32

votes

What's with the jihad against low-carbers?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created May 21, 2012 at 6:27 PM

Every time I point out research suggesting that limiting carbs is good for weight loss or general health, someone responds "paleo doesn't mean low-carb" and/or downvotes my statement. One person even commented "-1 for treating carbs like they're evil." I have never asserted that Paleo is equivalent to low-carb. Just that low-carb may be good for your health. What is up with the knee-jerk reaction against low-carb?

Melissa edit: Please flag any abusive statements or behavior so the moderators can deal with it. Downvotes are just a reality of this site (and any site on the internet).

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

People jerk their knees. But I'd say don't sweat it. A bunch of downvotes does not a jihad make.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 15, 2012
at 06:58 AM

Conflation of low carb/paleo = thank you, Jimmy Moore. And we stood by and let it happen. We're STILL letting it happen. Who's moderating the 'safe starch' forum at AHS this year? Why, Jimmy Moore, baaaaaybeee! Now go buy some frankenfoods...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 15, 2012
at 05:41 AM

Because most low-carbers look like Jimmy Moore. That's what's with it.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 28, 2012
at 06:16 PM

I know what you mean but I'm not sure that it is as simple as looking at our family origins. I'm a Brit and as far as I can tell, all of my ancestors for the past few generations originate from all countries of the British Isles. You might guess that I do well with minimal fruit and plenty of fatty meat and you would be right but there seems to be a few people on here that I would guess, do not have origins much different to mine but claim to do well with diets that include a lot more fruit and a lot less fatty meat. Some of these people seem to be eating fairly "Tropical"

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on May 27, 2012
at 10:00 AM

*Paleo man would have to risk death climbing trees for fruit* hahaha that is so wrong I remember at my first school, where there were something like 20 apple, pear and prune trees, we would be able to get 100 pieces of fruit in 10 minutes if we wanted without any danger. Have you ever climbed a tree? *If you eat enough carbs/fruit the fat burning advantage will turn off.This is how the body works and it was not my idea* Tell that to Jimmy Moore... You've read Taubes too much.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on May 27, 2012
at 09:53 AM

I can't believe Wisper got so many negative reactions just for saying that low-carbing isn't necessary. You can't deny most people lose weight on raw veganism, and low-carb diets are always considered necessary for weight loss. Jimmy Moore is a good example of why it doesn't necessarily work like that.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on May 27, 2012
at 04:30 AM

Sam, that's wonderful stuff! Thorough, well referenced, well written, persuasive. Off to read more of your blog.

F0a3e3f17d9a740810ac37ff2353a9f3

(3804)

on May 24, 2012
at 11:07 PM

Ambimorph! I've been looking for you... Read this and tell me what you think: http://wp.me/p25oah-7l

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on May 24, 2012
at 10:43 PM

I think it started even before that. I wrote a little about it here last March: http://paleohacks.com/questions/25449/why-do-people-consider-ketosis-stressful-to-the-body At that time I attrbuted it in part to KGH and Jaminet.

Db4ad76f6f307a6f577e175710049172

(2297)

on May 22, 2012
at 05:28 PM

I've only been here for close to a year now, but I think there's more people joining that are giving their 'emotional' take on paleo, and giving advice on their gut feelings - and thus moving PH towards that. This could be not the case, but I've made myself scarce the more that it's happened. I guess this is what comes with popularity.

Db4ad76f6f307a6f577e175710049172

(2297)

on May 22, 2012
at 05:23 PM

Might have something to do with the "old friends" hypothesis in hygiene, that since our immune system doesn't have these old friends to deal with, it reacts to food instead, or something like that. Not saying that's the truth, but it might explain some of the food intolerances out there. What if "Paleo" is wrong about why people can't tolerate foods? It's not bad if it is, only bad if you cling to the previous ideas just because they were the original ideas.

Db4ad76f6f307a6f577e175710049172

(2297)

on May 22, 2012
at 05:18 PM

Matt, thanks for missing the point that I'm talking about macronutrients here, and not specific foods. I'm assuming you're pulling that from the "why do people decide not to eat white potatoes" or whatever that question was. Also, a million years is a stupid amount of time to evolve for something. If the selective pressure is great enough, then evolution will take place rather quickly. Another thing that I'd like to add, that it's possible that everyone can in fact tolerate and eat wheat, but not when people are raised in a sterilized environment like we are today. (cont.)

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 22, 2012
at 01:04 PM

If you would like to continue this bickering elsewhere you can do so at my junk email address, nrhoff07@gmail.com.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 22, 2012
at 01:02 PM

I never stated anything negative about anyone's character in my post. It is like saying this; "I like soccer but I am not going to take lessons from the commentators- they only know the rules, and player statistics. To actually improve my game on the field, I am going to seek out the athletes themselves, ask, observe, and mimic what they're doing." That is just honest.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 22, 2012
at 12:56 PM

Honestly? I deleted it after reading a profile and deciding that it was harsh and offensive. However, I never attacked anyones character in my post and it was an honest answer on my thoughts on carbs. Then my character is attacked as someone who is narrow-minded and also inexperienced.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 22, 2012
at 12:31 PM

Oh what happened to your charming comment about how you so cleverly chose not to become morbidly obese and are so superior to everyone else?

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on May 22, 2012
at 08:37 AM

You're reading too much into it. When I write responses I assume people are healthy individuals, and can't be bothered to slather them with all kinds of disclaimers to cover my ass.

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on May 22, 2012
at 08:33 AM

Reading comprehension helps. Re-read "Low carbing is only one option, and too many people sell it as panacea."

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 22, 2012
at 02:16 AM

Why do you say it like that? ALso, you would be wrong to assume that I have no past of addiction.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 22, 2012
at 01:40 AM

Actually you would be incorrect on that account.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on May 22, 2012
at 01:17 AM

Wisper, I think the issue may be vague wording on your part, although who knows, maybe your statement can be taken at face value. The way you wrote your answer, it sounded like you were saying all options work equally well for all people, and a low-fat high-carb diet would work just as well for someone like me or Shari as the LC option. Whereas we've both tried a pretty broad range of options -- numerous time, to boot -- and LC does turn out to be the only option *for us*. See the difference?

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 22, 2012
at 01:15 AM

Again though, I trust you're not speaking from personal experience of addiction here.

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on May 22, 2012
at 12:54 AM

@Shari So you raised my N=1 with your N=1? I also acknowledged that low carbing IS an option, but it's not the ONLY option - and perhaps not even the best option. Seems like low carbers are just as pissy and defensive as others.

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on May 22, 2012
at 12:52 AM

@Kelly I'm 37, I do home office work, and am no powerlifter although I lift "seriously" when I'm at the gym for the 30-45 mins I am there. I also didn't say 400g per day, I said 400g post-workout. I eat very low carb on off days, so it all averages out to moderate carb over a week. People with broken metabolism is obviously a different case than those without, goes without saying. For the skeptics google some LeanGains success stories from Martin Berkhan or Andy Morgan, I'm not the only one.

6ba6dc54fccbb9e01a07595137cecfa2

(92)

on May 21, 2012
at 11:58 PM

Basically the issue is can you have your cake/paleo fat burning advantage] and eat it to.If you can get 1+1 to equal 3 then yes you can.Good luck with that.

6ba6dc54fccbb9e01a07595137cecfa2

(92)

on May 21, 2012
at 11:50 PM

Survival requires adequate calories every day and fruit does not become ripe every day.Fruit does not meet protein or fat needs.The Inuit survived without fruit very well. The ice cream link is pun.com/lol.Fruit and fruit eating is fine.If you eat enough carbs/fruit the fat burning advantage will turn off.This is how the body works and it was not my idea.just in case someone was wondering.I must disclose I had a beautiful orange along with some blueberries earlier today. Wild crafting adequate calories via plants would impose strict logistical limitations.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on May 21, 2012
at 11:39 PM

Matthew, please read my comment more carefully. I'm quite aware of the limitations of a lot of research.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 21, 2012
at 11:10 PM

Let's not get emotional about this. PLEASE FLAG abuse when you see it. Us moderators can't fix it unless you do this.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 11:10 PM

The person labeling non anti-carb people as the "jihad" is the one with the problem, not the other way around, silly.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 10:44 PM

@ PD- You're referring to food reward, no? I def think that has something to do with the obesity epidemic, no doubt, but it's not a scape goat. Minds are more powerful than whatever addictive features processed foods may have, and one can certainly put them down at will. If your mind was not capable of telling you when to stop engaging in seriously addictive behavior, then there would be no recovered drug addicts, anorexics, or bulimics, and yet, there are millions.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 10:41 PM

@ PD- I think you're referring to food reward, no? I definitely think that has some to do with the obesity epidemic, no doubt. But I do think that people's minds are more powerful and they can put down those foods when they want. If that were not the case, there would be no recovered drug addicts, anorexics, bulimics, etc. And yet, there are.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 10:31 PM

nrhoff07@stlawu.edu

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 10:26 PM

If you would like we can exchange emails and sort out our differences in a more private, less cumbersome manner of exhange?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 10:25 PM

if you would like better we could exchange emails and sort our differences out privately and in a less cumbersome manner of exchange?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 10:01 PM

@ SB- I honestly could give a damn if you downvoted me. I have little experience why? (This is not rhetorical) is it because I did not allow myself to become morbidly obese?

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:59 PM

Rose, ALOT of research is BS, funded by assh***s (Corporations or Govt, you take your pick), designed with the intent to skew information in favor of a certain agenda. ALOT of research is propaganda and is it intentionally designed to DECEIVE people.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:51 PM

Sell it as a panacea? Are you serious? Your experience YOUR experience. MY experience says I have to do low carb for weight loss. Your N=1 means nothing to anyone but you. Remember that please.

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:51 PM

He is not an outlier, and his experiences are not atypical. In the context of resistance training (doesn't have to be HEAVY) I have had success with obese clients using carb refeeds. Our metabolisms are dependent on activity, so if you are cutting carbs because you are relativley inactive you are only masking the true problem of inactivity.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:48 PM

You come across as having very limited experience and even more limited vision. This is what I object to. People who know little and have experienced little making statements like carbs don't' make you fat in the real world. People who say stuff like that deserve to be downvoted IMO.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:41 PM

And regarding the junk food, the central question really is why people over-consume. Yes they contain a lot of calories from fat, but if that was all they contained would people eat as much? It's not as complicated as a lot of people like to make it, but the arguments are a little more subtle than you seem to acknowledge.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:39 PM

I'd like Wolf's athleticism. 150g isn't high carb. Not knowing anyone who eats lower-carb doesn't lend you a great amount of perspective, and neither does being 22yo with a history of multiple and competitive sport during your formative years. If you're still foreveryoung in 50 years then perhaps it would mean more, but even then no-one is really arguing against 30% carbs as being manageable for a healthy, fit, active individual.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:25 PM

There's a big difference between the way our paleo ancestors ate and The Paleo Diet. People are here for different reasons.

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:20 PM

No one here tries to make the argument that people have adapted to grain consumption the way it is recommended, and generally everyone Paleo disagrees with USDA recommendations of a daily carbohydrate intake of 60-65% of calories based on the idea on that carbohydrates were not in abundant supply for the non-diverse group of people that evolved in Africa. Give it another million years before you can say that we are all that diverse.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:20 PM

Limited access perhaps. It's not a good survival option if you ask me.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:20 PM

Being wealthy enough to overindulge at will wasn't common 70,000 years ago. Or even 100 years ago.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:17 PM

Of course, it's inevitable that *some* people are doing it wrong. That's certainly an issue with getting meaningful research on the subject.

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:07 PM

-1 The whole idea of the Paleo diet is that there are certain foods that should and should not be eaten based on a non-diverse group of people that evolved in Africa. You are saying different people adapted to different foods over time (not just in this thread but in others) and are diverse because of that, but the Paleo diet counters this by saying that doesn't mean a whole lot in the in context of evolution and the time it takes for a species to truly adapt to a food.

E68bdbd83e45fd5be130e393ace9c9a9

(2063)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:04 PM

Kelly, yes, you're totally right that limiting carbs is helpful for people with broken metabolisms. My frustration is that sometimes people with other issues (hypothyroid, autoimmune disorders) are also reflexively told to go low-carb even when it might be really harmful for them.

E68bdbd83e45fd5be130e393ace9c9a9

(2063)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:02 PM

Ugh, thank you so much for saying this, Soporificat!! I am baffled by the suggestion that PH is hostile to LC-ers... I see way more suggestions to limit or totally eliminate carbs than to include more of them.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:58 PM

*although, not "all though" haha.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:50 PM

PD, I especially get annoyed when people downvote research. It's one thing to piss on someone's strongly asserted opinion (for example, that people MUST do this or that to achieve whatever), and another entirely to piss on reference material, no matter what view that material supports. It seems to me that it's one of the major points of this site to provide people with *relevant* research. Even research that turns out to be suboptimal or wrong (which is a scary great deal of it, lol), is still relevant. Partisan downvoting discourages controversial but interesting posts.

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:44 PM

Maybe your paleo ancestors had a problem gathering yummy and starchy fruits and tubers, but MY paleo ancestors were great at it. I believe their favorite staple carb was cattail roots, which are plentiful and full of starch. Or, maybe you meant just paleo "man" had a problem gathering high carb foods. ;)

B04787f664abf9bebc28f71bf7825a3c

(877)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:42 PM

This! This is how I feel!

B04787f664abf9bebc28f71bf7825a3c

(877)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:40 PM

lol "high carb paleo is similar to low fat ice cream" let's have some links! Also, there is a fruit which grows grapes directly on its trunk for non-climbing animals to pick: http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:38 PM

I guess what I mean is that I think MDA is more balanced than PaleoHacks! Which probably shows how fed up I am about the LC slant around these here parts.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:35 PM

That was misinforming. I do read paleo blogs- HGL and WHS are my go-tos.

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on May 21, 2012
at 08:35 PM

It's the same thing with coconut oil. Coconut Oil Mafia and Carb Mafia. It's unfortunate that there are people just a tad too sensitive, and have a trigger finger on downvoting, instead of thinking outside the box and trying for a fruitful discussion. "One sock doesn't fit all" and what works for me won't work for you. I know many who are VLC/LC and are aces.. moderate is what works for me. But take heart, you won't be living on the bottom of the East River in tuber shoes - they don't sink :)

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:34 PM

Yes, a lot of this factionalization is really stoopid in light of how similar the factions actually are. I'm a zero-carber (animal products only), and there are people who eat a small amount of vegetable matter who are furious with me (and other ZCers) for not eating any. About 15g of carb/day separates us. Well, that, and the whole sane vs. insane thing...

8634d4988ced45a68e2a79e69cc01835

(1617)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:34 PM

I agree. People and their activity levels are SO different, there is no ONE way to do it. I can't keep up with my workouts and walking with my active dog a lot if I don't get adequate carbs. However, if you sit around a lot and are overweight, low carb might be a magic bullet until you reach a healthy weight.

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on May 21, 2012
at 08:34 PM

It's the same thing with coconut oil. Coconut Oil Mafia and Carb Mafia. It's unfortunate that there are people just a tad too sensitive, and have a trigger finger on downvoting, instead of thinking outside the box and trying for a fruitful discussion. "One sock doesn't fit all" and what works for me won't work for you. I know many who are VLC/LC and are aces.. just doesn't work for me :) But take heart, you won't be living on the bottom of the East River in tuber shoes - they don't sink :)

F31d10b54b31428e189d9b771bf7b1d1

(1439)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:32 PM

Although I do LC strongly, there are tribes like the Kitivans (http://healwithfood.org/diet/kitavan-diet-foods.php) that do well on more moderate carbs. I doubt that it will ever be for me, but I will see.

8634d4988ced45a68e2a79e69cc01835

(1617)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:31 PM

Fruit falls off trees, you know. ;-) I can pick up tonnes of edible fruit from my trees that are windfall. Just sayin!

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:29 PM

I guess I get annoyed because I feel like it's unfair and misleading to present extrapolations from incomplete studies as truth about the real world. And as for my comments (purely physical in nature), it is just what I have observed from videos and pictures, as I have never met these people in person. I'm sure they are wonderful, but I'm not taking nutrition advice from them any day of the week. I like the stuff on HGL and HHS.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:27 PM

Plus one hundred!

4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:27 PM

That's funny, I think of MDA as a site that definitely promotes LC, at least for people trying to lose weight.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:26 PM

Amen to that. When people ask me about my diet, I never mention carb intake at all. I just focus on meat, fish, fruit, vegetable - no grains no seed oils. Once you have that down, you can fine tune however it works best for yourself

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:25 PM

Amen to that. When people ask me about my diet, I never mention carb intake at all. I just focus on meat, fish, fruit, vegetable - no grains no see oils. Once you have that down, you can fine tune however it works best for yourself.

4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:22 PM

I don't think anyone's ever suggested that an athletic person will become obese because of eating 300g a day.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:22 PM

+1 for "handbag swinging incident." +another 1 for a succinct and I think quite correct analysis.

4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:20 PM

Why do you get annoyed? You've found what works for you, and that's what you should focus on. For the record, Robb Wolf isn't really an "armchair nutritionist". While he's not a trained nutritionist, he's a professional fitness instructor who has tons of personal training experience, as well as previous clinical experience.

5e63e3fa78e998736106a4a5b9aef58c

on May 21, 2012
at 08:18 PM

I got the "you're doing it wrong" and "you need to stick with it" stuff way back when I was a slim-but-sickly vegan. And again when I was eating a "healthy" low-fat, high-carb diet and still gaining weight while being hungry all the time. So I've learned the hard way that saying, "Maybe this just isn't the right way of eating for you. Have you tried [X, Y, or Z]?" is an infinitely more compassionate and helpful response to someone who is struggling.

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:16 PM

However, I don't hang out on other sites, except MDA (which I think is pretty balanced), so maybe other Paleo boards are more weighted towards moderate carb.

B04787f664abf9bebc28f71bf7825a3c

(877)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:15 PM

I just think Paleo is whatever you want it to be, as long as you are eating nutrient dense foods and listening to your body instead of blindly following a health guru, while avoiding foods which might be detrimental to your body (grains, beans, refined sugars, etc).

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:13 PM

I've been on PaleoHacks for 5 months, and I'm constantly seeing threads where people are conflating LC with Paleo. In fact, I just commented on one where this guy is VLC Paleo, feeling terrible, and most of the folks are giving advice about "more fat" and "more protein", blah blah, when this guy has hypo-thyroid! People who are hypo should NOT be LC much less VLC. I've seen this kind of thread over and over.

4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:05 PM

Cat, how long have you been following paleo? I've been hanging around paleo sites for a year and I definitely feel like higher-carb has been ascendant over that time.

4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:02 PM

I agree with Kelly. If you're losing lots of weight eating 400 g of carbs a day, you're a major outlier. It's great that it works for you, but don't get all pissy when someone points out that it's not a realistic option for most people.

B04787f664abf9bebc28f71bf7825a3c

(877)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:02 PM

If you want to get technical about it, it is surmised that homo sapiens moved out of Africa a mere 70,000 years ago. So most of our human ancestors may indeed have access to tropical fruit for a better part of the year.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:01 PM

Very well said, J. All though I admittedly am probably a part of this "jihad" I very rarely down vote people, and have never done just because someone is advocating low carb.

B04787f664abf9bebc28f71bf7825a3c

(877)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:00 PM

If you want to get technical about it, it is surmised that homo erectus moved out of Africa a mere 70,000 years ago. So most of our human ancestors may indeed have access to tropical fruit for a better part of the year.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:00 PM

I guess it depends on how you define "moderate". I vary my carb intake anywhere between 20 and 100 grams most days, which leaves me feeilng really good, but I won't lose any weight unless I stay below 50. This is not VLC, and frankly feels moderate to me, as I get to eat a variety of fruits, vegetables, and even some rice and sweet potatoes at times. But the carb group gets really insistent that you need to be over 100 or it constitutes an unhealthy restriction. I feel like you can't win.

956bcad1d462d433a4e1e22f6e3355d5

(1191)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:00 PM

I concur. For most Paleo = trial and error. And I think most people are (over)protective towards other people that seem to be making/are going to make the same mistakes they did while in fact it may not be a mistake for them after all. Their mileage may vary...

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:56 PM

Thank you!! You summed it up perfectly. I wish I could upvote you a million!

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:53 PM

See, I don't "need" to remember this, because LC-ers are constantly talking about it!

246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21430)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:52 PM

*just Just playing with you Warren, had to put in a little tit-for-tat.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:50 PM

I don't disagree but, you need to remember that high carb can be harmful to certain people as well.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:49 PM

Well I can't lose any weight at all unless I stay below 50 grams. Maybe if I were a power lifter that might be different. But there are so many people who come to paleo becuase they are metabolically broken and need to restrict their carbohydrate intake. Maybe once their bodies heal that would be different, but telling a middle aged office jockey they can lose weight on 400 grams of carb a day (especially when they were probably eating around 300 on SAD anyway) is a huge disservice.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:48 PM

I think this happens to everyone, whatever they promote. Most of the time it's because people generalize their own experiences.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:09 PM

I have never down voted for this, but I am part of the "jihad."

C56baa1b4f39839c018180bf63226f7d

(3499)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:07 PM

It's been my experience that almost all contexts where people say "you must have carbs" lack enough data sufficient to overcome my n=1 wherein dropping carbs makes me feel better overall. Thanks to Paleo I can now eat some potatoes or rice without carb coma (most of the time) but it doesn't always work and it sometimes *really* makes me feel icky.

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19 Answers

19
Db4ad76f6f307a6f577e175710049172

on May 21, 2012
at 06:57 PM

Well, you've kind of got a bunch of paleos swinging from one spectrum to the other. First it was a fat orgy, everyone stuffing fistfuls of bacon in their mouth, just because it turns out fat isn't bad for you, and it's something conventional wisdom-ers "can't" do. Now you have people realizing that some populations do well on high carb, and they're not exceptions.

My guess is that people fail to realize that humans are a rather diverse species, with a good amount of genetic variation. There's also people with certain metabolic conditions that definitely do better on low carb, and other's high carb (think obese person vs. Crossfitter). They, the people who are semi-fanatic, want to have one "perfect diet" that applies to everyone, which just doesn't work.

956bcad1d462d433a4e1e22f6e3355d5

(1191)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:00 PM

I concur. For most Paleo = trial and error. And I think most people are (over)protective towards other people that seem to be making/are going to make the same mistakes they did while in fact it may not be a mistake for them after all. Their mileage may vary...

8634d4988ced45a68e2a79e69cc01835

(1617)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:34 PM

I agree. People and their activity levels are SO different, there is no ONE way to do it. I can't keep up with my workouts and walking with my active dog a lot if I don't get adequate carbs. However, if you sit around a lot and are overweight, low carb might be a magic bullet until you reach a healthy weight.

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:07 PM

-1 The whole idea of the Paleo diet is that there are certain foods that should and should not be eaten based on a non-diverse group of people that evolved in Africa. You are saying different people adapted to different foods over time (not just in this thread but in others) and are diverse because of that, but the Paleo diet counters this by saying that doesn't mean a whole lot in the in context of evolution and the time it takes for a species to truly adapt to a food.

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:20 PM

No one here tries to make the argument that people have adapted to grain consumption the way it is recommended, and generally everyone Paleo disagrees with USDA recommendations of a daily carbohydrate intake of 60-65% of calories based on the idea on that carbohydrates were not in abundant supply for the non-diverse group of people that evolved in Africa. Give it another million years before you can say that we are all that diverse.

Db4ad76f6f307a6f577e175710049172

(2297)

on May 22, 2012
at 05:23 PM

Might have something to do with the "old friends" hypothesis in hygiene, that since our immune system doesn't have these old friends to deal with, it reacts to food instead, or something like that. Not saying that's the truth, but it might explain some of the food intolerances out there. What if "Paleo" is wrong about why people can't tolerate foods? It's not bad if it is, only bad if you cling to the previous ideas just because they were the original ideas.

Db4ad76f6f307a6f577e175710049172

(2297)

on May 22, 2012
at 05:18 PM

Matt, thanks for missing the point that I'm talking about macronutrients here, and not specific foods. I'm assuming you're pulling that from the "why do people decide not to eat white potatoes" or whatever that question was. Also, a million years is a stupid amount of time to evolve for something. If the selective pressure is great enough, then evolution will take place rather quickly. Another thing that I'd like to add, that it's possible that everyone can in fact tolerate and eat wheat, but not when people are raised in a sterilized environment like we are today. (cont.)

15
246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21430)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:48 PM

I like low carb. I tried higher carbs and the results were less than stellar.

I chalk this up to my own binge tendencies, and the fact that when I do binge, it's exclusively on carbs. This is no fault of carbs, but of my own neurosis.

Because of this, I normally advocate a low carb paleo diet for people that show similar binge tendencies in their own testimonies. And yes, especially lately, I've been downvoted on pretty much every thread where I've made this suggestion.

But on the flip side, I do understand that people can, do, and will eat carbohydrates that don't have an issue with them. And nor do I. In fact, I've frequently suggested people eat some potato or fruit.

Mostly, I've suggested people find their own way in their own diets. I am just as wary of the Low Carb Zealots as I am the High Carb Zealots, as both camps seem to be quite dogmatic in their downvotes and downright venom lately... which really detracts from the previous "self-experimentation" vibe that was so heavy here. In fact, it's that kind of zealotry that pushed me away from another, fairly popular Paleolithic diet forum.

Two years ago, the answer to every question posted here was "Eat more fat". Now it seems, the prevalent answer is "eat more carbs". Somewhere in the middle was a golden era of "try it and see how it affects you" - it's unfortunate to continually feel that slipping.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:01 PM

Very well said, J. All though I admittedly am probably a part of this "jihad" I very rarely down vote people, and have never done just because someone is advocating low carb.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:58 PM

*although, not "all though" haha.

13
4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:17 PM

Even if paleo's not necessarily a low carb (i.e. ketogenic) diet, I would guess most (almost all?) paleo eaters get far fewer carbs than an SAD eater. When it comes right down to it, there's simply not nearly as many sources of carbs available if you don't eat grains. So nitpicking between "Oh, I eat less than 50g of carbs a day" v. "I feel great at 150g" is really beside the point. People need to stop taking the recommendations of others so personally and do what's best for themselves (only determinable based on experimentation).

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:27 PM

Plus one hundred!

B04787f664abf9bebc28f71bf7825a3c

(877)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:42 PM

This! This is how I feel!

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:34 PM

Yes, a lot of this factionalization is really stoopid in light of how similar the factions actually are. I'm a zero-carber (animal products only), and there are people who eat a small amount of vegetable matter who are furious with me (and other ZCers) for not eating any. About 15g of carb/day separates us. Well, that, and the whole sane vs. insane thing...

13
F0a3e3f17d9a740810ac37ff2353a9f3

(3804)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:01 PM

I think it started with the Guyenet/Taubes handbag-swinging incident at AHS 2011. Guyenet then "proved" that the insulin theory was wrong, thus carbohydrates were not a dietary evil. His food reward theory seems more Paleo-friendly given that it focuses on modern manipulations to increase palatability rather than macronutrients. Anyway, two tribes formed and there are still skirmishes going on, and I think your experience reflects that.

Also, there's a marketing and generational aspect. Some of those who'd like to see Paleo diets go mainstream want them associated with fresh, preferably young, faces and new ideas. I think they see low-carb advocates, including Paleo low-carb advocates, as rather dated and stale.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:22 PM

+1 for "handbag swinging incident." +another 1 for a succinct and I think quite correct analysis.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on May 24, 2012
at 10:43 PM

I think it started even before that. I wrote a little about it here last March: http://paleohacks.com/questions/25449/why-do-people-consider-ketosis-stressful-to-the-body At that time I attrbuted it in part to KGH and Jaminet.

F0a3e3f17d9a740810ac37ff2353a9f3

(3804)

on May 24, 2012
at 11:07 PM

Ambimorph! I've been looking for you... Read this and tell me what you think: http://wp.me/p25oah-7l

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on May 27, 2012
at 04:30 AM

Sam, that's wonderful stuff! Thorough, well referenced, well written, persuasive. Off to read more of your blog.

7
F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 21, 2012
at 06:54 PM

Repeat after me.. "As in everything, Your Mileage May Vary."

Some people feel better on fewer carbs (me, yes, I admit it and I've tried both). Some people feel better on higher carbs. However my personal observation is that those who favor low carb are not likely to get angry and downvote those who like higher carbs. Maybe because there are a lot of other "carbs are evil and should die" message boards for them to hang out at. Maybe carbs make you cranky. I don't know for sure.

But kudos for asking a respectful question about it.

C56baa1b4f39839c018180bf63226f7d

(3499)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:07 PM

It's been my experience that almost all contexts where people say "you must have carbs" lack enough data sufficient to overcome my n=1 wherein dropping carbs makes me feel better overall. Thanks to Paleo I can now eat some potatoes or rice without carb coma (most of the time) but it doesn't always work and it sometimes *really* makes me feel icky.

6
Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

on May 21, 2012
at 07:29 PM

I can't say I've noticed a "jihad" against low-carbers. However, occasionally I will pipe up with "carbs are very helpful for some people" whenever I see a thread where people are clearly trying to assert that LC is the only real way to do Paleo. Unfortunately, I've seen that more often than not, and when I started Paleo it caused some confusion for me, which I want to prevent for any other newbies here.

Since LC can actually be harmful for certain people, it's important that LC and Paleo don't get conflated.

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:38 PM

I guess what I mean is that I think MDA is more balanced than PaleoHacks! Which probably shows how fed up I am about the LC slant around these here parts.

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:16 PM

However, I don't hang out on other sites, except MDA (which I think is pretty balanced), so maybe other Paleo boards are more weighted towards moderate carb.

4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:05 PM

Cat, how long have you been following paleo? I've been hanging around paleo sites for a year and I definitely feel like higher-carb has been ascendant over that time.

4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:27 PM

That's funny, I think of MDA as a site that definitely promotes LC, at least for people trying to lose weight.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:50 PM

I don't disagree but, you need to remember that high carb can be harmful to certain people as well.

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:53 PM

See, I don't "need" to remember this, because LC-ers are constantly talking about it!

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:13 PM

I've been on PaleoHacks for 5 months, and I'm constantly seeing threads where people are conflating LC with Paleo. In fact, I just commented on one where this guy is VLC Paleo, feeling terrible, and most of the folks are giving advice about "more fat" and "more protein", blah blah, when this guy has hypo-thyroid! People who are hypo should NOT be LC much less VLC. I've seen this kind of thread over and over.

E68bdbd83e45fd5be130e393ace9c9a9

(2063)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:02 PM

Ugh, thank you so much for saying this, Soporificat!! I am baffled by the suggestion that PH is hostile to LC-ers... I see way more suggestions to limit or totally eliminate carbs than to include more of them.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 15, 2012
at 06:58 AM

Conflation of low carb/paleo = thank you, Jimmy Moore. And we stood by and let it happen. We're STILL letting it happen. Who's moderating the 'safe starch' forum at AHS this year? Why, Jimmy Moore, baaaaaybeee! Now go buy some frankenfoods...

5
A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on May 21, 2012
at 09:18 PM

The FAQ has this to say:

Above all, be honest. If you see misinformation, vote it down. Insert comments indicating what, specifically, is wrong. Even better ??? edit and improve the information! Provide stronger, faster, superior answers of your own!

I generally do not notice most people using down votes in this thoughtful way, and consider most down votes punitive--sort of the way people use their car horns sometimes, not to alert someone to danger, but to shout "Get the f*%k out of my way a*$%^&e!" What these down votes really say to me: "I don't like your opinion, and would like to limit how many other people can read it." Get out of my way, in other words.

Users with 2,000 or more reputation points who down-vote without comment or editing the reply to fix what's wrong abuse the system. That's just my opinion--and I'm sure it's worth a few down-votes to someone.

By the way, prompted by your question, I reviewed your down-voted answers, and disagreed with the down votes. Since I thought they had value in the discussion, I voted them up myself. I don't see it as a "jihad," just a (small) handful of people acting in a petty way.

5
B04787f664abf9bebc28f71bf7825a3c

on May 21, 2012
at 07:54 PM

Strange, it seems like a lot MORE people are against moderate carb paleos :D When I started telling people adding in more carbs to my diet in the form of a smoothie has helped me to lose MORE weight, they tell me "No, you need to add more fat, not carbs!" etc.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:26 PM

Amen to that. When people ask me about my diet, I never mention carb intake at all. I just focus on meat, fish, fruit, vegetable - no grains no seed oils. Once you have that down, you can fine tune however it works best for yourself

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:25 PM

Amen to that. When people ask me about my diet, I never mention carb intake at all. I just focus on meat, fish, fruit, vegetable - no grains no see oils. Once you have that down, you can fine tune however it works best for yourself.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:00 PM

I guess it depends on how you define "moderate". I vary my carb intake anywhere between 20 and 100 grams most days, which leaves me feeilng really good, but I won't lose any weight unless I stay below 50. This is not VLC, and frankly feels moderate to me, as I get to eat a variety of fruits, vegetables, and even some rice and sweet potatoes at times. But the carb group gets really insistent that you need to be over 100 or it constitutes an unhealthy restriction. I feel like you can't win.

B04787f664abf9bebc28f71bf7825a3c

(877)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:15 PM

I just think Paleo is whatever you want it to be, as long as you are eating nutrient dense foods and listening to your body instead of blindly following a health guru, while avoiding foods which might be detrimental to your body (grains, beans, refined sugars, etc).

5
5e63e3fa78e998736106a4a5b9aef58c

on May 21, 2012
at 07:47 PM

I did Atkins for a long time before getting into paleo. And the way I do paleo is still very Atkins-y because, after a lot of experimentation, I now know I do best on very low carbs.

I get the impression a lot of paleofolk got started with LC before making the shift, and brought a lot of those ideas with them into paleo. I've also seen paleo treated as another form of LC diet on some LC forums--and from the conversations there, you'd never guess it wasn't.

So I imagine there are enough of us low-carbers here to make a significant minority. And I also imagine that many, if not most, of us still operate from a base assumption that paleo is LC--even if we now know better. I know I catch myself doing just that; it's something I have to watch, because it can influence my answers in ways that aren't helpful.

And when you get a sizable minority who share an assumption that's not universally true, and they keep commenting and answering based on that assumption? That gets really goddamned annoying to everyone else. Plus, it's hard enough explaining paleo to people who aren't into it, only to hear them ask, "So it's like Atkins, right?"

So I can understand why some here might not have a whole lot of patience with the LC crowd.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:25 PM

There's a big difference between the way our paleo ancestors ate and The Paleo Diet. People are here for different reasons.

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:56 PM

Thank you!! You summed it up perfectly. I wish I could upvote you a million!

4
9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:31 PM

Because paleo DOESN'T necessarily mean low carb, but it's an unfortunate and common misconception which needs to be addressed. It's tiring when even people on paleo themselves make that mistake.

Also, low carbing is NOT necessary for weight loss. Talking from experience: eating up to 400g of carbs PWO, and have lost 23kg doing so.

Low carbing is only one option, and too many people sell it as panacea.

edit: if people are so concerned about META and pissing contests, feel free to check my voting history.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:51 PM

Sell it as a panacea? Are you serious? Your experience YOUR experience. MY experience says I have to do low carb for weight loss. Your N=1 means nothing to anyone but you. Remember that please.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:49 PM

Well I can't lose any weight at all unless I stay below 50 grams. Maybe if I were a power lifter that might be different. But there are so many people who come to paleo becuase they are metabolically broken and need to restrict their carbohydrate intake. Maybe once their bodies heal that would be different, but telling a middle aged office jockey they can lose weight on 400 grams of carb a day (especially when they were probably eating around 300 on SAD anyway) is a huge disservice.

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on May 22, 2012
at 12:52 AM

@Kelly I'm 37, I do home office work, and am no powerlifter although I lift "seriously" when I'm at the gym for the 30-45 mins I am there. I also didn't say 400g per day, I said 400g post-workout. I eat very low carb on off days, so it all averages out to moderate carb over a week. People with broken metabolism is obviously a different case than those without, goes without saying. For the skeptics google some LeanGains success stories from Martin Berkhan or Andy Morgan, I'm not the only one.

E68bdbd83e45fd5be130e393ace9c9a9

(2063)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:04 PM

Kelly, yes, you're totally right that limiting carbs is helpful for people with broken metabolisms. My frustration is that sometimes people with other issues (hypothyroid, autoimmune disorders) are also reflexively told to go low-carb even when it might be really harmful for them.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on May 22, 2012
at 01:17 AM

Wisper, I think the issue may be vague wording on your part, although who knows, maybe your statement can be taken at face value. The way you wrote your answer, it sounded like you were saying all options work equally well for all people, and a low-fat high-carb diet would work just as well for someone like me or Shari as the LC option. Whereas we've both tried a pretty broad range of options -- numerous time, to boot -- and LC does turn out to be the only option *for us*. See the difference?

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on May 22, 2012
at 08:33 AM

Reading comprehension helps. Re-read "Low carbing is only one option, and too many people sell it as panacea."

4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:02 PM

I agree with Kelly. If you're losing lots of weight eating 400 g of carbs a day, you're a major outlier. It's great that it works for you, but don't get all pissy when someone points out that it's not a realistic option for most people.

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on May 22, 2012
at 08:37 AM

You're reading too much into it. When I write responses I assume people are healthy individuals, and can't be bothered to slather them with all kinds of disclaimers to cover my ass.

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on May 22, 2012
at 12:54 AM

@Shari So you raised my N=1 with your N=1? I also acknowledged that low carbing IS an option, but it's not the ONLY option - and perhaps not even the best option. Seems like low carbers are just as pissy and defensive as others.

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:51 PM

He is not an outlier, and his experiences are not atypical. In the context of resistance training (doesn't have to be HEAVY) I have had success with obese clients using carb refeeds. Our metabolisms are dependent on activity, so if you are cutting carbs because you are relativley inactive you are only masking the true problem of inactivity.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on May 27, 2012
at 09:53 AM

I can't believe Wisper got so many negative reactions just for saying that low-carbing isn't necessary. You can't deny most people lose weight on raw veganism, and low-carb diets are always considered necessary for weight loss. Jimmy Moore is a good example of why it doesn't necessarily work like that.

3
6ba6dc54fccbb9e01a07595137cecfa2

on May 21, 2012
at 08:13 PM

Paleo is low carb subjectively speaking when compared to the dietary norm of society.In order to use the fat burning advantage that is the paleo templates strength.One needs to stay between 150g which is high end and 50g which is low.More carbs could be needed for endurance training.

Paleo man would have to risk death climbing trees for fruit.There were no semi-dwarf apple trees like I have in the back yard.Not to mention the selection was crab apple only yummy.

Greens are 100 calories a pound and paleo had wild lettuce no romaine to be had.So take time to gather and 3 days to boil down all the toxins and you have 100 calories.This would be a waste of time and resources.

Can someone call themselves paleo and eat so many carbs that the paleo advantage is lost.Yes and then there are the career dieters who modify every diet to meet there comfort zone requirements.

High carb paleo is similar to low fat ice cream.It is a compromise that will be disappointing.Is it an option yes of coarse.

6ba6dc54fccbb9e01a07595137cecfa2

(92)

on May 21, 2012
at 11:58 PM

Basically the issue is can you have your cake/paleo fat burning advantage] and eat it to.If you can get 1+1 to equal 3 then yes you can.Good luck with that.

6ba6dc54fccbb9e01a07595137cecfa2

(92)

on May 21, 2012
at 11:50 PM

Survival requires adequate calories every day and fruit does not become ripe every day.Fruit does not meet protein or fat needs.The Inuit survived without fruit very well. The ice cream link is pun.com/lol.Fruit and fruit eating is fine.If you eat enough carbs/fruit the fat burning advantage will turn off.This is how the body works and it was not my idea.just in case someone was wondering.I must disclose I had a beautiful orange along with some blueberries earlier today. Wild crafting adequate calories via plants would impose strict logistical limitations.

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:44 PM

Maybe your paleo ancestors had a problem gathering yummy and starchy fruits and tubers, but MY paleo ancestors were great at it. I believe their favorite staple carb was cattail roots, which are plentiful and full of starch. Or, maybe you meant just paleo "man" had a problem gathering high carb foods. ;)

8634d4988ced45a68e2a79e69cc01835

(1617)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:31 PM

Fruit falls off trees, you know. ;-) I can pick up tonnes of edible fruit from my trees that are windfall. Just sayin!

B04787f664abf9bebc28f71bf7825a3c

(877)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:40 PM

lol "high carb paleo is similar to low fat ice cream" let's have some links! Also, there is a fruit which grows grapes directly on its trunk for non-climbing animals to pick: http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on May 27, 2012
at 10:00 AM

*Paleo man would have to risk death climbing trees for fruit* hahaha that is so wrong I remember at my first school, where there were something like 20 apple, pear and prune trees, we would be able to get 100 pieces of fruit in 10 minutes if we wanted without any danger. Have you ever climbed a tree? *If you eat enough carbs/fruit the fat burning advantage will turn off.This is how the body works and it was not my idea* Tell that to Jimmy Moore... You've read Taubes too much.

2
1ccc0b0b7a756cd42466cef8f450d0cb

(1801)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:08 PM

I think a lot of it is blowback. When paleo first got started, it WAS synonymous with low carb. When people pointed out that they felt worse under this regimen, a lot of them were told that they were "doing it wrong" or needed to "stick with it". I was one of those folks and things got pretty bad for me before I finally gave up the low-carbing (and got much healthier as a result). It's important to respect that different things work for different people at different times in different circumstances. Having said that, I do understand the residual angst that some of us feel :)

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:17 PM

Of course, it's inevitable that *some* people are doing it wrong. That's certainly an issue with getting meaningful research on the subject.

5e63e3fa78e998736106a4a5b9aef58c

on May 21, 2012
at 08:18 PM

I got the "you're doing it wrong" and "you need to stick with it" stuff way back when I was a slim-but-sickly vegan. And again when I was eating a "healthy" low-fat, high-carb diet and still gaining weight while being hungry all the time. So I've learned the hard way that saying, "Maybe this just isn't the right way of eating for you. Have you tried [X, Y, or Z]?" is an infinitely more compassionate and helpful response to someone who is struggling.

2
1ea8d17bad42dc54fb7a8a178e3db309

on May 21, 2012
at 06:44 PM

Paleo, as it is construed today doesn???t have to mean low carb. It's often meant to be lower carb. Most Paleo folks didn???t have access to huge quantities of honey and fruit unless they lived in the tropics. But having access to everything all the time makes it easy to overindulge. And don???t forget, people eat this way for a variety of reasons. So it's easier to not preach and just let folks do it their own way. Because there's no way to know what their rationale is.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:20 PM

Being wealthy enough to overindulge at will wasn't common 70,000 years ago. Or even 100 years ago.

B04787f664abf9bebc28f71bf7825a3c

(877)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:02 PM

If you want to get technical about it, it is surmised that homo sapiens moved out of Africa a mere 70,000 years ago. So most of our human ancestors may indeed have access to tropical fruit for a better part of the year.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:20 PM

Limited access perhaps. It's not a good survival option if you ask me.

B04787f664abf9bebc28f71bf7825a3c

(877)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:00 PM

If you want to get technical about it, it is surmised that homo erectus moved out of Africa a mere 70,000 years ago. So most of our human ancestors may indeed have access to tropical fruit for a better part of the year.

1
F31d10b54b31428e189d9b771bf7b1d1

on May 21, 2012
at 10:57 PM

I find it very useful to watch documentaries about modern folk visiting primitive folk. There are a bunch of these films on Netflix. Not every tribe visited is fully paleo, but all of the tribes are way closer than we are. One thing that happens quite often is that some tribal person will happen upon a bee's nest. African pygmies have figured out ways to handle the African "killer" bees without get stung. They put the bees to sleep with smoke and then they party. But obviously, they don't do this every day. In fact, one group did it only once or twice per year.

I strongly believe in the evolutionary theory of diet, the paleo diet. But what is the paleo diet. It is not always that same for different people. The folks in the far north got very few veggies and virtually zero fruit. The folks in the tropics got much more fruit and less meat and lots of coconuts. Most of us modern people are going to be a mixture of different genes.

My wife is strictly a tropical girl. If you want to know what the paleo diet is, you need to look at many documentaries about primitive people. The words "caveman" or "paleolithic" is just not very educational. Weston Price found many healthy people amongst the so-called primitives; we can learn plenty from them. (This is another good reason to protect them from the encroachments of modern civilization.)

After being confused for a few days regarding my wife, who was born of Filipino parents, I decided that tell her, "Your diet should correspond to the diet that your ancient ancestors had before Magellan and any other "outsiders" got there." She said, "you mean fish, veggies, and rice." And my hand passed before us and I said, "For you, forget the rice". (Her father died of complications from metabolic syndrome.) For her, knowing what HER paleo diet should be is pretty easy. But my ancestors go back much farther to pre-agricultural ways, 20 times farther back in time, and it is a little more difficult to know what MY paleo diet is. And this does not factor in that 1/4 of my genes come from Portugal and 3/4 (probably, maybe, perhaps) come from northern Europe.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 28, 2012
at 06:16 PM

I know what you mean but I'm not sure that it is as simple as looking at our family origins. I'm a Brit and as far as I can tell, all of my ancestors for the past few generations originate from all countries of the British Isles. You might guess that I do well with minimal fruit and plenty of fatty meat and you would be right but there seems to be a few people on here that I would guess, do not have origins much different to mine but claim to do well with diets that include a lot more fruit and a lot less fatty meat. Some of these people seem to be eating fairly "Tropical"

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:49 PM

What???s with the jihad against low-carbers?

Oh it's jut jealousy that they havn't got what it takes to stick to it. ;) lol

246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21430)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:52 PM

*just Just playing with you Warren, had to put in a little tit-for-tat.

1
Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 21, 2012
at 07:45 PM

I garnered my PR for downvotes for saying that the mixture of carbs and fats was the atomic bomb of the obesity epidemic. So I've seen nasty backlash for dissing fat, even when that fat is all vegetable, and combined into chips and cakes. I say so what. Paleohacks is a dialectic not a jihad. A Punch n Judy show. Don't go away mad.

0
F31d10b54b31428e189d9b771bf7b1d1

on May 21, 2012
at 10:30 PM

Part of the problem here may be the semantic mistake of not distinguishing between good carbs and bad carbs. Just as there are good fats and bad fats, there are also good carbs and bad carbs. Obviously, for anyone 4 tablespoons of sugar is bad. And obviously, some people do OK if not good with bananas.

And this will vary for different people. Remember that we are all damaged people. Some people have been more damaged than others. We have all been damaged from a phucked up cuisine, the standard American diet, aggravated by the low-fat stupid-science. I am new to all of this, so I can't say exactly what is best for me, but I think that I may be a close-to-no carb person.

My fasting glucose levels are OK, but I still have numbness on the skin on my right knee, as though I were diabetic. Consequently I think that my postprandial (shortly after a meal) glucose levels spike terribly high. This may be because of genetics (as in evolution) and it may be because of being damaged by the standard American diet. But everyone is different.

0
A9007c998e3b924deebbe9ebb98d4db6

(340)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:06 PM

Among other things, this is a sign of the Paleo way becoming more mainstream. The early adopters tend to be more experimental and open-minded. As a result they are more open to new ideas and actual results (e.g., the validity of n=1 experiments). But now that we've become more popular, the fashionably hip and the like are now jumping on board. They tend to be a bit more reactionary and often hold a desire to be seen as ahead of the crowd. As a result they will be more quick to latch on to whatever looks like the latest Paleo concept of the moment and to let others see/hear them criticize anything contrary.

This is not to put down the serious non-low-carb proponents or anyone on the other side of the discussion; they are all essential to the whole Paleo discovery and have valid insights. Unfortunately, as is often the case, an overly-vociferous few often cause a whole category of folks to get painted in a bad light.

Bottom line, I think this is a sign of Paleo ideas reaching an ever-greater number of people. I say, hang in there .. you are not alone. Hopefully the down-voting etc won't become too discouraging because I am sure this Paleo wave will have increasing positive impact on people and our social and health institutions.

0
1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

on May 21, 2012
at 08:15 PM

I am probably a part of this "jihad" of which you speak. However, I don't ever down vote because I disagree, and I never do just because they are low carb. Although Joshua's answer is better, just coming from the other side (low carber). I firmly believe that carbs alone do not cause obesity or insulin resistance- that is caused by overconsumption of calories and/or sedentary lifestyle, as far as I'm aware. I think that it is unfortunate carbs have been blamed, when people overeat pizza, donuts, pop tarts, bagels, chips, ice cream, garlic bread, milkshakes, cheeseburgers, and the like. Labeling these foods as carbs is inaccurate- labeling them as processed food is. Actually, a large part if not the majority of the calories in these foods comes from fat, not carbs, so saying overeating carbs is ridiculous. I know a helluva a lot of asians who eat rice at breakfast, lunch, and dinner and are quite lean. I also don't see many obese people eating lots of fruit, vegetables, or plain rice when I have looked around at my campus cafeteria. I know lots of lean athletes who drink gatorade and eat pasta (however damaging it may be to their guts). I do not know any who follow a low carb diet (avg sub 50g per day). Personally, I feel, perform, and look better when I eat carbs. I am not aware of any study linking whole fruit consumption to obesity or insulin resistance, but I am aware of many linking fructose poor health outcomes. Fruit is not just fructose. I do actually really get annoyed by people who demonize this stuff. I don't want to have the athleticism or looks of Kresser, Wolf, Kruse, or Lustig ever, so why would I listen to these armchair nutritionists? Oh, that's right, I don't! I prefer people who are out on the field getting results and not dissecting studies to confirm their low carb bias.

Edit: Now I average roughly 150g per day over the course of the week, I'm guessing, but when I was rowing crew and playing soccer and swimming competitively, it was 300g a day easily. AM I obese and insulin resistant? Hell no. Was I when I was eating more carbs? No way. Do carbs make you fat and obese? Not in the real world.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:39 PM

I'd like Wolf's athleticism. 150g isn't high carb. Not knowing anyone who eats lower-carb doesn't lend you a great amount of perspective, and neither does being 22yo with a history of multiple and competitive sport during your formative years. If you're still foreveryoung in 50 years then perhaps it would mean more, but even then no-one is really arguing against 30% carbs as being manageable for a healthy, fit, active individual.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 10:01 PM

@ SB- I honestly could give a damn if you downvoted me. I have little experience why? (This is not rhetorical) is it because I did not allow myself to become morbidly obese?

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 22, 2012
at 01:15 AM

Again though, I trust you're not speaking from personal experience of addiction here.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 22, 2012
at 12:31 PM

Oh what happened to your charming comment about how you so cleverly chose not to become morbidly obese and are so superior to everyone else?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 10:25 PM

if you would like better we could exchange emails and sort our differences out privately and in a less cumbersome manner of exchange?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 22, 2012
at 01:02 PM

I never stated anything negative about anyone's character in my post. It is like saying this; "I like soccer but I am not going to take lessons from the commentators- they only know the rules, and player statistics. To actually improve my game on the field, I am going to seek out the athletes themselves, ask, observe, and mimic what they're doing." That is just honest.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 10:31 PM

nrhoff07@stlawu.edu

4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:22 PM

I don't think anyone's ever suggested that an athletic person will become obese because of eating 300g a day.

4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:20 PM

Why do you get annoyed? You've found what works for you, and that's what you should focus on. For the record, Robb Wolf isn't really an "armchair nutritionist". While he's not a trained nutritionist, he's a professional fitness instructor who has tons of personal training experience, as well as previous clinical experience.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:48 PM

You come across as having very limited experience and even more limited vision. This is what I object to. People who know little and have experienced little making statements like carbs don't' make you fat in the real world. People who say stuff like that deserve to be downvoted IMO.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:35 PM

That was misinforming. I do read paleo blogs- HGL and WHS are my go-tos.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 08:29 PM

I guess I get annoyed because I feel like it's unfair and misleading to present extrapolations from incomplete studies as truth about the real world. And as for my comments (purely physical in nature), it is just what I have observed from videos and pictures, as I have never met these people in person. I'm sure they are wonderful, but I'm not taking nutrition advice from them any day of the week. I like the stuff on HGL and HHS.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 22, 2012
at 12:56 PM

Honestly? I deleted it after reading a profile and deciding that it was harsh and offensive. However, I never attacked anyones character in my post and it was an honest answer on my thoughts on carbs. Then my character is attacked as someone who is narrow-minded and also inexperienced.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 10:26 PM

If you would like we can exchange emails and sort out our differences in a more private, less cumbersome manner of exhange?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 22, 2012
at 02:16 AM

Why do you say it like that? ALso, you would be wrong to assume that I have no past of addiction.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:41 PM

And regarding the junk food, the central question really is why people over-consume. Yes they contain a lot of calories from fat, but if that was all they contained would people eat as much? It's not as complicated as a lot of people like to make it, but the arguments are a little more subtle than you seem to acknowledge.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 10:41 PM

@ PD- I think you're referring to food reward, no? I definitely think that has some to do with the obesity epidemic, no doubt. But I do think that people's minds are more powerful and they can put down those foods when they want. If that were not the case, there would be no recovered drug addicts, anorexics, bulimics, etc. And yet, there are.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 21, 2012
at 10:44 PM

@ PD- You're referring to food reward, no? I def think that has something to do with the obesity epidemic, no doubt, but it's not a scape goat. Minds are more powerful than whatever addictive features processed foods may have, and one can certainly put them down at will. If your mind was not capable of telling you when to stop engaging in seriously addictive behavior, then there would be no recovered drug addicts, anorexics, or bulimics, and yet, there are millions.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 22, 2012
at 01:40 AM

Actually you would be incorrect on that account.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 22, 2012
at 01:04 PM

If you would like to continue this bickering elsewhere you can do so at my junk email address, nrhoff07@gmail.com.

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