whole pound of Kerrygold Dubliner Cheese after being dairy free for a couple months. I don't know what it is about dairy, but once I begin to eat it I can't stop. It's extremely addicting. I don't seem to have the same digestive reactions to cheese as I do to butter, milk or cream, but I'll keep a close eye out for any other unfavorable symptoms.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on September 09, 2011
at 01:11 AM

Damm seductive dairy.

8e6c36f516ddb3495ccdb5c4804af65a

(20)

on September 08, 2011
at 09:00 PM

It *is* addicting! I just read this yesterday... about how the peptides in gluten & casein react with opiate receptors in the brain... http://www.corepsychblog.com/2007/08/celiac-notes-opiate-withdrawal-from-gluten-and-casein/#axzz1XHyB20JR WOW, huh?

2
8c5533ffe71bd4262fedc7e898ead1ba

on September 08, 2011
at 02:00 PM

I'm surprised to hear several of you say you eat corn, of all things. Since all corn in the US is Genetically Modified, I would've thought you'd want to stay away from that, if only for that reason. But then again, I know Robb says he east a corn tortilla now and again.

Me, I'm in the no dairy, no grain, no legumes camp, but not 'cause I want some badge of honor. Been allergic to dairy since I was a teen, grains make me feel like crap and I don't digest legumes. But if you can tolerate 'em, good for you. I certainly love to watch people eat hot fudge sundaes!

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 08, 2011
at 06:22 PM

I just had a cob of organic corn last night that was delicious. Grilling before you husk it is a great way to cook it btw.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on September 08, 2011
at 02:32 PM

organic corn is not genetically modified...

8e1876a74536739ecf7bef97d5d97b76

(747)

on September 08, 2011
at 03:44 PM

I think you are confusing GM with hybrid corn... big difference. One is simple pollination (hybrid) and one is test tube babies (GM)

07ca188c8dac3a17f629dd87198d2098

(7970)

on September 08, 2011
at 05:11 PM

WRT Robb's tortillas... Aren't (at least traditional) corn tortillas generally made from corn that's been nixtamalized, thereby lessening much of the anti-nutrient properties of corn?

8d3c422e94817ba453f3c1bc49bfc47e

(80)

on September 08, 2011
at 07:12 PM

Corn shows up in our organic CSA box. Once it has arrived on our doorstep I might as well grill it and serve it up with some cilantro lime butter, right??

8c5533ffe71bd4262fedc7e898ead1ba

(1724)

on September 09, 2011
at 07:25 AM

If they are not organic, they are definitely GMO. (This is true in the US for corn, soybeans, canola, cottonseed and anything listed as simply "sugar"). If it is certified organic, then they cannot *intentionally* include GMO products.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 03:24 PM

hand up, I occasionally have corn chips, like Robb I like them and and they doesn't seem to bother me. Pretty sure they are organic non GMO. Don't have any now, so cant check. they are pretty bland alone, but as a vehicle for getting the salsa to my mouth? they bring me happiness.

B1859f696e88d25460a6b8a333412ea3

(837)

on September 14, 2011
at 04:37 AM

I buy masa flour (Bob's Red Mill Gluten Free) and use it with eggs, coconut flour & spicy ground beef to make a 'tamale'"impossible" pie that's very yummy and quick.

2
16a83c62c4650896080a9d3d94159059

on September 08, 2011
at 01:36 PM

The dairy I eat is full fat greek yogurt, butter, and a splash of cream in my coffee. No legumes and no grains are the way I go.i eat fruit everyday and sometimes multiple times a day. I lost 40 lbs and have maintained my weight for a good, 4 months. I don't get the total anti-fruit angle. I feel so much better eating fruit than not eating it.

1
B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on October 15, 2011
at 12:51 AM

I dump a liter down my throat everyday or more if I'm having one of those milk cravings. Also eat cheese usually full fat mozzarella (vs low-moisture) or other European species of soft white non-stinky cheese maybe about 125g a day. Cream in my coffee (maybe 2-4 tablespoons) and half a liter of vanilla ice cream probably about 4 days out of the week. And at least 150g of butter a day.

In my high fat days I used to do some hardcore butter eating. (You can search for pictures of my fridge.)

I don't like adding extra stuff or extra fat, doesn't seem normal to me after I really sat down to honestly think about it even though it was really easy to do. I can go without diary but it's a quick and easily digestible (maybe not for others) way for me to get something nutritious and fitting for my lifestyle. For me honestly food is purely functional, if I didn't have to eat I probably wouldn't (okay, maybe a salt lick), the only thing really tasty I eat is beef dishes and eggs. And while I eat a lot of fruit and drink a good amount of orange juice and it tastes good, I really just eat it because it's easy, I don't really fiddle with many above ground vegetables, beans or weeds (again not because I think they're harmful, but preparing them in the traditional fashion is not something I really feel like spending time doing most days, it's more of an occasional thing).

I had good health doing strict paleo, fairly good health doing high-fat, okay health with high protein, but by far what I've settled on is optimal for me, I just don't have to think about it anymore.

1
77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on September 14, 2011
at 05:41 PM

I'm glad somebody finally mentioned drinking raw milk (props to Jack). I've been buying a gallon of raw milk once a month. It's only $7. A good tip is to contact your local WAPF chapter for sourcing raw dairy. The Chicago chapter has a website.

I also eat several varieties of organic yogurt daily, and kefir on and off. I'm pretty sure that fermented dairy doesn't have most of the stuff that makes dairy questionable, which is why I don't pay extra for raw fermented dairy.

I also eat raw pastured butter, as well store-bought varieties like Kerrygold and Smor when I need large amounts for recipes; the raw stuff is $14/lb. But I do most of my cooking in animal fats. In fact, just got two pounds of leaf fat from a pastured pig, and its crazy delicious.

1
6ec8d30130a6fb274871314533b5536b

(581)

on September 14, 2011
at 04:22 AM

I definitely eat dairy, but not all dairy, and most dairy not often. :) Yeah, I confuse myself too.

I'm intolerant to milk, so I don't drink it, but I'm able to eat some cheese (most of which I have eliminated, though, due to Candida, and asthma and allergies... makes me mucousy!). I'm also able to eat moderate amounts of heavy cream and yogurt, but find that I can make myself sick if I eat too much.

I'm not really a strict paleo eater, though. But I should be more strict, because I still have Candida problems...

Oh, and I'm fat. xD

1
072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on September 08, 2011
at 08:56 PM

I've experimented with dairy since moving more toward a Paleo/primal approach. The forms most often tried are full fat Greek yogurt, a little ice cream here or there, and whey protein post workout. My n=1 on the whey lead me to the conclusion it was the cause of knee and other joint pain, so I've dropped it. I will still eat a small amount of yogurt or ice cream if I'm feeling the need.

You can also put me in the camp of "some rice," and I will also have a nightly light beer, so I'm not sure where to put me in your bell curve. I probably fall into the "functional enjoyable diet" group described earlier in this post.

1
24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on September 08, 2011
at 05:37 PM

I cook often with clarified butter, I use heavy cream in my coffee pretty regularly, and I like some cheese on my burgers, spaghetti squash, etc., but I've definitely reduced my dairy intake since doing a Whole30. I was pleasantly surprised how much I didn't miss cheese! I try to keep my dairy at least organic, preferably grassfed.

My biggest no-no is gluten, followed by legumes, then corn. Corn chips and tortillas don't seem to bother me on occasion, but I had gluten free cornbread a few weeks ago and felt awful the next day :( I'm pretty strict when it comes to grocery shopping, but sometimes treat myself at restaurants.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on September 08, 2011
at 06:31 PM

If the gluten free cornbread was commercially made, you can bet there was something in it other than corn, either as a stabilizer or texturizer or ??? I agree corn that hasn't been processed much seems benign for me too, I just don't digest it at all but I don't have a lot of symptoms.

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on September 09, 2011
at 03:09 AM

It was Bob's Red Mill- I know it sorghum also; can't remember what else :/ It was good though- almost worth it!

1
Df45ff15a3b093b7f22f0fec5ae1237a

(260)

on September 08, 2011
at 03:49 PM

I follow strict paleo 99% of the time. After reading paleo solution and doing research on gut repair it doesn't make sense to me- for me- to not be strict paleo. Ive even considered cutting eggs, nuts, and nightshades. The only reason why I haven't is I have no idea what I would eat. When it comes to diet I think you have to do what is right for you. I don't think that there is an exact perfect mold for everyone. I do think everyone would benefit from paleo and I think vegans/veggies are silly but I don't think that it's right to push my beliefs on anyone so we'll just pretend I didn't say that. :)

8e6c36f516ddb3495ccdb5c4804af65a

(20)

on September 08, 2011
at 08:47 PM

Oh, right, eggs... having an issue with eggs myself, and have cut them. Am hoping to be able to add them back in, but not at as high a level as before. Good luck with gut repair... I'm not all the way there yet, but better. Agree, no mold for everyone...

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on September 08, 2011
at 08:27 PM

Why cut out eggs?

1
9bca3c7a5a8a78433ce4a398b668aa4b

(287)

on September 08, 2011
at 03:03 PM

I sometimes do dairy, but goat milk dairy. Butter is tough to find that has no color additives, Fresh Market used to carry a good brand but I havent seen it at my local store in a while. Goat cheese is probably turning into one of my favorite things. I might have it 3-4 times a week (depending on my meals) but I dont cut it and just eat it like that. It has to be incorporated into my meal. IF I can get ahold of a good butter, I might add a half a tablespoon into my morning coffee once a week. (soooooo good, trust me on this one)

9bca3c7a5a8a78433ce4a398b668aa4b

(287)

on September 08, 2011
at 03:56 PM

That's awesome!

8e1876a74536739ecf7bef97d5d97b76

(747)

on September 08, 2011
at 03:52 PM

I grew up with dairy goats in the back yard. I miss that aspect of my childhood. We made cheese but it never lasted long

1
306aa57660d911781231f8090c2a5619

(3808)

on September 08, 2011
at 02:37 PM

I don't eat dairy, but mainly because my breastfeeding baby is dairy sensitive rather than any personal health issues. I was very strict for about six months, and a little more relaxed the past month or so because she no longer has a notable reaction to small amounts (ie. a little butter or a slice of cheese once a week or so). We sometimes make clarified butter, but I haven't done that lately.

I doubt we'll ever go full-on dairy - one of my older kids has behavioral reactions to it. But we keep goats that we eventually intend to milk, so it may end up playing a bigger part than it does now.

1
7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on September 08, 2011
at 01:39 PM

I use butter for cooking because it's fairly cheap and coconut oil makes me feel sick. I dislike almost all other dairy products, except a bit of cheese in specific foods (I'm going to lose my Paleo badge for admitting that one of them is pizza). I don't know why but they just make my stomach turn. And cheese seems cause significant digestive upset for me too.

I don't eat legumes regularly, but I don't think they're actually bad for us, and would have no problems eating lentils or chickpeas every so often. And I do eat white rice regularly.

7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on September 08, 2011
at 05:00 PM

I love hummus! It seems like as far as non-paleo foods go, hummus is fairly innocuous. But since the vast majority of what you can buy in a store here is crap, I haven't had any in a long time either.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 08, 2011
at 01:59 PM

Chickpeas -hummus, hmm I forgot all about hummus, havent had any for so long...perhaps an occasional hummus might sneak in the future :-) Beans in general make me fart like a champ, for that reason alone I didn't have any issues ditching them!

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on September 10, 2011
at 01:36 AM

I used to make my own: Chickpeas, garlic, lemon juice, cumin, tahini (almond butter). Put it in blender and voila!

0
5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on September 08, 2011
at 01:07 PM

I eat some dairy (grass fed, full fat, but can't get raw) cheese, butter, cream, and yogurt. However, I'm going to try eliminating at least the cheese and yogurt to see if it helps me drop weight a bit quicker.

0
C8253d9610402729148604bd9235fc24

on September 08, 2011
at 12:32 PM

I do dairy (cream butter cheese), sometimes rice/corn but no legumes. I probably should give up the dairy as I've gained weight (but lost inches) and developed acne on my arms from shoulders to elbows. But it's what keeps me satiated. Eating more protein and less fat has not worked for me.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on September 08, 2011
at 06:26 PM

Eating more protein and less fat is the problem, not a solution. All protein should be well lubricated with fat. It doesn't have to be butter, though. Tallow from cooking marrow bones, bacon fat, coconut oil, etc., all will make protein go down smoothly. In my case, I have trouble with milk fat and have to use ghee rather than butter.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 09, 2011
at 02:49 AM

UPDATE: As my gut health improves, I'm able to use a little whipping cream in my coffee and I'm even experimenting with kefir.

0
E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 08, 2011
at 12:13 PM

Most people in the paleo word probably eat dairy because kerry gold butter is so cheap, widely available and somewhat legit.

I personally consume a good bit of dairy because its so cheap and convenient compared to flesh based animal products.

07ca188c8dac3a17f629dd87198d2098

(7970)

on September 08, 2011
at 01:47 PM

Heh, "somewhat legit". (remembering the hubbub about them sourcing some milk that might not be from grass fed cows when the weather turns)

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