3

votes

Challenged by a vegetarian!

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created July 17, 2012 at 3:08 AM

A lot of my friends are vegan/vegetarian being that I work with a lot of animal people.

So today I was discussing eating meat with one good vegetarian friend (I've already gotten her off canola oil and researching soy).

She feels that eating eggs and grass fed dairy, butter etc. can take the place of eating meat.

Although I don't agree, I have no solid comeback or wisely thought out answer, so I told her I would get back to her.

Can anyone help me out?

4f9c9824d21e558960296383aebc3c0c

(0)

on August 01, 2012
at 07:11 PM

I've read that PETA does do some behind the scenes negotiation with CAFOs in an effort to improve living conditions (improve is a long long way from pastured). Companies will make some modifications in order to avoid being a target of one of PETAs campaigns. I read that in the book "Eating Animals."

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on July 18, 2012
at 10:49 PM

Growing up on a farm, I've sent many "pet" to slaughter.

F31d10b54b31428e189d9b771bf7b1d1

(1439)

on July 18, 2012
at 09:21 PM

And then, Matt, one can eat fish and chickens if one actually cares about the experience of animals. Fish in particular are pretty much not at home. And then there are shrimp, really out-to-lunch. I generally do not eat anything that I could love, but I am not fanatical about it. I do have a cut up grass-fed beef liver in my refrigerator. And I do not hurt people's feelings if they put beef in front of me. But I find that beef is too heavy for me, and I have been loved by several cows who wanted me to pet them and snuggle them. So, I just don't like to eat them, if I can avoid it.

F31d10b54b31428e189d9b771bf7b1d1

(1439)

on July 18, 2012
at 09:16 PM

HaileyGallo, I tried sending PETA an email about pastured cows versus factory farm cows. I got back an economic analysis of why it would be impossible for pastured cows to be treated decently; it was all about economic competition, she said. Yet, everywhere that you look, pastured cows are treated very well. It sounds like PETA believes in economic determinism, another fancy word for Marxism. And yet all I see at pastured farms are happy cows wanting to snuggle.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on July 17, 2012
at 05:59 PM

Oh well, she doesn't know enough to say. We were just talking and wondering.

C4fa226c86c0ac5d2f49b48069c1c1a8

(120)

on July 17, 2012
at 04:32 PM

The Tamahura people of Mexico! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarahumara

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on July 17, 2012
at 12:29 PM

Well, the Swiss alpiners of Weston A. Price fame practically lived off goat dairy (milk, cheese, butter) and rye bread. Infrequently, they also ate goat. They were very healthy according to the good doctor. Of course, they were living in the mountains, maybe that had something to do with it. (think Heidi) It's possible that dairy and eggs are good enough. Some fish couldn't hurt...

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on July 17, 2012
at 08:06 AM

All I can offer is that I was a vegetarian for 2 and a half years and ate plenty of eggs and butter most of that time, especially the last several months when I went vegetarian paleo. But when I started eating grass fed red meat that was when my health really improved. N=1 and all that.

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 17, 2012
at 05:07 AM

I would encourage her in the eggs, dairy and butter and let that build a base before introducing much else.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on July 17, 2012
at 04:33 AM

Nice try, but something tells me that argument would never fly. It's like telling anti-abortion folks that it's okay because the fetus had a wonderful home for the time it was in utero. It's not about reason, unfortunately.

20aee218ca5bce816122348144db9792

(122)

on July 17, 2012
at 04:17 AM

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/10526/2 here's the nutritional profile of a pastured egg vs grass fed beef http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts-C00001-01c200_S0000o180j05012G18000000060800030500040600020E0004060B07020A020403010NPastureqqdRaisedqq0Eggsqq0qq81qq0largeqq0qqjqq050gqq9.html http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/10526/2 I don't know about y'all, but I get real tired of eggs real fast...

3cdc762b2ae30b4ca3529f011ccac174

(186)

on July 17, 2012
at 04:10 AM

The reference is probably to B12.

3cdc762b2ae30b4ca3529f011ccac174

(186)

on July 17, 2012
at 04:07 AM

A vegetarian can be healthy if they eat eggs and real cheeses such as Swiss, mozzarella, feta, cheddar, parmesan.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:53 AM

Good links. Thank you

8e10b687e328468783a72c55b64710e8

(1453)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:41 AM

I see. Eggs can substitute meat, though I am sure it may not provide as much protein as meat, and perhaps have different component of nutrients compared to offal. Just as chicken can't substitute beef. But, protein is still protein and some protein is better than none

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:34 AM

Thanks. This is kind of a fun thing we do, going back and forth a d we both learn things from each other

F31d10b54b31428e189d9b771bf7b1d1

(1439)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:32 AM

I agree with tj. It is the biochemistry that is important. Eggs are as meat if more so than meat.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:24 AM

So are you saying it's paleo to be a lacto-ova vegetarian?

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:22 AM

Well I'm not sure why I don't agree, so I'm asking for opinions.

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9 Answers

9
F31d10b54b31428e189d9b771bf7b1d1

on July 17, 2012
at 03:45 AM

Paleo is not a list of foods. It is matching one's diet/lifestyle with one's genes. The paleo part is an aid to knowing how to match one's diet/lifestyle with one's genes. It is only an aid, a starting point. You have to work out the details because no one knows your genetic structure with regard to your diet, but you can figure it out with trial and error.

I run long distances. Some "paleo" guru says that isn't paleo. I don't give a fig leaf what some "paleo" guru says. I love running and I have seen with my own eyes (via TV) bushmen running down game and tiring them to exhaustion and killing them. They ran for like 11 miles to catch and tire that animal. Running seems paleo to me, as much as sprinting and weight lifting.

It is very difficult to work out the details of your genetic dietary needs when you are doing things that are grossly out of line with your genes, like grains and legumes. It is like trying to catch a signal when there is a lot of noise. You have to reduce the noise a lot in order to hear any signal. Then, once you have some kind of signal, you can fine tune the signal. But if you have too much noise (like too many grains and legumes) and can't hear any signal, then fine tuning is useless.

C4fa226c86c0ac5d2f49b48069c1c1a8

(120)

on July 17, 2012
at 04:32 PM

The Tamahura people of Mexico! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarahumara

4
Afc0b8e755ac7cdde6b517fdadb50026

(778)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:18 AM

why dont you agree?

and besides eggs = meat

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:22 AM

Well I'm not sure why I don't agree, so I'm asking for opinions.

F31d10b54b31428e189d9b771bf7b1d1

(1439)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:32 AM

I agree with tj. It is the biochemistry that is important. Eggs are as meat if more so than meat.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:24 AM

So are you saying it's paleo to be a lacto-ova vegetarian?

20aee218ca5bce816122348144db9792

(122)

on July 17, 2012
at 04:17 AM

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/10526/2 here's the nutritional profile of a pastured egg vs grass fed beef http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts-C00001-01c200_S0000o180j05012G18000000060800030500040600020E0004060B07020A020403010NPastureqqdRaisedqq0Eggsqq0qq81qq0largeqq0qqjqq050gqq9.html http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/10526/2 I don't know about y'all, but I get real tired of eggs real fast...

3cdc762b2ae30b4ca3529f011ccac174

(186)

on July 17, 2012
at 04:07 AM

A vegetarian can be healthy if they eat eggs and real cheeses such as Swiss, mozzarella, feta, cheddar, parmesan.

3
6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on July 17, 2012
at 06:12 AM

I would like to gently direct both of you to the "Paleo and vegetarianism: let???s be friends!" article by Denise Minger: http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/08/13/ancestral-health-symposium/

3
20aee218ca5bce816122348144db9792

on July 17, 2012
at 04:12 AM

What really bothers me about vegan/PETA people is that their answer is just, "JUST STOP!! STOP KILLING ANIMALS!!" Instead of something more productive like putting their efforts behind movements to pasture livestock. They can shame a celeb into giving up a fur, but they can't shame meat suppliers into grass feeding instead of grain feeding? I know that they don't agree with meat consumption, which, sorry, is what human are adapted for, but they must agree with giving livestock a better quality of life before they're slaughtered.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on July 17, 2012
at 04:33 AM

Nice try, but something tells me that argument would never fly. It's like telling anti-abortion folks that it's okay because the fetus had a wonderful home for the time it was in utero. It's not about reason, unfortunately.

F31d10b54b31428e189d9b771bf7b1d1

(1439)

on July 18, 2012
at 09:16 PM

HaileyGallo, I tried sending PETA an email about pastured cows versus factory farm cows. I got back an economic analysis of why it would be impossible for pastured cows to be treated decently; it was all about economic competition, she said. Yet, everywhere that you look, pastured cows are treated very well. It sounds like PETA believes in economic determinism, another fancy word for Marxism. And yet all I see at pastured farms are happy cows wanting to snuggle.

4f9c9824d21e558960296383aebc3c0c

(0)

on August 01, 2012
at 07:11 PM

I've read that PETA does do some behind the scenes negotiation with CAFOs in an effort to improve living conditions (improve is a long long way from pastured). Companies will make some modifications in order to avoid being a target of one of PETAs campaigns. I read that in the book "Eating Animals."

2
32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on July 17, 2012
at 01:33 PM

Vegetarianism is not incompatible with paleo principles. Eggs and dairy easily cover nutrient needs, where flesh is not really necessary. The list of nutrients only found in animal products is rather small, it makes sense then that a relatively small amount of animal products can meet human needs for these nutrients.

F31d10b54b31428e189d9b771bf7b1d1

(1439)

on July 18, 2012
at 09:21 PM

And then, Matt, one can eat fish and chickens if one actually cares about the experience of animals. Fish in particular are pretty much not at home. And then there are shrimp, really out-to-lunch. I generally do not eat anything that I could love, but I am not fanatical about it. I do have a cut up grass-fed beef liver in my refrigerator. And I do not hurt people's feelings if they put beef in front of me. But I find that beef is too heavy for me, and I have been loved by several cows who wanted me to pet them and snuggle them. So, I just don't like to eat them, if I can avoid it.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on July 18, 2012
at 10:49 PM

Growing up on a farm, I've sent many "pet" to slaughter.

2
Fab409ac4a30957e3ed508514f7bff02

(295)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:46 AM

Not having qualms with eating meat allows more variety in obtaining various nutrients. I think the main problem with the typical plant-centric diet is that you aren't absorbing many of the nutrients that are there due to anti-nutrients (usually because of the interaction between minerals and phytic acid, if you are really interested in this stuff check out Mat Lalonde's AHS 2011 talk). Because the organisms that used to be meat have other means of escaping predation they appear to have less of these anti-nutrients - thus making the nutrients from them more easily absorbed (evolutionary perspective, but not proved).

I don't see the problem with anybody eating a plant-centric diet as long as they are aware of some of the possible issues (omega-6, intestinal permeability, phytic acid, more, more, more, etc).

aside - you & your friend may find this interesting if you haven't seen it already: Being Shellfish

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:53 AM

Good links. Thank you

2
8e10b687e328468783a72c55b64710e8

on July 17, 2012
at 03:25 AM

Eggs and dairy can't take the place of eating "meat" (red meat and poultry), because "meat", eggs, and dairy are different things that we need at different times. Red meat is also different to offals. They are all very differently composed, thus by nature, nothing can replace another. But as tj said, eggs = a type of meat and animal protein, even though not necessarily red meat or poultry.

Plant produce with eggs and dairy is still better than plant produce alone, IMO. Let your friend make her own choices and she will find what fits her on her own time. If she decided to be vegetarian, perhaps she will like tempeh, which is fermented soy protein (not paleo but better than other soy products out there, and definitely fits the WAPF standards).

8e10b687e328468783a72c55b64710e8

(1453)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:41 AM

I see. Eggs can substitute meat, though I am sure it may not provide as much protein as meat, and perhaps have different component of nutrients compared to offal. Just as chicken can't substitute beef. But, protein is still protein and some protein is better than none

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:34 AM

Thanks. This is kind of a fun thing we do, going back and forth a d we both learn things from each other

0
887a9c6c0ee243584548f02d45c439a6

(415)

on July 17, 2012
at 06:04 AM

Tell her you're trying to cause less suffering and feel eating meat is better than this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/01/chicks-being-ground-up-al_n_273652.html

0
D7cc4049bef85d1979efbd853dc07c8e

(4029)

on July 17, 2012
at 03:56 AM

Not sure in what way dairy and butter replaces meat. What nutrient does your friend say is in meat that they are getting by substituting dairy and butter (and not other plant products like oils for fats), other than the fact it originates from an animal?

3cdc762b2ae30b4ca3529f011ccac174

(186)

on July 17, 2012
at 04:10 AM

The reference is probably to B12.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on July 17, 2012
at 05:59 PM

Oh well, she doesn't know enough to say. We were just talking and wondering.

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