1

votes

muscle meat vs whole animal

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created July 27, 2012 at 2:45 PM

  1. unlike carnivorous animals, humans can convert beta carotene to vitamin A.

  2. unlike carnivorous animals, humans cannot produce vitamin C.

  3. humans can convert ALA from plant (and ruminant) sources into EPA and DHA. Some people say that we're just "poor converters." However, believe our bodies are smart, and maybe large amounts of long chain omega 3, EPA and DHA is potentially toxic (some studies have shown fish oil to be hepatotoxic, but not flax oil).

  4. carribean fishing cultures, like the Kitavans, seem to get very low levels of EPA and DHA from leaner fish (tuna is a staple, as are shellfish), and most of their calories from carbs and plat fat (coconut)

  5. Other tribes, like the KHUN! consume huge quantities of mongongo nuts (much like a walnut in fatty acid composition), another plant source of fat.

  6. Wild prey (squirrels, small gazelle, lizards, bugs, wild boar, etc) are all much leaner than todays livestock- even grass fed.

There may be some bias here, because after eating an animal centric diet of eggs, fattier cuts of beef (grass fed), fatty pieces of wild salmon and switching over to a diet of lots of produce, rice, nuts, coconut chicken, whitefish, tuna, and shellfish. I feel physically and mentally better. Clearer, leaner, and more energy.

Could someone please attack the above arguments in the best way you can. I would like to know if I'm just operating under some sort of bias or if I am feeling better because I am actually eating a higher quality diet than before?

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on July 28, 2012
at 12:30 PM

We don't need to resort to flax, ALA is everywhere.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 28, 2012
at 05:08 AM

BTW why is your topic title nothing to do with your question?

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 28, 2012
at 05:08 AM

Perhaps it not about the fat content, what your finding, but about the digestibility of the protein in the meat your now eating? Then, again, as I said, your carb intake via rice could be quite high. In which case you dont need as much fat for energy. Either way, it seems like a strange dichotomy, to eat either a)meat or b) plants. We are omnivores after all, we are not supposed to eat one or the other.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 28, 2012
at 05:03 AM

Anyway, its fruitless as a discussion, you feel better, your convinced its for general plant versus animal reason, rather than specific nutrients or even specific foods. As I see it, man evolved on meat. Meat was central. Its not all we ate though at all, and what exact form that meat takes was not defined by modern cow (or cow + salmon). IMO it was mostly a large variety of small game, including birds and small mammals, and in europe, some large game like deer.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 28, 2012
at 04:57 AM

Some people are better converters of plant omegas than others. Most europeans fall in this category. That part is genetic (but also probably a another very good reason to avoid excess plant omega-6s). Of course meat is a better source of some vitamins and a more complete source of aminos acids. I dont eat beef often myself. I find it hard to digest. I prefer lamb, its a softer protein. You need veggies for vitamins. I dont eat much carbs so I need more fat. You appear to eat lots of carbs now, so you probably were where either too low carb, lacking in plant vitamins, or just doing it wrong?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on July 27, 2012
at 07:02 PM

...and I'd be concerned about the estrogenic properties of flaxseed as well.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on July 27, 2012
at 05:22 PM

@Matt. the conversion is based on estrogen levels. The conversion itself has been shown to increase estrogen levels in men (i.e. converting ALA to DHA/EPA increases estrogen in men). However, it is still recommended to consume at least 500mg of EPA/DHA each. Which, if we tried to get from flax, would mean 21,944mg of Flax seeds 5000mg/(3.19g fat/14g flax)... That's a lot of flax!

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on July 27, 2012
at 04:59 PM

Thanks tyler, I was about to respond similarly. Again, Herbivore vs Omnivore is the same as Carnivore vs Omnivore. You are not comparing apples-to-apples. Hell you are not even comparing apples-to-pears.

276a5e631b62f8e0793987c0496364bb

(1644)

on July 27, 2012
at 04:38 PM

"These results indicate that the long-chain n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids in fish oil may be hepatotoxic to the herbivorous rabbit." You completely misunderstood the purpose of that study.

276a5e631b62f8e0793987c0496364bb

(1644)

on July 27, 2012
at 04:36 PM

@Alligator: Rabbit studies? This sounds like some of the original science done in the anti-cholesterol crusade.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on July 27, 2012
at 03:55 PM

@CD, EPA/DHA needs in men are actually fairly low. We don't lactate and develop fetuses like women tend to do.

3a9d5dde5212ccd34b860bb6ed07bbef

(1782)

on July 27, 2012
at 03:40 PM

and if you take the ALA increases your risk of prostate cancer thing seriously, then I sure hope you are not eating large amounts of grass fed ruminants (which contain ALA, not EPA or DHA).

3a9d5dde5212ccd34b860bb6ed07bbef

(1782)

on July 27, 2012
at 03:39 PM

^ just one link. They'er all over the web if you're looking for them.

3a9d5dde5212ccd34b860bb6ed07bbef

(1782)

on July 27, 2012
at 03:38 PM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9734717

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on July 27, 2012
at 03:26 PM

Also, high ALA intake is linked with prostate cancer whereas Fish Oils were linked with a reduction in Coronary Heart Disease and prostate cancer -- http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/4/919.full

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on July 27, 2012
at 03:25 PM

"but not flax oil" -- Men can only convert ALA to EPA at a rate of about .1 where as almost no DHA can be converted from ALA. Women are closer to .2 to DHA and .1 to ALA. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323090?dopt=Abstract . Perhaps the study just showed a poor conversion rate as why it is not toxic?

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on July 27, 2012
at 03:22 PM

"some studies have shown fish oil to be hepatotoxic" -- can you provide a link to it?

F6c1df7d5699661bd1f0d6d0a6c17fc6

on July 27, 2012
at 03:19 PM

I'm very confused about what your question actually is. Can you reword it?

  • 3a9d5dde5212ccd34b860bb6ed07bbef

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8 Answers

5
3dd59bff899261860c0bdaae8540cc70

on July 27, 2012
at 05:25 PM

This is pointless.

If it works for you, keep doing it.

The rest doesnt matter.

Stop thinking like a sheep.

5
3ab5e1b9eba22a071f653330b7fc9579

on July 27, 2012
at 04:16 PM

It sounds like you already have your mind made up. Basically you can find "evidence" to support whatever hypothesis you want (way to go Ancel Keys!), If you don't want to keep eating this way then don't, but if you feel better on this diet then it really is a no-brainer. Just do what makes you feel and function at your best.

4
3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on July 27, 2012
at 03:36 PM

For points 1 and 2, we are not carnivores, we are omnivores we are supposed to get our nutrients from a variatey of sources. Trying to set your dietary standards to those of a carnivore is silly. It's like saying Apples have lots of sugar but celery does not -- right, they are different things.

For 3:
"some studies have shown fish oil to be hepatotoxic" -- can you provide a link to it?
"but not flax oil" -- Men can only convert ALA to EPA at a rate of about .1 where as almost no DHA can be converted from ALA. Women are closer to .2 to DHA and .1 to ALA. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323090?dopt=Abstract . Perhaps the study just showed a poor conversion rate as why it is not toxic?
Also, high ALA intake is linked with prostate cancer whereas Fish Oils were linked with a reduction in Coronary Heart Disease and prostate cancer -- jn.nutrition.org/content/134/4/919.ful

For 4: Tuna is fairly fatty, and no one says coconut is bad? You are not making a adversarial arguement here

For 5: Again, agree. Fat is important, as we get it where we can. Thanks for making our point again.

For 6: not sure that is 100% true. but again you are not comparing apples-to-apples. Whales and Hippos are two examples of wild animals which are extremely fat.

Dude, if your diet is working for you then awesome! keep it up....

3a9d5dde5212ccd34b860bb6ed07bbef

(1782)

on July 27, 2012
at 03:39 PM

^ just one link. They'er all over the web if you're looking for them.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on July 27, 2012
at 03:55 PM

@CD, EPA/DHA needs in men are actually fairly low. We don't lactate and develop fetuses like women tend to do.

276a5e631b62f8e0793987c0496364bb

(1644)

on July 27, 2012
at 04:38 PM

"These results indicate that the long-chain n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids in fish oil may be hepatotoxic to the herbivorous rabbit." You completely misunderstood the purpose of that study.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on July 28, 2012
at 12:30 PM

We don't need to resort to flax, ALA is everywhere.

3a9d5dde5212ccd34b860bb6ed07bbef

(1782)

on July 27, 2012
at 03:40 PM

and if you take the ALA increases your risk of prostate cancer thing seriously, then I sure hope you are not eating large amounts of grass fed ruminants (which contain ALA, not EPA or DHA).

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on July 27, 2012
at 04:59 PM

Thanks tyler, I was about to respond similarly. Again, Herbivore vs Omnivore is the same as Carnivore vs Omnivore. You are not comparing apples-to-apples. Hell you are not even comparing apples-to-pears.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on July 27, 2012
at 05:22 PM

@Matt. the conversion is based on estrogen levels. The conversion itself has been shown to increase estrogen levels in men (i.e. converting ALA to DHA/EPA increases estrogen in men). However, it is still recommended to consume at least 500mg of EPA/DHA each. Which, if we tried to get from flax, would mean 21,944mg of Flax seeds 5000mg/(3.19g fat/14g flax)... That's a lot of flax!

3a9d5dde5212ccd34b860bb6ed07bbef

(1782)

on July 27, 2012
at 03:38 PM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9734717

276a5e631b62f8e0793987c0496364bb

(1644)

on July 27, 2012
at 04:36 PM

@Alligator: Rabbit studies? This sounds like some of the original science done in the anti-cholesterol crusade.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on July 27, 2012
at 07:02 PM

...and I'd be concerned about the estrogenic properties of flaxseed as well.

2
1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

on July 27, 2012
at 04:54 PM

I agree with Oberg- do what feels good. For what it's worth, I personally do much better eating things like shellfish, tilapia, tuna, chicken, pork tenderloin, flank steaks, nuts, coconut, and greens, roots, berries, and honey.

Also, you might like suppversity.com. I've read some bad stuff on there in regards to fish oil, so you might want to look there for some links to stregthen your argument.

1
7a6529ea25b655132fe58d793f95547a

(2030)

on July 28, 2012
at 05:57 AM

  1. Probably not the best idea to get A from beta-carotene. http://www.biosciencetechnology.com/News/2012/05/Potential--Dark-Side--Found-for-Diets-High-in-Beta-carotene/. http://www.ajcn.org/content/75/5/900.long. http://www.ajcn.org/content/71/6/1545.long. http://www.fasebj.org/content/23/4/1041.long%20. I'm pretty sure the conversion takes place in the small intestines but only in the presence of bile and with sufficient levels of zinc. Some people probably could do it but I'd rather be on the safe side.

  2. It seems to be an adaptation to cold so we could store more fat from fructose in our environment 30-40 million years ago. I believe someone asked that question here. http://paleohacks.com/questions/13126/why-did-we-lose-the-ability-to-synthesize-vitamin-c#axzz21sILSnrT

  3. If I read that study correctly then all they found was a poor test subject?

  4. I think you have to decide for yourself what macro should be your biggest, people have been healthy at both ends of the spectrum. You can look at your ancestry for a guide if it helps. As for pufas if you feel good and you get a good ratio (3-6) in the fats that you do eat then don't worry about it.

  5. If your trying to avoid pufas then I would eat coconut over walnut, but neither over pastured lard or butter. If the animals are in the sun eating grass there is lots of nutrition in that fat. Vitamin A, D, K, E, and trace minerals, all easily absorbed.

  6. It should be a question of how nutrient dense the meat is not weather it's lean or fatty. How you feel just depends on your own biochemistry/digestion at a certain point in time. If you feel better then keep doing it, that sounds like a healthy diet.

1
742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on July 28, 2012
at 12:05 AM

Like others have already said, just follow the diet that makes you feel the best. I personally feel the best on a diet similar to yours. I do good on chicken, lean beef, fish, and a lot of fat from plant sources, such as avocado, macadamias, and olives. Many do better on a high animal fat diet. We are all different, and no one diet works for everyone.

1
A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on July 27, 2012
at 05:00 PM

Just a few thoughts:

  1. Humans are not obligate carnivores and this is why we can convert beta carotene to vitamin A. The humble chicken can also convert beta carotene into vitamin A and chickens are definitely an omnivore.

  2. This could also say "unlike most mammals, humans cannot produce vitamin C". Yep, most herbivores and carnivores alike can produce vitamin C. Humans are pretty unique because we can't.

  3. I believe we can probably get by fine on ALA for our omega-3 needs most of the time, but EPA/DHA may be necessary or better to eat directly in some cases. And fish oils are full of PUFAs, so they are prone to oxidative damage which I think explains the liver damage sometimes seen in studies. This should be seen in flax oil as well. If a study showed fish oil was hepatotoxic and flax oil wasn't I would love to see it, but I'm skeptical.

  4. Yes, because we really don't need very much EPA/DHA. Just a little will do fine.

To echo CD, if your diet is working for you that's great. Everyone has a different diet that works well for them.

1
Medium avatar

(2338)

on July 27, 2012
at 03:20 PM

there are definitely benefits to each of these styles of eating. do what feels best for you and just eat real food.

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