10

votes

Would you be interested in a paleo ACO/insurance plan dedicated to our lifestyle?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created August 17, 2011 at 10:11 PM

If so leave comments here or on my blog of today, august 17 2011 or on Brent pottengers site. We are out to change everyone's life for the better but we want your input. Since we are asking the question we want the answers from you......

Thanks.

I hope this is ok with patrik and the mods......but it benefits us all.

91fe5b7e10068df9f147ee84320e38f7

(614)

on August 25, 2011
at 05:19 AM

Okay, I'm an idiot of sorts. Dr. K, totally forgot you were an oral surgeon earlier in your career. Of course that would be on your mind. I just see it with so few others (other "health care providers") that I tend to harp on it. Cheers.

65430e39d7e9e9322718d016fe668051

(2944)

on August 21, 2011
at 07:42 AM

Thanks BAMBAM ;-)

E7a462d6e99fec7e8f0ddda11b34a770

(1638)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:38 PM

And just to clarify, I am NOT against the insurance idea at all if it can be figured out - I think it is fabulous and long overdue to offer coverage outside the AMA mainstream. I just felt the original answer was a little simplistic and slightly judgemental. The cancer idea was just one example I wanted to throw out there since we do NOT yet know everything about several diseases.

E7a462d6e99fec7e8f0ddda11b34a770

(1638)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:32 PM

Yes, cancer may be *mainly* a neolithic disease, but diet CANNOT account for everything. Just ask people who lived around Love Canal about environmentally engendered cancers from things around you that you may not be able to control for since you don't even know the danger is out there buried in the ground under your house or flowing in the canal at the end of the street.

91fe5b7e10068df9f147ee84320e38f7

(614)

on August 19, 2011
at 04:59 AM

Beautiful. That was just my addendum on the great ideas posted in the thread thus far. But if you can actually pull it off...damm, kudos! Thanks!

F4aff43df6a8a49a1c3879c1233ee560

(459)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:22 AM

Sorry to sit here having a conversation with myself, but here's an additional thought. Another reason for my bare bones policy is that there are a lot of controversial issues that we're still dealing with. I'm not sure that I want to be in an insurance pool with the paleos who go around eating lean meat and fistfulls of nuts while doing crossfit 5 times a week...

F4aff43df6a8a49a1c3879c1233ee560

(459)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:15 AM

Anyway, my bare bones policy might be a moot point. I doubt a policy that excludes so many diseases would pass muster with the new health care mandate. Can anyone familiar with the legislation verify this?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:03 AM

And I think it's naive of you to be that dogmatic to disregard the possibility. There is a ton of data supporting my belief and some that does not. It's an open question to many in medicine

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:00 AM

I think web based medical chart is gonna stream line that

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:00 AM

Don't think so but I'd say ask Robb

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 19, 2011
at 12:59 AM

That is what insurance is for.....

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 19, 2011
at 12:58 AM

I think in the beginning this is true

226b10cbb6b1d3530b00d2d84a2dc86e

(3313)

on August 18, 2011
at 10:40 PM

+1 of those is from me Danielle. Every day I search for raw goat milk, I grow more envious of you.

226b10cbb6b1d3530b00d2d84a2dc86e

(3313)

on August 18, 2011
at 05:56 PM

I would agree to Paleo certification on top of my R.D. training. The basic sciences are heavily emphasized by the CADE so covering R.D's would lend credibility to the company. Can Robb's training count as renewal credits for an RD license? That would be a nice incentive. As of now, I plan to secure my renewals through seminars on integrative medicine.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on August 18, 2011
at 05:42 PM

I don't plan on it!

7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on August 18, 2011
at 05:38 PM

It's kind of appalling to see a medical professional make a ridiculous blanket statement like that about cancer.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on August 18, 2011
at 04:57 PM

If I do get injured, I'd rather pay out of pocket if it's my fault.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:50 PM

The dietitians will have to be retrained a bit. Robb wolf has a cadre of dietitians who are paleo certified. We will need to incorporate them all well. There are many in our community already.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:48 PM

I do consider cancer Neolithic disease. I believe if you eat correctly for your epigenome.....you don't get cancer. And hopefully this coverage will allow people to learn how to apply these principles to their lives.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:47 PM

So I guess you don't think you'll ever get injured?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:46 PM

We have some dentists who are interested in getting involved too

226b10cbb6b1d3530b00d2d84a2dc86e

(3313)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:37 PM

+1 star from me.

226b10cbb6b1d3530b00d2d84a2dc86e

(3313)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:36 PM

"I like the idea mentioned above about paying fairly high out of pocket costs initially, and then being covered 100% above 5k for example." +1 from me.

E7a462d6e99fec7e8f0ddda11b34a770

(1638)

on August 18, 2011
at 02:24 PM

Sorry, but this steps a little too close to blaming the victim for me. Kind of an "I've got mine, too bad about you." attitude. Do you consider cancer a "disease of civilization"? Because young people DO eventually get old, and a healthy diet and good physical condition are NOT guarantees against some types of cancer.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on August 18, 2011
at 04:06 AM

EFT doesn't meet the requirements of insurance companies. It's not a recognized "therapy" yet, though that may change as more double-blind studies are done.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:15 AM

I agree! Perhaps something like those healthcare savings plans? I don't know exactly how they work but I believe if you don't spend your allotted amount of money it can roll over to the next year?

65430e39d7e9e9322718d016fe668051

(2944)

on August 18, 2011
at 02:04 AM

I wish EFT practitioners took insurance. I know one life coach woman who charges $400 an hour.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on August 18, 2011
at 12:50 AM

Unfortunately, any insurance company, no matter how paleo, deciding which "alternative" practitioners would qualify would leave a lot of really effective Paleo-friendly folks out of the picture. I do energy psychology, for example, (EFT) and no way would I be willing to jump through the hoops required by an insurance company.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 17, 2011
at 11:10 PM

Yes............

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 17, 2011
at 11:00 PM

Totally. I think we should get better car insurance rates, maybe even better tax deductions/credits for having great health markers.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 17, 2011
at 10:55 PM

We have actuaries already on board using new parameter S for us

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 17, 2011
at 10:54 PM

Lol.....I chuckled.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 17, 2011
at 10:54 PM

We will get to that....right now we are in info gather Ing phase

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on August 17, 2011
at 10:54 PM

I'd love to hear details!

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 17, 2011
at 10:13 PM

This is from the paleo fallout from AHS 2011..... We now want to make this a revolution. So we really want everyone to be a participant in the construction of the plan. Tell us how we can help you in any way

  • Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

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16 Answers

8
65430e39d7e9e9322718d016fe668051

(2944)

on August 17, 2011
at 11:02 PM

Paleo-friendly naturopaths/MDs including psychologists/psychiatrists, a range of alternative practitioners such as massage therapists, chiropractors/cranio-sacral, etc

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on August 18, 2011
at 04:06 AM

EFT doesn't meet the requirements of insurance companies. It's not a recognized "therapy" yet, though that may change as more double-blind studies are done.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on August 18, 2011
at 12:50 AM

Unfortunately, any insurance company, no matter how paleo, deciding which "alternative" practitioners would qualify would leave a lot of really effective Paleo-friendly folks out of the picture. I do energy psychology, for example, (EFT) and no way would I be willing to jump through the hoops required by an insurance company.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 17, 2011
at 11:10 PM

Yes............

65430e39d7e9e9322718d016fe668051

(2944)

on August 18, 2011
at 02:04 AM

I wish EFT practitioners took insurance. I know one life coach woman who charges $400 an hour.

226b10cbb6b1d3530b00d2d84a2dc86e

(3313)

on August 18, 2011
at 10:40 PM

+1 of those is from me Danielle. Every day I search for raw goat milk, I grow more envious of you.

65430e39d7e9e9322718d016fe668051

(2944)

on August 21, 2011
at 07:42 AM

Thanks BAMBAM ;-)

6
510bdda8988ed0d4b0ec0b738b4edb73

(20898)

on August 17, 2011
at 10:49 PM

How do you prove you're paleo? Do you lose your insurance if you accidentally have some gluten?

Insurance is all about numbers and actuarial tables. They have no data go go by that shows that the cost of insuring a paleo person in cheaper than a non-paleo.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 17, 2011
at 10:55 PM

We have actuaries already on board using new parameter S for us

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 17, 2011
at 10:54 PM

We will get to that....right now we are in info gather Ing phase

6
22424c9eef944ade83d4e4ffda907056

(1402)

on August 17, 2011
at 10:30 PM

Insurance is not paleo.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 17, 2011
at 10:54 PM

Lol.....I chuckled.

4
64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:29 AM

I think it's a fantastic and exciting idea!

My initial thoughts would be:

  • maybe have incentives where if you don't spend your allotted amount of money on medical services each year it can sit in a savings account and roll over to the next year, or you can get some of it back somehow

  • I like the idea mentioned above about paying fairly high out of pocket costs initially, and then being covered 100% above 5k for example.

  • Connecting it with the paleo physicians network that Robb Wolf has linked through his website seems like a good idea

  • Premiums should be tied to health markers, presuming we are adopting modified markers. i.e.. Total cholesterol above 200 should not be a warning, maybe taking Total:HDL or HDL: trigs ratios, LDL particle size, etc

  • I don't like the idea about not covering diseases of civilization because while we may have an 80% (totally made up random number) less chance of getting them, they are still possible.

226b10cbb6b1d3530b00d2d84a2dc86e

(3313)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:36 PM

"I like the idea mentioned above about paying fairly high out of pocket costs initially, and then being covered 100% above 5k for example." +1 from me.

4
C0fcb48d7da4f76fac17318efd2cd6b8

on August 17, 2011
at 11:35 PM

Too soon to tell. With all these high cholesterol numbers flaoting around amongst paleos, and flying in the face of conventional wisdom and everything, who knows? Maybe we'll all keel over sooner rather than later, Art Devany notwithstanding. I'm actually kind of serious. Whack me down, that's OK.

3
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 18, 2011
at 04:10 PM

I would like to get annual/quarterly labs done at the wholesale price.

I'm good with all expenses out of pocket for the first 1-5K and then 100% coverage and the policy cost would slide to reflect.

I'd love to be able to consult via the internet with like minded MDs who could order the labs, give feedback and recommend interventions. I don't need a gp anymore but would utilize one if he/she understood the ancestral metric and was not in the pocket of Big Pharm. I can use walk-in clinics for minor emergencies and the ER for big stuff.

Also, we needs lots of like minded RNs that could do the grunt work of organizing the patients medical records, take in-depth hx etc. I'll take a job at that level and help however I can.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:00 AM

I think web based medical chart is gonna stream line that

2
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 18, 2011
at 12:53 AM

For a paleo person whose primary focus is wellness and pursuing health I would think a pay out of about $1000-$2000 payout for any services they (the insured) deems necessary each year followed by a large deductible (5-10,000) then coverage at 100%.

I have seen a couple of plans like this and think its a good model for healthy individuals that want enough coverage for extreme circumstances, yet allows that first 1-2000$ for your yearly "maintenance" if you will. The first 1-2000 could be paid for things not normally covered....personal trainers, fitness experts, nutrition(paleo) counseling, well visits to CAM practitioners...whatever.

2
91fe5b7e10068df9f147ee84320e38f7

on August 18, 2011
at 12:12 AM

Dental -- dentists/ oral surgeons who understand the relationship between diet, dental health, and overall health would be beneficial, especially. Going paleo/primal/whatever, from what I've read and experienced personally has a positive overall effect on oral health, but years of eating SAD has left many a mouth messed up.

91fe5b7e10068df9f147ee84320e38f7

(614)

on August 19, 2011
at 04:59 AM

Beautiful. That was just my addendum on the great ideas posted in the thread thus far. But if you can actually pull it off...damm, kudos! Thanks!

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:46 PM

We have some dentists who are interested in getting involved too

91fe5b7e10068df9f147ee84320e38f7

(614)

on August 25, 2011
at 05:19 AM

Okay, I'm an idiot of sorts. Dr. K, totally forgot you were an oral surgeon earlier in your career. Of course that would be on your mind. I just see it with so few others (other "health care providers") that I tend to harp on it. Cheers.

2
69891d3f91e8bf51508e0dcedc684807

on August 17, 2011
at 11:30 PM

Sounds like a great idea to reward people for a healthy lifestyle by saving them money. Maybe then the unhealthy ones would see the value in it. That could make an immense change.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:15 AM

I agree! Perhaps something like those healthcare savings plans? I don't know exactly how they work but I believe if you don't spend your allotted amount of money it can roll over to the next year?

1
79fc447191de75e7c178951594a43f13

(448)

on August 18, 2011
at 05:32 PM

I think the biggest problem is physical concentration of patients. People who eat paleo are about 1 in 500 or 600,000 people in the USA. All spread out. One way around this is get physicians to treat people over the internet. This would allow a physician to specialize in seeing paleo people.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 19, 2011
at 12:58 AM

I think in the beginning this is true

1
A82d8cbea04392ebcb1a819bddc4a259

(190)

on August 18, 2011
at 02:43 PM

Jeff, nicely laid out. I concur!

1
C8253d9610402729148604bd9235fc24

on August 17, 2011
at 11:55 PM

GYNs familiar with Paleo and its intersection with perimenopause, menopause, fibroids and other female issues affected by hormones and diet

naturopaths, GI paleo friendly MDs, internists who will do Paleo bloodwork and know how to read and discuss them relatively

Paleo brochures: chronic fatigue muscle wasting - chronic cardio GI issues - Crohn's and diverticulitis especially for my family; osteo issues endo issues infant guidelines (ie, wheat, dairy, dental - as we know so far) pregnancy dietary guidelines dermatology

1
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 17, 2011
at 11:13 PM

Brainstorm people......we want your thoughts now of what you'd like to see included.....don't worry about how we wil do it... Tell us your wants and needs

thanks

1
Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on August 17, 2011
at 10:34 PM

Nope. I don't go to MDs, and rarely to Naturopaths, so not very helpful for me.

Unless you are talking life insurance?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 19, 2011
at 12:59 AM

That is what insurance is for.....

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:47 PM

So I guess you don't think you'll ever get injured?

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on August 18, 2011
at 04:57 PM

If I do get injured, I'd rather pay out of pocket if it's my fault.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 17, 2011
at 11:00 PM

Totally. I think we should get better car insurance rates, maybe even better tax deductions/credits for having great health markers.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on August 18, 2011
at 05:42 PM

I don't plan on it!

0
226b10cbb6b1d3530b00d2d84a2dc86e

(3313)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:33 PM

A Paleo insurance policy should cover nutritional counseling services rendered by Registered Dietitians. In order to filter out wanna-be models and such, perhaps require measurable diagnosis of conditions where risk factors are very high starting with "overweight". As you know, this classification is measurable and standardized in the medical community but currently means little or nothing to insurance conglomerates.

There should be coverage extended for patients diagnosed as "overweight", "obese", "morbidly obese", "pre-diabetic", "metabolic syndrome", "hypertension" and of course "diabetic".

My .02.

226b10cbb6b1d3530b00d2d84a2dc86e

(3313)

on August 18, 2011
at 05:56 PM

I would agree to Paleo certification on top of my R.D. training. The basic sciences are heavily emphasized by the CADE so covering R.D's would lend credibility to the company. Can Robb's training count as renewal credits for an RD license? That would be a nice incentive. As of now, I plan to secure my renewals through seminars on integrative medicine.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:50 PM

The dietitians will have to be retrained a bit. Robb wolf has a cadre of dietitians who are paleo certified. We will need to incorporate them all well. There are many in our community already.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:00 AM

Don't think so but I'd say ask Robb

0
F4aff43df6a8a49a1c3879c1233ee560

(459)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:02 AM

As someone who discovered paleo while still young and healthy, I would like to see an inexpensive policy that covers everything EXCEPT FOR DISEASES OF CIVILIZATION. I see no need to have coverage for diseases that I will not get. My main concerns are accidental injury and infectious disease.

Seems like we would need a different approach for those who weren't fortunate enough to discover paleo before incurring metabolic damage. Maybe a policy where the premiums are tied to health metrics, ie. as a person loses weight, reverses type II diabetes, etc, their premiums fall accordingly.

Edit:

Let's briefly expound on the rationale for a paleo policy. It seems there are primary two reasons for it. First is that we want different services, such as paleo dietitians, different lab panels, doctors who understand the evolutionary approach to medicine, etc. The second is that we think it will be cheaper, and that we don't want to pay for health care cost of people who eat a SAD diet or even those who eat a "healthy" diet of whole grains and polyunsaturated fat.

I'm proposing that we have 2 paleo policies. The first one for those of us who just want to insure against things that are totally out of our control, such as accidents and infectious disease. This is appealing for me as I can't afford health care, I'm healthy and I want a policy that is as cheap as possible. I'm self-employed and my line of work is extremely dangerous. I'm one injury away from bankruptcy. Cost matters.

The second policy I proposed is for those who want a greater level of insurance, primarily because they are in the process of reversing existing health problems. This would be a broader policy that rewards people for improving their health, as quantified by certain health metrics. I'm not trying to blame the victim, but it's a fact that we are all starting from a different level of health.

And yes, I do think cancer is a disease of civilization: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/07/cancer-in-other-non-industrialized.html

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 18, 2011
at 03:48 PM

I do consider cancer Neolithic disease. I believe if you eat correctly for your epigenome.....you don't get cancer. And hopefully this coverage will allow people to learn how to apply these principles to their lives.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:03 AM

And I think it's naive of you to be that dogmatic to disregard the possibility. There is a ton of data supporting my belief and some that does not. It's an open question to many in medicine

F4aff43df6a8a49a1c3879c1233ee560

(459)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:15 AM

Anyway, my bare bones policy might be a moot point. I doubt a policy that excludes so many diseases would pass muster with the new health care mandate. Can anyone familiar with the legislation verify this?

E7a462d6e99fec7e8f0ddda11b34a770

(1638)

on August 18, 2011
at 02:24 PM

Sorry, but this steps a little too close to blaming the victim for me. Kind of an "I've got mine, too bad about you." attitude. Do you consider cancer a "disease of civilization"? Because young people DO eventually get old, and a healthy diet and good physical condition are NOT guarantees against some types of cancer.

7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on August 18, 2011
at 05:38 PM

It's kind of appalling to see a medical professional make a ridiculous blanket statement like that about cancer.

E7a462d6e99fec7e8f0ddda11b34a770

(1638)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:38 PM

And just to clarify, I am NOT against the insurance idea at all if it can be figured out - I think it is fabulous and long overdue to offer coverage outside the AMA mainstream. I just felt the original answer was a little simplistic and slightly judgemental. The cancer idea was just one example I wanted to throw out there since we do NOT yet know everything about several diseases.

F4aff43df6a8a49a1c3879c1233ee560

(459)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:22 AM

Sorry to sit here having a conversation with myself, but here's an additional thought. Another reason for my bare bones policy is that there are a lot of controversial issues that we're still dealing with. I'm not sure that I want to be in an insurance pool with the paleos who go around eating lean meat and fistfulls of nuts while doing crossfit 5 times a week...

E7a462d6e99fec7e8f0ddda11b34a770

(1638)

on August 19, 2011
at 01:32 PM

Yes, cancer may be *mainly* a neolithic disease, but diet CANNOT account for everything. Just ask people who lived around Love Canal about environmentally engendered cancers from things around you that you may not be able to control for since you don't even know the danger is out there buried in the ground under your house or flowing in the canal at the end of the street.

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