8

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Nutrients or PUFA: The great sunflower seed debate

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 27, 2010 at 4:51 PM

I'm currently plugging my daily meals into Fitday to see if I can drop my multvitamin.

I keep carbs about 60g a day and I've discovered I'm low on vitamin E, B1 and copper. (and D and fiber, but I supplement the former and could care less about the latter)

I've discovered that 1oz of sunflower seeds plugs all these gaps and makes my day pretty much nutritionally complete. Howwver it comes with an eye-watering 9g of linoleic acid, which throws my omega 6 consumption above 4% of calories for the day.

Should I take the PUFA hit for the nutrients? Will most of the vitamin E get used dealing with the PUFA anyway? Should I just drop it and take a supplement? Are the RDA's applicable to a paleo person?

D3495cd9e3e7173f24e1dbee40774573

on August 21, 2011
at 05:38 PM

Thanks, I was also concerned about my Vit E intake- the only vitamin or mineral that was consistently low. Good to know:)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 01, 2011
at 02:59 AM

haha, thanks thaneverbefore. Either way, I do now try to make sure if I eat PUFA that they are vitamin E rich PUFAs.

Aa3a90ba6f6a6d488f28cfcdc4e05627

on July 01, 2011
at 01:29 AM

http://onibasu.com/archives/nn/97425.html - forum post Chris made about it

Aa3a90ba6f6a6d488f28cfcdc4e05627

on July 01, 2011
at 01:28 AM

Chris made this forum post about it: onibasu.com/archives/nn/97425.html

Aa3a90ba6f6a6d488f28cfcdc4e05627

on June 30, 2011
at 11:23 PM

http://onibasu.com/archives/nn/97425.html

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on June 30, 2011
at 10:43 PM

Fitday is not your lord and master :)

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on June 30, 2011
at 10:18 PM

I thought the RDA was based on how much PUFAs the average american eats yes?no?maybe?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on June 30, 2011
at 09:47 PM

meliss - please do. i remember reading in one if chris's posts that the vitamin E plays a significant role in cholesterol tranfsers as well, and potentionally in protection from LDL oxidation. but that it needs to be a pure source of E from natural tocopherols, not the tocopherols that have been fudged with by man.

Medium avatar

(178)

on June 30, 2011
at 09:44 PM

I have been doing nutrition for ten years, and when you do it this long, trust me, you are going to go woo somewhere. Live a little!! You'd be surprised who subscribes to it, ironically I don't trust it for myself even though I mentioned it but a lot of people have been helped by it. Try the pulse thing :)

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on June 30, 2011
at 09:38 PM

You had me right until muscle testing, a bit to far on the woo scale for me.

0d821bf7d4028b84a6838062db0e9ce0

(754)

on April 28, 2010
at 02:09 PM

as far as iodine, seaweed can be a good and tasty source. A lot of people even with massive exposure and no sunscreen don't get enough D3 from the sun, forget what the reason was but I remember reading a pretty far ranging study on it. As far as liver, pate/liverwurst can be yummy.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on April 27, 2010
at 11:42 PM

Thank you, that's put my mind at ease! I do feel quite healthy.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 27, 2010
at 09:47 PM

Great info! I always was kind of concerned by my vitamin E intake.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 27, 2010
at 06:51 PM

I have about 6 oz of beef liver three times a month and chicken livers twice a month....both fried in coconut oil/butter. My Vit D3 serum level is 68 ng/ml...right where it should be...so I don't think there is a problem with the A antagonizing the Vit D3 for me. I think I could grow tired of liver everyday. It is delicious but not THAT delicious!

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 27, 2010
at 06:49 PM

I have about 6 oz of beef liver three times a month and chicken livers twice a month....both fried in coconut oil/butter. My Vit D3 serum level is 68 ng/ml...right where it should be...so I don't think there is a problem with the A antagonizing the Vit D3 for me.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on April 27, 2010
at 06:38 PM

The only thing about beef liver is that you can't eat it every day because of the A, can you? Or could you eat a little bit each day?

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on April 27, 2010
at 06:35 PM

Thanks Jay, that makes sense.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on April 27, 2010
at 06:19 PM

The RDA's on fitday are quite high for some nutrients. Getting 15mg of vitamin E everyday would be quite hard without eating seed oils and as you say without eating seeds oils you are unlikely to need so much vitamin E.

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6 Answers

best answer

5
15d23403fb836f2b506f4f3ad2c03356

(1219)

on April 27, 2010
at 06:11 PM

You need less vitamin E if you consume less linoleic acid. The Lyon Diet Heart Study (cancer write up) discusses this. See it here. People who eat more PUFA generally have lower serum vit E, despite consuming more dietary vit E. That's because PUFAs are the main substrate for vit E.

In the Lyon study, patients in the experimental group consumed more vitamin C, more fiber,7, 21 and probably more trace elements and flavonoids than control patients did. The experimental group, however, consumed less polyunsaturated fats and less vitamin E, the major lipid-soluble antioxidant vitamin.7, 21 The paradoxical consequence of that in terms of plasma levels was that plasma levels of both vitamins C and E were higher in experimental patients,7 suggesting that adoption of Mediterranean dietary habits also results in better antioxidant defenses and lower catabolism of vitamin E. This is not surprising, because the nature of the substrate for lipid peroxidation, mainly the polyunsaturated fatty acids, and not only the antioxidants, is a dominant influence in determining the rate of lipid peroxidation.26 The importance of the fatty acid composition of lipids, in both plasma and cell membranes, in determining their susceptibility to oxidation was impressively demonstrated by recent studies comparing lipids enriched in either linoleic acid or oleic acid in animal models as well as in humans27-28: lipids enriched in oleic acid were remarkably resistant to oxidation. Mediterranean patients thus had fatty acid profiles in their diet and plasma extremely favorable for protecting circulating and tissue lipids against oxidation, as oleic acid level was increased, whereas linoleic acid level was decreased.7, Future trials with the purpose of reinforcing antioxidant defenses to protect against cancer should take this important point into consideration

I take low doses of supplemental vitamin E. You can find a low dose if you buy drops. They are usually about 12-20 IU per drop. I take a few drops per day with meals.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on April 27, 2010
at 06:35 PM

Thanks Jay, that makes sense.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on April 27, 2010
at 06:19 PM

The RDA's on fitday are quite high for some nutrients. Getting 15mg of vitamin E everyday would be quite hard without eating seed oils and as you say without eating seeds oils you are unlikely to need so much vitamin E.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 27, 2010
at 09:47 PM

Great info! I always was kind of concerned by my vitamin E intake.

best answer

1
C76eced60ac16a6a95551cf2f319820f

(401)

on April 27, 2010
at 08:32 PM

I would never put so much faith in any website, especially Fitday. Just because this website says you're not getting your recommended daily allowance of vitamin E doesn't necessarily make it so.

Ask yourself: do i feel sick? Do I get ill quite a lot? Am I suffering from symptoms commonly associated vitamin whatever deficiency?

If you're not suffering from deficiencies, who's to say that increasing your intake of this thing or that thing will make you healthier? If you're already healthy, what's the problem?

Always be sceptical, it's what a good scientist would do. Don't let a website tell you you've got a problem!

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on April 27, 2010
at 11:42 PM

Thank you, that's put my mind at ease! I do feel quite healthy.

3
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on June 30, 2011
at 09:39 PM

I'll try to get him to post about it, but Chris Masterjohn told me the RDAs for E were drawn up based on an experiment based on what was needed for prisoners getting all their fat from boiled corn oil!!!! So for those of us not consuming rancid pufas, less is needed.

Aa3a90ba6f6a6d488f28cfcdc4e05627

on July 01, 2011
at 01:29 AM

http://onibasu.com/archives/nn/97425.html - forum post Chris made about it

Aa3a90ba6f6a6d488f28cfcdc4e05627

on July 01, 2011
at 01:28 AM

Chris made this forum post about it: onibasu.com/archives/nn/97425.html

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 01, 2011
at 02:59 AM

haha, thanks thaneverbefore. Either way, I do now try to make sure if I eat PUFA that they are vitamin E rich PUFAs.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on June 30, 2011
at 10:18 PM

I thought the RDA was based on how much PUFAs the average american eats yes?no?maybe?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on June 30, 2011
at 09:47 PM

meliss - please do. i remember reading in one if chris's posts that the vitamin E plays a significant role in cholesterol tranfsers as well, and potentionally in protection from LDL oxidation. but that it needs to be a pure source of E from natural tocopherols, not the tocopherols that have been fudged with by man.

Aa3a90ba6f6a6d488f28cfcdc4e05627

on June 30, 2011
at 11:23 PM

http://onibasu.com/archives/nn/97425.html

D3495cd9e3e7173f24e1dbee40774573

on August 21, 2011
at 05:38 PM

Thanks, I was also concerned about my Vit E intake- the only vitamin or mineral that was consistently low. Good to know:)

2
06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 27, 2010
at 05:59 PM

It would be better to get the nutrients you are deficient in from whole foods. Beef liver has a good amount of copper. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/search?q=liver

A complete B complex is much better than just trying to focus on one of the B complexes. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_vitamins Liver, turkey, tuna are good sources of B complex

For Vit E http://www.weightlossforall.com/foods-rich-vitamin-E.htm You are right, those industrial oils do provide the E along with the O-6 in copious amounts.

Almonds, curry, cucurmin, eggs, cod liver oil all provide enough E.

Dr Cannell who started the Vit D Council is not a fan of multi vitamins because they usually contain Vit A which is antagonistic to Vit D. Dr. Davis has reprinted Dr. Cannell's newsletter here. http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search?q=multi+vitamins

If one eats real food favoring the meats and fats of animals with some judicious use of some herbs, I fail to see why supplementation is necessary...unless one is hypothroid and needs thyroid hormone or iodine. Or if a person cannot/will not get full sun for 1/2 hour a day for their Vit D3....then supplement with D3.

0d821bf7d4028b84a6838062db0e9ce0

(754)

on April 28, 2010
at 02:09 PM

as far as iodine, seaweed can be a good and tasty source. A lot of people even with massive exposure and no sunscreen don't get enough D3 from the sun, forget what the reason was but I remember reading a pretty far ranging study on it. As far as liver, pate/liverwurst can be yummy.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on April 27, 2010
at 06:38 PM

The only thing about beef liver is that you can't eat it every day because of the A, can you? Or could you eat a little bit each day?

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 27, 2010
at 06:49 PM

I have about 6 oz of beef liver three times a month and chicken livers twice a month....both fried in coconut oil/butter. My Vit D3 serum level is 68 ng/ml...right where it should be...so I don't think there is a problem with the A antagonizing the Vit D3 for me.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 27, 2010
at 06:51 PM

I have about 6 oz of beef liver three times a month and chicken livers twice a month....both fried in coconut oil/butter. My Vit D3 serum level is 68 ng/ml...right where it should be...so I don't think there is a problem with the A antagonizing the Vit D3 for me. I think I could grow tired of liver everyday. It is delicious but not THAT delicious!

1
Medium avatar

on June 30, 2011
at 09:35 PM

I think if they are very good quality where you can maybe find out how fresh they are and when they were harvested, it could be fine. I had some PMS problems and I used wheat germ oil despite the protests against the PUFAs, it was the only thing that helped me and I wish I had tried it earlier but my fear of pufas, delayed my experimentation and palm oil with it's vitamin E did nothing. I ran and out and still had residual fear about the PUFAs and thought, maybe I didn't need to take it anymore, and the symptoms came back!! Now I am so mad at myself.

I say this all the time, you can't judge a food good or bad based on one thing. It's like people with blood sugar problems being helped by beets.... what about the high sugar content of beets? But the problem is looking at beets only in terms of one thing, sugar. That's a mistake and there are properties of food that science isn't even aware of yet. Variety is very important but freshness and purity is the most important. That whole pufa thing is still being ironed out with some saying Omega six should be higher than omega 3s and that the problems come solely because of the freshness issue.

Can you do muscle testing, or ground some up in water and put a drop on your wrist, like the GAPS diet suggests? THere's also taking your pulse after you eat them and some people use dousing, but that's probably the least reliable.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on June 30, 2011
at 09:38 PM

You had me right until muscle testing, a bit to far on the woo scale for me.

Medium avatar

(178)

on June 30, 2011
at 09:44 PM

I have been doing nutrition for ten years, and when you do it this long, trust me, you are going to go woo somewhere. Live a little!! You'd be surprised who subscribes to it, ironically I don't trust it for myself even though I mentioned it but a lot of people have been helped by it. Try the pulse thing :)

1
Bfe76eee280eb2fedc36f15238bf7db3

on April 27, 2010
at 07:28 PM

I'd definitely go without the seeds. You have to consider that those recommendations are for people eating a standard american diet and thus nutrient use and absorption is very different when you don't eat grains, dairy and just generally high carb.

I'm able to really feel the difference sometimes when I eat a little more fruit. I'm having candida problems and I'm low on some nutrients like iron and I noticed eating more iron rich food helps a bit, bit lowering fruits helps a whole lot.

Like others said, go for the occasional liver, it is a nutritional powerhouse. Don't go overboard with the liver. Think about our ancestors, there is just one liver per animal and they would certainly not waste the rest of the meat and just eat the organs. So, I think eating liver once a week is fine. The problem I could see is not only vitamin D deficiency, but vitamin A toxicity with too much liver. Chronic high levels of Vit A could be damaging to your kidneys. Polar bear and husky liver is so high in Vitamin A that it's lethal for us humans.

Anyways, my gut instinct always tells me that good quality and variety food that was available to our ancestors ought to be more than enough for our needs since it did the job for so long. Today, we can plug-in the data on websites and try to get a perfect intake of everything, but our ancestors certainly didn't suffer too much if they weren't living where coconuts or avocados or nuts where available in good quantity. He would adapt and be perfectly fine with what was available.

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