13

votes

What's the current consensus re: carbohydrates and longevity?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created August 27, 2011 at 6:24 PM

I was reminded the other day about the section in GCBC regarding Cynthia Kenyon's research linking carbohydrates and longevity (that is, at least for C. elegans). Adding glucose to C. elegans' diet significantly reduced its lifespan via an insulin-mediated pathway.

Is anyone aware of other research which could support or may contradict her results? Could a VLC diet be as effective at extending lifespan as a calorie-restricted diet? (For that matter, do CR diets really work for extending human's lifespans? We do know CR diets work great for extending the lifespan of rhesus monkeys.) Is there an article or paper with a good overview of the current state of longevity research?

I wonder if the longevity topic eventually ends up going in the same direction of the obesity topic: that is, newer research and insights will prove that it's not all about carbs nor calories, but rather a combination of several NADs.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

... so also as usual, I believe the results might be different in those who consume on a regular basis a higher fat, low carbohydrate diet and are able to successfully burn fat (and ketones) as their primary fuel as opposed to glucose. In my study that I referenced, the participants were told, as was typical, to limit saturated fats for the first several weeks. Most continued to do so, and so this was stated in the study. I appreciate the comments and questions.

D31a2a2d43191b15ca4a1c7ec7d03038

(4134)

on November 08, 2011
at 07:58 PM

Ambimorph, thank you for the link. Very interesting conclusions. :) Rose, I'm betting my life on it, too. :)

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 11, 2011
at 08:32 PM

entailed that you explore other food sources for energy. Alternating between the two was probably the norm, but starch would have been a rather steady source of diet for most Paleo tribes.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 11, 2011
at 08:29 PM

Read Daphne Miller's The Jungle Effect: http://www.amazon.com/Jungle-Effect-Discovers-Healthiest-World-Why/dp/0061535656/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=ID78G1AKYN5GM&colid=2TFN9ZCU8KFO All ethnic tribes, unless they were limited in doing so due to climactic conditions (Inuits) or cultural inhibitions (Masais & other pastoralists), consumed starch as the staple food of their diet. Mainly out of necessity but also since it was easier than hunting: gathering tends to be a lot easier on one's limbs than hunting down a Mastodon or cape buffalo. Also, the occasional success of hunting,

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 11, 2011
at 08:25 PM

Pork consumption is greatly exaggerated, reserved for special occasions, just like pork is prized but consumes only occasionally in Polynesian islands. It is indisputable that these people live off of starch-based diets, heavy starch diets. They eat meat, yes. They do not consume dairy. They eat eggs, yes. But their meat consumption is certainly not exclusive nor even heavily preponderant; it's heavily balanced by starches (yams, sweetpoes, yuca, cassava, taro). I don't see how you can escape this conclusion.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 11, 2011
at 08:18 PM

Dr. Ron, the book you cite amounts to only qualitative and anecdotal evidence of Okinawan longevity. Similar things can be said about the Manana culture of Latin America, the joie de vivre of French Canadians, the happy go lucky ignorant bliss of certain groups of society ... these are observational stereotypes and do not account to great degree the overwhelming longevity of the Okinawans. Purple sweet potatoes are not terrifically fibrous, yet they are the staple food for many Okinawans. In comparison to the mainland, these people consume less fish.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 11, 2011
at 02:22 PM

where?????????????

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 11, 2011
at 01:48 PM

Yes, actually, that's a good point, Cliff. There is an association between longevity and lower T3 levels.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 11, 2011
at 01:03 PM

"Free T3 decreased 7%" Isn't ths significant regarding longevity?

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on September 23, 2011
at 12:35 AM

if you speak i am finding a way to attend

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 02, 2011
at 07:56 AM

I was one of the first to champion insulin's prime role in health. I believe now that research over the last 15 years has shown leptin to be dominant in obesity and lipogenesis, controlling hunger, organismal reproduction, thyroid, even diabetes.. In other words I believe it is the dominant hormone that controls the hypothalamus, considerably more than insulin. Insulin plays a dominant role in cancer. I would be very happy to speak at the next AHS meeting as I believe that there are several extremely important points to be voiced that Lustig and others miss. Thank you Quilt for the plug..

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 01, 2011
at 10:44 PM

"This study [Caloric Restriction, the Traditional Okinawan Diet, and Healthy Aging] lends epidemiologic support for phenotypic benefits of CR in humans and is consistent with the well-known literature on animals with regard to CR phenotypes and healthy aging."... I have not seen a breakdown of the calories eaten, but it's known that they eat more fish and fibrous vegetables and lower calories. Simple logic could conclude that they eat fewer non-fiber carbohydrates, which, along with reduced stress, may account for their increased average lifespan.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 01, 2011
at 10:34 PM

In the most comprehensive study pertaining to the Okinawan diet and longevity entitled, "Caloric Restriction, the Traditional Okinawan Diet, and Healthy Aging" published in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, the following was found; “Findings include low caloric intake and negative energy balance at younger ages, little weight gain with age, life-long low BMI...and survival patterns consistent with extended mean and maximum life span." The study concluded... (next comment)

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 01, 2011
at 09:56 PM

There are many speculations of why Okinawans have a high number of centenarians. It does appear that they eat a low retain calorie diet. What Nick Lane has said is the following,p 275 “Oxygen”, “based on a 25 year study, the book [The Okinawa Way written by a Japanese cardiologist] argues that the secret of the Okinawans... goes beyond genes, diet, and exercise to their relaxed lifestyle and low level of stress. The Okinawans have a word for it, "tege", which means 'half-done': forget timetables, forget finishing today things that can be done tomorrow. I suspect they are probably right.”

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 31, 2011
at 01:57 AM

My blog on central leptin signaling is out and lays out how i see it based upon the latest neurobiology by the world expert in this area. I will stand by this work until I see something else that trumps it.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 31, 2011
at 01:54 AM

the synthesis of human leptin in mature adipocytes requires mTor signaling to be made.......This is not true in other species. And ironically it may have something to do with the fact human hypocretin neurons which carry leptin receptors are limited in number compared to other species and appear to be phyllogenetically quite young based upon Dr. Lecea's work at Stanford

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 31, 2011
at 01:50 AM

The okinawan supercentenarians have been found to have a genetic abnormality in th efirst cytochrome of their mitochondria that allows it to be less leaky to ROS. That is the reason they live longer.....it has nothing to do with their diet. This was even mentioned in Nick Lane's books.

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on August 30, 2011
at 03:59 PM

doesnt CR in this lifespan(like yours or mine) set up the NEXT generation for obesity and diabetes?

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 30, 2011
at 03:12 PM

Thank you Dr. Quilt, for your latest blog post on the topic.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 30, 2011
at 02:23 PM

forgot to answer about the inuits...will do so later...thanks for the comments

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 30, 2011
at 01:32 PM

yes, protein consumption depends on lean mass. in general, my recommendation is to eat approximately 1 g of pure protein per kilogram of lean mass per day. This varies depending on activity level, growth, and pregnancy. 3 ounces of meat (chicken, steak, fish, etc.) has roughly 20 g of protein. 2 pounds would be excessive.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 30, 2011
at 01:26 PM

Increasing average lifespan is nice but not near as powerful as extending youth and increasing maximum lifespan.. For that there are no human counterparts; only science as revealed in animal studies. That being said, the Okinawans eat considerably more fish than other groups and a higher percentage of carbohydrates as vegetables i.e. fiber as opposed to starches. Most of the fiber gets excreted, so Okinawans are likely relatively calorie restricted. Also, overindulging in food among Okinawans is very frowned upon. I don't know much about the Kitivans but I suspect much the same applies.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 30, 2011
at 01:19 PM

Also, does protein consumption depend on your lean body mass? i don't feel right unless i'm eating at least 2 lbs of meat a day.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 30, 2011
at 01:18 PM

after you get some sleep, Dr Rosedale, can you go a little deeper on your last comment. So the Okinawans, Kitavans and other healthy starch-centric cultures have longevity from CR?

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 30, 2011
at 01:15 PM

only time for a short comment..haven't slept yet... I talked decades ago about the detriments of fructose being even worse than glucose. It is an isomer of glucose and we cannot convert it into glucose very readily and it is therefore converts into fats much of which remains in the liver. Additionally, it glycates, or in this case more appropriately “fructosylates" many times more rapidly than glucose. As far as the Okinawans and other groups... we must distinguish between increasing maximal lifespan that CR can do and I believe my diet also can do, and increasing average lifespan...

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 30, 2011
at 12:16 PM

Cliff, wow 39 seconds apart and inquiring about the same thing hah.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 30, 2011
at 12:15 PM

Dr Rosedale, I know everyone is so tired of hearing about the kitavans but I must ask, how do you explain the longevity of groups such as the kitavans and okinawans and their extraordinary longevity? Also, do you differentiate between fructose and glucose sugars? I definitely feel better with moderate amounts of starch in my diet, however, I don't touch fructose. I think many around these parts have similar experiences. I appreciate your input.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on August 30, 2011
at 12:15 PM

Regarding your last quote why do inuits die relatively young on a low carb diet if life span and health were determined by that equation? or what about okiniwans who supposedly eat 90%+ carbohydrates?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on August 30, 2011
at 12:14 PM

Regarding your last quote why do inuits die relatively young on a low carb diet if life span and health were determined by that equation? or what okiniwans who supposedly eat 90%+ carbohydrates?

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 30, 2011
at 02:03 AM

Calorie restriction seems to be a long shot. There was one study where increasing the heat of the room negated the effects of calorie restriction. Usually cr induces shivering and a lowered body temp. Whoops :). Its probably good to be in energy balance at leAst though.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 29, 2011
at 08:20 PM

Coconut oil is one of the best fuels that exists...not so much because it turns into ketones, but because it is high in 12 carbon or less fatty acids, i.e. median chains and therefore those fatty acids first don't have to be broken down before being able to enter the mitochondria to burn. Therefore, the medium chain FAs in coconut oil are much more preferentially burned then stored.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 29, 2011
at 03:48 PM

Thank you Dr. Rosedale, for your wonderful book. Will you be offering an expension/update soon? I was longing for more detailed information.

76f3ead3aa977d876bcf3331d35a36e9

(4620)

on August 29, 2011
at 03:48 PM

Good stuff, Doctor. Where does coconut fit into your diet plan? As I understand it, majority of the fats in coconut are medium-chain saturated fats and are efficiently converted into ketones for energy (my understanding may be limited here).

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 29, 2011
at 12:25 PM

The more saturated a fat is, the more difficult it is to burn... especially for those unaccustomed to burning fat. And yes, there are papers that support this. This is why, as Andre has stated, I will limit saturated fats for the first several weeks after which one becomes more accustomed to the beta oxidation of fats. Thereafter, I don't mind them much.. I am far more against the over consumption of omega six fatty acids. There are also many papers that have shown a reduction in insulin sensitivity with the over consumption of saturated fats. These, as usual,have been done on high carbers...

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 09:06 PM

Paleo 2.0 I think you raise a good point but he has links to a Harvard Study on why he believes it. That data just is not convincing enough to me. There is no good data on sat fat really.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 09:04 PM

Andre.....read it long ago. Does not mean I agree with it. I understand why he said it but like I said below I am not sure I can buy it. It really is a small issue in the great landscape of this discussion

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on August 28, 2011
at 08:55 PM

The paper that was referenced here on a "Diet Designed to Reduce Aging" seemed to go out of its way to exclude saturated fats, and the specific quote at the bottom of his answer specifically excluded saturated fats. So it would seem that his "answer" posted here says to exclude saturated fats for longevity purposes. I though he might want to comment on it.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 28, 2011
at 07:27 PM

The above paragraph is copied from www.drrosedale.com

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 28, 2011
at 07:25 PM

LIMIT SATURATED FAT FOR THE FIRST THREE WEEKS When you want to lose weight, what you really want to lose is saturated fat. So stop eating it, at least for the first three weeks you are on the meal plan. Pass on the beef, pork, lamb and most dairy products and eat primarily fish, nuts, chicken, vegetables and no fat cheese. After the first three weeks on the meal plan, you can eat foods that are higher in saturated fat (such as lean beef, lamb and pork) although those wishing to continue losing weight should not eat very much of these foods.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 28, 2011
at 07:25 PM

If you read Dr. Rosedale's web or book, he plainly states that he prefers that you eat short chain fatty acids in the first 3 weeks of his diet. Like learning to ride a bike with training wheels. They are easier to burn and help you train your body to burn ketones rather than glucose. Once the 3 week window is passed, he then opens the door to eat SAT fat. Anyone who believes that Dr. Rosedale is excluding SAT fat has not either read or understood the words in his book and web. This is from his web...to follow

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 28, 2011
at 05:15 PM

@Mallory - I hope that's a heart because it sort of looks like a bum. It it is a bum, then I just don't know WHAT to think!

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on August 28, 2011
at 04:17 PM

i <3 dr rosedale

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:38 PM

I think CRON on a high carb low protein diet in humans has never been studied. I do agree the kitavans would be an ideal group to study. Their telomere length would be the first place I would look for sure. Dr Blackburn work here is pretty well known now.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:37 PM

Paleo 2.0. True because they are very insulin sensitive hepatically and peripherally at muscle levels. They also deplete glycogen stores a lot and it takes a lot longer to overwhelm the liver with shear glucose than it does fructose because of it's biochemistry. Lustig is spot on this. But Aging data says igf1 signaling is badmfor longevity. I have seen nothing on kitavans and longevity.....I'd love to see that data. My guess is their is not too many supercentarians....but they do eat very low protein amounts to stimulate mTor. So it's possible they could.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:33 PM

But how it's an issue is where we don't see eye to eye

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:32 PM

Are thinking about protein. I have my theories why this is has caused him some anger but I don't have a dog in that hunt. I'm interested in the truth. Right now saying all protein is bad for mTor is akin to saying all carbs are bad for insulin signaling. We know that is not true. There is where our differences are. Wemprobably agree more than most of you think. But this thread is focusing in on don't. I'm not married to any theories yet. I'm thinking out loud. I happen to think Lustig is wrong on leptin and insulin. I think however Lustig is correct that fructose is major issue

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:28 PM

Here is my rub with this. Carbs are a large family and distinct. Dr rose dale makes this point well. Glycemic vs non glycemic carbs. I agree 100% with him. He believes all protein is bad. He said so in e first thread he engaged me. I'm saying protein is just like carbs. Those that stimulate the insulin pathways are bad for longevity. Those that don't are fine. He disagrees. If carbs as a macro Can be split in his theory why can't proteins? I'm not being dogmatic here. I think it's an open question. I understand why he feels the way he does. But he needsmto think about what other

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:24 PM

Moreover, in diabetics it works extremely well in improving leptin sensitivity and decreasing insulin pathways. It's no paradox. Dietary saturated fat is not a problem for the brain.....but the saturated fat made from de novo lipogenesis in fructose metabolism is quite interesting. This is made with out an insulin response at all and it's metabolism must be all handled by the liver. Its biochemistry is quite different and I think this is why the fats made from this pathway are a very different animal than the one in coconut oil. this is where the rubber meets the road for me,Lustig,rosedale

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:23 PM

Fortunately for me, I'm nor suffering any noticeable performance right now. However, if I were, it would be easy to add targeted carbohydrates around performance needs that make only a small perturbation in ketosis. Even if it put me out for two hours a day, I'd still be getting huge benefits from the remaining time in ketosis.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:22 PM

Fortunately for me, I'm nor suffering any noticeable performance right now. However, if I was, it would be easy to add targeted carbohydrates around performance needs that make only a small perturbation in ketosis. Even if it put me out for two hours a day, I'd still be getting huge benefits from the remaining time in ketosis.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:20 PM

This data flies in the face of the stance that saturated fats might cause unfettered gluconeogenesis in humans. I think this is what tripped up cordain initially and is an issue for other who believe that saturated fats are evil. Coconut oil is 92% saturated and is the best shredding food we have. It is handled totally differently than other fats and this seeming paradox has to be explained fully by the saturated fat is bad for crowd. To date I have read zero that convinces me. The data in my own specialty is over whelming in support of it's use for brain diseases.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:16 PM

I think some people have looked the hypothalamic signaling and wiring of the brain gut studies and made the leap that since the brain appears to sense lipid levels at the circumventricular organs and modulates the hepatic response via control of the gluconeogenic enzymes they believe that dietary saturated fat maybe a trigger to hyperglycemia seen T2d. One big problem. Clinical experience and data on the ketogenic diet especially one that loaded with MCT (coconut oil) has been shown to demolish insulin signaling and cause a lot of weight loss and improve diabetics and increase cognition

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:06 PM

So I ask you, do you agree with lustig's new position on his theory on the genesis of pediatric metabolic syndrome or do fall more in line with the work of Martin Meyers at michigan who says the exact opposite?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:05 PM

I posted on here that I would love to see you speak at AHS 2012. The reason is that I wouldnlove to hear your take on Lustig's recent talk on fructose and metabolic syndrome. He made some major leaps on the role of insulin being dominant with respect to leptin in the brain. I have my own thoughts on this but I am not with dr. Lustig at all on insulin. He definitively stated at 37:10 to 39:13 in his talk he says insulin blocks leptin and called it an endogenous leptin antagonist at the brain level. If this were true then no diabetic would ever have a child ever. Leptin controls fecundity

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:34 PM

I m also not totally with you on your stance on saturated fat.....but I have an open mind there. I think the thing that concerns me the most is some of the dogmatic statements that you have made about protein and saturated fat that is not rock solid as yet. What telomere biology science comes up with I think will help clear that up. I don't think lower phyllogenetic species can be said for primates and humans yet. The human CRON data is years away. And the primate data is very mixed now to make any calls on way or the other.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:21 PM

Do I agree with you that eades may have over stepped issues the other way on protein especially bcca's ......yes I do.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:20 PM

As for credit......I give it to those who did the basic Research and I cite them often. I have also spoke highly of you but I think with regards to protein things may have been too lumped in with the insulin signaling pathways and on igf 1 IRS 1 and two. So in summary.......the only place we serious disagree is on a protein diet in the setting of a low insulin low inflammatory state. That should make it clear

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:16 PM

Science daily I will maintain your not current on your protein hypothesis. I have said many times here I agree with much of what you have written. Just not all of it. I also think the new info coming out of university of Michigan on the leptin receptor and insulin signaling maybe not totally congruent with all the things you have written. But that is far from clear as yet.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:13 PM

The main point I disagree with you on is MTor and protein. I do agree BCCA is not optimal but there is zero evidence in primates and humans that protein diet in the face of a low insulin levels and low cellular inflammation is oncogenic as you have stated here on this site before. That is contrary to what the telomere biology is showing. In fact Carnosine levels have been shown recently to increase telomere length and directly affect mitochondrial leakiness at the first cytochrome. This is in direct contrast to your position. So until I hear from DES Blackburn and delphino who do this

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:12 PM

What about the exclusion of saturated fats from your high fat diet?

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:04 PM

@The Quilt – would it not come down to fasting blood glucose levels rather that “carbs” per se? I believe I have read that many less industrial cultures have typical fasting blood glucose levels much lower than industrial countries no matter what the carb ratios are.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 28, 2011
at 12:16 PM

Almost all the information about the pertinence of insulin, leptin, mTOR, and IGF to health that other people are now talking about (often incorrectly) including “The Quilt” and writing about, originated from my writings and talks so many years previously, that many don't now know (or care to credit) their origin.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 28, 2011
at 12:09 PM

I have been told by many notable doctors and scientists that I was way before my time… Actually, it is extremely frustrating to me that, even though my thoughts have been highly referenced and some were derived from just plain common sense ("don't feed sugar, or foods that turn to sugar to a diabetic"), and that we all could be considered partially diabetic and should follow the same guidelines, all of my original concepts and ideas are still being debated and are not fully being understood or followed, as I know them to be correct, and I have not seen any studies that could disprove them...

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 28, 2011
at 11:50 AM

More recently (over 5 years ago) I believe I was the first to speak of the powerful association between protein, BCAA, mTOR, cancer and aging (in the above highly referenced and published medical talk and others). The information in that talk is still very current, much discussed, and as far as I know still very correct. I would very much like “The Quilt” to state what he feels are "outdated" as he himself currently talks much about concepts (including his comments below about mTOR,BCAA [not BCCA],protein, IGF, Sirt1, "fat burning" that seem to be taken directly from that seminal talk.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 28, 2011
at 10:33 AM

I long ago (17 years?) presented to several medical groups the then unknown concept of “glycemic index” introduced in an obscure paper by David Jenkins in 1981 and the importance to aging of the apt acronym AGE's (advanced glycated end products). I talked about cardiovascular disease being secondary to inflammation and not cholesterol in the mid-1990s. Virtually everything that I have said over the years has stood the test of time and shown to be correct supported by many dozens of subsequent studies...

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 28, 2011
at 10:29 AM

..so as to be able to reproduce at a future more nutritionally opportune time. Meredith is correct; I taught about the vital connection of insulin to health and aging for almost 20 years, long before others (See “Insulin and its Metabolic Effects” all over the Internet), and was also first to talk and write about the strong link between leptin, health, and longevity and have been doing so for 15 years. I was the first to show the reversal of diabetes using a low carb, higher fat diet and later argued against my then partners' (the Eades) high protein diet..

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 28, 2011
at 09:24 AM

That talk is not at all outdated...New findings have only further supported what I have said for 20 years. I had even talked to Cynthia Kenyon over lunch about the design of her worm study several years before it was done..and it showed what I knew it would show... that the health and longevity benefits of caloric restriction are not due to caloric restriction but are due to keeping certain nutrient sensing hormones including insulin at a low level, and this massively changes genetic expression to a longevity profile that nature has evolved and endowed us with to outlive a perceived famine...

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 04:49 AM

Yes being a fat burner life long is best for longevity. Humans live longer when they live a life of hormetic stresses.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 04:48 AM

of course it is......It is very energy efficient for mitochondria as I pointed out in my blog about discussing the possible Quantum effect of electrons from MCT. In fact the Kracken pointed out the biochemical reason for this in the comment section. The key is it is great for longevity but not for performance......so one has to make a decision as one ages. Performance or longevity. I think this decision will be answered very easily......by one issue. How we depeleted our stem cell supply the first 40 yrs of life. This is where endurance exercise comes in.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:35 AM

I'm betting my life on it, literally.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 28, 2011
at 12:16 AM

Okay - this I do get even if it makes me crazy because I want to eat melons. BUT what's with the glycolytic exercise? Why the HIIT and sugar burning exercise? If burning fat is better for longevity, wouldn't it be better to do slow moderate exercise? I need help here.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 27, 2011
at 11:42 PM

Thanks - it's mostly above my head. I'm trying to get enough kid free time to get to reading your blog again.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 27, 2011
at 11:01 PM

Meredith.....lots of new findings since that Rosedale talk. Lots of it is outdated. Just so you know that.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 27, 2011
at 10:58 PM

But Carbs directly influence IGF 1 levels.....and yes that is bad news. BCCA do the same for MTor. The basis of CRON is eating a low BCCA diet with enough fat. This stimulates Sirt 1 and confers the benefit.....to get it your inflammatory have to be low low low. So in small words........the only good carbs are veggies with low glycemic index for longevity. Telomere biology proves it. But the benefit to humans or primates is yet to be proved. In every other species it has been validated. Primate data is a real mixed bag. Human data is non existent.

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on August 27, 2011
at 10:18 PM

Yes inflammation is the true enemy, regardless of its genesis.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 27, 2011
at 09:06 PM

So, in small words, are you saying that it's not carbs per se that reduce longevity, but rather insulin-like growth factor in the presence of inflammation? And if that's the case, then it's *inflammation,* regardless of origin, that is the enemy? I just want to wrap my little pea-brain around this. Thanks.

Ec7cb2a7a68655954a01f03e95be1383

(1453)

on August 27, 2011
at 07:22 PM

As far as I know "Primal Body, Primal Mind" is partly devoted to the longevity concept both regarding VLC and calorie restriction.

  • 8ea84667a7f11ac3967f2ecfcad28ad8

    asked by

    (641)
  • Views
    7.1K
  • Last Activity
    1262D AGO
Frontpage book

Get FREE instant access to our Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!

7 Answers

14
5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 28, 2011
at 01:16 PM

Aging, and health, are not related to caloric restriction per se. It is related to nutrient sensing hormones and pathways that caloric restriction effects that in turn greatly influences genetic expression towards a longevity phenotype. The same hormones may be affected the same way in a non-caloric restricted manner using a low non fiber carbohydrate, moderate protein, and relatively high-fat diet; the same diet that I have used to successfully treat many chronic diseases of aging including diabetes, cardiovascular disease, obesity, and even cancer for over two decades.

Below is a link to a research paper by myself and a couple of associates published finally a couple of years ago titled Clinical Experience of a Diet Designed to Reduce Aging along with the abstract of a related presentation to the American Aging Association given several years previously. They might shed some light on your question. See also my comments under Meredith's (much appreciated) answer??? My book,The Rosedale Diet, also largely addresses that question. http://www.jarcet.com/articles/Vol9Iss4/Kohnilias.pdf

The American Aging Association June 4-7, 2004

Clinical Experience of a Diet Designed to Reduce Aging

R Rosedale*, E Westman

Rosedale Center for Metabolic Medicine, Broomfield CO Department of Medicine, Duke University Medical Center

The neuroendocrine theory of aging is associated with elevated levels of glucose, insulin and leptin. The objective of this study is to describe the metabolic effects of a nutritional program designed to reduce these correlates of aging. A retrospective chart review was performed of patients attending an outpatient metabolic management program utilizing instruction in a high-fat, adequate-protein, low-carbohydrate diet, the use of nutritional supplements, and periodic individual visits. The general dietary recommendation was approximately 15% carbohydrate, 25% protein, and 60% fat. Recommended sources of fat included raw nuts, avocados, olives and olive oil, flax and cod liver oil. The intake of protein was limited to 1.0 - 1.25 grams/kg lean body mass per day (increased for exercise to 1.25 grams/day). Recommended sources of protein included sardines, fish, eggs, tofu, poultry, wild meats, non-fat cheeses (cottage, ricotta, cream), and seafood. Only non-starchy, fibrous vegetables were acceptable. Nutritional supplements recommended daily were: L-carnitine 2000mg, alpha-lipoic acid 400mg, coenzyme Q10 100 mg, 1 tbsp cod liver oil, magnesium 300mg, potassium 300mg, vitamin C 1000mg, vitamin E 800mg, and a multivitamin. Medications were adjusted if needed. The mean duration of follow-up was 91.5 days (range 36-211). Thirty-one patients were identified with baseline and follow-up body weight, and fasting laboratory tests. The mean age of patients was 57.6 years, 53% were female. Over a mean follow-up of 91.5 days, body weight decreased 8.2% (p<0.01), fasting serum glucose decreased 8.3% (p=0.001). There were approximate 50% reductions in insulin, leptin, fasting serum triglyceride, and triglyceride/HDL ratio (p<0.001). Free T3 decreased 7% (p<0.001), while TSH did not change significantly. We conclude that a high-fat, adequate-protein, low-carbohydrate diet with nutritional supplementation led to improvements in serum factors related to the aging process in adherent patients. Further research regarding this nutritional approach and its relationship to aging is in order.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:12 PM

What about the exclusion of saturated fats from your high fat diet?

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 28, 2011
at 07:27 PM

The above paragraph is copied from www.drrosedale.com

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 28, 2011
at 07:25 PM

If you read Dr. Rosedale's web or book, he plainly states that he prefers that you eat short chain fatty acids in the first 3 weeks of his diet. Like learning to ride a bike with training wheels. They are easier to burn and help you train your body to burn ketones rather than glucose. Once the 3 week window is passed, he then opens the door to eat SAT fat. Anyone who believes that Dr. Rosedale is excluding SAT fat has not either read or understood the words in his book and web. This is from his web...to follow

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 29, 2011
at 08:20 PM

Coconut oil is one of the best fuels that exists...not so much because it turns into ketones, but because it is high in 12 carbon or less fatty acids, i.e. median chains and therefore those fatty acids first don't have to be broken down before being able to enter the mitochondria to burn. Therefore, the medium chain FAs in coconut oil are much more preferentially burned then stored.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on August 28, 2011
at 08:55 PM

The paper that was referenced here on a "Diet Designed to Reduce Aging" seemed to go out of its way to exclude saturated fats, and the specific quote at the bottom of his answer specifically excluded saturated fats. So it would seem that his "answer" posted here says to exclude saturated fats for longevity purposes. I though he might want to comment on it.

76f3ead3aa977d876bcf3331d35a36e9

(4620)

on August 29, 2011
at 03:48 PM

Good stuff, Doctor. Where does coconut fit into your diet plan? As I understand it, majority of the fats in coconut are medium-chain saturated fats and are efficiently converted into ketones for energy (my understanding may be limited here).

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

... so also as usual, I believe the results might be different in those who consume on a regular basis a higher fat, low carbohydrate diet and are able to successfully burn fat (and ketones) as their primary fuel as opposed to glucose. In my study that I referenced, the participants were told, as was typical, to limit saturated fats for the first several weeks. Most continued to do so, and so this was stated in the study. I appreciate the comments and questions.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 09:06 PM

Paleo 2.0 I think you raise a good point but he has links to a Harvard Study on why he believes it. That data just is not convincing enough to me. There is no good data on sat fat really.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 28, 2011
at 07:25 PM

LIMIT SATURATED FAT FOR THE FIRST THREE WEEKS When you want to lose weight, what you really want to lose is saturated fat. So stop eating it, at least for the first three weeks you are on the meal plan. Pass on the beef, pork, lamb and most dairy products and eat primarily fish, nuts, chicken, vegetables and no fat cheese. After the first three weeks on the meal plan, you can eat foods that are higher in saturated fat (such as lean beef, lamb and pork) although those wishing to continue losing weight should not eat very much of these foods.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 29, 2011
at 12:25 PM

The more saturated a fat is, the more difficult it is to burn... especially for those unaccustomed to burning fat. And yes, there are papers that support this. This is why, as Andre has stated, I will limit saturated fats for the first several weeks after which one becomes more accustomed to the beta oxidation of fats. Thereafter, I don't mind them much.. I am far more against the over consumption of omega six fatty acids. There are also many papers that have shown a reduction in insulin sensitivity with the over consumption of saturated fats. These, as usual,have been done on high carbers...

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 09:04 PM

Andre.....read it long ago. Does not mean I agree with it. I understand why he said it but like I said below I am not sure I can buy it. It really is a small issue in the great landscape of this discussion

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 11, 2011
at 01:03 PM

"Free T3 decreased 7%" Isn't ths significant regarding longevity?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 11, 2011
at 02:22 PM

where?????????????

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 11, 2011
at 01:48 PM

Yes, actually, that's a good point, Cliff. There is an association between longevity and lower T3 levels.

8
100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:46 AM

I have the strong suspicion that a ketogenic diet is longevity producing, even more so than CR, and without the concomitant malnutrition. Here's a paper that shows they have common mechanisms: The Neuroprotective Properties Of Calorie Restriction, The Ketogenic Diet, And Ketone Bodies.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:22 PM

Fortunately for me, I'm nor suffering any noticeable performance right now. However, if I was, it would be easy to add targeted carbohydrates around performance needs that make only a small perturbation in ketosis. Even if it put me out for two hours a day, I'd still be getting huge benefits from the remaining time in ketosis.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 04:48 AM

of course it is......It is very energy efficient for mitochondria as I pointed out in my blog about discussing the possible Quantum effect of electrons from MCT. In fact the Kracken pointed out the biochemical reason for this in the comment section. The key is it is great for longevity but not for performance......so one has to make a decision as one ages. Performance or longevity. I think this decision will be answered very easily......by one issue. How we depeleted our stem cell supply the first 40 yrs of life. This is where endurance exercise comes in.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:16 PM

I think some people have looked the hypothalamic signaling and wiring of the brain gut studies and made the leap that since the brain appears to sense lipid levels at the circumventricular organs and modulates the hepatic response via control of the gluconeogenic enzymes they believe that dietary saturated fat maybe a trigger to hyperglycemia seen T2d. One big problem. Clinical experience and data on the ketogenic diet especially one that loaded with MCT (coconut oil) has been shown to demolish insulin signaling and cause a lot of weight loss and improve diabetics and increase cognition

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:20 PM

This data flies in the face of the stance that saturated fats might cause unfettered gluconeogenesis in humans. I think this is what tripped up cordain initially and is an issue for other who believe that saturated fats are evil. Coconut oil is 92% saturated and is the best shredding food we have. It is handled totally differently than other fats and this seeming paradox has to be explained fully by the saturated fat is bad for crowd. To date I have read zero that convinces me. The data in my own specialty is over whelming in support of it's use for brain diseases.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:24 PM

Moreover, in diabetics it works extremely well in improving leptin sensitivity and decreasing insulin pathways. It's no paradox. Dietary saturated fat is not a problem for the brain.....but the saturated fat made from de novo lipogenesis in fructose metabolism is quite interesting. This is made with out an insulin response at all and it's metabolism must be all handled by the liver. Its biochemistry is quite different and I think this is why the fats made from this pathway are a very different animal than the one in coconut oil. this is where the rubber meets the road for me,Lustig,rosedale

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:35 AM

I'm betting my life on it, literally.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:23 PM

Fortunately for me, I'm nor suffering any noticeable performance right now. However, if I were, it would be easy to add targeted carbohydrates around performance needs that make only a small perturbation in ketosis. Even if it put me out for two hours a day, I'd still be getting huge benefits from the remaining time in ketosis.

D31a2a2d43191b15ca4a1c7ec7d03038

(4134)

on November 08, 2011
at 07:58 PM

Ambimorph, thank you for the link. Very interesting conclusions. :) Rose, I'm betting my life on it, too. :)

8
0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 27, 2011
at 08:53 PM

Actually Ron Rosedale has been talking about this for quite some time. A lot of what Nora Gedgaudas has to say on the MTor aspect of aging (which I understand NOT) has already been said by Rosedale years ago.

There are some great interviews on this site with Rosedale - http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2010/05/07/ron-rosedale-insulin-leptin-and-the-control-of-aging/

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 28, 2011
at 11:50 AM

More recently (over 5 years ago) I believe I was the first to speak of the powerful association between protein, BCAA, mTOR, cancer and aging (in the above highly referenced and published medical talk and others). The information in that talk is still very current, much discussed, and as far as I know still very correct. I would very much like “The Quilt” to state what he feels are "outdated" as he himself currently talks much about concepts (including his comments below about mTOR,BCAA [not BCCA],protein, IGF, Sirt1, "fat burning" that seem to be taken directly from that seminal talk.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 27, 2011
at 11:01 PM

Meredith.....lots of new findings since that Rosedale talk. Lots of it is outdated. Just so you know that.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 28, 2011
at 05:15 PM

@Mallory - I hope that's a heart because it sort of looks like a bum. It it is a bum, then I just don't know WHAT to think!

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 28, 2011
at 12:09 PM

I have been told by many notable doctors and scientists that I was way before my time… Actually, it is extremely frustrating to me that, even though my thoughts have been highly referenced and some were derived from just plain common sense ("don't feed sugar, or foods that turn to sugar to a diabetic"), and that we all could be considered partially diabetic and should follow the same guidelines, all of my original concepts and ideas are still being debated and are not fully being understood or followed, as I know them to be correct, and I have not seen any studies that could disprove them...

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 28, 2011
at 12:16 PM

Almost all the information about the pertinence of insulin, leptin, mTOR, and IGF to health that other people are now talking about (often incorrectly) including “The Quilt” and writing about, originated from my writings and talks so many years previously, that many don't now know (or care to credit) their origin.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:34 PM

I m also not totally with you on your stance on saturated fat.....but I have an open mind there. I think the thing that concerns me the most is some of the dogmatic statements that you have made about protein and saturated fat that is not rock solid as yet. What telomere biology science comes up with I think will help clear that up. I don't think lower phyllogenetic species can be said for primates and humans yet. The human CRON data is years away. And the primate data is very mixed now to make any calls on way or the other.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 28, 2011
at 10:29 AM

..so as to be able to reproduce at a future more nutritionally opportune time. Meredith is correct; I taught about the vital connection of insulin to health and aging for almost 20 years, long before others (See “Insulin and its Metabolic Effects” all over the Internet), and was also first to talk and write about the strong link between leptin, health, and longevity and have been doing so for 15 years. I was the first to show the reversal of diabetes using a low carb, higher fat diet and later argued against my then partners' (the Eades) high protein diet..

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:06 PM

So I ask you, do you agree with lustig's new position on his theory on the genesis of pediatric metabolic syndrome or do fall more in line with the work of Martin Meyers at michigan who says the exact opposite?

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on August 28, 2011
at 04:17 PM

i <3 dr rosedale

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:13 PM

The main point I disagree with you on is MTor and protein. I do agree BCCA is not optimal but there is zero evidence in primates and humans that protein diet in the face of a low insulin levels and low cellular inflammation is oncogenic as you have stated here on this site before. That is contrary to what the telomere biology is showing. In fact Carnosine levels have been shown recently to increase telomere length and directly affect mitochondrial leakiness at the first cytochrome. This is in direct contrast to your position. So until I hear from DES Blackburn and delphino who do this

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:21 PM

Do I agree with you that eades may have over stepped issues the other way on protein especially bcca's ......yes I do.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 27, 2011
at 11:42 PM

Thanks - it's mostly above my head. I'm trying to get enough kid free time to get to reading your blog again.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:16 PM

Science daily I will maintain your not current on your protein hypothesis. I have said many times here I agree with much of what you have written. Just not all of it. I also think the new info coming out of university of Michigan on the leptin receptor and insulin signaling maybe not totally congruent with all the things you have written. But that is far from clear as yet.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 28, 2011
at 10:33 AM

I long ago (17 years?) presented to several medical groups the then unknown concept of “glycemic index” introduced in an obscure paper by David Jenkins in 1981 and the importance to aging of the apt acronym AGE's (advanced glycated end products). I talked about cardiovascular disease being secondary to inflammation and not cholesterol in the mid-1990s. Virtually everything that I have said over the years has stood the test of time and shown to be correct supported by many dozens of subsequent studies...

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 28, 2011
at 09:24 AM

That talk is not at all outdated...New findings have only further supported what I have said for 20 years. I had even talked to Cynthia Kenyon over lunch about the design of her worm study several years before it was done..and it showed what I knew it would show... that the health and longevity benefits of caloric restriction are not due to caloric restriction but are due to keeping certain nutrient sensing hormones including insulin at a low level, and this massively changes genetic expression to a longevity profile that nature has evolved and endowed us with to outlive a perceived famine...

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:05 PM

I posted on here that I would love to see you speak at AHS 2012. The reason is that I wouldnlove to hear your take on Lustig's recent talk on fructose and metabolic syndrome. He made some major leaps on the role of insulin being dominant with respect to leptin in the brain. I have my own thoughts on this but I am not with dr. Lustig at all on insulin. He definitively stated at 37:10 to 39:13 in his talk he says insulin blocks leptin and called it an endogenous leptin antagonist at the brain level. If this were true then no diabetic would ever have a child ever. Leptin controls fecundity

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:20 PM

As for credit......I give it to those who did the basic Research and I cite them often. I have also spoke highly of you but I think with regards to protein things may have been too lumped in with the insulin signaling pathways and on igf 1 IRS 1 and two. So in summary.......the only place we serious disagree is on a protein diet in the setting of a low insulin low inflammatory state. That should make it clear

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 30, 2011
at 03:12 PM

Thank you Dr. Quilt, for your latest blog post on the topic.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 29, 2011
at 03:48 PM

Thank you Dr. Rosedale, for your wonderful book. Will you be offering an expension/update soon? I was longing for more detailed information.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 02, 2011
at 07:56 AM

I was one of the first to champion insulin's prime role in health. I believe now that research over the last 15 years has shown leptin to be dominant in obesity and lipogenesis, controlling hunger, organismal reproduction, thyroid, even diabetes.. In other words I believe it is the dominant hormone that controls the hypothalamus, considerably more than insulin. Insulin plays a dominant role in cancer. I would be very happy to speak at the next AHS meeting as I believe that there are several extremely important points to be voiced that Lustig and others miss. Thank you Quilt for the plug..

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on September 23, 2011
at 12:35 AM

if you speak i am finding a way to attend

6
5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 30, 2011
at 12:04 PM

Good point below, Travis. In fact, that is the point. It is not caloric restriction per se that mediates longevity; it is a change in, specifically down regulating, particular metabolic pathways that elicits the shift in genetic expression towards a longevity phenotype. These pathways must be intact as they are in non-genetically modified people for CR to have significant benefit. The latest science is showing that these pathways likely pertain to insulin and mTOR that are conserved in virtually all animal species, and I suspect the leptin pathway will be shown to be very significant in mammals including humans. This places (non-fiber) carbohydrates and excessive protein in the middle of the fray.

The calorie restriction protocol has been shown to extend lifespan in the vast majority of species studied. In many of these species, obesity is a non issue such as flies, worms, spiders, and many others. DBA2 mice are being studied as in the paper cited by Travis precisely because they are a known exception to the CR extending lifespan rule. But for every exception, you could likely find hundreds of studies since the 1930s that show caloric restriction extends lifespan in other strains and species. Research is being done to try to find out why exceptions exist.

The DBA 2 mice are quite weird aside from their well known non response to caloric restriction. CR increases their blood glucose rather than decreasing it as in almost all other species, including humans. This can hardly be called an insignificant difference. They also die of unusual diseases and also have some strange genetic defects affecting their brain manifested as hearing impairments and epilepsy I believe.

It is known that if you dietary restrict any animal too much it will tip the scale beyond hormesis and decrease lifespan. A 30% reduction in calories may be too much for this strain.

Attributing the lack of effect of caloric restriction on lifespan extension in this strain of mice to their being thin and non obese is far from conclusive and a hugh scientific leap, as these mice have many other genetic and metabolically relevant differences other than being thin. I would not sing the death knell to CR just yet.

It is quite possible and I would say probable that the lack of lifespan extension in this mouse strain is due to its inability to burn fat as opposed to glucose, secondary to the strange genetic abnormalities that the strain possesses including the maintenance of elevated glucose and therefore the likelihood and necessity of constantly burning it.

To summarize, the advantage to health and lifespan that caloric restriction elicits is not due to CR per se, but to changes in metabolic hormone signaling. Part and parcel of that change is the increased ability to effectively burn fat.

To quote from p 18 of my book, "I am often asked to briefly summarize what it is that establishes health. I can do this in a single sentence. 'Health and life span is determined by the proportion of fat versus sugar people burn throughout their lifetime'. The more fat you burn as fuel, the healthier you will be. The more sugar you burn as fuel, the more disease-ridden you will be, and the shorter will likely be your life."

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on August 30, 2011
at 12:15 PM

Regarding your last quote why do inuits die relatively young on a low carb diet if life span and health were determined by that equation? or what about okiniwans who supposedly eat 90%+ carbohydrates?

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 30, 2011
at 02:23 PM

forgot to answer about the inuits...will do so later...thanks for the comments

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 30, 2011
at 01:18 PM

after you get some sleep, Dr Rosedale, can you go a little deeper on your last comment. So the Okinawans, Kitavans and other healthy starch-centric cultures have longevity from CR?

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 30, 2011
at 12:16 PM

Cliff, wow 39 seconds apart and inquiring about the same thing hah.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 30, 2011
at 01:32 PM

yes, protein consumption depends on lean mass. in general, my recommendation is to eat approximately 1 g of pure protein per kilogram of lean mass per day. This varies depending on activity level, growth, and pregnancy. 3 ounces of meat (chicken, steak, fish, etc.) has roughly 20 g of protein. 2 pounds would be excessive.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 30, 2011
at 01:26 PM

Increasing average lifespan is nice but not near as powerful as extending youth and increasing maximum lifespan.. For that there are no human counterparts; only science as revealed in animal studies. That being said, the Okinawans eat considerably more fish than other groups and a higher percentage of carbohydrates as vegetables i.e. fiber as opposed to starches. Most of the fiber gets excreted, so Okinawans are likely relatively calorie restricted. Also, overindulging in food among Okinawans is very frowned upon. I don't know much about the Kitivans but I suspect much the same applies.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 31, 2011
at 01:50 AM

The okinawan supercentenarians have been found to have a genetic abnormality in th efirst cytochrome of their mitochondria that allows it to be less leaky to ROS. That is the reason they live longer.....it has nothing to do with their diet. This was even mentioned in Nick Lane's books.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 30, 2011
at 01:19 PM

Also, does protein consumption depend on your lean body mass? i don't feel right unless i'm eating at least 2 lbs of meat a day.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 30, 2011
at 12:15 PM

Dr Rosedale, I know everyone is so tired of hearing about the kitavans but I must ask, how do you explain the longevity of groups such as the kitavans and okinawans and their extraordinary longevity? Also, do you differentiate between fructose and glucose sugars? I definitely feel better with moderate amounts of starch in my diet, however, I don't touch fructose. I think many around these parts have similar experiences. I appreciate your input.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on August 30, 2011
at 12:14 PM

Regarding your last quote why do inuits die relatively young on a low carb diet if life span and health were determined by that equation? or what okiniwans who supposedly eat 90%+ carbohydrates?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 31, 2011
at 01:54 AM

the synthesis of human leptin in mature adipocytes requires mTor signaling to be made.......This is not true in other species. And ironically it may have something to do with the fact human hypocretin neurons which carry leptin receptors are limited in number compared to other species and appear to be phyllogenetically quite young based upon Dr. Lecea's work at Stanford

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on August 30, 2011
at 01:15 PM

only time for a short comment..haven't slept yet... I talked decades ago about the detriments of fructose being even worse than glucose. It is an isomer of glucose and we cannot convert it into glucose very readily and it is therefore converts into fats much of which remains in the liver. Additionally, it glycates, or in this case more appropriately “fructosylates" many times more rapidly than glucose. As far as the Okinawans and other groups... we must distinguish between increasing maximal lifespan that CR can do and I believe my diet also can do, and increasing average lifespan...

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on August 30, 2011
at 03:59 PM

doesnt CR in this lifespan(like yours or mine) set up the NEXT generation for obesity and diabetes?

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 01, 2011
at 09:56 PM

There are many speculations of why Okinawans have a high number of centenarians. It does appear that they eat a low retain calorie diet. What Nick Lane has said is the following,p 275 “Oxygen”, “based on a 25 year study, the book [The Okinawa Way written by a Japanese cardiologist] argues that the secret of the Okinawans... goes beyond genes, diet, and exercise to their relaxed lifestyle and low level of stress. The Okinawans have a word for it, "tege", which means 'half-done': forget timetables, forget finishing today things that can be done tomorrow. I suspect they are probably right.”

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 01, 2011
at 10:34 PM

In the most comprehensive study pertaining to the Okinawan diet and longevity entitled, "Caloric Restriction, the Traditional Okinawan Diet, and Healthy Aging" published in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, the following was found; “Findings include low caloric intake and negative energy balance at younger ages, little weight gain with age, life-long low BMI...and survival patterns consistent with extended mean and maximum life span." The study concluded... (next comment)

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 01, 2011
at 10:44 PM

"This study [Caloric Restriction, the Traditional Okinawan Diet, and Healthy Aging] lends epidemiologic support for phenotypic benefits of CR in humans and is consistent with the well-known literature on animals with regard to CR phenotypes and healthy aging."... I have not seen a breakdown of the calories eaten, but it's known that they eat more fish and fibrous vegetables and lower calories. Simple logic could conclude that they eat fewer non-fiber carbohydrates, which, along with reduced stress, may account for their increased average lifespan.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 11, 2011
at 08:29 PM

Read Daphne Miller's The Jungle Effect: http://www.amazon.com/Jungle-Effect-Discovers-Healthiest-World-Why/dp/0061535656/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=ID78G1AKYN5GM&colid=2TFN9ZCU8KFO All ethnic tribes, unless they were limited in doing so due to climactic conditions (Inuits) or cultural inhibitions (Masais & other pastoralists), consumed starch as the staple food of their diet. Mainly out of necessity but also since it was easier than hunting: gathering tends to be a lot easier on one's limbs than hunting down a Mastodon or cape buffalo. Also, the occasional success of hunting,

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 11, 2011
at 08:32 PM

entailed that you explore other food sources for energy. Alternating between the two was probably the norm, but starch would have been a rather steady source of diet for most Paleo tribes.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 11, 2011
at 08:25 PM

Pork consumption is greatly exaggerated, reserved for special occasions, just like pork is prized but consumes only occasionally in Polynesian islands. It is indisputable that these people live off of starch-based diets, heavy starch diets. They eat meat, yes. They do not consume dairy. They eat eggs, yes. But their meat consumption is certainly not exclusive nor even heavily preponderant; it's heavily balanced by starches (yams, sweetpoes, yuca, cassava, taro). I don't see how you can escape this conclusion.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on October 11, 2011
at 08:18 PM

Dr. Ron, the book you cite amounts to only qualitative and anecdotal evidence of Okinawan longevity. Similar things can be said about the Manana culture of Latin America, the joie de vivre of French Canadians, the happy go lucky ignorant bliss of certain groups of society ... these are observational stereotypes and do not account to great degree the overwhelming longevity of the Okinawans. Purple sweet potatoes are not terrifically fibrous, yet they are the staple food for many Okinawans. In comparison to the mainland, these people consume less fish.

5
Medium avatar

on August 29, 2011
at 07:16 PM

Regarding caloric restriction, I was under the impression that it only extended the life of animals with a strong genetic predisposition (due to our engineering) toward obesity. In those cases, caloric restriction was necessary to fend off obesity, and all of the longevity-reducing things that come with it:

http://www.physorg.com/news151928423.html

It seems like caloric restriction is a ham-handed way to reduce oxidative stress.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 30, 2011
at 02:03 AM

Calorie restriction seems to be a long shot. There was one study where increasing the heat of the room negated the effects of calorie restriction. Usually cr induces shivering and a lowered body temp. Whoops :). Its probably good to be in energy balance at leAst though.

2
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 27, 2011
at 08:49 PM

Igf 1 pathways can be bad if there is back round cellular inflammation. This depletes the stem cell supple and the organ become senescent. When a cell is senescent it has two options apoptosis or cancer. The more inflammatory the terroir is the more likely your develop cancer. High protein diets with inflammation do thensame thing to the mTor pathway

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 04:49 AM

Yes being a fat burner life long is best for longevity. Humans live longer when they live a life of hormetic stresses.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 27, 2011
at 10:58 PM

But Carbs directly influence IGF 1 levels.....and yes that is bad news. BCCA do the same for MTor. The basis of CRON is eating a low BCCA diet with enough fat. This stimulates Sirt 1 and confers the benefit.....to get it your inflammatory have to be low low low. So in small words........the only good carbs are veggies with low glycemic index for longevity. Telomere biology proves it. But the benefit to humans or primates is yet to be proved. In every other species it has been validated. Primate data is a real mixed bag. Human data is non existent.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 27, 2011
at 09:06 PM

So, in small words, are you saying that it's not carbs per se that reduce longevity, but rather insulin-like growth factor in the presence of inflammation? And if that's the case, then it's *inflammation,* regardless of origin, that is the enemy? I just want to wrap my little pea-brain around this. Thanks.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on August 28, 2011
at 02:04 PM

@The Quilt – would it not come down to fasting blood glucose levels rather that “carbs” per se? I believe I have read that many less industrial cultures have typical fasting blood glucose levels much lower than industrial countries no matter what the carb ratios are.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:33 PM

But how it's an issue is where we don't see eye to eye

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:37 PM

Paleo 2.0. True because they are very insulin sensitive hepatically and peripherally at muscle levels. They also deplete glycogen stores a lot and it takes a lot longer to overwhelm the liver with shear glucose than it does fructose because of it's biochemistry. Lustig is spot on this. But Aging data says igf1 signaling is badmfor longevity. I have seen nothing on kitavans and longevity.....I'd love to see that data. My guess is their is not too many supercentarians....but they do eat very low protein amounts to stimulate mTor. So it's possible they could.

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on August 27, 2011
at 10:18 PM

Yes inflammation is the true enemy, regardless of its genesis.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:28 PM

Here is my rub with this. Carbs are a large family and distinct. Dr rose dale makes this point well. Glycemic vs non glycemic carbs. I agree 100% with him. He believes all protein is bad. He said so in e first thread he engaged me. I'm saying protein is just like carbs. Those that stimulate the insulin pathways are bad for longevity. Those that don't are fine. He disagrees. If carbs as a macro Can be split in his theory why can't proteins? I'm not being dogmatic here. I think it's an open question. I understand why he feels the way he does. But he needsmto think about what other

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 28, 2011
at 12:16 AM

Okay - this I do get even if it makes me crazy because I want to eat melons. BUT what's with the glycolytic exercise? Why the HIIT and sugar burning exercise? If burning fat is better for longevity, wouldn't it be better to do slow moderate exercise? I need help here.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:38 PM

I think CRON on a high carb low protein diet in humans has never been studied. I do agree the kitavans would be an ideal group to study. Their telomere length would be the first place I would look for sure. Dr Blackburn work here is pretty well known now.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 31, 2011
at 01:57 AM

My blog on central leptin signaling is out and lays out how i see it based upon the latest neurobiology by the world expert in this area. I will stand by this work until I see something else that trumps it.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 28, 2011
at 03:32 PM

Are thinking about protein. I have my theories why this is has caused him some anger but I don't have a dog in that hunt. I'm interested in the truth. Right now saying all protein is bad for mTor is akin to saying all carbs are bad for insulin signaling. We know that is not true. There is where our differences are. Wemprobably agree more than most of you think. But this thread is focusing in on don't. I'm not married to any theories yet. I'm thinking out loud. I happen to think Lustig is wrong on leptin and insulin. I think however Lustig is correct that fructose is major issue

1
485bcefe7f1f7a6df1a293a826bf6137

on August 28, 2011
at 01:32 AM

First, of course, there's no proof, but it is illogical that primates would be the exception to the rule.

Second is my observation. Regardless of its origin, I consider the bible to be an historical account. In the earliest parts, closer to hunter-gatherer times, people were living several hundred years. As time passes, moving well into agriculture, lifespans decrease. I've never heard an explanation that makes sense. Cynthia Kenyon's research produces the missing puzzle piece IMO. It also explains why we didn't breed like rabbits during H-G times.

Answer Question


Get FREE instant access to our
Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!