5

votes

Recovery from too few carbs

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created March 10, 2012 at 9:03 PM

In June, I switched to the primal diet and I believe I really messed myself up. All summer long, I was trying to lift and sprint and stay active while eating under 50 (most times under 30g) carbs, and I never made the connection that I was hurting my body. In August, I had low testosterone (low total, low free, low LH) and low thyroid (Free T3). I was put on T cream and Armour thyroid. I kept eating low carb, even as my symptoms worsened. Taken off of meds in December,and after various tests, she said my lab results were abnormal but my symptoms were non-specific, so she released me. I then found out that I'm also anemic.

So, I did some searching online, and oops: eating very low carb for too long can mess with your endocrine system. That explains the dead metabolism, terrible mood, mental fog, cold hands/feet, and muscle wasting. So now I'm trying to get a grip on this stuff and would appreciate any help/advice.

I noticed that I put on water weight 2 weeks ago when I started upping my carbs, but my mood, temperature, and workouts have improved immensely. I live on campus, so my food sources are limited. Carbs = sweet potatoes, quinoa, peas. Protein = chicken, tuna, whey, liver, greek yogurt. Fats = avocado, walnuts, coconut oil. I can get pretty big ass salads for lunch, so that's not a problem.

I'm shooting for around 120g carbs on moderate cardio days and ~210-220 on heavy lifting days, around 50 on my off days. 170-190g protein, and I eat high fat/low carb on my off days. Sticking to about 2000 calories a day. 200 lbs, 5'11, 21 year old male. Since my testosterone and thyroid are down, I don't think my BMR is very high, so its hard for me to gauge whether I'm eating too much or too little.

I have noticed that after being low carb for so long, if I have 1/4 cup quinoa (31 carbs) for breakfast at 8am and a sweet potato for lunch at 11:30 (60g carbs), I'm ready to fall asleep by 1. I hear you're supposed to eat higher carb on workout days, but my energy just crashes and it seems counter-productive. Should I concentrate my carbs a few hours before and after my workouts? Any advice?

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 12, 2012
at 05:14 AM

Cliff-So this is all about moving the goalpost (what hypo means), or this is about liver glycogen, or both? So 40% of the population is now hypo, 35% more than before, and this accounts for all the noobs at the drs office? "Paging Dr Razor, Dr Occam Razor..."

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 12, 2012
at 05:07 AM

Cameron- welcome to the world of the thyroid patient. The #1 complaint is probably symptoms persist when doc says numbers are good enough. There is even a book with that name. We are used to people telling us stuff we know is crap!

645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

(364)

on March 12, 2012
at 02:32 AM

All these medical studies and science articles are nice, but if I felt like shit, I don't really care what some alternative doctor says about a low Free T3 being beneficial.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 12, 2012
at 02:03 AM

Because it's based on their T3 lab numbers. The number ranges for T3 are based on the idea that 5% of the population has hypothyroid because they figured out how to test for T4 before they knew T3 was the active thyroid hormone even though using other tests for hypothyroid like achilles tendon reflex showed about 40% of the population was hypothyroid going by the T4 tests it looked like only 5% of the population had hypothyroid. When they found out T3 was the active hormone the idea that 5% of the population was hypothyroid stuck for some reason which is what they base the T3 ranges on.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 12, 2012
at 12:49 AM

Yuk. I don't agree at all with that Rosedale quote. Having lived through high rT3, I'm quite gunshy about going back. I'll look up that liver glycogen explanation and run it past my doc too, the one I get most the rT3 and thyroid info from. I'm pretty sure their view is restrictive dieting and yoyo dieting is what drives patients to them for thyroid, not low carb. It's not on their list of causes. If it should be, I want to know myself. Plenty of folks claim to do just fine on VLC and don't report the T3 or liver glycogen issue. What's missing?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 12, 2012
at 12:27 AM

Dr.Rosedale thinks the low T3 is good and will achieve him long life; I and many others do not believe this to be true and think high thyroid is good for optimum life quality and longevity."The reduction in free T3 is of great benefit, reducing temperature, metabolic damage and decreasing catabolism…. We are not talking about a hypothyroid condition. It is a purposeful reduction in thyroid activity to elicit health. Yes, reverse T3 is increased, as this is a normal, healthy, physiologic mechanism to reduce thyroid activity.”drrosedale.com/blog/2011/11/22/is-the-term-safe-starches-an-oxymoron/

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 12, 2012
at 12:18 AM

I don't get what your trying to find out? Low carbohydrate intakes lower thyroid in overfeed studies, underfeed studies and eucaloric studies. What kind of study do we need to do? We know the mechanism as well, reduced conversion of t4 to t3 due to depleted liver glycogen.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 10:56 PM

The first link is from a 7-month study on over feeding, not under feeding. I don't see the connection. My point is under feeding vs LC as a direct "put your finger on it" root cause for low T3. The second link is from a short term study of normal intake and various carb levels, and high intake (hypercaloric). We are discussing low feeding not high feeding. I think there are a lot of dead ends when you surf extracts to try and prove a weak assumption.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 10:36 PM

Here's some more studies- "During the weight-maintenance phases of the long-term overfeeding studies, concentrations of T3 were increased when carbohydrate was isocalorically substituted for fat in the diet." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC371281/?tool=pubmed "These data suggest that: 1) non-CHO as well as CHO sources are important modulators of plasma T3 concentrations in man; and 2) the influence of non-CHO calories may actually be more pronounced than that of CHO when at least a normal amount (-200 g) of CHO is ingested." http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/48/4/577.short

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 10:33 PM

The speculations and anecdotes seem to be coming from kruse. Its been shown in a couple studies that iodine restriction actually improves thyroid, I don't get how that has anything to do with this though as carbohydrates aren't some great source of iodine.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 09:35 PM

Isnt't that temporary? Wouldn't people just be feeling some kind of "low carb flu" and not literally be "hypothyroid?" I just read a comment by Kruse and he said people may make changes and simply not get enough idodine. Many other reasons exist. So far this looks like informed speculation and anecdotes.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 09:03 PM

The direct mechanism is liver glycogen. You need liver glycogen to convert t4 to t3 and low carbohydrate diets tend to deplete liver glycogen.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 09:02 PM

The calories were controlled for. LIke I said you can search google scholar and find numerous studies that come to the same conclusion that's why the authors of this study state "Dietary carbohydrate content is a major factor determining endocrine and metabolic regulation." Its just a fact of biology.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:46 PM

...in a short term study of a handful of people...and it's just as possible they did not eat enough. We can all pick through studies and find things to confirm bias. I'm looking for something that really points to exactly what is going on when people claim that LC hurt their T3 directly, when this happens, and how. If it is going to be accepted as a "truth," we need that at a minimum to back up the anecdotal reports.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:09 PM

From the link above "In contrast to the high and intermediate carbohydrate diets, carbohydrate deprivation decreased plasma T3 values (1·78 ± 0·09 and 1·71 ± 0·07 vs. 1·33 ± 0·05 nmol/l, respectively, P < 0·01), whereas reverse T3, T3 uptake and free T4 levels increased simultaneously compared to the other two diets."

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:08 PM

In contrast to the high and intermediate carbohydrate diets, "carbohydrate deprivation decreased plasma T3 values (1·78 ± 0·09 and 1·71 ± 0·07 vs. 1·33 ± 0·05 nmol/l, respectively, P < 0·01), whereas reverse T3, T3 uptake and free T4 levels increased simultaneously compared to the other two diets. "

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:06 PM

No. That quote is in regards to the increased protein catabolism. Carbohydrate restriction in this study increases your need for protein despite a decrease in t3 levels, in starvation the decrease in t3 decreases protein catabolism.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:03 PM

http://www.yellowstonepark.com/2011/06/yellowstone-grizzly-bears-eat-40000-moths-a-day-in-august/

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:03 PM

The environment(polyunsaturated fat) induces hibernation not just in squirrels but in all mammals. Cate is claiming that Yellowstone bears eat large amounts of carbs from berries than go low carb super fast when the berries run out so their rT3 goes up and they feel drowsy find a cave and snuggle up. LOL it's not based on reality. Bears in yellowstone can get 20,000 calories a day in the summer months from moths so I don't know where she gets her carbohydrate conclusion.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:00 PM

".. these discordant endocrine and metabolic changes following carbohydrate deprivation indicate that the effects of starvation on endocrine and metabolic regulation are not merely the result of carbohydrate deprivation." see link in comment above. It may be true that people who got better overnight after re discovering carbs were just under eating.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:58 PM

"... these discordant endocrine and metabolic changes following carbohydrate deprivation indicate that the effects of starvation on endocrine and metabolic regulation are not merely the result of carbohydrate deprivation..." Your link suggests that LC alone is not the explanation.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:44 PM

I mean thats a great article squirrels, which I suppose are obligate hibernators? I only saw break down of fatty acid profiles at the exclusion of other dietary factors though. Whatever really, Dr. Cate says "Reverse T3 has opposite effects of T3, and has long been associated with a set of symptoms aptly called hibernation syndrome—fatigue, weight gain, and so on..." It is just a naming of a set of symptoms, being that we all know that unlike squirrels we don't HAVE to hibernate.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:43 PM

you can find similar articles if you search google scholar

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:43 PM

"Eucaloric carbohydrate deprivation increases protein catabolism despite decreased plasma T3 levels." http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2265.2001.01158.x/abstract;jsessionid=33FC904B1F938186241DA0393852C367.d04t02?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

Medium avatar

(39831)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:32 PM

Cameron, you're still unnecessarily restricting carb intake. Just eat 200g+ every day for a while and see how you feel.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:30 PM

And believe me I understand that what I wrote is not a popular opinion to question the new dogma of up your carbs wisdom here on PH, but I'm fairly sure there is more to this to hash out (not your case in particular, just in general).

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:29 PM

And believe me I understand that what I wrote is not a popular opinion to question the new dogma of up your carbs wisdom, but I'm fairly sure there is more to this to hash out (not your case in particular, just in general).

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:25 PM

"Well, there are about 4 rounds of blood work and an MRI that I didn't post"....EXACTLY! That is all I was saying. Limited info "to us" leading to the knee jerk "up your carbs" seems a bit off to me. I'm not saying you should not try upping them. I do think however that if you can not tolerate low carb perhaps there are reasons, just like if one can not tolerate eating a moderate amount of carbs that indicates an issue as well. Just keeping things in perspective is all.

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:11 PM

"start sarcasm" It can't be that simple, can it? *end sarcasm*

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:27 PM

There is both confirmation bias and "correlation does not equal causation" all over this topic. Some of us see drs that lower carbs for low T3 and high rT3 and it works. Insulin resistance is a factor too. Some people are reporting better T3 with more carbs, but were they hypothyroid? Why do some do better on more carbs and some on less? There is more to it than we know. In the end you do what works for you.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:45 AM

Cate has no idea how hibernation works and is obviously too lazy to look it up on google before spewing her dogma, she basically made up some mechanism on how carbs trigger hibernation. Its been shown that animals fed diets containing relatively more polyunsaturated fatty acids 1) are more likely to hibernate, 2) hibernate earlier in the season, 3) have lower body temperatures/metabolic rates during torpor, and 4) have longer bouts of torpor than those given diets with lower levels of polyunsaturated fatty acids. http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/2/341.full.pdf

645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

(364)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:35 AM

Well, there are about 4 rounds of blood work and an MRI that I didn't post here. My T levels have improved 100 points every time I've been drawn, and since I've started upping the carbs, my symptoms have eased. I'm hoping my visit next week will shed light on the anemia, but I think I'm on the right track with everything else. I appreciate the input, but my gut reaction is that some confirmation bias may be at play; a lot of paleo folks equate it with "low carb", so any hint that that could be troublesome is met with fierce resistance. My body is my evidence, for what that's worth.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 04:31 AM

I love the disclaimer LOL.

645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

(364)

on March 11, 2012
at 04:24 AM

I have noticed that the first thing I reach for after a sweet potato induced bout of low energy is another sweet potato. I'll try to eat my carbs strategically around my work out, so I don't get the opportunity to "crash." I was eating my quinoa and potatoes between 9 and 12 AM, but not working out until 4 or 6pm.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 04:14 AM

I think what bugs cliff is she actually uses low carb with good result clinically.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:34 AM

Cate lives in phantasy land nothing she says is backed by science or reality.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:33 AM

I feel the same DFH. Worth looking into a bit more. I dunno, cliff's study lasts 11 days and uses 6 guys. Not a whole lot of data there. Guess I'll google it to see if there is something more substantial since 2001.

645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

(364)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:20 AM

Beth - I've been eating liver and eggs with my quinoa (which I soak over night with a bit of lemon juice), and I eat my sweet potatoes either with my lunch/dinner salads (chicken, tuna, eggs, veggies, avocado) or my post-workout meal of tuna or greek yogurt. DFH - http://drcate.com/going-low-carb-too-fast-may-trigger-thyroid-troubles-and-hormone-imbalance/

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 02:47 AM

carb restriction reduces t3 and raises Rt3 because you need liver glycogen to make t3 from t4. Here is one example http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2265.2001.01158.x/abstract;jsessionid=33FC904B1F938186241DA0393852C367.d04t02?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage= You can find many more if you search on google scholar

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 01:07 AM

Does anyone have conclusive (and revent) evidence that low carb alone does in fact harm tour T3, and what the mechanism is? My pet theory is that its really calorie restriction causing it (via higher rT3, which drives down T3.) I'm willing to hear another possibility, just haven't seen the source.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 11, 2012
at 12:27 AM

What else are you eating with your quinoa and sweet potato?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 11, 2012
at 12:00 AM

Ramp up. I was insulin resistant on VLC and tried eating an entire yam and ended up quite sick.

645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

(364)

on March 10, 2012
at 10:26 PM

Is there any danger is being very low carb (hypoglycemic, is that the word?) and the going that high? Like I said, I've been having a mix of plentiful energy for my workouts on some days, and energy crashes at mid-day on others.

645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

(364)

on March 10, 2012
at 10:23 PM

I too get 8-9 hours of sleep EVERY night and before I re-introduced carbs, it felt like I had been hit by a truck. It sucks. I'm hesitant to "binge" up to 300-400 because going straight down to 30g got me into this mess, and I'd hate to hit the polar extreme. I'd like to stay consistently around 150g every day and see what happens. I will say that my appetite has changed; could that be related to leptin? Also the increased fiber from potatoes is reeking havoc on my bowels. TMI?

645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

(364)

on March 10, 2012
at 10:21 PM

I don't know the type of anemia. I'm going to see my primary doctor on 3/19. I've been eating more liver for breakfast and taking sublingual B12 before workouts. I'll just have to wait and see what the blood work says.

  • 645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

    asked by

    (364)
  • Views
    13.1K
  • Last Activity
    1256D AGO
Frontpage book

Get FREE instant access to our Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!

9 Answers

6
E57d8e182251b61ccc6ada197c359d7e

on March 10, 2012
at 10:07 PM

I had the same issues as you but adding carbs fixed it in like a week. You may want to try and go super high carb for a day or 2 and see what happens. I am thinking 300-400 grams and then go into your goal carb grams and see what happens.

I was on VLC paleo for almost 7 months and then one day i went from feeling awesome to feeling like i got ran over by a truck and that I hadn't slept in weeks ( i slept 8-9 hours a night). I was listening to matt stone durning his anti-paleo presentation during the paleo summit and he had a slide that listed almost all the symptoms you mentioned and i was feeling. He said to fix these issue with clients he had to have the person add in alot of carbs for a few days. So the next day I had a "carb" binge and then i had some carbs at most meals over the next few days and I was back to feeling awesome again. Another plus was i had been on a plateau in almost everything weightloss, fatloss, fitness and i once i added the carbs back I started to progress again.

This paleo thing is a game of experimenting with what is good for you. If you gain a few lbs or have a negative while figuring this out so be it. The goal is to find what makes you feel the best you can be and this may change over time like the low carb thing.

Enjoy the journey, Matt

645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

(364)

on March 10, 2012
at 10:23 PM

I too get 8-9 hours of sleep EVERY night and before I re-introduced carbs, it felt like I had been hit by a truck. It sucks. I'm hesitant to "binge" up to 300-400 because going straight down to 30g got me into this mess, and I'd hate to hit the polar extreme. I'd like to stay consistently around 150g every day and see what happens. I will say that my appetite has changed; could that be related to leptin? Also the increased fiber from potatoes is reeking havoc on my bowels. TMI?

4
Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:08 PM

Lol forget this stupid dichotomy between carbs and fat, it's a waste of psychological energy and overall time. Your problem is you're 200 pounds and eating 2000 calories. Eat some more food, don't count calories, and don't think about carbs or fat--just eat them scrumptious whole foods. You should be good in a couple of days after that. Best of luck =)

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:11 PM

"start sarcasm" It can't be that simple, can it? *end sarcasm*

3
E4f858a9178422502c42b9719690e52c

(603)

on March 10, 2012
at 09:34 PM

Do you know what form of anemia you have? It's somewhat unusual for a young man to be anemic and depending on the cause could tie in with the other problems and help understand the overall pattern (e.g. if down to B12 deficiency or celiac it would imply an autoimmune picture and you could tailor your diet accordingly).

In general if you've got big hormonal problems after going low carb I think you're right to reintroduce starches but I would go further and eat them every day. Have a look at the Jaminet's website if you haven't already, including the various thyroid posts. After reintroducing starches from a low carb diet there's an adjustment phase just as there was when lowering them.

645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

(364)

on March 10, 2012
at 10:21 PM

I don't know the type of anemia. I'm going to see my primary doctor on 3/19. I've been eating more liver for breakfast and taking sublingual B12 before workouts. I'll just have to wait and see what the blood work says.

2
E23ab92be52d11508d93e39672789280

(100)

on March 10, 2012
at 10:10 PM

if you have low t3 then if it was me I'd be eating more carbs than you already are. 300-400 on active days. 150-250 on rest days.

645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

(364)

on March 10, 2012
at 10:26 PM

Is there any danger is being very low carb (hypoglycemic, is that the word?) and the going that high? Like I said, I've been having a mix of plentiful energy for my workouts on some days, and energy crashes at mid-day on others.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 11, 2012
at 12:00 AM

Ramp up. I was insulin resistant on VLC and tried eating an entire yam and ended up quite sick.

1
E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:44 PM

Here's a published paper that discusses over feeding increasing T3 and under feeding lowering T3.

"...Some reports suggest an increase in total T3 and decrease in rT3 induced by overfeeding. Treatment of obesity with hypocaloric diets causes changes in thyroid function that resemble sick euthyroid syndrome. Changes consist of a decrease in total T4 and total and free T3 with a corresponding increase in rT3..."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12055988

I still have not seen a recent paper that specifically points to low carb causing this, and not low calorie causing it at the same time, which makes it a confounding variable. We do have anecdotal reports from people that were LC and added crabs and claim more T3. Yeah, they ate more.

I suspect that, as usual, advice for an inactive hormone wreck with insulin resistance is going to be quite different from a healthy person that overtrained or under ate, or both.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:43 PM

you can find similar articles if you search google scholar

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 09:03 PM

The direct mechanism is liver glycogen. You need liver glycogen to convert t4 to t3 and low carbohydrate diets tend to deplete liver glycogen.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 10:33 PM

The speculations and anecdotes seem to be coming from kruse. Its been shown in a couple studies that iodine restriction actually improves thyroid, I don't get how that has anything to do with this though as carbohydrates aren't some great source of iodine.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 12, 2012
at 12:49 AM

Yuk. I don't agree at all with that Rosedale quote. Having lived through high rT3, I'm quite gunshy about going back. I'll look up that liver glycogen explanation and run it past my doc too, the one I get most the rT3 and thyroid info from. I'm pretty sure their view is restrictive dieting and yoyo dieting is what drives patients to them for thyroid, not low carb. It's not on their list of causes. If it should be, I want to know myself. Plenty of folks claim to do just fine on VLC and don't report the T3 or liver glycogen issue. What's missing?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 12, 2012
at 02:03 AM

Because it's based on their T3 lab numbers. The number ranges for T3 are based on the idea that 5% of the population has hypothyroid because they figured out how to test for T4 before they knew T3 was the active thyroid hormone even though using other tests for hypothyroid like achilles tendon reflex showed about 40% of the population was hypothyroid going by the T4 tests it looked like only 5% of the population had hypothyroid. When they found out T3 was the active hormone the idea that 5% of the population was hypothyroid stuck for some reason which is what they base the T3 ranges on.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:46 PM

...in a short term study of a handful of people...and it's just as possible they did not eat enough. We can all pick through studies and find things to confirm bias. I'm looking for something that really points to exactly what is going on when people claim that LC hurt their T3 directly, when this happens, and how. If it is going to be accepted as a "truth," we need that at a minimum to back up the anecdotal reports.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:43 PM

"Eucaloric carbohydrate deprivation increases protein catabolism despite decreased plasma T3 levels." http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2265.2001.01158.x/abstract;jsessionid=33FC904B1F938186241DA0393852C367.d04t02?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:08 PM

In contrast to the high and intermediate carbohydrate diets, "carbohydrate deprivation decreased plasma T3 values (1·78 ± 0·09 and 1·71 ± 0·07 vs. 1·33 ± 0·05 nmol/l, respectively, P < 0·01), whereas reverse T3, T3 uptake and free T4 levels increased simultaneously compared to the other two diets. "

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 09:35 PM

Isnt't that temporary? Wouldn't people just be feeling some kind of "low carb flu" and not literally be "hypothyroid?" I just read a comment by Kruse and he said people may make changes and simply not get enough idodine. Many other reasons exist. So far this looks like informed speculation and anecdotes.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 12, 2012
at 12:27 AM

Dr.Rosedale thinks the low T3 is good and will achieve him long life; I and many others do not believe this to be true and think high thyroid is good for optimum life quality and longevity."The reduction in free T3 is of great benefit, reducing temperature, metabolic damage and decreasing catabolism…. We are not talking about a hypothyroid condition. It is a purposeful reduction in thyroid activity to elicit health. Yes, reverse T3 is increased, as this is a normal, healthy, physiologic mechanism to reduce thyroid activity.”drrosedale.com/blog/2011/11/22/is-the-term-safe-starches-an-oxymoron/

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 10:56 PM

The first link is from a 7-month study on over feeding, not under feeding. I don't see the connection. My point is under feeding vs LC as a direct "put your finger on it" root cause for low T3. The second link is from a short term study of normal intake and various carb levels, and high intake (hypercaloric). We are discussing low feeding not high feeding. I think there are a lot of dead ends when you surf extracts to try and prove a weak assumption.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:06 PM

No. That quote is in regards to the increased protein catabolism. Carbohydrate restriction in this study increases your need for protein despite a decrease in t3 levels, in starvation the decrease in t3 decreases protein catabolism.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 12, 2012
at 05:07 AM

Cameron- welcome to the world of the thyroid patient. The #1 complaint is probably symptoms persist when doc says numbers are good enough. There is even a book with that name. We are used to people telling us stuff we know is crap!

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:58 PM

"... these discordant endocrine and metabolic changes following carbohydrate deprivation indicate that the effects of starvation on endocrine and metabolic regulation are not merely the result of carbohydrate deprivation..." Your link suggests that LC alone is not the explanation.

645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

(364)

on March 12, 2012
at 02:32 AM

All these medical studies and science articles are nice, but if I felt like shit, I don't really care what some alternative doctor says about a low Free T3 being beneficial.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 12, 2012
at 05:14 AM

Cliff-So this is all about moving the goalpost (what hypo means), or this is about liver glycogen, or both? So 40% of the population is now hypo, 35% more than before, and this accounts for all the noobs at the drs office? "Paging Dr Razor, Dr Occam Razor..."

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 09:02 PM

The calories were controlled for. LIke I said you can search google scholar and find numerous studies that come to the same conclusion that's why the authors of this study state "Dietary carbohydrate content is a major factor determining endocrine and metabolic regulation." Its just a fact of biology.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 10:36 PM

Here's some more studies- "During the weight-maintenance phases of the long-term overfeeding studies, concentrations of T3 were increased when carbohydrate was isocalorically substituted for fat in the diet." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC371281/?tool=pubmed "These data suggest that: 1) non-CHO as well as CHO sources are important modulators of plasma T3 concentrations in man; and 2) the influence of non-CHO calories may actually be more pronounced than that of CHO when at least a normal amount (-200 g) of CHO is ingested." http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/48/4/577.short

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:09 PM

From the link above "In contrast to the high and intermediate carbohydrate diets, carbohydrate deprivation decreased plasma T3 values (1·78 ± 0·09 and 1·71 ± 0·07 vs. 1·33 ± 0·05 nmol/l, respectively, P < 0·01), whereas reverse T3, T3 uptake and free T4 levels increased simultaneously compared to the other two diets."

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 12, 2012
at 12:18 AM

I don't get what your trying to find out? Low carbohydrate intakes lower thyroid in overfeed studies, underfeed studies and eucaloric studies. What kind of study do we need to do? We know the mechanism as well, reduced conversion of t4 to t3 due to depleted liver glycogen.

1
D117467bf8e8472464ece2b81509606c

(2873)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:49 AM

I've been doing great with a sweet potato AFTER a workout (which is usually late afternoon); I usually eat little to no carbs prior to a workout (my meal is usually ground beef, eggs, and a fist sized serving of green leafy veggies). If I have a lot of carbs too early, I get tired quickly and I'll want to eat more carbs... but I suggest eating a sweet potato or two after a tough workout session. It may take a little while for your body to get used to fact that it's getting the carbs after the workout, but if your experience is anything like mine, it will be pleasant.

Disclaimer: the above post is based solely on my personal experience, no scientific evidence was considered in formulating the answer!

645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

(364)

on March 11, 2012
at 04:24 AM

I have noticed that the first thing I reach for after a sweet potato induced bout of low energy is another sweet potato. I'll try to eat my carbs strategically around my work out, so I don't get the opportunity to "crash." I was eating my quinoa and potatoes between 9 and 12 AM, but not working out until 4 or 6pm.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 04:31 AM

I love the disclaimer LOL.

1
947a0b63867d80976e7d1614c6e408d7

on March 11, 2012
at 03:40 AM

I'm still new at this, but I'm also an avid exerciser. I've read a few places that carbs/protein should be eaten within a 30 minutes after the work out (for recovery). BUT, I suggest, paleo or not, that you should have some a few hours before too (even if it's as early as breakfast). Some fruit before the work out will give you energy, but something more complex earlier on will provide long lasting energy through the day. I've worked out before on zero carbs and felt like I was dead afterwards.

Google "paleo for athletes" and you'll find some good info out there. :) Happy lifting!

0
293ba4c95d190bc616b27d85b10d705a

(661)

on March 11, 2012
at 02:11 AM

i had a similar issue. my ft3 went to a 2.2 and now i eat more carbs but i'm afraid bc i have poor blood sugar, hyperglycemia at times.

-1
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 04:28 AM

I'm just gonna come out and say I doubt its a problem revolving around carbs. With low T,anemia and T3 and whatnot it looks to me like something that your going to have to figure out a bit further with your doctor. Just not enough info yet to know for certain what the issue is. Just FYI there are experts that argue that there are over 20 types of hypothyroid patterns and they are definitely not all fixed by just adding in carbs.

Not saying you shouldn't give it a try on the short term. Then possibly cutting em slowly like you showed in Dr. Cates article. But, there seems to be more to this IMO.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:29 PM

And believe me I understand that what I wrote is not a popular opinion to question the new dogma of up your carbs wisdom, but I'm fairly sure there is more to this to hash out (not your case in particular, just in general).

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:27 PM

There is both confirmation bias and "correlation does not equal causation" all over this topic. Some of us see drs that lower carbs for low T3 and high rT3 and it works. Insulin resistance is a factor too. Some people are reporting better T3 with more carbs, but were they hypothyroid? Why do some do better on more carbs and some on less? There is more to it than we know. In the end you do what works for you.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:30 PM

And believe me I understand that what I wrote is not a popular opinion to question the new dogma of up your carbs wisdom here on PH, but I'm fairly sure there is more to this to hash out (not your case in particular, just in general).

645be4f772c65ed78832224d35222893

(364)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:35 AM

Well, there are about 4 rounds of blood work and an MRI that I didn't post here. My T levels have improved 100 points every time I've been drawn, and since I've started upping the carbs, my symptoms have eased. I'm hoping my visit next week will shed light on the anemia, but I think I'm on the right track with everything else. I appreciate the input, but my gut reaction is that some confirmation bias may be at play; a lot of paleo folks equate it with "low carb", so any hint that that could be troublesome is met with fierce resistance. My body is my evidence, for what that's worth.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:00 PM

".. these discordant endocrine and metabolic changes following carbohydrate deprivation indicate that the effects of starvation on endocrine and metabolic regulation are not merely the result of carbohydrate deprivation." see link in comment above. It may be true that people who got better overnight after re discovering carbs were just under eating.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:25 PM

"Well, there are about 4 rounds of blood work and an MRI that I didn't post"....EXACTLY! That is all I was saying. Limited info "to us" leading to the knee jerk "up your carbs" seems a bit off to me. I'm not saying you should not try upping them. I do think however that if you can not tolerate low carb perhaps there are reasons, just like if one can not tolerate eating a moderate amount of carbs that indicates an issue as well. Just keeping things in perspective is all.

Answer Question


Get FREE instant access to our
Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!