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11 Weeks Paleo, and NOW I have sudden onset of joint pain...

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created May 15, 2013 at 2:27 AM

Hi there,

Before discussing the joint pain, here's a quick background. I was/am the definition of morbidly obese. I was 282 pounds at the start and 5'10. I also had severe IBS and chronic acid reflux. Additionally, I had suffered from viral meningitis in September, and prior to starting this lifestyle, I had chronic headaches. Since I started, I'm off ALL heartburn meds, I have no more headaches, and my stomach is actually regulated. I still have morning gut pain, but VERY mild. I've also lost 34 lbs.

Here's the problem. In the last couple of weeks, I've had severe joint pain in my fingers. It may be somewhat coincidental, but this IS a major lifestyle change I've made recently. It isn't constant pain, but it does come for a few hours at a time, and there isn't a pattern to it.

As for my diet, I am very low carb, sticking mostly to an extremely strict paleo diet. I do have cheese though. I have a lot of protein and veggies with a couple servings of fruit a day. My wife eats potatoes, but the times I tried sweet or white potato, I paid the price shortly thereafter. I do know that my system is extremely sensitive to things, and if something was made with an oil that I didn't realize, it makes me sick. (That's how I learned that the homemade baked chicken at the local supermarket is very evil.)

Anyway, I appreciate your advice and thoughts!

Sincerely,

Jason

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on May 16, 2013
at 03:52 AM

Actually what I am saying is you have to know your context before you act or make changes......for most people the assumptions made by the paleo community are very cookbook and boilerplate when they should be customized. simplified carbs in any diet will not help you.....no matter your template because of what they do to cytochrome one.....regardless of what paleo leaders say. http://www.jackkruse.com/quantum-biology-4-metabolic-syndrome/

8d386bf2c5ba20fcc1a2a0c805b217c9

(743)

on May 15, 2013
at 08:04 PM

Dr. Kruse, I read parts of your blog post. So what you're essentially saying is, when we cut the carbs, our gut flora influence our cravings and negatively effect our physiological functions? What would the solution to that be, continue the keto-diet, fight the cravings, and take probiotics? My apologies if I misunderstood your post.

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on May 15, 2013
at 03:33 PM

see their success story on Jay by the way, for inspiration

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on May 15, 2013
at 03:32 PM

(not that there's anything wrong with wanting a six-pack!) I just think more people need help with their health problems than getting down to single digit body fat.

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on May 15, 2013
at 03:32 PM

Sure...and just one other to note: obviously with the right diet, you will lose weight, but obesity is a REALLY complex case, which might also be caused by an infection or gut dysbiosis or other problem. They advise you to take it slow - I know it's hard - but with good health (and eating the proper diet, and ensuring vitamin and mineral sufficiencies) it seems like weight loss will occur. I like their success stories better than the ones on Paleo/Primal because the people seem to have been able to make long-term changes focused on health and none on getting a six pack

6d1d2c385960f3d82d960ae3cffb3193

(94)

on May 15, 2013
at 03:12 PM

Thank you, as well. I really am enjoying reading your blog and find it really helpful!

6d1d2c385960f3d82d960ae3cffb3193

(94)

on May 15, 2013
at 03:09 PM

Thanks so much for all the information! I'm certainly going to look into all of this.

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2 Answers

2
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on May 15, 2013
at 12:05 PM

Here is an excerpt from a blog I wrote that may help you understand why this happens.

"Another byproduct is acetaldehyde and it is related to formaldehyde this disrupts collagen production, fatty acid oxidation and blocks normal nerve functions. I see this problem as a spine surgeon because of the acceleration of disc degeneration in the spine. Orthopedic surgeons see it in the major joints. We are taught to replace those joints instead of fixing the real problem??????.the altered gut. I got this message about 7 years ago and began to change the way I managed the diseases of the spine and brain. The ethanol and acetaldehyde will also help hasten the brain by allowing more inflammation into through the blood brain barrier and into the brain. When this occurs we see depression, the loss of DHA (fish oil fat), phospholipids, ceremides and sphingolipids in the brain and function slowly diminishes overtime. Protein folding becomes abnormal and things like Alzheimer???s, and Parkinson???s, and cerebral strokes become very common. When we lose DHA we tend to replace it with other PUFA???s that don???t have the ???magic built??? into its chemistry that DHA does. We outlined that briefly in Brain Gut 5. That was a pretty important blog post in retrospect. We also lose total body and brain iodine that protects our DHA from any oxidative attack. This diminishes the production of pro-resolution chemicals in the brain. They are called resolvins, lipoxins, and protectins. I mentioned these briefly in Brain Gut 5. They were discovered by an opthalmic researcher at LSU (Dr. Bazan) and this is where I first heard about them. Their job is to protect the most sensitive part of DHA???s PUFA structure from the oxidation of inflammation. They work in concert with iodine to protect the integrity in the areas of the synapse where nerve connections are made. This is where neural connections occur to control all the processes in our body. This allows us to control proper signaling. This is the source of all cancers. When inflammation is high signaling is lost in all types of neolithic diseases. Most diseases have an inflammatory brain component to them."

http://www.jackkruse.com/brain-gut-9-what-really-killed-michael-jackson/

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on May 16, 2013
at 03:52 AM

Actually what I am saying is you have to know your context before you act or make changes......for most people the assumptions made by the paleo community are very cookbook and boilerplate when they should be customized. simplified carbs in any diet will not help you.....no matter your template because of what they do to cytochrome one.....regardless of what paleo leaders say. http://www.jackkruse.com/quantum-biology-4-metabolic-syndrome/

6d1d2c385960f3d82d960ae3cffb3193

(94)

on May 15, 2013
at 03:12 PM

Thank you, as well. I really am enjoying reading your blog and find it really helpful!

8d386bf2c5ba20fcc1a2a0c805b217c9

(743)

on May 15, 2013
at 08:04 PM

Dr. Kruse, I read parts of your blog post. So what you're essentially saying is, when we cut the carbs, our gut flora influence our cravings and negatively effect our physiological functions? What would the solution to that be, continue the keto-diet, fight the cravings, and take probiotics? My apologies if I misunderstood your post.

1
8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on May 15, 2013
at 01:01 PM

Hi Jason,

are you aware of the perfect health diet? it's a twist on paleo, in that it focuses on getting better health, and focuses on vitamin and mineral deficiencies as the source of many problems, calls for eating beef, lamb, shellfish and salmon, keeping chicken and pork to once per week, and lots of eggs, for glutathione production, kidneys for selenium, seaweed for iodine, etc.. it's pretty well presented here:

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/the-diet/

Also they think that chronic infections can be the source of many health problems, pointing to cervical cancer being caused by HPV, H. pylori causing ulcers, the lack of cases of Multiple Sclerosis on a fairly remote island until it was occupied by the british in the 1930's.

However, it may be that chronic conditions such as arthritis are also caused by fungi, bacteria, or viruses. I think mark sisson just posted a link to how arthritis improved with antibiotics in his most recent link love?

also fibromyalgia, lyme disease, etc. may be caused by bacteria, fungi, viruses, etc. that are very difficult to treat.

I have found their diet worked for me that Paleo didn't - basically a good diet to start with to fight health problems, further evolved than paleo.

You can ask a question to paul on his site and he is pretty good about answering.

on an earlier post, Paul Jaminet said that joint pain can be caused by three things:

There are basically three kinds of arthritis:

???osteoarthritis, which I associate with nutrient deficiencies, is a loss of cartilage and lubricating fluid in the joints, or an improper calcification or ossification of the soft tissue; ???reactive arthritis, which is due to infections; and ???rheumatoid arthritis, which is an autoimmune disorder but the autoimmunity is usually caused by an infection and clearing the infection will usually clear the autoimmunity. Food toxins can also collect in the joints and cause immune reactions that produce arthritis-like joint symptoms. Foods that frequently cause allergies, such as tree nuts, may be worth eliminating as a test, as Jacqueline eliminated cashew nuts.

Since diagnosing the cause of arthritis symptoms is an art more than a science, and nutrient deficiencies are easily remedied, they???re almost always a good place to start with any joint pain and stiffness.

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/05/an-osteoarthritis-recovery-story/

I would try their diet with white rice and perhaps track your nutrients/vitamins with fitday or something, people have mentioned being low on potassium if you eat white rice..vitamin K2 is also pretty important, they mention improper calcification as a source of joint pain I believe?

If you have problems with sweet potatoes or white potatoes, they would recommend white rice....or a diet made ketogenic by eating 200 calories of carbs per day and supplementation with MCT oil or branched chain amino acids if your gut can't handle starches.

Also, I highly recommend their series on the dangers of being too carb as well as the dangers of too much fructose. it sounds like you could be too low carb. lettuce, tomato, your body uses energy to digest them so the net carb count from them is zero.

Also, they did a post on IBS and how people with IBS have up to 20% fewer bacterial species in their gut....that would also be interesting read for you.

It sounds like you have had a lot of problems before and that it's going to take a lot of work to get your gut back into good shape, so I wish you the best. Obviously I am not a doctor and good luck with your research.

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on May 15, 2013
at 03:32 PM

(not that there's anything wrong with wanting a six-pack!) I just think more people need help with their health problems than getting down to single digit body fat.

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on May 15, 2013
at 03:33 PM

see their success story on Jay by the way, for inspiration

8d3cb0be5f31c75a05f853cb3b5c245a

(1601)

on May 15, 2013
at 03:32 PM

Sure...and just one other to note: obviously with the right diet, you will lose weight, but obesity is a REALLY complex case, which might also be caused by an infection or gut dysbiosis or other problem. They advise you to take it slow - I know it's hard - but with good health (and eating the proper diet, and ensuring vitamin and mineral sufficiencies) it seems like weight loss will occur. I like their success stories better than the ones on Paleo/Primal because the people seem to have been able to make long-term changes focused on health and none on getting a six pack

6d1d2c385960f3d82d960ae3cffb3193

(94)

on May 15, 2013
at 03:09 PM

Thanks so much for all the information! I'm certainly going to look into all of this.

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