4

votes

Do you think bovine milk is paleo?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created October 27, 2011 at 10:42 PM

I dont.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19268534/

Medium avatar

(10611)

on October 21, 2012
at 02:17 PM

My homemade yogurt came out more like Greek when I used Greek for starter. My yogurt may not be paleo, but it's more paleo than coconut and fish oil. Healthier too.

7f8bc7ce5c34aae50408d31812c839b0

(2698)

on October 21, 2012
at 02:55 AM

Yep. Butter ghee and hwc all the way.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on October 30, 2011
at 05:54 PM

Huh, so serum IGF-1 concentrations consistently correlate with longer telomeres. Guess my hypothesis is bunk. All I can really conclude so far is that if you have cancer you shouldn't consume dairy.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on October 29, 2011
at 03:10 PM

Thank you, Matthew for distilling the real points of the paper.

Medium avatar

(8239)

on October 28, 2011
at 03:07 PM

Excellent points, all. Add my Five Finger shoes to the list of my life as actually lived, and chosen, and enjoyed.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 28, 2011
at 02:32 PM

I am truly glad you two chimed in on the cancer feeding properties. This has been one of the major arguments against milk and unfermented dairy. Your points are well taken!

4781cf8ae1bfcb558dfb056af17bea94

(4359)

on October 28, 2011
at 01:05 PM

Many other proteins have this effect too.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 08:22 AM

I agree with Stabby. What feeds cancer is good for your cell too and what kills it kills your cell to. We should aim to optimize liver function and immune system and cancer will not develop.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 08:20 AM

Mhm... Draonfly, you mean, you don't have kefir grains ?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 08:20 AM

Dragonfly, thx for fixing my grammar and typos. I must look into those mistakes...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 08:20 AM

MHm... that is not my experience. It probably depends on kefir strain. I did read that it should stay 24 hours at 22 C. If temperature is higher bacteria will dominate and kefir will be more acidic, on lower temperature, fungus will dominate and there will be more alcohol and CO2. There also needs to be precise ratio of grain/milk (15 milk parts on 1 grain part). After initial 24h, it should stay another 24-48h in fridge on 10-15 C. You were probably lucky or have perfect environment or ... are satisfied with less then optimal taste.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on October 28, 2011
at 02:46 AM

Are cheesy gold chains paleo?

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on October 28, 2011
at 02:40 AM

Kefir is sooooo easy! I make LAZY kefir. I just add some previously made kefir to raw goats milk (or storebought kefir, if I don't have any), shake it, and leave it in a jar on the counter for 12-18 hours. The *key* is not to leave it for too long. Yogurt is much more temperature sensitive.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:58 AM

Here is an excellent info: http://www.windward.org/ush/cheese.htm

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:57 AM

Hard is soft which stayed for few weeks in a fridge in salty water covered by rock :) You can make soft one with all kind of stuff including neetle, vitamin C, etc... I dind't use Renet, there is alternative here, I think its something from fungus. Its also good idea to put that cheese another 3-6 months to stay in hard pressed organic olive oil ... that has so strong taste that 1cm^3 block is all you need to go insane :)

363d0a0277a8b61ada3a24ab3ad85d5a

(4642)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:40 AM

I love this series by Sean Croxton - it has been super informative.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:39 AM

I hope Quilt's vote counts soon because I gave you your first. Just saying when you say Plus one.... give one....

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:37 AM

Cheese? Really. What kind? Soft or hard? Rennet or not?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:35 AM

Saving your hunt for the next morning may lead to you being subject to a cave bear reset :)

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:28 AM

Plus one stabby.....totally agree with the A1 vs A2 issue. Keith woodford's book the devil in milk. Great book.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:28 AM

^^Humour.......

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:24 AM

Its not that easy. Temperatures is crucial to be precise. I succeeded only few times, to make a good one. Contrary, I can make tasty cheese without a problem any time.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:22 AM

+infinity .....

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:15 AM

"Feeding cancer" is kind of the argument that people make who want to hate on something. Testosterone 'feeds" cancer and when you castrate a man it slows its growth. Carbs "feed" cancer, so let's all be Inuit. Protein "feeds" cancer, so we need to eat like Cambpell's rats, http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/09/curious-case-of-campbells-rats-does.html What Chris demonstrated is that what is bad after a tumor has established itself isn't necessarily what's bad prior to it. The one thing I'm concerned about is that too much IGF1 from exogenous sources -could- shorten telomeres. Possibly.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:59 PM

I will be making kefir for the first time this winter. Very excited.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:54 PM

I agree with you totally. IGF1 is seen in high levels in healthy young people. But it is also seen to feed cancer I've been told. It causes increased lean tissue growth as well. So much to think about.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:45 PM

I have made the point before that getting sufficient magnesium increases IGF1, but appears to be anti-aging and anti-cancer, for other reasons probably, so it's not quite so simple. IGF1 is a vitality-promoting molecule, people with hormonal problems have diminished serum IGF1, it's certainly not the issue that the lower the better. A better argument would be that a properly functioning body produces the correct amount of IGF1 and exogenous IGF1 could potentially be problematic. I can't say if it is or not, though.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:44 PM

I have made the point before that getting sufficient magnesium increases IGF1, but appears to be anti-aging and anti-cancer, for other reasons problem, so it's not quite so simple. IGF1 is a vitality-promoting molecule, people with hormonal problems have diminished serum IGF1, it's certainly not the issue that the lower the better. A better argument would be that a properly functioning body produces the correct amount of IGF1 and exogenous IGF1 could potentially be problematic. I can't say if it is or not, though.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:36 PM

Sadly, 5 months didn't work for me. I'm limited to ghee and heavy cream although I cheat a little.

8508fec4bae4a580d1e1b807058fee8e

(6244)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:27 PM

Actually I'm an O and since going Paleo I healed my lactose intolerance probably due to gluten intolerance and after 30 days of elimination, I was able to reintroduce eat dairy (including cheese, whole milk, and ice cream).

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:25 PM

OK, me too except leave off the yogurt. :-))

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:22 PM

Robb would kick you out of his tribe when you tried to inject him with female pregnancy hormones...

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:19 PM

Did you read the letter you linked?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:17 PM

Funny Robb Wolf just tweeted this too. Looks like i have good company. Id rather be in his tribe than the dudes up above this comment.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:16 PM

Okay, Matthew, but I killed something yesterday and tore a chunk off when I got up today.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 27, 2011
at 10:53 PM

Nance, might be a bit hard to hunt and kill 50 grams of animal protein within 30 minutes of waking up :)

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on October 27, 2011
at 10:51 PM

Well, I don't actually agree although I smiled at your answer paleo2.0. LR and HCG are paleo, it's just that nowadays we have to do it on purpose when it used to be what you got when you hunted and gathered.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 27, 2011
at 10:50 PM

plus one..... Paleo2.0

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on October 27, 2011
at 10:45 PM

Probably more so than Leptin Resets and HCG diets.

  • Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

    asked by

    (25477)
  • Views
    1.7K
  • Last Activity
    1280D AGO
Frontpage book

Get FREE instant access to our Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!

13 Answers

11
32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:36 PM

Screw the paleo label, give me moderate amounts of good, tasty dairy.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:22 AM

+infinity .....

Medium avatar

(10611)

on October 21, 2012
at 02:17 PM

My homemade yogurt came out more like Greek when I used Greek for starter. My yogurt may not be paleo, but it's more paleo than coconut and fish oil. Healthier too.

7f8bc7ce5c34aae50408d31812c839b0

(2698)

on October 21, 2012
at 02:55 AM

Yep. Butter ghee and hwc all the way.

8
Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:50 PM

Just like certain aspects of grains, dairy appears to have potentially problematic components, however just like with grains, there are probably different tiers of danger depending on type. I just finished watching Sean Croxton talking about A1 vs. A2 dairy, A2 dairy can be said to be more in accordance with our biology than A1, just like white rice seems to be better tolerated than modern wheat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIEpfYHS5pU

Whether or not dairy is paleo at all is a matter of opinion, depending on what you mean by paleo. But whether or not it is bad probably depends on the type and amount consumed. A2 appears to be better than A1 and raw appears to be better than pasteurized http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/raw-milk-is-tied-to-lower-risk-of-asthma-allergies-in-children/ (maybe, it's correlative data, but without significant confounders), and grass-fed is better than grain-fed. So if we were to look for evidence to implicate bovine milk then we would have to be very specific about which types we were talking about.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:28 AM

Plus one stabby.....totally agree with the A1 vs A2 issue. Keith woodford's book the devil in milk. Great book.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:39 AM

I hope Quilt's vote counts soon because I gave you your first. Just saying when you say Plus one.... give one....

363d0a0277a8b61ada3a24ab3ad85d5a

(4642)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:40 AM

I love this series by Sean Croxton - it has been super informative.

7
0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:17 AM

Thank you for the link, I had a read of it and it is very interesting.

From my reading of it:

  • This is a research letter, a published update of ongoing research work rather than a full research paper.

  • In a recent issue of Nutrition, intolerance to bovine milk of some patients with celiac disease was reported.

  • A subset of people with celiac do not respond to a gluten-free diet due to reactions to bovine milk proteins.

  • A section of the amino acid chain (an epitope) forming the casein proteins is very similar to a section of the gluten protein.

  • The serum IgA response of patients with celiac disease to bovine milk could be related to gliadins and caseins sharing epitopes recognized by antigliadin IgA antibodies.

  • In some people with celiac disease milk proteins cause inflammatory responses in the gut.

If you have celiac disease and do not fully respond to a strict gluten-free diet the this is worth thinking about. Other people with celiac do not seem to react to milk proteins. Most people do not have celiac disease.

  • "...some other dietary proteins, such as those of cow's milk, induce celiac disease-like symptoms in some patients with celiac disease."

If you have not developed T-cell mediated celiac disease though gluten exposure, would you develop IgA antibodies targeting gluten like peptides in casein proteins?

I do not think this research letter is a good rational for everyone to avoid cows milk or other dairy products (There are other possible reasons). Or to provide as a link to support the statement that milk is not "paleo". Especially one that most people will not be able to access.

How can milk be "paleo" anyway? It is almost a definition of "not paleo" :)

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on October 29, 2011
at 03:10 PM

Thank you, Matthew for distilling the real points of the paper.

6
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:36 PM

Goat milk is probably paleo. Also, it's not like celiac disease is a reference to normal people. There is also the probability that something else influences an allergy to milk. Gluten could probably induce milk allergy, but there are indices that the opposite could also happen:

The major food antigens in CD [celiac disease] are gliadin and similar prolamines from rye and barley. In active disease increased serum antibodies not only against gliadin but also against CM proteins are seen [17]. However, direct evidence for CM (cows milk) protein allergy in CD is lacking. Most exposed healthy individuals have low levels of antibodies against various food antigens [17,18]. The probably explanation of this physiological phenomenon is that a small fraction of food proteins passes undegraded across the gut barrier [19], and thereby presents to the immune system with subsequent production of antibodies.

From: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2249.2007.03298.x/full

That said, bovine milk was probably here for a very long time and we did have time to adapt. Some evidence suggest that early humans couldn't digest milk.

It's much more probable that bovine milk is too much industrialized and once you have normal cow on normal pasture and omit wheat from the diet, results would be different.

Dairy is beneficial on multiple levels, on the other hand, kefir particularly.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:57 AM

Hard is soft which stayed for few weeks in a fridge in salty water covered by rock :) You can make soft one with all kind of stuff including neetle, vitamin C, etc... I dind't use Renet, there is alternative here, I think its something from fungus. Its also good idea to put that cheese another 3-6 months to stay in hard pressed organic olive oil ... that has so strong taste that 1cm^3 block is all you need to go insane :)

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:59 PM

I will be making kefir for the first time this winter. Very excited.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:58 AM

Here is an excellent info: http://www.windward.org/ush/cheese.htm

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 08:20 AM

Dragonfly, thx for fixing my grammar and typos. I must look into those mistakes...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 08:20 AM

Mhm... Draonfly, you mean, you don't have kefir grains ?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:24 AM

Its not that easy. Temperatures is crucial to be precise. I succeeded only few times, to make a good one. Contrary, I can make tasty cheese without a problem any time.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:37 AM

Cheese? Really. What kind? Soft or hard? Rennet or not?

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on October 28, 2011
at 02:40 AM

Kefir is sooooo easy! I make LAZY kefir. I just add some previously made kefir to raw goats milk (or storebought kefir, if I don't have any), shake it, and leave it in a jar on the counter for 12-18 hours. The *key* is not to leave it for too long. Yogurt is much more temperature sensitive.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 08:20 AM

MHm... that is not my experience. It probably depends on kefir strain. I did read that it should stay 24 hours at 22 C. If temperature is higher bacteria will dominate and kefir will be more acidic, on lower temperature, fungus will dominate and there will be more alcohol and CO2. There also needs to be precise ratio of grain/milk (15 milk parts on 1 grain part). After initial 24h, it should stay another 24-48h in fridge on 10-15 C. You were probably lucky or have perfect environment or ... are satisfied with less then optimal taste.

5
0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:36 PM

I am so ridiculously on the fence about dairy. Some say it promotes IGf1 thus aging. Other say the fats in dairy help calcium absorption. Milk is so complex. From the type of animal, to the food it eats to the way it is processed.

I'll prolly stick with cheese and cultured dairy as that ferments the IGF1 out as per Mat Lalonde. But since I can get quality raw milk, I will for sure get that from time to time and feed that to my family. Oh, I also make butter which I love.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:44 PM

I have made the point before that getting sufficient magnesium increases IGF1, but appears to be anti-aging and anti-cancer, for other reasons problem, so it's not quite so simple. IGF1 is a vitality-promoting molecule, people with hormonal problems have diminished serum IGF1, it's certainly not the issue that the lower the better. A better argument would be that a properly functioning body produces the correct amount of IGF1 and exogenous IGF1 could potentially be problematic. I can't say if it is or not, though.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:45 PM

I have made the point before that getting sufficient magnesium increases IGF1, but appears to be anti-aging and anti-cancer, for other reasons probably, so it's not quite so simple. IGF1 is a vitality-promoting molecule, people with hormonal problems have diminished serum IGF1, it's certainly not the issue that the lower the better. A better argument would be that a properly functioning body produces the correct amount of IGF1 and exogenous IGF1 could potentially be problematic. I can't say if it is or not, though.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:54 PM

I agree with you totally. IGF1 is seen in high levels in healthy young people. But it is also seen to feed cancer I've been told. It causes increased lean tissue growth as well. So much to think about.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on October 28, 2011
at 12:15 AM

"Feeding cancer" is kind of the argument that people make who want to hate on something. Testosterone 'feeds" cancer and when you castrate a man it slows its growth. Carbs "feed" cancer, so let's all be Inuit. Protein "feeds" cancer, so we need to eat like Cambpell's rats, http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/09/curious-case-of-campbells-rats-does.html What Chris demonstrated is that what is bad after a tumor has established itself isn't necessarily what's bad prior to it. The one thing I'm concerned about is that too much IGF1 from exogenous sources -could- shorten telomeres. Possibly.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 28, 2011
at 08:22 AM

I agree with Stabby. What feeds cancer is good for your cell too and what kills it kills your cell to. We should aim to optimize liver function and immune system and cancer will not develop.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 28, 2011
at 02:32 PM

I am truly glad you two chimed in on the cancer feeding properties. This has been one of the major arguments against milk and unfermented dairy. Your points are well taken!

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on October 30, 2011
at 05:54 PM

Huh, so serum IGF-1 concentrations consistently correlate with longer telomeres. Guess my hypothesis is bunk. All I can really conclude so far is that if you have cancer you shouldn't consume dairy.

4
8508fec4bae4a580d1e1b807058fee8e

on October 27, 2011
at 11:51 PM

No, but neither are Ipods, Ipads, and smartphones - and most people aren't going to give those up! :)

Most domesticated animals and produce are very different from their wild ancestor, so as with everything the individual has to test their own tolerance!

Most of us do not live among hunter gatherer tribes so we do the best we can:

1) pastured meat/eggs, wild seafood, and game meat

2) organic produce (ideally Farmer's Markers or locally-grown)

3) pastured dairy (depending on the individual)

People tolerate dairy in varying amounts - none, goat, cow, buffalo, yak, etc.

Medium avatar

(8239)

on October 28, 2011
at 03:07 PM

Excellent points, all. Add my Five Finger shoes to the list of my life as actually lived, and chosen, and enjoyed.

3
7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on October 27, 2011
at 11:16 PM

Do I think it's paleo? No. Do I occasionally eat butter, yogurt, and other dairy products? Yes.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:25 PM

OK, me too except leave off the yogurt. :-))

3
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on October 27, 2011
at 10:51 PM

I don't think it's paleo but I see it as a bridging culture between paleo and neolithic since wandering groups became herders long before settling into agriculture. It's a moot point for me, since I was lactose intolerant as early as age 5.

2
E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

on October 28, 2011
at 12:21 AM

Not particularly, but it can definitely work in the "ancestral" diet template. My ancestors are all from the herders and fishermen of northern Europe. I'm not lactose intolerant, and so can handle some dairy. I don't eat it frequently, because of a casein intolerance that couples with the severe gluten issues I've got also. If I rotate things like pastured butter and raw cream in and out of my diet (mostly out, to be fair), I do okay.

I think pastured, raw dairy products are probably okay for some people who can handle the casein/whey/lactose, but based on statistics that number worldwide is probably not all that high. I would generally say raw/pastured bovine milk is more paleo than pasteurized/homogenized/conventional dairy, and is somewhere on the spectrum between strict paleo and WAPF. I certainly feel that it's more paleo than eating grains.

1
93ae9f2d376e5426e891a9b58d8302fa

(2936)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:10 PM

To answer the question, no. No dairy after weening at least.

Is it possible for lactose intolerance to come and go? There were times when I would get hives, and through elimination diet I sorta pinned the problem down to dairy. Then I lapse back into dairy consumption and everything would be okay for a year or two. Then more hives. That and hay fever were my only allergies. Is that lactose intolerance?

0
3eca93d2e56dfcd768197dc5a50944f2

(11697)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:06 PM

I eat goat dairy, but not most of cow dairy, and none of animal milk. I eat lactose-free (hard) goat cheeses, and I make my own home-made probiotic lactose-free goat yoghurt (fermented for 20 hours). Goats have a different casein protein to bovine which is more tolerable by humans. I still can eat easily cow butter and lactose-free cow sour cream though. But cheese/yoghurt is problematic for me when it's bovine in origin, but it's ok if it's goat. But as I said, lactosed milk from any kind of animal, is problematic for me.

-2
38fca13acabddf7b9c54098507e4041a

on October 27, 2011
at 11:13 PM

No it isn't. Blood type is a consideration though, Os can't generally tolerate dairy while other blood types can have it in small amounts.

8508fec4bae4a580d1e1b807058fee8e

(6244)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:27 PM

Actually I'm an O and since going Paleo I healed my lactose intolerance probably due to gluten intolerance and after 30 days of elimination, I was able to reintroduce eat dairy (including cheese, whole milk, and ice cream).

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on October 27, 2011
at 11:36 PM

Sadly, 5 months didn't work for me. I'm limited to ghee and heavy cream although I cheat a little.

Answer Question


Get FREE instant access to our
Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!