4

votes

Is there a special perspective for women in the Paleo lifestyle?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created March 15, 2011 at 3:42 PM

Recent questions and answers about the "dubious" aspects of a Paleo lifestyle prodded me to investigate how women are viewed within it. There isn't much out there.

Perhaps the way to begin to investigate it is to survey people who are participating in it.

To begin, what do you think are important aspects to being a woman of child-bearing years in living a Paleo lifestyle? What about women who are of post-childbearing age? What do you think of defining women's roles via reproductive capacity? (It's pretty much done across disciplines, but that doesn't make it legitimate.)

What aspects of Paleo-ism lifestyles are different than mainstream American/Western cultures? Other cultures?

What are some of the negatives for women living a Paleo-lifestyle? Why? How could they be minimized or eliminated?

What do women value as being important in a Paleo-lifestyle? What needs to be there to make those things happen?

Medium avatar

(12379)

on March 17, 2011
at 07:47 PM

I'm a little disappointed that this question was closed - I really felt for the most part the discussion was on-point and positive. I guess a couple of 'bad apples' really do spoil the bunch.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on March 17, 2011
at 07:46 PM

I'm a little disappointed that this question was closed - I really felt for the most part th discussion was on-point and positive. I guess a couple of 'bad apples' really do spoil the bunch

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 17, 2011
at 05:46 PM

@Aek - 3) You characterize PH as "That said, I've found the responses to most questions to be overwhelmingly juvenile, ill-informed and willfully ignorant about a wide variety of basic concepts: historical, sociological, anthropological, science, health and medicine. Sometimes it seems that all that's missing is a reel of the Flintstones." You couldn't be more wrong. There are many contributors from many perspectives that are anything but ignorant. 4) Last thing -- I don't think you are a good fit here -- let me know and I will happily delete your account.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 17, 2011
at 05:45 PM

@Aek - I have no idea what your problem is -- but your odd behavior and hysteria is not appreciated on PaleoHacks. 1) You asked a question and apparently got answers you didn't like -- tough. 2) Elizabeth is race-baiting -- but happened to pick on the majority. I won't tolerate any sort of this about any group.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on March 17, 2011
at 05:42 PM

Thanks, familygrokumentarian. Your blog certainly provides inspiration!

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 17, 2011
at 06:51 AM

Elizabeth -- where is the apology for race-baiting? I am still waiting.

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 03:56 AM

Although I will say that being able to make choices... well, it's called the illusion of choice for a reason. Throughout history, it's always been the people who refused to stick to societal norms and actually MADE their own choices that stand out as the 'greats', and women and men are equally represented in that, I feel.

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 03:54 AM

True, it is very limiting to stick to just US history for making small points. However, that is my framework of perspective - history from 100+ years ago and / or different countries doesn't impact me as much as current events in America do. It's sort of weird being Paleo but ignoring history, but I'm a walking oxymoron in that way. PH needs an instant messaging system, this really isn't the place to discuss sexism issues, but I'd like to continue this conversation all the same. =D

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 17, 2011
at 03:27 AM

Sexism doesn't hurt me. I'm ashamed of all the women that have shut down free speech about gender differences in academia because they are "offended" and think it's sexism. Remember: nature is sexist.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 17, 2011
at 03:25 AM

Well, if your entire framework for history is the modern US. What exactly are the female privileges throughout history? It's less about voting and other trivial modern luxuries than about whether or not women were able to make choices about their lives, which in most cultures they were not able. I'm not blaming men, I'm just stating facts. I like men very much and find most self-proclaimed feminists to be more of a nuisance than a help.

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 03:25 AM

I guess what I'm trying to say, while attempting to avoid being inflammatory, is that the so-called "male privilege" is just as subjective as "female privilege." Sexism hurts no matter which gender you are, and I try not to tolerate it in any form. And now, back to discussing the facts.

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 03:20 AM

1850 - Property ownership requirements are lifted, giving all white men the vote. 1870 - 15th amendment is passed, allowing all men to vote regardless of race. 1920 - 19th amendment is passed, allowing all women to vote. Just using this as an example alone, men had the vote for 70 years longer than women - a drop in the bucket in terms of equality, but assuages the argument that "men have always had the vote."

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 03:17 AM

It largely depends on how you define privilege, Melissa, and how open minded you are when viewing different examples of privilege as well. Yes, men had privileges in the past - so did women. Different privileges for different genders, and sure, there were some imbalances. But to make a blanket statement that it's a fact "men have been very privileged" without including female privilege throughout history is a bit sexist. As an example of an often misconstrued historical "fact" regarding voting rights:

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 17, 2011
at 02:59 AM

The feeling is mutual.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 17, 2011
at 02:46 AM

Just proves my theory that modernism has emasculated both men and women. If someone insinuates that women are more privileged the men get all offended? I'm sorry, but for most of the world and most of history men have been very privileged. It's nothing to be angry about or to blame men for, but it's a fact. Men are denigrated by this? How is anyone ever supposed to discuss biological or historical facts in such an environment?

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on March 17, 2011
at 01:57 AM

Ed sorry about "the slack" I misunderstood you..The link works only if you have your fb account open, bc it is a fb page. Anyway my problem was with this quotations, otherwise Diana Hsieh page looks fine..Cheers

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 01:48 AM

Patrik is not really "the keeper of the keys", he runs a community where several copies of the keys are handed out to trusted members. Whining about not being able to easily find information that is on the front page's FAQ is jejune. -- Finally, Elizabeth openly offended several males on this website. I don't care which feminist camp you came from, when several members of a community are insulted and denigrated, they have the right to complain, even if they're not female.

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 01:43 AM

"What kind of questions should I not ask here? - Avoid asking questions that are overly subjective, argumentative, or require extended discussion. This is not a discussion board nor a blog, this is a place for questions that can be answered!" It is also stated in the same FAQ that you can vote to close your own questions at 250 rep, or any question at 3000 rep. (And likewise, anyone with 10k rep can delete a closed question.) http://paleohacks.com/faq

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 01:42 AM

What kind of questions should I not ask here? - Avoid asking questions that are overly subjective, argumentative, or require extended discussion. This is not a discussion board nor a blog, this is a place for questions that can be answered! It is also stated in the same FAQ that you can close your own questions at 250 rep, or have a moderator

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on March 17, 2011
at 01:16 AM

Why, thank you. :) It's heartening to know that the lunchbox series is sparking ideas for others.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on March 17, 2011
at 12:43 AM

@Ignacio, the link you gave is broken.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on March 16, 2011
at 10:08 PM

I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE this answer! And your blog - your lunch box pictures are my inspiration for my son's daycare lunchkits - thank you for all of your efforts!!!!!

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on March 16, 2011
at 09:35 PM

@Ignacio, I was COMPLIMENTING you on your even-handed treatment of men and women. There were no "ridiculous imputations." Cheers,

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on March 16, 2011
at 09:16 PM

Patrick very well said also Elizabeth has double standards on what is "a question that is subjective or can not be answered". But since I am a white, middle class man perhaps my view is a bit biased...

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 16, 2011
at 08:22 PM

Elizabeth -- you are showing your double-standard colors and you really should apologize for race-baiting as well and don't do it again. It's fucking bullshit. I won't tolerate disparagement of ANY sex/gender, sexuality, religion, race -- that includes white guys. Don't do it again or you're gone.

0bcefaa82dc94f93ce705f86e235f335

(1591)

on March 16, 2011
at 07:58 PM

@Patrik - If you are interested, you might want to check out this article: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/faq-what-is-male-privilege/ or other writings on intersectionality. I don't think you could deny that the paleo community is overwhelmingly white, male, and middle-class-plus, and I don't see what's wrong with pointing out the homogenous nature of the movement (and on another discussion-oriented forum, talk about why more diversity might be a benefit). But I apologize for using "dude" instead of "male."

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on March 16, 2011
at 07:54 PM

A sincere tip of the hat to you, sir. A paleo dad transforming the household menu near-singlehandedly? Well played!

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on March 16, 2011
at 06:32 PM

"It takes a lot of sweat and planning to turn a ship around when you've been raised with SAD diet structures" Yes, it does! I'm the driving force behind paleo in our household and I do about 95% of the cooking.

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on March 16, 2011
at 06:19 PM

Ed the link that appears in her page is "http://www.facebook.com/the.objective.standard" and they were showing, yesterday this ridiculous view that the horrendous nuclear crisis in Japan is just "fear of anti-technology guys" Absurd, ignorant, you name it. About your comment what is it that you suggest that I said against women? Or do I have to accept that males can be insulted because we are males? No one, woman or man should be insulted that is all I said so please stop you ridiculous imputations!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on March 16, 2011
at 05:49 PM

i think the question is valuable, yet I will say that reading through the question puts me in a bit of a 'fog'. there's a lot of questions within this question. i know they all kinda of relate, but sheesh. a bit dizzying. funny too.. given the nature of the question itself. they say (you know.. "they") that women can focus on many things at once while most men have to focus on one or maybe two things at a time. kinda ironic or something. anyway. carry on...

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on March 16, 2011
at 05:21 PM

@Ignacio, I could not find the blog you referenced. Perhaps you could provide a link. Diana Hsieh's blog is from an Objectivist + Paleo perspective. Given your posts here, it does not surprise me that you would have disagreements with an Objectivist blog. It's good that you did not cut her any slack just because she's a woman. Cheers,

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on March 16, 2011
at 04:29 PM

I totally agree Mitschu I do not think any group likes to be insulted, whether male or women, white or otherwise...

61b801de5dc345b557cd4623d4a4f26b

(2682)

on March 16, 2011
at 03:42 PM

I agree; men and women are different and have different needs. It's valid to acknowledge that different genders probably need different nutrients or at least different levels. Especially depending on what stage of life an individual is in.

61b801de5dc345b557cd4623d4a4f26b

(2682)

on March 16, 2011
at 03:37 PM

I love your point of view...so positive and uplifting!

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on March 16, 2011
at 03:11 PM

Diana Hsieh was showing in his page an absurd blog, that says that the huge nuclear crsis in Japan is "the meltdown of fearmongers" when the entire Tokyo population is feeling threatened by radiation. They claim that "this is the fear of anti-technology guys"...I do not think she knows what she is talking about, not atall....

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 16, 2011
at 02:57 PM

Please let me know your deductive reasoning, it makes absolutely no sense. In many cultures women do the bulk of the work and are treated like trash.

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on March 16, 2011
at 02:32 PM

gilliebean I agree with you that this is interesting to discuss, actually men also care about the otherś perception. Perhaps there should be a separate section of paleohacks on lifestyle, community, arqueology, gender, environment, those issues different from diet and fitness so that those who are only focused on diet do not feel irritated about these broader questions...

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 16, 2011
at 08:15 AM

In terms of, well, terminology, you nailed it on the head there Patrik. Dude is one of those pseudo-insulting terms used to label men, equally on par with "chick." Sort of like how women don't like being called bitches, it might shock the female audience out there to discover we have a similar aversion to being called "assholes."

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 16, 2011
at 06:45 AM

I like your perspective. Yes, women and men are different. Some of it is biological, most of it is sociological. It's confusing the two that is old-fashioned, archaic, and often misandry / misogyny.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 16, 2011
at 06:40 AM

@Elizabeth -- watch it with "We need a less dude-centric privileged white vibe here." --- I don't think you would find it acceptable if someone swapped chick for dude and black for white.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 16, 2011
at 06:35 AM

@Travis Culp -- your answer sounds waaay too "Noble Savage"-y to hold much water...

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 16, 2011
at 05:40 AM

@Elizabeth - It amuses me how you describe the male reaction to being left out of a context as "the privileged class ... [getting] angry and defensive if something specifically excludes them." I'm sure if it were women getting left out, it'd be "the privileged class exerting their alpha power to single out and exclude us." @Aek - you received several good responses to your question; choosing to focus on the negative and threatening to leave the site is your prerogative. However, I doubt so many people would have responded if it were truly an "every person for themselves." endeavor.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on March 16, 2011
at 05:05 AM

How do I know it? Has deductive reasoning been branded the latest "neolithic agent of disease" to avoid?

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on March 16, 2011
at 04:01 AM

aek I up-voted your question because I think it is interesting and shows broad interests. Several people here dislike questions that are not very specific nor diet-oriented, but anyway yours is a difficult question, which makes it interesting. We need people like you to make room for interesting discussions, so I hope you stay! And Elizabeth I do not think there is an issue of "privileged class" here but rather different, even opposing views on what is an interesting question...

A89f9751a97c3082802dc0bcbe4e9208

(13978)

on March 16, 2011
at 03:58 AM

I think it's valuable to discuss. Women are often quite concerned with perception and that concern can affect our ability to execute our plans; however logical they may be. I'm not sure men (being of a different gender and hormonal balance) appreciate this point. So I think it's a valid question and am looking forward to the discussion.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 16, 2011
at 03:27 AM

This question is sooooooo borderline.... *grumble *grumble

0bcefaa82dc94f93ce705f86e235f335

(1591)

on March 16, 2011
at 03:26 AM

@aek - Also remember that the privileged class will almost always get angry and defensive if something specifically excludes them - they have always been the focus of every discussion, every privilege, every performance. It's threatening not to be the center of everything for once.

0bcefaa82dc94f93ce705f86e235f335

(1591)

on March 16, 2011
at 03:24 AM

@aek - Please stick around. We need a less dude-centric privileged white vibe here. And remember that the assholes are always the loudest.

F1cd291cf9ba1ebd9a9db21d3dd09735

(436)

on March 16, 2011
at 02:42 AM

Thanks, Melissa. I do have a blog, but as it's attracted only spammer commenters, I would still be talking to myself. Thanks, Ed, but I think I am getting the drift of this place. I'll just shut the ef up and move on.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 16, 2011
at 01:28 AM

Um, women are different from men. I like it that way :) We do have some special nutritional needs because like our bodies get some babbies in them.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on March 16, 2011
at 01:22 AM

Hi aek, I speak for myself, not anyone else here at PaleoHacks. It's obvious that you fit in better than you think. You've been very actively involved here so far, with far more upvotes than downvotes. Your question did not offend me whatsoever, and I'm sorry if my answer was a bit strongly worded. PaleoHacks is a community, but the meaning of "community" in this context must be answered by each member. If you continue to participate, you will encounter a diverse collection of viewpoints and personalities, some who will no doubt mesh very well with you.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 16, 2011
at 01:18 AM

Why don't you start a blog? This is a perfect post for a blog. People treat this place like a blog sometimes when it isn't and that leads to bad answers.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 16, 2011
at 01:16 AM

Lol, how on earth do you know that? That's pretty ground breaking if you do and I have some anthropologists who would like to talk to you.

74f5d2ff6567edd456d31dfb9b92af61

(5227)

on March 16, 2011
at 01:11 AM

I <3 you, Melissa!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 16, 2011
at 01:03 AM

Well said Ms. Kaz!

Medium avatar

(39821)

on March 16, 2011
at 12:33 AM

That's an interesting straw-woman there; I'm merely suggesting that *for the most part* women were valued more during the paleolithic than most of the neolithic until fairly recently (in civilized nations).

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 16, 2011
at 12:22 AM

Um, read a little about the Melansians. Women are considered very dirty in that culture and are heavily marginalized. I'd rather be here typing this than be a hunter-gatherer any day as a woman. The Efe are rather nice to their women though.

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on March 16, 2011
at 12:16 AM

+1! Even though it's not politically correct to say, it's a reality that women are by and large the menu-planners, grocery-shoppers, and chefs for their families across America. Dudes are increasingly participating in these areas, for sure! (And I'm thankful for that, woohoo!) But...I do think that it's currently easier for a family where a mother goes paleo first to eventually entirely convert than it is for a family where the dad (usually not the one cooking and shopping) goes paleo first.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on March 15, 2011
at 11:42 PM

I'm not talking about occasional violence, I'm talking about the wholesale reduction of a gender to chattel status. The Hadza occasionally beat their women too, that's not the point.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 15, 2011
at 08:40 PM

If you read Nisa, which is about a San woman, she describes being beaten by her husband. There are many documented instances of rape and beating of women in hunter-gatherer cultures. Unfortunately there is no conclusive fossil evidence, except for one dig I know of that showed women and children were shot by arrow point blank and there are no men with similar wounds. Possibly a raid though.

Fe9564da32d84d7213ef2a203f97de48

(279)

on March 15, 2011
at 08:19 PM

I don't understand the point of this question. Why try to invent difference when there is none? Paleo diet/lifestyle is optimal way for HUMANS to live.

39a1a0bc7855c084ac59df60fdf9c0dd

(1505)

on March 15, 2011
at 07:16 PM

I am not being critical when I say that I just don't understand this question and others like it. Paleo - to me, anyway - is all about eating food that is good for you with a focus on better health and ancillary benefits. Questions about the role of women, shaving armpits, how often to have sex, etc., seem to me like taking things to a far, far extreme. Maybe we should all stop using computers, shaving our faces, and start eating grubs and termites. – Lee 0 secs ago

39a1a0bc7855c084ac59df60fdf9c0dd

(1505)

on March 15, 2011
at 07:15 PM

I am not being critical when I say that I just don't understand this question and others like it. Paleo - to me, anyway - is all about eating food that is good for you with a focus on better health and ancillary benefits. Questions about the role of women, shaving armpits, how often to have sex, etc. Maybe we should all stop using computers, shaving our faces, and start eating grubs and termites.

F1cd291cf9ba1ebd9a9db21d3dd09735

(436)

on March 15, 2011
at 04:48 PM

Agree there, but I'm asking people who self-identify as participating in a Paleo lifestyle to answer. ;)

F1cd291cf9ba1ebd9a9db21d3dd09735

(436)

on March 15, 2011
at 04:47 PM

Interesting. Do you have links to references for these cultures? How does the historical framework apply to today's Paleo lifestyle? You infer some stereotyping by today's Paleo-ers, with which I agree. Is it important to break through stereotyping? What are characteristics of optimal women's roles in modern Paleo-ism, if there is such a thing?

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on March 15, 2011
at 04:25 PM

How women are perceived? - I am not brave enough to answer this aek

F1cd291cf9ba1ebd9a9db21d3dd09735

(436)

on March 15, 2011
at 04:08 PM

Thanks for your comments. @imanomnivore:Societal roles are integrated with health. Paleo as a health improvement tool is different than a lifestyle. How do you see it as a tool? @DudleyP: There are perceived gender differences. This does not connote discrimination. I am interested in learning what the perceptions are.

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on March 15, 2011
at 04:03 PM

why discriminate?

154d799847153f5589f99496a9bdbb71

(992)

on March 15, 2011
at 03:56 PM

Did I miss something? I thought paleo was a tool to improve your health. What does it have to do with women's role in society?

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13 Answers

12
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 16, 2011
at 01:33 AM

This has been quite interesting and I'll definitely do a blog post on this topic. There are definitely huge issues, like the portrayal of women and paleo in the media.

There is sadly still some biological denialism here- women and men are VERY different. We have different nutritional needs, not radically different, but still different. Our bodies can lactate and produce children. Recognizing this isn't misandrist or misogynistic.

There are also some incorrect ideas floating around about the status of women in the paleolithic, which we really don't know much about. Hunter-gatherer cultures are diverse and some treat women like crap and others treat them quite well.

61b801de5dc345b557cd4623d4a4f26b

(2682)

on March 16, 2011
at 03:42 PM

I agree; men and women are different and have different needs. It's valid to acknowledge that different genders probably need different nutrients or at least different levels. Especially depending on what stage of life an individual is in.

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 16, 2011
at 06:45 AM

I like your perspective. Yes, women and men are different. Some of it is biological, most of it is sociological. It's confusing the two that is old-fashioned, archaic, and often misandry / misogyny.

8
D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on March 16, 2011
at 12:13 AM

I think that paleo ladies are unbelievable workhorses - in the kitchen, while grocery sourcing/shopping, and while managing to work in quality exercise! Whenever I stumble across a new paleo lady's blog, I'm usually blown away by the creativity, the versatility, the resourcefulness employed to keep friends and family, husbands and children not just sated, but genuinely satisfied and delighted to be eating paleo meals.

It takes a lot of sweat and planning to turn a ship around when you've been raised with SAD diet structures, and even more sweat and planning when you're catering to many different palates within your own household - setting aside for the moment that paleo moms are generally the primary deciders of which hills are worth dying on over school cupcake parties, grandparents and relatives offering treats, holiday celebrations, and cultural monuments to sugar like Halloween and Easter, etc.!

What is most heartening to me about these awesome paleo women is that many have/are/will go on to raise paleo kids to adulthood - and these kids (but especially the girls - more paleo female power!) in turn will in all likelihood be the core food and cooking decision makers within their own households one day. Just think of the precedent set by these pioneering current and future paleo mothers and how their decisions could reverberate for generations to come.

Whether they currently are widely seen this way is a matter of personal opinion which differs - even on PaleoHacks, but I think that paleo women should be heralded as equal partners in the paleo community and all-around rock stars to boot!

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on March 16, 2011
at 06:32 PM

"It takes a lot of sweat and planning to turn a ship around when you've been raised with SAD diet structures" Yes, it does! I'm the driving force behind paleo in our household and I do about 95% of the cooking.

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on March 16, 2011
at 07:54 PM

A sincere tip of the hat to you, sir. A paleo dad transforming the household menu near-singlehandedly? Well played!

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on March 17, 2011
at 05:42 PM

Thanks, familygrokumentarian. Your blog certainly provides inspiration!

Medium avatar

(12379)

on March 16, 2011
at 10:08 PM

I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE this answer! And your blog - your lunch box pictures are my inspiration for my son's daycare lunchkits - thank you for all of your efforts!!!!!

61b801de5dc345b557cd4623d4a4f26b

(2682)

on March 16, 2011
at 03:37 PM

I love your point of view...so positive and uplifting!

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on March 17, 2011
at 01:16 AM

Why, thank you. :) It's heartening to know that the lunchbox series is sparking ideas for others.

6
A89f9751a97c3082802dc0bcbe4e9208

(13978)

on March 16, 2011
at 04:22 AM

What do you think are important aspects to being a woman of child-bearing years in living a Paleo lifestyle? Most men in the paleo-sphere tend focus on workout nutrition, leaning-out nutrition or just getting balanced hormonally. But a woman of child-bearing age (like me!) is interested in creating a body (by diet) that is well-prepared to support the creation of a new life! Chris Masterjohn is the only blogger that I've seen to have posted anything about pre- or post-conception nutrition - and it was on a WAPF blog. Although, I just remembered, Chris Kresser has a new seminar called "Growing A Heathy Baby." Also cool... Robb Wolf has mentioned that it's important to discuss and learn about, but hasn't offered much in the way of advice. The best resource I've found is Weston Price's book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, which Masterjohn's post is basically summarizing. I would like to see more paleo doctors attacking this. If we can get women well-nourished before conception, we'll start to see societal benefits!

What about women who are of post-childbearing age? I think once women are post-childbearing age, nutrition and lifestyle goals become similar to a man of that age - health and longevity.

What do you think of defining women's roles via reproductive capacity? I would like you to explain what you mean here. Are you talking about 'as opposed to men' or are you talking about 'as opposed to each other'?

What aspects of Paleo-ism lifestyles are different than mainstream American/Western cultures? Other cultures? As a woman, my desire to create a proper baby-making body is counter-cultural because it is the opposite of selfish. It is "for my baby" even before I've conceived. From Weston Price's book, we see that many cultures practiced specific nutrition for women up to six (6) months before conception! Talk about putting focus on reproduction and not our own desires!

What are some of the negatives for women living a Paleo-lifestyle? Why? How could they be minimized or eliminated? The only negatives that I can come up with are simply typical, across-the-board negatives (peer confusion, peer pressure, refined carb and sugar temptation, tweeking carb needs). I can't think of any negatives that are female-specific, other than the ones that Melissa has mentioned (ie. because we're women, we're left out of sensationalist news stories).

What do women value as being important in a Paleo-lifestyle? What needs to be there to make those things happen? I value the ease of access of good quality meats and offal - grass-fed and pastured. I value the limited carbon footprint of this access. I value the ease of access of other foods (veggies, nuts, seeds, and berries) that are grown locally, organically, and in-season. I value the opportunity to meet with other women who are feeding a family and share ideas about how to continue to transition from the mundane (conventional wisdom) to the paleo lifestyle.

6
Medium avatar

on March 15, 2011
at 04:28 PM

I think the subjugation of women is a neolithic development. Certainly females of nearly all animal species have lives that are quite a bit more difficult than the males simply as a result of having to nourish offspring during and after gestation. They also usually invest resources in their protection of the offspring for some period of time. The phenomenon of women being thought of as chattel is, in my opinion, quite recent and the result of the rise in wealth in general that is concomitant with a move toward agriculture.

Cultures without any real wealth markers such as the Hadza are thus free of this situation. Hadza women choose their husbands in stark contrast to the parental influence exerted in the various pastoralist groups that surround them. The idea that parents would force two incompatible people together is alien to them. They will voice disapproval if the man is a drunk etc. as would be expected, but even then that sentiment can be overridden by the children.

Additionally, older Hadza women (40-60) actually bring more kcals into camp than any other age-sex group, mostly as a result of digging for tubers. I think a lot of folks in the paleo community have an unrealistic view of how HG or paleolithic societies functioned where everyone either sat around eating meat or was out hunting for it, but the fact is that there would have almost certainly been a sexual division of labor coupled with various types of food sharing. Both contributions are time-consuming and equally essential to the health of the individuals as well as the societies themselves.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 16, 2011
at 01:16 AM

Lol, how on earth do you know that? That's pretty ground breaking if you do and I have some anthropologists who would like to talk to you.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on March 16, 2011
at 05:05 AM

How do I know it? Has deductive reasoning been branded the latest "neolithic agent of disease" to avoid?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on March 15, 2011
at 11:42 PM

I'm not talking about occasional violence, I'm talking about the wholesale reduction of a gender to chattel status. The Hadza occasionally beat their women too, that's not the point.

F1cd291cf9ba1ebd9a9db21d3dd09735

(436)

on March 15, 2011
at 04:47 PM

Interesting. Do you have links to references for these cultures? How does the historical framework apply to today's Paleo lifestyle? You infer some stereotyping by today's Paleo-ers, with which I agree. Is it important to break through stereotyping? What are characteristics of optimal women's roles in modern Paleo-ism, if there is such a thing?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 15, 2011
at 08:40 PM

If you read Nisa, which is about a San woman, she describes being beaten by her husband. There are many documented instances of rape and beating of women in hunter-gatherer cultures. Unfortunately there is no conclusive fossil evidence, except for one dig I know of that showed women and children were shot by arrow point blank and there are no men with similar wounds. Possibly a raid though.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on March 16, 2011
at 12:33 AM

That's an interesting straw-woman there; I'm merely suggesting that *for the most part* women were valued more during the paleolithic than most of the neolithic until fairly recently (in civilized nations).

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 16, 2011
at 12:22 AM

Um, read a little about the Melansians. Women are considered very dirty in that culture and are heavily marginalized. I'd rather be here typing this than be a hunter-gatherer any day as a woman. The Efe are rather nice to their women though.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 16, 2011
at 02:57 PM

Please let me know your deductive reasoning, it makes absolutely no sense. In many cultures women do the bulk of the work and are treated like trash.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 16, 2011
at 06:35 AM

@Travis Culp -- your answer sounds waaay too "Noble Savage"-y to hold much water...

5
2f931662684a7747be36255c8b486228

(1049)

on March 15, 2011
at 10:31 PM

I really gave up on worrying about how people "view me" long ago.

I have no doubt that the idea of a woman devouring blood-laden raw beef, consuming lots of fats and brushing her teeth or swishing with coconut oil would be quite shocking to most so-called "men".

I think the same image might be more "appetizing" when seen in a man though, just as belching and scratching the genitals seems to be a socially acceptable act for men.

Ignorance is everywhere...and it is very frustrating.

Especially when you dine out and see that people are convinced about their old ideas. I can see them wince when I happily consume fat and more fat and red meat, thinking poor me that I never picked up on this new science of eating whole grains and fiber (regardless of the fact that I'm thin as a rail and healthy).

And you realize there is no point in explaining the goodness you are doing for your health.

I haven't even found an effective way of explaining it to my husband. After all, if it hasn't sunk in, I haven't explained it enough or in the right language.

How about how a Paleo woman views another Paleo woman?

With a lot of respect.

There is of work involved in the kitchen, not to mention the research, and strict Paleo leaves no room for laziness.

You have to absolutely re-learn everything.

I'm know some men out there are doing the same thing, but let's admit it, today it is still mostly the women who are shopping and cooking for the family isn't it? It's one thing to throw a meal together for one person.. quite another to cook for the entire family to satisfy everyones taste buds.

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on March 16, 2011
at 12:16 AM

+1! Even though it's not politically correct to say, it's a reality that women are by and large the menu-planners, grocery-shoppers, and chefs for their families across America. Dudes are increasingly participating in these areas, for sure! (And I'm thankful for that, woohoo!) But...I do think that it's currently easier for a family where a mother goes paleo first to eventually entirely convert than it is for a family where the dad (usually not the one cooking and shopping) goes paleo first.

5
6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on March 15, 2011
at 08:29 PM

I know group identity is important to some here, and I may get in trouble for saying this, but to me it doesn't mean squat.

For me, paleo is about n=1. Find the best information from whatever source (gender, ethnicity or country of origin doesn't matter) and apply it to yourself, as an individual. If I can help other individuals by passing on some of my meager knowledge, that's great too.

The internet smashes hierarchies and supplies an abundance of UN-conventional wisdom. When I read a great blog entry by Melissa, Diana Hsieh or Karen De Coster, guess what?--It doesn't matter what the gender of the author is. What matters is that they know what they're talking about and can express themselves well. If they discuss a topic that doesn't apply to me or I don't find interesting, I can move on to the next entry--problem solved.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on March 16, 2011
at 05:21 PM

@Ignacio, I could not find the blog you referenced. Perhaps you could provide a link. Diana Hsieh's blog is from an Objectivist + Paleo perspective. Given your posts here, it does not surprise me that you would have disagreements with an Objectivist blog. It's good that you did not cut her any slack just because she's a woman. Cheers,

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on March 16, 2011
at 03:11 PM

Diana Hsieh was showing in his page an absurd blog, that says that the huge nuclear crsis in Japan is "the meltdown of fearmongers" when the entire Tokyo population is feeling threatened by radiation. They claim that "this is the fear of anti-technology guys"...I do not think she knows what she is talking about, not atall....

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on March 16, 2011
at 06:19 PM

Ed the link that appears in her page is "http://www.facebook.com/the.objective.standard" and they were showing, yesterday this ridiculous view that the horrendous nuclear crisis in Japan is just "fear of anti-technology guys" Absurd, ignorant, you name it. About your comment what is it that you suggest that I said against women? Or do I have to accept that males can be insulted because we are males? No one, woman or man should be insulted that is all I said so please stop you ridiculous imputations!

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on March 17, 2011
at 12:43 AM

@Ignacio, the link you gave is broken.

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on March 17, 2011
at 01:57 AM

Ed sorry about "the slack" I misunderstood you..The link works only if you have your fb account open, bc it is a fb page. Anyway my problem was with this quotations, otherwise Diana Hsieh page looks fine..Cheers

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on March 16, 2011
at 09:35 PM

@Ignacio, I was COMPLIMENTING you on your even-handed treatment of men and women. There were no "ridiculous imputations." Cheers,

4
61b801de5dc345b557cd4623d4a4f26b

(2682)

on March 16, 2011
at 05:42 PM

Paleo in a nutshell, for me, is trying to be as healthy as I can be. As a woman, that might mean having different needs than it would for a man. But I don't see following the paleo diet as being any different from any other diet in the respect that women are going to require different things than men, especially if having kids comes into play.

Those who have mentioned that women are primarily responsible for meals stood out to me. I do most of the cooking and I've found it difficult to stick to my paleo-ish ways while still respecting my husband's non-paleo ways. I don't have the right to tell him he can't have pasta (for example); then again, as the one who cooks dinner, I don't believe in cooking more than one meal in one night b/c someone doesn't like what's on the menu. So my current quandary is whether to avoid an argument over why I never cook pasta, or avoid an argument over why he can't cook his own pasta if he wants it (or maybe argue both things in the same argument, lol).

One thing about the paleo diet that I have personally experienced as being a woman's issue is trying to better my health with respect to menses. My "symptoms," if you will, have become increasingly difficult to manage in the last couple years (I'm 27). After my ob/gyn told me to just take more Advil, I decided CW was not the way to go.

I haven't decided whether or not kids will be a factor for me, but part of the reason I want to be in prime condition is just in case I do decide to have children: so they can develop in the best environment I can provide, and so that I can be an example of what a healthy person is.

4
52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

on March 16, 2011
at 06:18 AM

Recent questions and answers about the "dubious" aspects of a Paleo lifestyle prodded me to investigate how women are viewed within it. There isn't much out there.

It would be enlightening to know what you consider to be the "dubious" aspects of living Paleo are. It sounds as if you are coming in with a bit of a vague bias, and looking for people to disprove it.

The question seems very similar in nature to the article http://paleohacks.com/questions/579/more-men-than-women-are-paleo, which discusses why there appears to be a larger focus on men in the Paleo lifestyle - primarily, because more men follow it faithfully. It might be worth a read, if you have the time and inclination.

Perhaps the way to begin to investigate it is to survey people who are participating in it.

Perhaps. But you will receive a larger sampling of males for the aforementioned reasons.

To begin, what do you think are important aspects to being a woman of child-bearing years in living a Paleo lifestyle? What about women who are of post-childbearing age? What do you think of defining women's roles via reproductive capacity? (It's pretty much done across disciplines, but that doesn't make it legitimate.)

First, Paleolithic living is not exactly "caveman / cavewoman" - it's a lifestyle choice primarily focused on maintaining your health, not on establishing or maintaining gender roles. Frankly, people have differing opinions on gender establishment, and that won't really change solely because of their living Paleo or not.

Important aspects to being a woman of child-bearing age in Paleo? Maintaining and sustaining your health, obviously, with a focus on being a sound vessel for a child to pass through (unless your desire is to not have children, in which case:)

Important aspects to being a woman of post-bearing age / do not wish to have children? Again, maintaining and sustaining your health. Being Paleo shouldn't change your priorities, merely make obtaining the goal of healthy living easier.

What aspects of Paleo-ism lifestyles are different than mainstream American/Western cultures? Other cultures?

Healthy living through intelligent and healthful choices, rather than ridiculous speed diets and instant exercise regimens. That still remains the primary focus of Paleo. If you are asking about gender roles in Paleo, then I still stand by my prior statement, that reestablishing gender roles is not a goal of Paleo.

What are some of the negatives for women living a Paleo-lifestyle? Why? How could they be minimized or eliminated?

Some people discover allergies and intolerancies much later in life than others, and any change in diet or activity can reveal these issues. For women specifically, I'd say that swapping your diet during pregnancy could lead to unwanted complications, and should be avoided or practiced responsibly. Some women also report that their periods change, and that they fluctuate in weight loss and gain during hormonal peaks after switching to Paleo. Being mature and patient are key requirements to minimizing the impact that these changes might have on your body.

What do women value as being important in a Paleo-lifestyle? What needs to be there to make those things happen?

Several women have already fielded this question in other comments / answers, so I'll just close with a reminder: Making a Paleo lifestyle work for you is your own responsibility. The things that need to be there to make your lifestyle work out for you are entirely internal. Patience, maturity, moderation, and commitment.

4
74f5d2ff6567edd456d31dfb9b92af61

(5227)

on March 15, 2011
at 10:31 PM

I'm not Paleo to be viewed. I'm here to optimize my health.

Worrying about how a bunch of men and women regard me is fruitless and undermines all the good that Paleo has done for me and my health. Honestly, all the people I've met have either liked me or disliked me because of who I am, not because they cared about how I ate or, God forbid, their way of eating dictate that they dislike me.

Let go of your obsession with oppression; dredging up negative emotions when there are none places blame and harbors needless animosity.

74f5d2ff6567edd456d31dfb9b92af61

(5227)

on March 16, 2011
at 01:11 AM

I <3 you, Melissa!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 17, 2011
at 02:59 AM

The feeling is mutual.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on March 16, 2011
at 01:03 AM

Well said Ms. Kaz!

3
Ef9f83cb4e1826261a44c173f733789e

on March 15, 2011
at 04:18 PM

I don't think paleo has become popular enough yet for mainstream culture to form any generalizations about anyone.

F1cd291cf9ba1ebd9a9db21d3dd09735

(436)

on March 15, 2011
at 04:48 PM

Agree there, but I'm asking people who self-identify as participating in a Paleo lifestyle to answer. ;)

2
Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

on March 16, 2011
at 02:37 AM

I do not think as of now that many people can say what the modern "paleo lifestyles" is providing it ever exists as such. I understand that "modern paleo" so far includes a number of people with many things in common regarding diet, several things in common regarding fitness and more or less open minded. which means that comparing "modern paleo" women status to the one enjoyed by women at hunter gatherer societies is extremely far-fetched. Besides there was huge variation in terms of women status in HG societies. As of modern paleos today, there will also be great variations in attitudes, social standing, sexual preferences, you name it...It is wide open....Now in terms of broader discussions, like the one you started some people likes them ( I do) some people do not, you know...Perhaps there should be a section (separated from diet and fitness) that deals mostly with these broader questions.

1
F1cd291cf9ba1ebd9a9db21d3dd09735

(436)

on March 16, 2011
at 12:15 AM

Hunter gatherer societies/cultures involved communal ways of living. The members of those cultures lived interdependently, and as Melissa and Travis have described via some interesting examples, some roles were gender specific.

Much of PaleoHacks addresses a Paleo lifestyle. To that end I thought it would be interesting to query people who self identify with this to discuss perceptions of women and women's roles in living a modern Paleo lifestyle.

So far, the responses seem to be that it's an every person for himself/herself endeavor. Some people believe that it's a health tool, and others of you describe it as a disciplined form of diet. It seems to be very strength/primal fitness oriented with a high emphasis on youth in appearance and performance.

Am I accurate in that there isn't any sort of community that people want or actually participate in?

I am getting an angry, insulted, disgusted vibe, and I guess at this point, I'm sorry I asked the question. I'm also questioning my own participation on PaleoHacks.

I'll investigate whether I can delete the question. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

But the answers have been enlightening and have told me that I am not a good fit here.

0bcefaa82dc94f93ce705f86e235f335

(1591)

on March 16, 2011
at 03:26 AM

@aek - Also remember that the privileged class will almost always get angry and defensive if something specifically excludes them - they have always been the focus of every discussion, every privilege, every performance. It's threatening not to be the center of everything for once.

F1cd291cf9ba1ebd9a9db21d3dd09735

(436)

on March 16, 2011
at 02:42 AM

Thanks, Melissa. I do have a blog, but as it's attracted only spammer commenters, I would still be talking to myself. Thanks, Ed, but I think I am getting the drift of this place. I'll just shut the ef up and move on.

0bcefaa82dc94f93ce705f86e235f335

(1591)

on March 16, 2011
at 03:24 AM

@aek - Please stick around. We need a less dude-centric privileged white vibe here. And remember that the assholes are always the loudest.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 16, 2011
at 01:18 AM

Why don't you start a blog? This is a perfect post for a blog. People treat this place like a blog sometimes when it isn't and that leads to bad answers.

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 16, 2011
at 08:15 AM

In terms of, well, terminology, you nailed it on the head there Patrik. Dude is one of those pseudo-insulting terms used to label men, equally on par with "chick." Sort of like how women don't like being called bitches, it might shock the female audience out there to discover we have a similar aversion to being called "assholes."

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 16, 2011
at 06:40 AM

@Elizabeth -- watch it with "We need a less dude-centric privileged white vibe here." --- I don't think you would find it acceptable if someone swapped chick for dude and black for white.

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on March 16, 2011
at 04:01 AM

aek I up-voted your question because I think it is interesting and shows broad interests. Several people here dislike questions that are not very specific nor diet-oriented, but anyway yours is a difficult question, which makes it interesting. We need people like you to make room for interesting discussions, so I hope you stay! And Elizabeth I do not think there is an issue of "privileged class" here but rather different, even opposing views on what is an interesting question...

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 16, 2011
at 05:40 AM

@Elizabeth - It amuses me how you describe the male reaction to being left out of a context as "the privileged class ... [getting] angry and defensive if something specifically excludes them." I'm sure if it were women getting left out, it'd be "the privileged class exerting their alpha power to single out and exclude us." @Aek - you received several good responses to your question; choosing to focus on the negative and threatening to leave the site is your prerogative. However, I doubt so many people would have responded if it were truly an "every person for themselves." endeavor.

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on March 16, 2011
at 09:16 PM

Patrick very well said also Elizabeth has double standards on what is "a question that is subjective or can not be answered". But since I am a white, middle class man perhaps my view is a bit biased...

Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

(3524)

on March 16, 2011
at 04:29 PM

I totally agree Mitschu I do not think any group likes to be insulted, whether male or women, white or otherwise...

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on March 16, 2011
at 01:22 AM

Hi aek, I speak for myself, not anyone else here at PaleoHacks. It's obvious that you fit in better than you think. You've been very actively involved here so far, with far more upvotes than downvotes. Your question did not offend me whatsoever, and I'm sorry if my answer was a bit strongly worded. PaleoHacks is a community, but the meaning of "community" in this context must be answered by each member. If you continue to participate, you will encounter a diverse collection of viewpoints and personalities, some who will no doubt mesh very well with you.

0bcefaa82dc94f93ce705f86e235f335

(1591)

on March 16, 2011
at 07:58 PM

@Patrik - If you are interested, you might want to check out this article: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/faq-what-is-male-privilege/ or other writings on intersectionality. I don't think you could deny that the paleo community is overwhelmingly white, male, and middle-class-plus, and I don't see what's wrong with pointing out the homogenous nature of the movement (and on another discussion-oriented forum, talk about why more diversity might be a benefit). But I apologize for using "dude" instead of "male."

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 16, 2011
at 08:22 PM

Elizabeth -- you are showing your double-standard colors and you really should apologize for race-baiting as well and don't do it again. It's fucking bullshit. I won't tolerate disparagement of ANY sex/gender, sexuality, religion, race -- that includes white guys. Don't do it again or you're gone.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 17, 2011
at 06:51 AM

Elizabeth -- where is the apology for race-baiting? I am still waiting.

-4
4d74976a0546e8a5372342dbd62d3182

on March 16, 2011
at 10:45 PM

No, Patrick, not very well said at all. You conflate description with disparagement. Elizabeth has disparaged no one, and she apologized for using a word you did not like. Indeed, the backhanded "compliments" assigning women to that of cook, cleaner and shopper above are much more disparaging - and widely accepted here.

There is stereotyping galore on this site by many commenters, and there are so many so enmeshed in it that you can't see it for what it is: lame, discriminatory, unenlightened and ill-informed.

And as to your "grumbling" about my question, two points:

Your site is clearly labeled to include a object of discussing a "Paleo lifestyle". Lifestyle includes society and roles of members, be they work, social, familial, etc. So as far as I am able to perceive, my question was wholly appropriate for this site.

And two: I investigated withdrawing the question and I was unable to do it. You, however, are the keeper of the keys to your kingdom. Delete the question if it so worries you. You are welcome to delete every single thing that I posted here in any and every format.

That said, I've found the responses to most questions to be overwhelmingly juvenile, ill-informed and willfully ignorant about a wide variety of basic concepts: historical, sociological, anthropological, science, health and medicine. Sometimes it seems that all that's missing is a reel of the Flintstones.

I came here on the recommendation of Kurt Harris. I leave after a month plus long effort at reading, observing and participating in good faith.

I'm not sure what you're "hacking", but I'm hacking up some foul stuff and need fresh air.

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 03:54 AM

True, it is very limiting to stick to just US history for making small points. However, that is my framework of perspective - history from 100+ years ago and / or different countries doesn't impact me as much as current events in America do. It's sort of weird being Paleo but ignoring history, but I'm a walking oxymoron in that way. PH needs an instant messaging system, this really isn't the place to discuss sexism issues, but I'd like to continue this conversation all the same. =D

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 01:48 AM

Patrik is not really "the keeper of the keys", he runs a community where several copies of the keys are handed out to trusted members. Whining about not being able to easily find information that is on the front page's FAQ is jejune. -- Finally, Elizabeth openly offended several males on this website. I don't care which feminist camp you came from, when several members of a community are insulted and denigrated, they have the right to complain, even if they're not female.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 17, 2011
at 05:45 PM

@Aek - I have no idea what your problem is -- but your odd behavior and hysteria is not appreciated on PaleoHacks. 1) You asked a question and apparently got answers you didn't like -- tough. 2) Elizabeth is race-baiting -- but happened to pick on the majority. I won't tolerate any sort of this about any group.

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 03:20 AM

1850 - Property ownership requirements are lifted, giving all white men the vote. 1870 - 15th amendment is passed, allowing all men to vote regardless of race. 1920 - 19th amendment is passed, allowing all women to vote. Just using this as an example alone, men had the vote for 70 years longer than women - a drop in the bucket in terms of equality, but assuages the argument that "men have always had the vote."

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 03:25 AM

I guess what I'm trying to say, while attempting to avoid being inflammatory, is that the so-called "male privilege" is just as subjective as "female privilege." Sexism hurts no matter which gender you are, and I try not to tolerate it in any form. And now, back to discussing the facts.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 17, 2011
at 03:25 AM

Well, if your entire framework for history is the modern US. What exactly are the female privileges throughout history? It's less about voting and other trivial modern luxuries than about whether or not women were able to make choices about their lives, which in most cultures they were not able. I'm not blaming men, I'm just stating facts. I like men very much and find most self-proclaimed feminists to be more of a nuisance than a help.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 17, 2011
at 02:46 AM

Just proves my theory that modernism has emasculated both men and women. If someone insinuates that women are more privileged the men get all offended? I'm sorry, but for most of the world and most of history men have been very privileged. It's nothing to be angry about or to blame men for, but it's a fact. Men are denigrated by this? How is anyone ever supposed to discuss biological or historical facts in such an environment?

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 01:42 AM

What kind of questions should I not ask here? - Avoid asking questions that are overly subjective, argumentative, or require extended discussion. This is not a discussion board nor a blog, this is a place for questions that can be answered! It is also stated in the same FAQ that you can close your own questions at 250 rep, or have a moderator

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 03:17 AM

It largely depends on how you define privilege, Melissa, and how open minded you are when viewing different examples of privilege as well. Yes, men had privileges in the past - so did women. Different privileges for different genders, and sure, there were some imbalances. But to make a blanket statement that it's a fact "men have been very privileged" without including female privilege throughout history is a bit sexist. As an example of an often misconstrued historical "fact" regarding voting rights:

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 17, 2011
at 03:27 AM

Sexism doesn't hurt me. I'm ashamed of all the women that have shut down free speech about gender differences in academia because they are "offended" and think it's sexism. Remember: nature is sexist.

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 01:43 AM

"What kind of questions should I not ask here? - Avoid asking questions that are overly subjective, argumentative, or require extended discussion. This is not a discussion board nor a blog, this is a place for questions that can be answered!" It is also stated in the same FAQ that you can vote to close your own questions at 250 rep, or any question at 3000 rep. (And likewise, anyone with 10k rep can delete a closed question.) http://paleohacks.com/faq

52dd4e2f233fffa5eb91e285896eb312

(80)

on March 17, 2011
at 03:56 AM

Although I will say that being able to make choices... well, it's called the illusion of choice for a reason. Throughout history, it's always been the people who refused to stick to societal norms and actually MADE their own choices that stand out as the 'greats', and women and men are equally represented in that, I feel.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on March 17, 2011
at 05:46 PM

@Aek - 3) You characterize PH as "That said, I've found the responses to most questions to be overwhelmingly juvenile, ill-informed and willfully ignorant about a wide variety of basic concepts: historical, sociological, anthropological, science, health and medicine. Sometimes it seems that all that's missing is a reel of the Flintstones." You couldn't be more wrong. There are many contributors from many perspectives that are anything but ignorant. 4) Last thing -- I don't think you are a good fit here -- let me know and I will happily delete your account.

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