1

votes

Is obesity is the result of a defective capacity for coping with carbohydrates

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 06, 2011 at 10:31 PM

If so, obesity should be cured by avoiding carbohydrates altogether, but can the defect ever be cured, so that carbohydrates (good ones that is) can again form a large part of the diet, or ought the dietary ratio: 1.0/3.0/0.5 (P/F/A) be adhered to permanently

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 12, 2011
at 06:06 PM

levels in the control group decrease. Differences between the groups were detectable within 1 h (Malmstrom et al. 1996 )." That's from the subsection marked "Role of insulin." So this part would be more in line with your original answer. Haven't looked at the cited study yet though. Alright, thanks much for the comment exchange.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 12, 2011
at 06:05 PM

levels in the control group decrease. Differences between the groups were detectable within 1 h (Malmstrom et al. 1996 )." That's from the subsection marked "Role of insulin." So this part would be more in line with your original answer. Haven't looked at that study yet though. Alright, thanks much for the comment exchange.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 12, 2011
at 06:03 PM

I guess that sounds right to me, but there are just so many factors and I'm still learning about it all. I might try to get those two links of mine to some paleo bloggers and see the reaction. Also I should have mentioned this one bit from the first link, the review article: even if there is no short-term effect on leptin from raised insulin in studies, "when plasma leptin levels during physiologic insulin infusion are compared with those of saline-infused controls at the same time of day, it is clear that insulin either maintains or increases plasma leptin levels, whereas [Continued]

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on April 12, 2011
at 12:48 PM

Cool studies, I had not read those. In addition to insulin's direct effect on expression of leptin mRNA in adipocytes, simply having more adipocytes leads to more possible binding targets for insulin which leads to more cells expressing leptin after a meal. Therein lies one way to break one's metabolism via novel chronic high carbage: Intake significant carbs, elicit massive insulin response, pump out tons of leptin & stimulate adipogenesis simultaneously -- done over a long period of time, you accrue more fat which responds with more leptin to the same amount of insulin (I assume).

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 12, 2011
at 06:42 AM

ten years old. I did see a 2010 review that still claimed a link of this kind between insulin and leptin, but who knows, I might find something more recent that overturns all this.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 12, 2011
at 06:40 AM

that insulin and leptin are not tied *in the short term* as you suggest, but only over longer periods of time. So there is still a link, in that more insulin leads to more leptin and thus less hunger, but only over several days. This has the fascinating implication that indeed chronically high insulin can lead to chronically high leptin and from there to leptin resistance (the obese usually have high leptin levels, and disproportionately so). This study is the crucial one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC508285/pdf/1001107.pdf The big problem is that this stuff is [Continued]

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 12, 2011
at 06:35 AM

Thanks, Becker. I probably should have been more specific. I guess I was interested in your rather direct claim of a rather direct relationship between leptin and insulin, because that would suggest that hyperinsulinemia can be the cause of obesity, which theory has become rather unfashionable recently. (It would work thus: High insulin -> high leptin -> leptin resistance -> obesity.) Anyhow I decided to get up off my butt and look for myself and I found some interesting stuff. Here's a good review article: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/12/3127S.long the result of which is [Continued]

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on April 11, 2011
at 01:16 AM

WCC Paul: A bit short on time here, so I can't produce anything terribly specific, but check out leangains.com (if that's not right, just google LeanGains). Great info there regarding leptin and insulin, but you'll have to dig a bit. Otherwise, there is a ton of leptin info on Wikipedia and in the primary literature. DudleyP: Alas, I'm steering clear of butter until I can find a good raw producer around here. Instead, I'll just substitute it with a nice, solid pound of steak. No loss :)

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 07, 2011
at 09:00 PM

obesity is not a case of "overeating", but that possibly overeating AND other severe issues caused a bad hormonal/biochemical environment. chronic stealth infections, inherited genetic issues, environmental toxins, etc. its so much more than food even though food is a very big chunk.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 07, 2011
at 08:58 PM

reducing something as complex as diet and hormones often results in over-simplification. the best "proof" is self-experimentation. there are too many unknown variables in your question: what is the persons workload like? stress levels? are they eating enough healthy fat? too much protein? a completely stressed out person will gain weight even on vlc diet... is it the carbs then? an athlete with near-perfect hormonal environment can pound away at fruit and yams and worse and still lose weight, especially if they cycle or upregulate leptin levels.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 07, 2011
at 07:11 PM

Stabby I will look.....I recall one in a magazine article

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 07, 2011
at 07:10 PM

Yes...but it recovers if you repair the problem. Requires a patient doc and lots of changes for a patient

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on April 07, 2011
at 07:18 AM

so good for the cause Dr. K - but is there any cure for such a metabolism, or if prone to dysregulation, is one always prone?

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on April 07, 2011
at 07:06 AM

dsohei - as an 'amateur thinker', I would appreciate your advice on what carbohydrates you believe can be ingested in significant quantities, and at a higher proportion of the diet ratio than generally recommended, without any concern for weight gain?

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on April 07, 2011
at 07:00 AM

Well reasoned advice - hopefully plenty of butter or cream with the yam?

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on April 07, 2011
at 05:21 AM

Indeed, which could be expounded upon in thousands of pages. Dr. K do you know of any good metabolic syndrome flow-charts? I'm dying to get my hands on an accurate and up-to-date visual representation of all of the dysregulation, imbalance and deficiency that causes all of the rest, in that swirling vortex of metabolic doom.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 07, 2011
at 03:47 AM

Thanks for this answer. Do you have a reference or something instructive to read for your points about the insulin-leptin link in the first and second paragraphs? Not a challenge -- just curious. Extremely curious, actually.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 07, 2011
at 12:03 AM

The key is whether you can overcome fatty liver and insulin resistance. Its mostly a question of liver damage - but the liver has an amazing capacity to heal itself! So, yes it is possible. Most people seem to need more carbs as they get closer to being lean.

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7 Answers

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3
Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on April 07, 2011
at 01:20 AM

I have about 5% body fat. I dropped to that from 10% when I dove headlong into the Paleo lifestyle in August. Now, I NEED carbs, at least to some degree. When I first began Paleo, I had maybe 20g of carbs or less for several months with no ill effects or cravings. The cravings really do get fairly nasty now. This is a function of my low baseline leptin since adipocytes secrete leptin, and I have very few adipocytes. High carb load raises insulin which stimulates adipocytes to secrete leptin which tells my brain that I'm full, satiated, packed with nutrients & nourishment, etc.

If you have poor insulin sensitivity, you will not produce leptin as you should because a greater amount of insulin will be required to elicit the same leptin response as that required in a more insulin-sensitive person. Before Paleo, a potato or two would make me feel like crap for the rest of the day. Now, I eat a huge sweet potato or yam (1 tsp cinnamon, 1/2 tsp ground cloves thrown in food processor with steamed yam -- tastes exactly like pumpkin pie, thank me later) after every workout, and I feel great. This was n=1 proof positive for me that Paleo restored my insulin sensitivity to a biologically normal state.

I'm only 22, though. I didn't accrue TOO much liver or metabolic damage as a result of my previous diet. If you're older, you have likely accumulated more damage to your liver and insulin system and metabolism in general. As a result, it may take a great deal of time to restore your insulin sensitivity to the point where >100g of carbs a day, let alone in a meal, doesn't make you feel like shit.

Just fast, sleep ad lib, build strength, take long walks at least 3 times a week, avoid stress and keep happy and positive, and eat very low carb for several months to a year, and you can expect your metabolism to recover about as much as it's going to. Don't forget to watch your mood and stress level -- Paleo isn't all about food and exercise. Much of our biochemistry is regulated by neurotransmitters which YOU control by taking command of your life and attitude! This has worked wonders for me.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 07, 2011
at 03:47 AM

Thanks for this answer. Do you have a reference or something instructive to read for your points about the insulin-leptin link in the first and second paragraphs? Not a challenge -- just curious. Extremely curious, actually.

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on April 07, 2011
at 07:00 AM

Well reasoned advice - hopefully plenty of butter or cream with the yam?

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 12, 2011
at 06:40 AM

that insulin and leptin are not tied *in the short term* as you suggest, but only over longer periods of time. So there is still a link, in that more insulin leads to more leptin and thus less hunger, but only over several days. This has the fascinating implication that indeed chronically high insulin can lead to chronically high leptin and from there to leptin resistance (the obese usually have high leptin levels, and disproportionately so). This study is the crucial one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC508285/pdf/1001107.pdf The big problem is that this stuff is [Continued]

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 12, 2011
at 06:05 PM

levels in the control group decrease. Differences between the groups were detectable within 1 h (Malmstrom et al. 1996 )." That's from the subsection marked "Role of insulin." So this part would be more in line with your original answer. Haven't looked at that study yet though. Alright, thanks much for the comment exchange.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 12, 2011
at 06:03 PM

I guess that sounds right to me, but there are just so many factors and I'm still learning about it all. I might try to get those two links of mine to some paleo bloggers and see the reaction. Also I should have mentioned this one bit from the first link, the review article: even if there is no short-term effect on leptin from raised insulin in studies, "when plasma leptin levels during physiologic insulin infusion are compared with those of saline-infused controls at the same time of day, it is clear that insulin either maintains or increases plasma leptin levels, whereas [Continued]

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 12, 2011
at 06:35 AM

Thanks, Becker. I probably should have been more specific. I guess I was interested in your rather direct claim of a rather direct relationship between leptin and insulin, because that would suggest that hyperinsulinemia can be the cause of obesity, which theory has become rather unfashionable recently. (It would work thus: High insulin -> high leptin -> leptin resistance -> obesity.) Anyhow I decided to get up off my butt and look for myself and I found some interesting stuff. Here's a good review article: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/12/3127S.long the result of which is [Continued]

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on April 11, 2011
at 01:16 AM

WCC Paul: A bit short on time here, so I can't produce anything terribly specific, but check out leangains.com (if that's not right, just google LeanGains). Great info there regarding leptin and insulin, but you'll have to dig a bit. Otherwise, there is a ton of leptin info on Wikipedia and in the primary literature. DudleyP: Alas, I'm steering clear of butter until I can find a good raw producer around here. Instead, I'll just substitute it with a nice, solid pound of steak. No loss :)

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 12, 2011
at 06:42 AM

ten years old. I did see a 2010 review that still claimed a link of this kind between insulin and leptin, but who knows, I might find something more recent that overturns all this.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 12, 2011
at 06:06 PM

levels in the control group decrease. Differences between the groups were detectable within 1 h (Malmstrom et al. 1996 )." That's from the subsection marked "Role of insulin." So this part would be more in line with your original answer. Haven't looked at the cited study yet though. Alright, thanks much for the comment exchange.

Cf626d3fba66c18297b3f1116a920e58

(3417)

on April 12, 2011
at 12:48 PM

Cool studies, I had not read those. In addition to insulin's direct effect on expression of leptin mRNA in adipocytes, simply having more adipocytes leads to more possible binding targets for insulin which leads to more cells expressing leptin after a meal. Therein lies one way to break one's metabolism via novel chronic high carbage: Intake significant carbs, elicit massive insulin response, pump out tons of leptin & stimulate adipogenesis simultaneously -- done over a long period of time, you accrue more fat which responds with more leptin to the same amount of insulin (I assume).

9
D3ff004d4a0c42b67cc2c49a5ee9c0f3

(5801)

on April 06, 2011
at 10:36 PM

I'd say the real defect is that the US Government subsidizes grain and its processing so that unhealthy goods produced from those commodity crops are artificially cheap and can be exported world-wide.

2
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 07, 2011
at 01:45 AM

obesity is dysregulated metabolism based upon altered hormonal response to the consumed particulate.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on April 07, 2011
at 05:21 AM

Indeed, which could be expounded upon in thousands of pages. Dr. K do you know of any good metabolic syndrome flow-charts? I'm dying to get my hands on an accurate and up-to-date visual representation of all of the dysregulation, imbalance and deficiency that causes all of the rest, in that swirling vortex of metabolic doom.

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on April 07, 2011
at 07:18 AM

so good for the cause Dr. K - but is there any cure for such a metabolism, or if prone to dysregulation, is one always prone?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 07, 2011
at 07:11 PM

Stabby I will look.....I recall one in a magazine article

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 07, 2011
at 07:10 PM

Yes...but it recovers if you repair the problem. Requires a patient doc and lots of changes for a patient

2
Ac1e55cf06c2180f4008ff01953d10dd

on April 06, 2011
at 11:25 PM

It depends on how much damage has suffered your metabolism. If obesity has come (as often happens) together with diabetes, hypothiroidism or other serious ailment, it is unlikely that you can go back to a diet heavy on carbs. If your metabolism is still OK you will be able to go back to consume potatoes or white rice!

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 07, 2011
at 12:03 AM

The key is whether you can overcome fatty liver and insulin resistance. Its mostly a question of liver damage - but the liver has an amazing capacity to heal itself! So, yes it is possible. Most people seem to need more carbs as they get closer to being lean.

1
030167d1516b20d4a79f326dded608b0

on April 06, 2011
at 11:19 PM

That fact that we can live for decades eating a S.A.D. is a testament to the resilience of the human body. Is obesity a side effect? Yep. Defect? I dunno.

1
34a367e60db77270bd7096dc04270fdc

(4171)

on April 06, 2011
at 10:55 PM

Between the grains, sugar, antibiotics, pesticides, preservatives, and various other chemicals in processed foods and our conventionally raised meats who knows which of these ingredients or all of them together are causing us to get sick and fat. It sure is despicable that it's been allowed to develop into what it is though.

0
05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 06, 2011
at 11:10 PM

no it isn't. all carbs are not the same. this is amateur thinking.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 07, 2011
at 09:00 PM

obesity is not a case of "overeating", but that possibly overeating AND other severe issues caused a bad hormonal/biochemical environment. chronic stealth infections, inherited genetic issues, environmental toxins, etc. its so much more than food even though food is a very big chunk.

2f54dbe892ec89b12d1db686568e885a

(919)

on April 07, 2011
at 07:06 AM

dsohei - as an 'amateur thinker', I would appreciate your advice on what carbohydrates you believe can be ingested in significant quantities, and at a higher proportion of the diet ratio than generally recommended, without any concern for weight gain?

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on April 07, 2011
at 08:58 PM

reducing something as complex as diet and hormones often results in over-simplification. the best "proof" is self-experimentation. there are too many unknown variables in your question: what is the persons workload like? stress levels? are they eating enough healthy fat? too much protein? a completely stressed out person will gain weight even on vlc diet... is it the carbs then? an athlete with near-perfect hormonal environment can pound away at fruit and yams and worse and still lose weight, especially if they cycle or upregulate leptin levels.

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