29

votes

(Meta) Should we require comments on downvoting?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created January 06, 2011 at 8:20 PM

I'm thoroughly frustrated by a recent rash of downvotes for no discernible reason.

Don't agree with my answer, fine, but man up and explain why.

Maybe we can all learn something from it?

It's ridiculous that downvoting is so easy to do, anonymous and seemingly petty.

I have a anti-fructose stance, there are some people like Matthew who disagree and will discuss it when it comes up in questions. But outside of those questions, I feel like downvotes are happening without merit or disagreement with that particular answer, but out of spite or dislike of another answer.

I propose for the betterment of people who are wrong, including myself, that we require comments so that a learning based discussion can happen and either

  • change opinion thru education for either party

Or

  • respectfully disagree

What's your opinion on this matter? I think the simplicity of childish unhelpful downvoting only hurts the spreading of knowledge, which hopefully is why we are all here.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 20, 2011
at 01:01 PM

Stephen- I was going to bring that up, but the comments were already so long as it is. Your question and this issue are not one in the same. Also, I wouldn't create a term called "sympathy" upvote. If you vote up an answer because you don't understand why it's downvoted, that's called...an upvote. It's pejorative to call it "sympathy voting". Might as well call it "irrational wimphead voting".

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 20, 2011
at 11:22 AM

OQ said man up has nothing to do with sympathy votes, doesn't mention or request them, that's kamal's creation. Don't set up strawmen to attack me just because you disagree with the original premise. Disagreeing is fine.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 20, 2011
at 11:17 AM

Perhaps you should channel YOUR energy a little more positive and helpful, you have more downvotes than upvotes.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 20, 2011
at 11:16 AM

It doesn't bother you if you try to help out and people anonymously say that your answers are not only not helpful but bad? I'm not a sociopath, I care what people think. And I DONATE MY TIME to helping people on here.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 20, 2011
at 05:55 AM

Come to think of it there really isn't any "necessary cruelty" so all cruelty gets my down vote.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 20, 2011
at 03:44 AM

1-800-FUCK-YOURSELF

39a1a0bc7855c084ac59df60fdf9c0dd

(1505)

on April 20, 2011
at 03:22 AM

Dear God - how much time have you spent obsessing about this???

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 19, 2011
at 10:45 PM

All you dairy drinkers aren't sympathetic about dairy makin my tummy hurt, don't downvote me show sympathy! Just kidding, I agree with Melissa even though she has a whip(or club)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 10:27 PM

(p.s. guys who have french romance heroines in their avatars aren't typically concerned with manliness)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 10:26 PM

Oh, mighty arbiter of manliness, hear my plea! Verbal jousting is fun and all, but I'm sure we can just agree to disagree. I don't think Paleohacks will fall apart if people have different opinions :)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 10:06 PM

it's ironic the original question said "man up." Nothing less manly than sympathy upvotes.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 10:02 PM

Agreed, on all counts. Bad/terse/vacuous answers don't get any votes typically, and troll/rude/mean answers get downvotes.

C2502365891cbcc8af2d1cf1d7b0e9fc

(2437)

on April 19, 2011
at 09:52 PM

I down voted you out of spite. Get over yourself.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 09:33 PM

Hey, you're that guy with a low omega 6:3 ratio, right? That gets an upvote.

8e3782b68e033763485472f414f507a5

(2433)

on April 19, 2011
at 09:31 PM

You people are hilarious.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 09:25 PM

Dude, just because Melissa-HuntGatherLove thinks something is lame doesn't mean it's the law. I can upvote an answer because of its nice sentence structure, because it reminded me of a childhood memory, or because I didn't think it should have been downvoted. If there's something in the paleohacks bylaws outlawing having your own voting criteria, I'd gladly change my practice. But not because you think it's lame. And I don't care that you downvoted the answer, rather I used the existing voting tabulation to influence my vote. Bayesian statistics, Hadouken!

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 09:16 PM

so you upvoted something not because it was good, but because you didn't like that I downvoted it? That's just lame.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 09:10 PM

Why exactly is it rude or lame to upvote what has been downvoted? You may have your own decision criteria for how you vote, but that does not apply to everyone. I didn't agree with Dr. K's answer logic back on that other thread, but did not think it was deserving of a downvote. Hence upvoting it. It doesn't matter if the downvote was anonymous or clearly explained, someone could still upvote it. Our forefathers fought hard for our right to vote as we see fit.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 03:43 PM

and when they are anon, how do you know anyway?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 03:42 PM

"rs that are downvoted because the person doesnt like the topic, person, or other contentious issues. " I don't think that's a huge problem.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 03:42 PM

spiteful? How is it spiteful to this something is deserving of downvoting?

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 19, 2011
at 03:19 PM

Do you then propose we just ignore the spiteful downvotes? the ones that have no clear reason on good answers? I understand your opinion on stupid stuff, and absolutely agree that stupid stuff shouldnt be "corrected", but what about legitimate quality answers that are downvoted because the person doesnt like the topic, person, or other contentious issues.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 19, 2011
at 03:17 PM

people downvote because they dont like whats being discussed, or even if something is idiotic. sometimes they do it out of spite even on great answers, how to you propose thats resolved? because it hurts the educational bend of our community here.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 01:58 PM

people should downvote when they feel something is stupid, no apologies

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 01:58 PM

sympathy voting is just lame. Survival of the fittest.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on April 19, 2011
at 01:24 PM

@ Melissa, "sympathy" voting is now considered rude? I can't tell if your post is tongue-in-cheek or not. One reason I rarely vote down is that a down vote will usually attract a sympathy upvote, which counts 5 times as much as the original downvote. It's usually better to just ignore the posts I don't like, or write a comment without voting.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 19, 2011
at 01:16 PM

So how do you feel anonymous downvotes should be handled, and I'm talking about downvotes on legitimate answers, not goofy or negative things.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 02:35 AM

For example, how I just upvoted your answer here for no particular reason.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 02:25 AM

Hey, just stalking the moderator here. I don't think it's rude (biased, obviously) as one can cast one's vote for most any reason. Like if you thought the post was neutral, and it was downvoted, might as well upvote it to get it back to neutral.

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on April 13, 2011
at 05:00 PM

All votes should have an explanation why. We are all here to learn from each other. Right?

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on March 28, 2011
at 06:08 PM

@Ed I wholeheartedly disagree. Implying the only thing to be concerned about anywhere is real wars in insulting and IMO wrong. We don't discuss wars here.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on March 28, 2011
at 04:17 PM

@Stephen-Aegis, Kilton's comment, while you disagree with it, was not out of bounds. However, your ad hominem reply was inappropriate. If you're going to invite comments, then don't flame the commenters.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on March 27, 2011
at 06:37 PM

This would be slightly better, yet the immature downvotes would be no different. Anonymous reasons would be just as empty and yeah huh , Nuh uh wars. If you're not convinced of what you know Don't vote. If someone's wrong and you aren't man enough to stand up and help everyone learn, Then gtfo. I agree with you here.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on March 27, 2011
at 06:33 PM

@kilton: wars? Omg get off the Internet quick! /sarcasm. Read my question, I clearly explain why this bothers me. Go troll elsewhere.

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on March 27, 2011
at 05:44 PM

I don't only upvote the ones I agree with. Sometimes I will upvote the ones that bring interesting points to think about or great questions.

8e3782b68e033763485472f414f507a5

(2433)

on March 27, 2011
at 05:43 PM

Is it conceivable to you that you're letting this get to you too much? You're aware that wars are being fought around the world, right? (Real ones.)

8e3782b68e033763485472f414f507a5

(2433)

on March 27, 2011
at 05:43 PM

Is it conceivable to you that you're letting this get to you too much? You're aware that wars are being fought around the world, right?

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on March 27, 2011
at 05:40 PM

Maybe there would be a chance of writing anonymously basic response, like there is an option to give reason for editing? so one could write simple things like "strong disagreement" "wrong assumptions" or whatever?

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on March 26, 2011
at 03:00 AM

Another anonymous downvote. Sigh.

F040035b2008ec80b205481afbd39ad4

(1837)

on March 11, 2011
at 09:06 PM

Agreed - that is why I offered several classifications. I am not sure if it is workable to have such a system, but when something is 'demonstrably factually wrong' that is a good reason to downvote. If it is a simple 'disagreement' with the post then you might also downvote it. The value to the readers is in being able to differentiate the two. You could use the same rationale to classify upvotes.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on March 11, 2011
at 05:44 PM

Just because you disagree with a post, it does not mean that the post is "wrong" or worthy of a downvote (although, granted, some posts are demonstrably factually wrong). Most posts are statements of opinion, experience, or philosophy--not fact. In the past, I've UP-voted posts that I disagreed with, just because they were honest and well-written.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on March 10, 2011
at 08:48 PM

Hah! Another anonymous downvote to this question! So funny

F040035b2008ec80b205481afbd39ad4

(1837)

on March 10, 2011
at 06:32 PM

Yeah - maybe 'disagree' should require some supplemental text (perhaps in the 'comments'). Tt is an important to be able to disagree in situations where somebody is factually wrong or possibly even dangerous. Ask first, vote later seems like a good approach.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 10, 2011
at 04:50 PM

Definitly not for "Disagreed". If we don't agree with the post, we should first ask for an explanation and then act. Also off topics are sometimes really funny and are not so common that they would effect the threads readability (my observations). Actually I'm going with "Ask first, vote later" no matter the reason.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on March 10, 2011
at 04:01 PM

Fortunately most people on this forum seem far more mature than those on many forums I've frequented. By and large, we're adults and act like adults.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on March 10, 2011
at 03:59 PM

Even if I already know the answer, if someone's answer completely answers the question in a beneficial way to the Asker, I'll upvote. It encourages those individuals that take the time to help someone that may know less than you personally.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on March 10, 2011
at 03:56 PM

This is one of the reasons I hate the anonymity. The immaturity it allows.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 10, 2011
at 05:49 PM

That is my experience as well, Ambimorph.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on January 08, 2011
at 03:15 PM

Hmm, I'm still not seeing that. If I click the envelope, and then the responses tab, I get a list of comments on my questions and answers, but this thread is not in there.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 07, 2011
at 08:09 PM

After you click your envelope, go to the responses tab...

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on January 07, 2011
at 05:22 PM

No, you don't get notification of comments to comments except on questions/answers you wrote. I find this annoying, too. For example, if someone writes further in this comment thread about this, you'll be notified, but I won't.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on January 07, 2011
at 05:19 PM

In fact, honestly, my pattern of upvoting tends to be less "fair" than my downvoting. For example, I tend to upvote answers that share my perspective, and not those that don't. But I think that's natural.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on January 07, 2011
at 05:12 PM

True. Not being upvoted is way more costly than being downvoted, though.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 07, 2011
at 02:58 PM

I'm saying mail symbol, it's an envelope.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 07, 2011
at 02:57 PM

@wcc Paul: yeah you can see comments to comments using te little mail symbol next to your name up top, I use I daily...

691f120a3e7a1a036845d105d86c99a3

(3641)

on January 07, 2011
at 03:14 AM

i upvoted this because i get annoyed at this phenomenon as well.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 07, 2011
at 02:04 AM

@Stephen, I think Ben meant that it would be nice if we could see if any further comments have come under an answer in which we have left a comment (i.e., comments to our comments). I believe the only way to do this is to look at your own recent activity by going to your user page and clicking the tab "recent" just to the right of the tab "stats" and then going to each of the threads "manually," so to speak. I do that every once in a while to see if any of the conversations I've been taking part in have been continued. (Hmmm: Will Ben see this comment? ...)

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 07, 2011
at 02:03 AM

Will Ben see that comment?

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 07, 2011
at 02:03 AM

@Stephen, I think Ben meant that it would be nice if we could see if any further comments have come under an answer in which we have left a comment (i.e., comments to our *comments*). I believe the only way to do this is to look at your own recent activity by going to your user page and clicking the tab "recent" just to the right of the tab "stats" and then going to each of the threads "manually," so to speak. I do that every once in a while to see if any of the conversations I've been taking part in have been continued.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 07, 2011
at 01:54 AM

Personally Adam, I enjoy the work you put into your answers. It makes me smile.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on January 07, 2011
at 01:52 AM

That is, if we actually want to change anything. I'm a "slow to change code" sort... I like social engineering, but there is not always a technical solution.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 07, 2011
at 01:07 AM

@mark: I read it on the Internet, it must be true.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on January 07, 2011
at 01:06 AM

I once received a downvote because the voter did not like my formatting. Darn that *crazy **font*** system. 8^)

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 07, 2011
at 01:06 AM

@Ben, use the little mail symbol next to your name up top, and then upvote to say thanks :)

6fa48935d439390e223b9a053a62c981

(1676)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:55 AM

Interesting point, +1. For me to vote, I really have to feel that I've learned something (or been offended, in the case of a downvote). Although I visit the site daily, most questions and answers don't move me to one or the other degree. Are my expectations too high? What would an appropriate "voting threshold" be?

6fa48935d439390e223b9a053a62c981

(1676)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:46 AM

A high rep does NOT mean that you know what you're talking about, or that you are always right. It just means that you've received a lot of votes. Question enough, answer enough, visit the site enough and your rep will go up. This is not the same as getting a paper published in a refereed journal.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:41 AM

But are they still voting more? I would guess not. Only 194 of them have the civic duty badge for voting 300+ times. 26 of us have it. That's 0.8% of them, 2.4% of us. NB: I know nothing about computers and have no experience with any other Stack Overflow sites. Anyhow, all of that said . . . +1 for this answer!

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:38 AM

It's funny, I looked at that link Adam just gave us above in the comments to Stephen's question, and it's remarkable how many votes there are on questions and answers at that site. And a lot of the users have massive scores compared to us. It's not because the site has been around *that* much longer, though: just a year and a half, it seems. The answer is that they just have a ton more users: 23,105 compared to our 1,078. [Continued]

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:35 AM

i've still never up or down voted something. i just dont see the point. if its something im interested in i answer or comment, otherwise i move on. PS: i would like a way to get a maybe daily notification of comments ive made that have then been commented on, like they have for answers.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:31 AM

Id also like to see a minimum rep to downvote. Prove you know what youre talking about before you say someone else doesnt.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:28 AM

hah, those only mildly annoy me, like the people that take the time to post, hey Great Answer, yet the answer is sitting at 0... DOH! Still, great point Ed.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:27 AM

upvoted Adam, great find!

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:16 AM

http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/135/encouraging-people-to-explain-down-votes might be key.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:11 AM

I'm diggin through http://meta.stackoverflow.com/search?q=downvote and trying to see what is possible.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:14 PM

Retaliation would be moderated because they'd have to explain why they were downvoting. At best they could decide to not upvote you. Poorly explained downvotes could be deleted. I'd happily take responsibility for removing junk downvotes.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:11 PM

If downvotes cost alot more people would think twice, but then really stupid stuff wouldn't be downvoted since it would be too strong a penalty. Removing the anonymity and even the penalty would allow for moderation of petty downvotes while retaining the intention, scoring knowledge for the betterment of all of us.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:09 PM

-1 point per down is not painful. Somedays I get 100s of points. If I decided to be petty I could downvote literally everything someone posted and still be one of the top points here, the points are meaningless other than the context of moderation or showing that you have been around here a while with alot of good answers

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:06 PM

We moderate garbage around here :), huge props to Patrik for enforcing that too.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:05 PM

We don't get paid. Some of us invest our time to help others. Would you enjoy volunteering if you were anonymously mocked or chastised for your efforts? I'm not so thin skinned that I'll stop helping around here, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:03 PM

I have downvoted for those things too, you'll find my comment below chastising them as well. I've even ha one case I upvoted after an edit

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:02 PM

Upvote means, I agree. Why would we need every comment to say yes that's correct? It's redundant. Downvoting means it's wrong but doesn't help anyone learn from it. The whole point of this request Is to ensure learning for the poster or the readers.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:00 PM

I'm not saying I cry about it! But when I bother to answer, it usually involves some thought and time on my part. Downvotes without reason can leave one feeling under-appreciated.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 06, 2011
at 10:46 PM

I agree. I downvote because of tone and rudeness.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 06, 2011
at 10:26 PM

This might not even be an option for this platform...

5841391284e7af8c495c54bd90d3a795

(2764)

on January 06, 2011
at 09:10 PM

I agree it's frustrating but I don't know that your proposed rule is enforceable in the underlying code. I suppose a moderator might have visibility into anonymous down-voters and be able to discipline/correct/enforce such things but I don't know who'd want to take the time.

1ec4e7ca085b7f8d5821529653e1e35a

(5506)

on January 06, 2011
at 08:46 PM

upvote! and agree!

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 08:21 PM

Feel free to downvote this, as long as you leave a comment as to why ;)

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15 Answers

best answer

6
B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

on January 07, 2011
at 12:11 AM

If you want to dig into the Deep Nerdity of it, you might want to check out this:

http://meta.stackoverflow.com/search?q=downvote

I think the discussion there might help us know what is possible in the StackOverflow programming schema.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on January 07, 2011
at 01:52 AM

That is, if we actually want to change anything. I'm a "slow to change code" sort... I like social engineering, but there is not always a technical solution.

14
100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on January 06, 2011
at 08:56 PM

I agree that downvoting can reduce morale, especially when you can't tell why it happened, and it can leave a bitter taste. And you're right that anonymity encourages childish behaviour in people. (My favourite example of this is rude drivers.)

OTOH, I do downvote sometimes, and when I do I always feel glad I can do it anonymously because I don't want people to downvote me simply to retaliate. For that matter, I don't want people to feel socially obligated to upvote each other either. I think votes would lose meaning if people's personal relationships got involved.

Also, leaving a comment in some cases could cause unnecessary tension, especially if people simply write "because that's stupid" or something, when otherwise they might have kept their mouths shut.

I do wish I could think of a better solution, though, because I don't think it is fair to downvote when it is simply a matter of differing perspectives, but I do think it is fair to downvote when you think something is just plain wrong.

It's a good question!

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:14 PM

Retaliation would be moderated because they'd have to explain why they were downvoting. At best they could decide to not upvote you. Poorly explained downvotes could be deleted. I'd happily take responsibility for removing junk downvotes.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on January 07, 2011
at 05:19 PM

In fact, honestly, my pattern of upvoting tends to be less "fair" than my downvoting. For example, I tend to upvote answers that share my perspective, and not those that don't. But I think that's natural.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on January 07, 2011
at 05:12 PM

True. Not being upvoted is way more costly than being downvoted, though.

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on March 27, 2011
at 05:40 PM

Maybe there would be a chance of writing anonymously basic response, like there is an option to give reason for editing? so one could write simple things like "strong disagreement" "wrong assumptions" or whatever?

13
6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:12 AM

I think that there's remarkably little negativism on this site, considering the diversity of opinions and personalities involved. If you tallied all the down-votes, they're miniscule compared to the total number of up-votes.

The real problem is non-voting, not down-voting. Many PaleoHackers don't bother to vote at all, either up or down, or only vote rarely. There are over 10,000 posts on this site. If you can't find a few hundred entries that you either like or dislike enough to vote on, you're not trying very hard.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:28 AM

hah, those only mildly annoy me, like the people that take the time to post, hey Great Answer, yet the answer is sitting at 0... DOH! Still, great point Ed.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:41 AM

But are they still voting more? I would guess not. Only 194 of them have the civic duty badge for voting 300+ times. 26 of us have it. That's 0.8% of them, 2.4% of us. NB: I know nothing about computers and have no experience with any other Stack Overflow sites. Anyhow, all of that said . . . +1 for this answer!

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:38 AM

It's funny, I looked at that link Adam just gave us above in the comments to Stephen's question, and it's remarkable how many votes there are on questions and answers at that site. And a lot of the users have massive scores compared to us. It's not because the site has been around *that* much longer, though: just a year and a half, it seems. The answer is that they just have a ton more users: 23,105 compared to our 1,078. [Continued]

6fa48935d439390e223b9a053a62c981

(1676)

on January 07, 2011
at 12:55 AM

Interesting point, +1. For me to vote, I really have to feel that I've learned something (or been offended, in the case of a downvote). Although I visit the site daily, most questions and answers don't move me to one or the other degree. Are my expectations too high? What would an appropriate "voting threshold" be?

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on March 10, 2011
at 03:59 PM

Even if I already know the answer, if someone's answer completely answers the question in a beneficial way to the Asker, I'll upvote. It encourages those individuals that take the time to help someone that may know less than you personally.

12
6fa48935d439390e223b9a053a62c981

(1676)

on January 06, 2011
at 09:38 PM

I've downvoted primarily because I thought the answer was rude or disrespectful. If the downvote was public in that case it would clearly invite retaliation. That being said, I think that anonymous downvotes do have a place in the system.

I believe I was once downvoted in a fit of pique simply because the questioner did not like my answer (he said so in comments), and that is frustrating. But at least he told me. So I hear what you're saying, Stephen. But I also think that the system benefits from anonymous votes more than it's harmed. I like that when you downvote the system prompts you to consider a comment for justification, but I don't think it should be mandatory.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 06, 2011
at 10:46 PM

I agree. I downvote because of tone and rudeness.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on January 07, 2011
at 01:06 AM

I once received a downvote because the voter did not like my formatting. Darn that *crazy **font*** system. 8^)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 07, 2011
at 01:54 AM

Personally Adam, I enjoy the work you put into your answers. It makes me smile.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:03 PM

I have downvoted for those things too, you'll find my comment below chastising them as well. I've even ha one case I upvoted after an edit

8
8e3782b68e033763485472f414f507a5

(2433)

on January 06, 2011
at 09:34 PM

Only if upvotes require a comment too.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:02 PM

Upvote means, I agree. Why would we need every comment to say yes that's correct? It's redundant. Downvoting means it's wrong but doesn't help anyone learn from it. The whole point of this request Is to ensure learning for the poster or the readers.

A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

(4896)

on March 27, 2011
at 05:44 PM

I don't only upvote the ones I agree with. Sometimes I will upvote the ones that bring interesting points to think about or great questions.

6
5f0158c23fcb5636e57b4ce097784da0

(1386)

on January 06, 2011
at 09:36 PM

so we need to change the system just because someone doesn't like you? ;p

j/k of course. btw, each downvote costs the downvoter -1 points from his/her own credit. so there is at least some kind of auto-karma mechanism built in..

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:11 PM

If downvotes cost alot more people would think twice, but then really stupid stuff wouldn't be downvoted since it would be too strong a penalty. Removing the anonymity and even the penalty would allow for moderation of petty downvotes while retaining the intention, scoring knowledge for the betterment of all of us.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:09 PM

-1 point per down is not painful. Somedays I get 100s of points. If I decided to be petty I could downvote literally everything someone posted and still be one of the top points here, the points are meaningless other than the context of moderation or showing that you have been around here a while with alot of good answers

6
5e36f73c3f95eb4ea13a009f4936449f

(8280)

on January 06, 2011
at 09:29 PM

Never used Digg before eh? I've learned to not pay too much attention to up and downvotes. They had rafts of people that got their kicks up and downvoting anything related to a topic. You can try and require a reason, but you'll just get a bunch of garbage.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:06 PM

We moderate garbage around here :), huge props to Patrik for enforcing that too.

5
Af9537cfa50562b67979624e9007e12a

(1334)

on January 06, 2011
at 09:17 PM

down voting reduces morale? that sounds kind of thin skinned to me.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:00 PM

I'm not saying I cry about it! But when I bother to answer, it usually involves some thought and time on my part. Downvotes without reason can leave one feeling under-appreciated.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:05 PM

We don't get paid. Some of us invest our time to help others. Would you enjoy volunteering if you were anonymously mocked or chastised for your efforts? I'm not so thin skinned that I'll stop helping around here, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me.

4
5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on March 10, 2011
at 03:13 PM

I've just discovered that unless they are uniformly required that there is some serious potential disadvantage to leaving a comment. Apparently some are offended enough by an identifiable down vote that they will expend the effort and points to run around targeting even past posts/comments with down votes.

So, that boils down to a yes. Otherwise there is a possible penalty for people who voluntarily leave comments.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on March 10, 2011
at 03:56 PM

This is one of the reasons I hate the anonymity. The immaturity it allows.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on March 10, 2011
at 04:01 PM

Fortunately most people on this forum seem far more mature than those on many forums I've frequented. By and large, we're adults and act like adults.

2
39a1a0bc7855c084ac59df60fdf9c0dd

(1505)

on April 20, 2011
at 03:31 AM

Why not exert more energy discussing health and nutrition than getting all worked up about a point system on a forum? Some folks have way too much time on their hands.

And if anyone downvotes this without leaving their home phone number I am going to call them a very bad word

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 20, 2011
at 11:17 AM

Perhaps you should channel YOUR energy a little more positive and helpful, you have more downvotes than upvotes.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 20, 2011
at 03:44 AM

1-800-FUCK-YOURSELF

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 20, 2011
at 11:16 AM

It doesn't bother you if you try to help out and people anonymously say that your answers are not only not helpful but bad? I'm not a sociopath, I care what people think. And I DONATE MY TIME to helping people on here.

2
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 02:20 AM

No, sometimes something is idiotic and I don't want to waste my time explaining why or insulting people. It's rude to vote up just to erase such votes.

Upvoting is intended for when an answer is GOOD, not because you feel bad it got a downvote. Oh the irony of misusing the upvote because you think the downvote is being misused.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on April 19, 2011
at 01:24 PM

@ Melissa, "sympathy" voting is now considered rude? I can't tell if your post is tongue-in-cheek or not. One reason I rarely vote down is that a down vote will usually attract a sympathy upvote, which counts 5 times as much as the original downvote. It's usually better to just ignore the posts I don't like, or write a comment without voting.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 19, 2011
at 03:17 PM

people downvote because they dont like whats being discussed, or even if something is idiotic. sometimes they do it out of spite even on great answers, how to you propose thats resolved? because it hurts the educational bend of our community here.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 03:43 PM

and when they are anon, how do you know anyway?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 01:58 PM

people should downvote when they feel something is stupid, no apologies

8e3782b68e033763485472f414f507a5

(2433)

on April 19, 2011
at 09:31 PM

You people are hilarious.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 19, 2011
at 10:45 PM

All you dairy drinkers aren't sympathetic about dairy makin my tummy hurt, don't downvote me show sympathy! Just kidding, I agree with Melissa even though she has a whip(or club)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 03:42 PM

"rs that are downvoted because the person doesnt like the topic, person, or other contentious issues. " I don't think that's a huge problem.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 10:27 PM

(p.s. guys who have french romance heroines in their avatars aren't typically concerned with manliness)

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 19, 2011
at 01:16 PM

So how do you feel anonymous downvotes should be handled, and I'm talking about downvotes on legitimate answers, not goofy or negative things.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 10:26 PM

Oh, mighty arbiter of manliness, hear my plea! Verbal jousting is fun and all, but I'm sure we can just agree to disagree. I don't think Paleohacks will fall apart if people have different opinions :)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 01:58 PM

sympathy voting is just lame. Survival of the fittest.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 20, 2011
at 01:01 PM

Stephen- I was going to bring that up, but the comments were already so long as it is. Your question and this issue are not one in the same. Also, I wouldn't create a term called "sympathy" upvote. If you vote up an answer because you don't understand why it's downvoted, that's called...an upvote. It's pejorative to call it "sympathy voting". Might as well call it "irrational wimphead voting".

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 02:35 AM

For example, how I just upvoted your answer here for no particular reason.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 09:10 PM

Why exactly is it rude or lame to upvote what has been downvoted? You may have your own decision criteria for how you vote, but that does not apply to everyone. I didn't agree with Dr. K's answer logic back on that other thread, but did not think it was deserving of a downvote. Hence upvoting it. It doesn't matter if the downvote was anonymous or clearly explained, someone could still upvote it. Our forefathers fought hard for our right to vote as we see fit.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 02:25 AM

Hey, just stalking the moderator here. I don't think it's rude (biased, obviously) as one can cast one's vote for most any reason. Like if you thought the post was neutral, and it was downvoted, might as well upvote it to get it back to neutral.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 19, 2011
at 03:19 PM

Do you then propose we just ignore the spiteful downvotes? the ones that have no clear reason on good answers? I understand your opinion on stupid stuff, and absolutely agree that stupid stuff shouldnt be "corrected", but what about legitimate quality answers that are downvoted because the person doesnt like the topic, person, or other contentious issues.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 03:42 PM

spiteful? How is it spiteful to this something is deserving of downvoting?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 09:16 PM

so you upvoted something not because it was good, but because you didn't like that I downvoted it? That's just lame.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 09:25 PM

Dude, just because Melissa-HuntGatherLove thinks something is lame doesn't mean it's the law. I can upvote an answer because of its nice sentence structure, because it reminded me of a childhood memory, or because I didn't think it should have been downvoted. If there's something in the paleohacks bylaws outlawing having your own voting criteria, I'd gladly change my practice. But not because you think it's lame. And I don't care that you downvoted the answer, rather I used the existing voting tabulation to influence my vote. Bayesian statistics, Hadouken!

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on April 20, 2011
at 11:22 AM

OQ said man up has nothing to do with sympathy votes, doesn't mention or request them, that's kamal's creation. Don't set up strawmen to attack me just because you disagree with the original premise. Disagreeing is fine.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 19, 2011
at 10:06 PM

it's ironic the original question said "man up." Nothing less manly than sympathy upvotes.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 09:33 PM

Hey, you're that guy with a low omega 6:3 ratio, right? That gets an upvote.

2
A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

on March 27, 2011
at 05:49 PM

I think it would be nice to have a chance to give anonymous reason for downvoting. It would combine the best of both - give some kind of explanation to the author of the comment, and would keep a risk of retaliation at bay.

When we edit our own posts we have a chance to write short explanation of the reason for edit. Maybe there could be a similar system for downvoting? Either an empty place to write short reason, or a few ready options to choose from?

I personally downvote very rarely, it must be either offensive or somehow in direct opposition to the most basic principles of paleo living. I don't feel like responding to someone and writing truisms of the benefits of eating animals or some other basic things.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on March 27, 2011
at 06:37 PM

This would be slightly better, yet the immature downvotes would be no different. Anonymous reasons would be just as empty and yeah huh , Nuh uh wars. If you're not convinced of what you know Don't vote. If someone's wrong and you aren't man enough to stand up and help everyone learn, Then gtfo. I agree with you here.

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 19, 2011
at 09:59 PM

People here are basically thoughtful and respectful, so why make a new rule to govern us all when it is only a minority of folks who may be using the down vote incorrectly.

I have only down voted once when I saw an misogynist photo being used as a joke. I would only down vote unnecessary cruelty, meanness or extreme rudeness.

I think anonymous down voting is necessary to allow people to feel safe when doing it. I have not noticed that much down voting here despite much discussion and debate.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 19, 2011
at 10:02 PM

Agreed, on all counts. Bad/terse/vacuous answers don't get any votes typically, and troll/rude/mean answers get downvotes.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 20, 2011
at 05:55 AM

Come to think of it there really isn't any "necessary cruelty" so all cruelty gets my down vote.

1
F040035b2008ec80b205481afbd39ad4

on March 10, 2011
at 04:39 PM

What about a down-voter badge or badges?

A single downposter badge would make downposters more focused in their downvoting.

Alternatively if you categorised your down vote then you could rack up a badge or badges to reflect that you downvote becuase you:

  • found the post rude post
  • disagreed with the post
  • the post made no sense
  • poor grammar/spelling made it unreadable
  • off topic post

Just an idea!

F040035b2008ec80b205481afbd39ad4

(1837)

on March 10, 2011
at 06:32 PM

Yeah - maybe 'disagree' should require some supplemental text (perhaps in the 'comments'). Tt is an important to be able to disagree in situations where somebody is factually wrong or possibly even dangerous. Ask first, vote later seems like a good approach.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on March 10, 2011
at 04:50 PM

Definitly not for "Disagreed". If we don't agree with the post, we should first ask for an explanation and then act. Also off topics are sometimes really funny and are not so common that they would effect the threads readability (my observations). Actually I'm going with "Ask first, vote later" no matter the reason.

F040035b2008ec80b205481afbd39ad4

(1837)

on March 11, 2011
at 09:06 PM

Agreed - that is why I offered several classifications. I am not sure if it is workable to have such a system, but when something is 'demonstrably factually wrong' that is a good reason to downvote. If it is a simple 'disagreement' with the post then you might also downvote it. The value to the readers is in being able to differentiate the two. You could use the same rationale to classify upvotes.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on March 11, 2011
at 05:44 PM

Just because you disagree with a post, it does not mean that the post is "wrong" or worthy of a downvote (although, granted, some posts are demonstrably factually wrong). Most posts are statements of opinion, experience, or philosophy--not fact. In the past, I've UP-voted posts that I disagreed with, just because they were honest and well-written.

0
6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on April 20, 2011
at 03:43 AM

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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