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Paleo Summit Hack-a-thon: Jimmy Moore, 3/4

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created March 04, 2012 at 12:36 PM

What: The Paleo Summit (see also this post)

Who: Jimmy Moore ??? Podcaster, The Livin??? La Vida Low-Carb Show

Topic: How To Break Out Of The Grips Of Morbid Obesity And Embrace Healthy Living For Life. Morbid obesity doesn???t have to be a death sentence once you become armed with the real food nutritional lifestyle principles and fitness facts that are essential for optimal health. Be inspired and learn what it takes to overcome seemingly insurmountable challenges to attain the health you???ve always wanted.

What did you think of this presentation?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

I also think it's funny that paleo folks were MORE than happy to tar and feather Don from primal wisdom, but Jimmy is a sacred cow. Hmmm maybe because he confirms so many personal biases and generates hits.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 16, 2012
at 05:49 AM

Oh yeah, and PH needs to grow a pair. I don't know what's up with this fear of Jack Kruse, fear of calling bullshit on bullshitters, etc. Either way, it's not surprising that Dr. Kurt Harris - who represents the REAL intellectual capital of Paleo - went elsewhere.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 16, 2012
at 05:46 AM

Wow, can't believe this hasn't been closed yet. Argumentative! Subjective! OMG! At any rate, someone with the sufficient balls should hack Jimmy's latest n=1, a pricey, complicated, Rube Goldberg-esque scheme to measure blood ketones - all to arrive at the startling conclusion that one should "moderate" one's protein intake. Really? Couldn't one just paraphrase this conclusion by stating that, "No, Jimmy, you can't gorge yourself on protein - you must limit calories"? No, one could not do that. This is in fact more Low Carb Magic! Anyway, that's for minds more advanced than my own to hash out.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 29, 2012
at 05:31 AM

This isn't an ad Hominem attack. It's a critique of a person and their motivations. For this to be an A.H.A he'd have to be saying that X is untrue because Jimmy Moore is Y. Without the second part it's just a character critique, which might or might not be the nicest thing.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 28, 2012
at 01:20 PM

No more irrelevant than 99% of the answers here. I suspect Melissa would rather Kurt's provocative comment not gain traction/get exposure. That, or it's just censorship as one might expect over at LLVLC. I for one think Dr. Harris is correct. And for those defenders of Jimmy, explain to me how having a 300 lb. representative of 'low carb paleo' helps the ancestral health movement.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 28, 2012
at 11:53 AM

I didn't delete it, but since I can view the deleted answer, I suspect it is because it is irrelevant to the actual question about Jimmy Moore at the Paleo Summit.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 28, 2012
at 03:16 AM

Sorry, but that's just sounding supremely paranoid. I'm sure Jimmy is sitting in a throne somewhere, stroking a cat in his lap and laughing, "Bwa ha ha ha! Now I've got those Paleos right where I want them!" Whatever. Disagree with Jimmy's methodology all you want, but he's giving legit Paleo folks a platform and the world needs that message. I wish Kurt would return to actually having a message of his own instead of blasting everyone else for their erroneous messages.

F1b39d4f620876330312f4925bd51900

(4090)

on March 05, 2012
at 06:17 PM

I am right there with you Korion. That is damn funny! If I manage to choke down some liver, I am averse to food for quite a while. especially meat like beef.

1a641bbff1a7b0a70f08410376bbdf6b

(1587)

on March 05, 2012
at 02:34 PM

OR I just keep on expressing my honest opinion :) and thx for the suggestion, fortunately I haven't forgotten all of the Latin I had to learn in school :)

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 05, 2012
at 01:43 PM

You might want to look up "ad hominems" and avoid websites that can't stop using them, and avoid them yourself! :)

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on March 05, 2012
at 04:19 AM

Jimmy has a very popular blog and particularly podcast. It's a sure way of getting your product (if you have one) known and make some bucks.

0fb8b3d6dcfb279b0f7e050d2d22510f

(4645)

on March 05, 2012
at 03:48 AM

and go with your dogma? dont be an asshole. I know what works foir me and if I can't express that then take your dogma and shove it

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 05, 2012
at 01:54 AM

Very nice philosophy, Beth!

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 05, 2012
at 01:44 AM

Honestly...who really gives a crap if paleo and lc intertwine? We are wise enough...you know...us plebes...to figure out for ourselves where we fall in the spectrum. I'll take Stanton's "As you well recall from the evolution of your own diet, first paleo hitched a ride on low-carb’s coattails. Then it gained an independent existence. Now low-carb is returning the favor by hitching on paleo’s coattails." Jimmy Moore has never come off as not being genuine and transparent to me. I would not have found paleo as early and loved it as much without his podcasts. Melissa's is one of my favorites!

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 04, 2012
at 11:55 PM

Me too Nance, me too!

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on March 04, 2012
at 10:23 PM

Just want to say thanks Beth for doing these daily Paleo Summit posts. It's been great!

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 09:54 PM

this has been discussed here http://paleohacks.com/questions/53304/paleo-isnt-low-carb-anymore-but-it-kind-of-was

D12142c8cafb16d9af10b3362cb8fb62

(1590)

on March 04, 2012
at 09:40 PM

Paleo isn't low carb. Take your dogma back to the Church of Taubes.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 04, 2012
at 09:26 PM

Actually Dylan, if one looks back on his history, he had better control over his weight when he was eating a lot of the LC junk than now. Since going paleo he's added a good 10-20 lbs (depending on where he started as he purged weigh ins from his blog long before this switch) to his already considerable weight.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 09:14 PM

I have no problem with people making money with whatever they want, but I laugh at the idea that Jimmy LOVES paleo. He loves low-carb. And since it's a free market, we can have transparency about people's motivations and people can chose not to buy into stuff.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 09:12 PM

He DOES peddle junk food. Do you not notice the ads for processed low carb industrial garbage on his site and shows?

35a8b223ae5d863f17a8c9e3a8eed5eb

(571)

on March 04, 2012
at 09:08 PM

@ BaconHealsChic yeah and criticizing is free market Economy as well. Nobody wants to shut down Jimmy.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 04, 2012
at 08:59 PM

I respect your reaction, DFH, but I definitely qualified as an "obese hormone wreck due to SAD" last April. And it has worked beautifully for me although I needed gradual, 1-3 month stages of progressively more natural behaviors.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 08:45 PM

One right way depends on why they are here. I buy the ancient people were adapted for IF thing, but I don't buy it for obese hormone wrecks due to SAD that nature has no experience with! Paleo has some tools like that but they still need to be understood and used correctly.

22424c9eef944ade83d4e4ffda907056

(1402)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:58 PM

Jimmy is making a living from something near and dear to his heart: food. He makes money by peddling diet junk food. If he could manage to eat that stuff and be healthy, then it'd be fine, but he's a 300 lb. hormonal mess and he still preaches the shit like it works. It's not a crime, but selling products that are intended to support weight loss but actually hinder it seems like it either has to be unethical or ignorant.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:51 PM

Wow! An actual response to what he said instead of attacks on his character or marketing! AMAZING!

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 04, 2012
at 07:50 PM

@Beth, you may well be right there. It's mutual usuary if you ask me ;)

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:47 PM

Right on bacon! And as far as the Kurt Harris link that fella turns me off anymore. Seeing his rant about Jimmy and his post at gnolls.org as if he is the inventor of hierarchy for nutrition....meh.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:45 PM

I don't think that was Beth's intent at all. Some comments seem a little harsh to me but I think Beth was serving our PH community by providing a central format for discussion rather than 75 new splintered questions. My hat goes off to her! I hope we all learned a little in the past week.

Fb67dc30cead043d1d13ea503a3044dc

(3280)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:42 PM

Im with you, PaleoDel. :/

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:41 PM

Right now, yes, my experimentation is bearing more fruit than any particular article or blog. The point that there's no one "right way" doesn't seem to translate into cycling patterns as much as you might expect. People try a little IF and either establish a pattern or say it didn't work. They try low/high carb and do the same. If you really think about ancient people, the duh! is that everything was in cycles because they didn't have the lifestyle/resources in most cases to level everything to one "right way."

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on March 04, 2012
at 07:36 PM

Sadly, you may have along wait.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 04, 2012
at 07:26 PM

I'm sorry but when did it become a crime to make a living from doing something near and dear to your heart? If you don't like Jimmy's approach don't listen. It's called Free Market Economy--even in the paleo sphere.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:21 PM

I agree with Karen P.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:20 PM

Nance, good for you. Experimentation is working better than you will find on a blog it seems, no? The "one way" is my problem with low carb too. It's like a "single problem/single fix" approach, kinda like calories in/out. At least it works better than counting calories on packages of twinkies. One serious problem LC has is that people practice it without understanding it. They think ketosis is when you are burning fat, but it's really when you are peeing it. Paleo has issues too. I see people offering backwards advice a lot.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:09 PM

Corellation doesn't equal causation? Yeah, I think most people have figured that out. I posted a question about that 2 days ago, same thing. We ALL do it.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on March 04, 2012
at 06:55 PM

Who made Denise Minger the science sheriff? Who does she think she is making fun of a nice old man? There are an ever growing number of paleo critics, but there really aren’t any sheriffs in paleo because paleo has pretty much become a joke with people like Kruse and Young Earth Creationists. Next there will be homeopaths and aura readers at AHS. Maybe they can help paddle the big boat.

22424c9eef944ade83d4e4ffda907056

(1402)

on March 04, 2012
at 06:51 PM

There's definitely some truth that reducing carbs makes it easier to lose weight, that much is true. However, just because that's true doesn't mean that whatever reason you apply to it has to be true. You don't have to be ketogenic to benefit from reducing your carb intake. Stop thinking that just because you believe something that it has to be true. It's okay to prove something wrong, but it's downright stupid to insist that what you believe is true and that anything else must be wrong.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 06:32 PM

What, I'm not the paleo sheriff, I just like point out idiocy. It is my hobby. As I said, Kurt and I have no stake in this movement anymore. Calling me a paleo sheriff is hilarious. I'm only borderline "paleo" anyway.

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on March 04, 2012
at 06:18 PM

@Karen, the apocryphal ideal scientist lives to see the day when he/she is approached by someone else who says, "i've proven you wrong and here's my raw data." That's a mindset that not everyone can share because they like the warm sensations that the confirmation bias blanket provides--not saying this in accusation but it's a human tendency and everyone likes the warmth to a certain degree.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:56 PM

I never liked that wording either, but to the point, you are basically saying Sisson and much of Paleo is flat false, true? I took it as a given that Paleo for weight loss takes the basic fact into account that if you become keto adapted by reducing carbs, you have an advantage when it comes to weight reduction. Restricting carbs if you are keto adapted means burning stored fat. Try that if you ate not keto adapted and see what happens. It's not a myth.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 04, 2012
at 05:55 PM

Jimmy may be doing debates to drive hits, but I've thought it's been really about getting the names in the LC space to reassure him LC is the way.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:45 PM

Bill Belichick made Wes Welker sit out a series for talking about Rex Ryan's feet "thing". I am going to impose a similar penalty for you Melissa. One hour off Paleo hacks for Calling Jimmy a sacred "cow". How could you! :)

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:34 PM

Jimmy is definitely not a sacred cow, but he is more likeable. Maybe I don't know him as well as you.

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:34 PM

I don't agree you're "reprogramming your genes", I think that's marketing. By increasing your fat intake you're going to naturally promote satiety and eat less calories overall, prompting weight-loss. FWIW, I still eat a low carb PHD-style diet (as compared to SAD) although I'm a bit higher on protein and carbs due to my activity level (my macros are typically (50/25/25).

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:24 PM

Good revision. I still don't get why you think sugar burner/ fat burner is nonsense. I listened to Jimmy's interview with Sisson and that's a cornerstone of Sisson's Primal Blueprint. Look at the cover again. It say "Reprogram you genes for effortless weight loss..." are you saying Sisson is wrong and he should just say calories in, calories out?

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:21 PM

You make a good point here. I feel like Paleo, especially from the CrossFit camp, makes little acknowledgement that this can be HARD for some people. Culture is a very real force to be reckoned with.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:19 PM

@Melissa, please forgive me in advance, because I respect your take on many things, but... Who died and made you Paleo sheriff? Don't we all have to leave the door open to the possibility that we're all wrong about something?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 05:17 PM

Kurt and i are both outsiders and have nothing to profit from (unlike Jimmy)- idiocy just is infuriating to us.

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:12 PM

DFH, you're correct, it's not all that matters (I edited the post to try to refine my thought), but as far as weight loss is concerned it comes down to calories burnt vs calories consumed. Slathering everything with butter and cream does does no favors when it comes to weight loss. Calories ultimately reign supreme. Jimmy doesn't seem to accept this

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:07 PM

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:04 PM

Paleo is not a brand. There is nothing to protect. It's like you can't own or be the curator of "fast" or "new." :)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 05:02 PM

Karen, we can and i will call out people who purposefully misdirect debates for their own ends.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 05:00 PM

Yes and Jimmy obfuscates that because he pretends to be an objective arbiter- when in reality he is religiously devoted to low carb

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:59 PM

DFH, you're correct, it's not all that matters, but as far as weight loss is concerned it comes down to calories burnt vs calories consumed. Slathering everything with butter and cream does does no favors when it comes to weight loss. Calories ultimately reign supreme. Jimmy doesn't seem to accept this.

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:59 PM

Beth, I should've been more clear, I was referring to low intensity work on the treadmill, like walking at a brisk pace, which improves fatty acid oxidation (not jogging/running) and insulin sensitivity. It falls in line with his "move around at a slow pace" PB law.

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:58 PM

Beth, I should've been more clear, I was referring to low intensity work on the treadmill, like walking at a brisk pace, which improves fatty acid oxidation (not jogging/running) and insulin sensitivity. It falls in line with his "move around at a slow pace" PB law. DFH, you're correct, it's not all that matters, but as far as weight loss is concerned it comes down to calories burnt vs calories consumed. Slathering everything with butter and cream does does no favors when it comes to weight loss. Calories ultimately reign supreme. Jimmy doesn't seem to accept this

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:57 PM

Beth, I should've been more clear, I was referring to low intensity work on the treadmill, like walking at a brisk pace, which improves fatty acid oxidation (not jogging/running) and insulin sensitivity. It falls in line with his "move around at a slow pace" PB law. DFH, you're correct, it's not all that matters, but as far as weight loss is concerned it comes down to calories burnt vs calories consumed. Slathering everything with butter and cream does does no favors when it comes to weight loss. Calories ultimately reign supreme. Jimmy doesn't seem to accept this.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:54 PM

I think that it is funny though that Taubes #1 supporter on the internet is a Young Earth Creationist that doesn’t believe in science except when it validates his prior beliefs. It is also funny that such a person un-persuadable by science takes it upon themselves to arbitrate “debates” of scientific issues like safe starches. More like Young Earth Creationism – picking and choosing the nonsense that makes you feel better about your own beliefs.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:51 PM

4.....a lot. Grab a metbolism text and take a look some time.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:48 PM

I'm getting really weary of the character attacks on Jimmy and others. I feel like Kurt Harris has gone so vitriolic. There's a respectful way to disagree with folks, and that line has been obliterated in the Paleosphere (by many). There is a great divide between the professionals and the amateurs here, there always will be. We're all in search of optimal health and how to help others. We're all simple humans fumbling along doing the best we can. I wish we didn't feel the need to make it so damn hard for everyone else.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:43 PM

@Melissa, we don't get to choose who curates it. I get your frustrations and I share many of them. But nobody owns it. I'm trying to approach it as a big boat, not a small boat (to borrow a Buddhist idea).

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:42 PM

I'm not debating whether or not he is nuts, but I don't think it's required to "believe" in evolution to follow a Paleo template. (For the record, I do "believe" in evolution.) I'm not into attacking folks for their beliefs, and it slams the door in the face of far too many people when the nutritional stakes are very high. You don't have to believe in evolution to see that the 20th century was a complete left turn in terms of diet.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 04:38 PM

I agree it's a great start, particularly since low carb can be therapeutic for many disorders, but I'm sick of hearing about how it's the optimal for everyone or it's the sine qua non of paleo.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 04:37 PM

Yes, but if they try to curate the paleo movement even if they don't believe in the paleolithic, it makes them look disingenuous.

627cf3f5d1ddfb4c2f4c96169420f55f

(1621)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:35 PM

I believe in evolution 100% but if someone believes in creationism then I'll leave it at that. I'm not going to force anyone to change their religious beliefs. If that person wants to talk about it sure. Otherwise, I'll leave them alone.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:25 PM

For people entering this to loss weight, low carb is a simplistic way to do it. It's a single input theory that people like Atkins step people through. I see Paleo as low carb evolved, not just in terms of facts about how we humans work, but more in terms of how your body's changes and maintenance are a process, not a single input.

35a8b223ae5d863f17a8c9e3a8eed5eb

(571)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:09 PM

adam and eva ate tons of fruit

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 03:48 PM

Wait, the 6,000 year old Earth thing is BS now? :)

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 03:23 PM

On your #2, it's reads like a strawman. I think anyone would understand the deficit point, but it does not follow that it is all that matters. Read anything by Sisson. :)

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 04, 2012
at 03:18 PM

BTW Beth, back in 2005 when Jimmy was maintaining, he used to brag that he could eat 100g carbs per day. I really thought he'd go more higher carb at one point b/c even Atkins doesn't say stay low carb forever. This ketogenic level carbs for all eternity thing is rather new. There are a lot of gems in Jimmy's old blog posts.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 04, 2012
at 03:14 PM

Yep, and if memory serves that score was taken when he was close to his "goal weight", perhaps even 220.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 04, 2012
at 03:12 PM

Mark Sisson was an endurance athlete and I think that gives him a really warped view of the average Joe. The whole thing about paleo is to be active. For some that means getting to a gym and hopping on a treadmill for 45 min to an hour. It's that or nothing for a lot of people with desk jobs and long commutes. I live in a safe neighborhood and still you won't catch me out walking by myself after dark here. And in the winter, you won't catch me walking outside much period.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 04, 2012
at 03:06 PM

I should maybe add that, when I eat liver, I'm so grossed out by it that that may be the reason I'm not hungry for a while.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 04, 2012
at 03:06 PM

BTW, here's Mark Sisson on chronic cardio: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/chronic-cardio/#axzz1oA1e5gUy He's not really advocating 30-60 minutes on the treadmill, regardless of heart rate.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 04, 2012
at 03:01 PM

What's really curious is that LCers have hitched their wagons to pushing ketosis level of carbs. Those of us doing 100g of carbs a day are really on a low-carb diet compared to SAD (in fact, Paul Jaminet considers PHD a low-carb diet). Jimmy could continue to be a low-carb guru if he embraced this wider range of LC. But the whole "safe starches" debate seems to make this doubtful.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 04, 2012
at 02:58 PM

I think LCers don't give starches a fair shot. Just like you have low-carb flu when eliminating carbs, there is a transition period required to upregulate required enzymes and make previously insulin resistant cells more sensitive (Paul Jaminet has pointed out the latter). Folks like [email protected] have recommended the 150g of carbs for 3 days before doing an OGTT. I think the same would be prudent before you determine that your metabolism can't handle the carbs.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 04, 2012
at 02:55 PM

The recent discussions Chris Kresser and Chris Masterjohn have been having about the reliability (or not) of the LDL particle tests certainly gives me pause! Jimmy is also regularly mentioning his zero-level calcium score, but I know Kurt Harris has commented that he's not surprised given Jimmy's age.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 04, 2012
at 02:49 PM

*"If your Purity pizza is any indication, you eat a LOT -- In your video it looks like you put 3-4Tbs of butter on that!!!! That's 300-400 calories before anything else is added. I don't know where this "add fat to anything because low fat is evil" notion came from, but it is crazy to add tablespoons of butter to the bread used for a pizza because the bread is low fat."* hahahaha man that guy is a butter-freak.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 04, 2012
at 02:44 PM

He tried eating potatoes on top of his already hypercaloric diet in the form of sweet potato fries that he probably drowned in more butter. In candid shots he doesn't look all that healthy to me. He looks like he's aged way more than 8 years.

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17 Answers

20
E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:52 PM

At the risk of being shouted down, I want to stick up for Jimmy and note that much of this page goes beyond discussing his interview and its just ad hom Jimmy bashing. Try to argue the topic, not the person. If you disagree with someone, try to stay off their Facebook page looking for something to criticize!

Go to iTunes, look up Jimmy's new Ask the Low Carb Experts, and see if you think he's doing a bad job.

Sure, Jimmy was big, found low carb, got excited and wrote a book, did his news thing, and still struggles. Now his news thing is his business, and his struggle is part of it. Plenty of people in his situation identify with this and follow along, as Jimmy asks anyone who knows something about every topic he can find. Is that so bad? Paleo has answers and ideas. Paleo should be proud that others see common ground.

Most bloggers and writers come at you with what they figured out. Jimmy is still looking and some folks just follow along for the ride too. I'm on his forum, which is real slow, but there are still ideas there.

It's not harming anyone here or holding anyone back. Jimmy is bringing Paleo to low carb more than he's just trying to cling to low carb and it's single input theory. A lot of his readers/listeners are still those low carbers that think dieting means finding low carb bake mix. Don't expect too much. His business is trying to help people like that.

16
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 03:14 PM

I totally agree with Kurt Harris about Jimmy "As far as Jimmy goes, he simply can???t reassess low carb, even though he has already had countless guests explain to him that the CIH is wrong and why. Jimmy is basically boxed in at this point.

I used to think he was just a friendly, neutral ???journalist???. He is not. He is a creationist agenda pusher who earns his living based on people buying low carb dogma and he will avoid admitting he is addicted to food as medication until it does him in."

It's so annoying because he's disarmingly nice, but under the surface you can tell he's just attached himself to us because he's seen that interest in plain old low carb has declined. In the process I would say he's significantly derailed the movement. His latest post on the "carb debate" was totally unacceptable. Dr. Rosedale has nothing to do with paleo, Nora has no credentials or citations that qualify her to comment, and there is an assortment of other comments from people who couldn't give a crap about evolutionary biology. I see a pattern though. Jimmy will do a carb debate to generate hits that consists of one or two reasonable people to make it seem a little more legit and some copy and paste from some low carb MDs. I wish Sean had asked Jimmy if he even believes in evolution.

My advice for Jimmy: keep doing great podcasts, but your blog posts about paleo and the "safe starch" debate are a circle you-know-what at best and extremely misdirecting and inaccurate. Evolutionary biology and paleoanth are NOT your strong points and you also seem unable to pick people for those debates that know anything about those subjects.

Edit: There is an anti-Jimmy Moore person EatLessMoveMoore, who keeps posting "answers" here that are not discussions of the PaleoFX talk in question. "No more irrelevant than 99% of the answers here. I suspect Melissa would rather Kurt's provocative comment not gain traction/get exposure. That, or it's just censorship as one might expect over at LLVLC."

Wtf. I was the one who first publicized Dr. Harris' comments. The idea that I am censoring things critical of Jimmy is hilarious and absurd.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 04, 2012
at 07:50 PM

@Beth, you may well be right there. It's mutual usuary if you ask me ;)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 05:00 PM

Yes and Jimmy obfuscates that because he pretends to be an objective arbiter- when in reality he is religiously devoted to low carb

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:47 PM

Right on bacon! And as far as the Kurt Harris link that fella turns me off anymore. Seeing his rant about Jimmy and his post at gnolls.org as if he is the inventor of hierarchy for nutrition....meh.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:34 PM

Jimmy is definitely not a sacred cow, but he is more likeable. Maybe I don't know him as well as you.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:48 PM

I'm getting really weary of the character attacks on Jimmy and others. I feel like Kurt Harris has gone so vitriolic. There's a respectful way to disagree with folks, and that line has been obliterated in the Paleosphere (by many). There is a great divide between the professionals and the amateurs here, there always will be. We're all in search of optimal health and how to help others. We're all simple humans fumbling along doing the best we can. I wish we didn't feel the need to make it so damn hard for everyone else.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 04, 2012
at 05:55 PM

Jimmy may be doing debates to drive hits, but I've thought it's been really about getting the names in the LC space to reassure him LC is the way.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on March 05, 2012
at 04:19 AM

Jimmy has a very popular blog and particularly podcast. It's a sure way of getting your product (if you have one) known and make some bucks.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 04:38 PM

I agree it's a great start, particularly since low carb can be therapeutic for many disorders, but I'm sick of hearing about how it's the optimal for everyone or it's the sine qua non of paleo.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

I also think it's funny that paleo folks were MORE than happy to tar and feather Don from primal wisdom, but Jimmy is a sacred cow. Hmmm maybe because he confirms so many personal biases and generates hits.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 05, 2012
at 01:44 AM

Honestly...who really gives a crap if paleo and lc intertwine? We are wise enough...you know...us plebes...to figure out for ourselves where we fall in the spectrum. I'll take Stanton's "As you well recall from the evolution of your own diet, first paleo hitched a ride on low-carb’s coattails. Then it gained an independent existence. Now low-carb is returning the favor by hitching on paleo’s coattails." Jimmy Moore has never come off as not being genuine and transparent to me. I would not have found paleo as early and loved it as much without his podcasts. Melissa's is one of my favorites!

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 04, 2012
at 09:26 PM

Actually Dylan, if one looks back on his history, he had better control over his weight when he was eating a lot of the LC junk than now. Since going paleo he's added a good 10-20 lbs (depending on where he started as he purged weigh ins from his blog long before this switch) to his already considerable weight.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:45 PM

Bill Belichick made Wes Welker sit out a series for talking about Rex Ryan's feet "thing". I am going to impose a similar penalty for you Melissa. One hour off Paleo hacks for Calling Jimmy a sacred "cow". How could you! :)

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on March 04, 2012
at 07:26 PM

I'm sorry but when did it become a crime to make a living from doing something near and dear to your heart? If you don't like Jimmy's approach don't listen. It's called Free Market Economy--even in the paleo sphere.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 09:12 PM

He DOES peddle junk food. Do you not notice the ads for processed low carb industrial garbage on his site and shows?

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:25 PM

For people entering this to loss weight, low carb is a simplistic way to do it. It's a single input theory that people like Atkins step people through. I see Paleo as low carb evolved, not just in terms of facts about how we humans work, but more in terms of how your body's changes and maintenance are a process, not a single input.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:21 PM

I agree with Karen P.

22424c9eef944ade83d4e4ffda907056

(1402)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:58 PM

Jimmy is making a living from something near and dear to his heart: food. He makes money by peddling diet junk food. If he could manage to eat that stuff and be healthy, then it'd be fine, but he's a 300 lb. hormonal mess and he still preaches the shit like it works. It's not a crime, but selling products that are intended to support weight loss but actually hinder it seems like it either has to be unethical or ignorant.

35a8b223ae5d863f17a8c9e3a8eed5eb

(571)

on March 04, 2012
at 09:08 PM

@ BaconHealsChic yeah and criticizing is free market Economy as well. Nobody wants to shut down Jimmy.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 09:14 PM

I have no problem with people making money with whatever they want, but I laugh at the idea that Jimmy LOVES paleo. He loves low-carb. And since it's a free market, we can have transparency about people's motivations and people can chose not to buy into stuff.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 16, 2012
at 05:49 AM

Oh yeah, and PH needs to grow a pair. I don't know what's up with this fear of Jack Kruse, fear of calling bullshit on bullshitters, etc. Either way, it's not surprising that Dr. Kurt Harris - who represents the REAL intellectual capital of Paleo - went elsewhere.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 16, 2012
at 05:46 AM

Wow, can't believe this hasn't been closed yet. Argumentative! Subjective! OMG! At any rate, someone with the sufficient balls should hack Jimmy's latest n=1, a pricey, complicated, Rube Goldberg-esque scheme to measure blood ketones - all to arrive at the startling conclusion that one should "moderate" one's protein intake. Really? Couldn't one just paraphrase this conclusion by stating that, "No, Jimmy, you can't gorge yourself on protein - you must limit calories"? No, one could not do that. This is in fact more Low Carb Magic! Anyway, that's for minds more advanced than my own to hash out.

15
E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on March 04, 2012
at 02:50 PM

I'm so sick of these paleo dogmas:

1) Anything more than 5 minutes if getting your heart rate elevated is "chronic cardio". When Sisson talks about chronic cardio he's talking about running marathons, not 30-60 minutes on the treadmill.

2) Fat/Sugar burner nonsense. Metabolic ward studies have shown with regard to weight loss calories matter, and macro-nutrient composition is largely irrelevant for weight loss. I'm fine with eating a high fat diet, but if your goal is weight loss, you still need to maintain a caloric deficit. However, satiety may be affected by macro-nutrient ratios, and that's why low fat diets fail (people feel hungry all the time).

3) Paleo is low carb. All evidence points to the ancestral diet was around 50% carbohydrate.(See Paleolithic Nutrition 25 years later by Boyd Eaton). Low carb fundamentalists are latching on to paleo as their movement dies out.

4)Damaged metabolisms. Show me evidence of your "damaged metabolism".Thyroid panel?. If you're not refering to thyroid levels, what the hell are you talking about?

Jimmy needs to take his own advice "If you're diet is not woking, find the one that's right for you". Low carb isn't working for him, but since he's built a life around being a "low carb guru", he can't ditch it (lest the low carb pasta and quest bar sponsors will flee).

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 03:23 PM

On your #2, it's reads like a strawman. I think anyone would understand the deficit point, but it does not follow that it is all that matters. Read anything by Sisson. :)

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:57 PM

Beth, I should've been more clear, I was referring to low intensity work on the treadmill, like walking at a brisk pace, which improves fatty acid oxidation (not jogging/running) and insulin sensitivity. It falls in line with his "move around at a slow pace" PB law. DFH, you're correct, it's not all that matters, but as far as weight loss is concerned it comes down to calories burnt vs calories consumed. Slathering everything with butter and cream does does no favors when it comes to weight loss. Calories ultimately reign supreme. Jimmy doesn't seem to accept this.

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:34 PM

I don't agree you're "reprogramming your genes", I think that's marketing. By increasing your fat intake you're going to naturally promote satiety and eat less calories overall, prompting weight-loss. FWIW, I still eat a low carb PHD-style diet (as compared to SAD) although I'm a bit higher on protein and carbs due to my activity level (my macros are typically (50/25/25).

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 04, 2012
at 03:12 PM

Mark Sisson was an endurance athlete and I think that gives him a really warped view of the average Joe. The whole thing about paleo is to be active. For some that means getting to a gym and hopping on a treadmill for 45 min to an hour. It's that or nothing for a lot of people with desk jobs and long commutes. I live in a safe neighborhood and still you won't catch me out walking by myself after dark here. And in the winter, you won't catch me walking outside much period.

22424c9eef944ade83d4e4ffda907056

(1402)

on March 04, 2012
at 06:51 PM

There's definitely some truth that reducing carbs makes it easier to lose weight, that much is true. However, just because that's true doesn't mean that whatever reason you apply to it has to be true. You don't have to be ketogenic to benefit from reducing your carb intake. Stop thinking that just because you believe something that it has to be true. It's okay to prove something wrong, but it's downright stupid to insist that what you believe is true and that anything else must be wrong.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 04, 2012
at 03:18 PM

BTW Beth, back in 2005 when Jimmy was maintaining, he used to brag that he could eat 100g carbs per day. I really thought he'd go more higher carb at one point b/c even Atkins doesn't say stay low carb forever. This ketogenic level carbs for all eternity thing is rather new. There are a lot of gems in Jimmy's old blog posts.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:56 PM

I never liked that wording either, but to the point, you are basically saying Sisson and much of Paleo is flat false, true? I took it as a given that Paleo for weight loss takes the basic fact into account that if you become keto adapted by reducing carbs, you have an advantage when it comes to weight reduction. Restricting carbs if you are keto adapted means burning stored fat. Try that if you ate not keto adapted and see what happens. It's not a myth.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:09 PM

Corellation doesn't equal causation? Yeah, I think most people have figured that out. I posted a question about that 2 days ago, same thing. We ALL do it.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:24 PM

Good revision. I still don't get why you think sugar burner/ fat burner is nonsense. I listened to Jimmy's interview with Sisson and that's a cornerstone of Sisson's Primal Blueprint. Look at the cover again. It say "Reprogram you genes for effortless weight loss..." are you saying Sisson is wrong and he should just say calories in, calories out?

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:59 PM

DFH, you're correct, it's not all that matters, but as far as weight loss is concerned it comes down to calories burnt vs calories consumed. Slathering everything with butter and cream does does no favors when it comes to weight loss. Calories ultimately reign supreme. Jimmy doesn't seem to accept this.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 04, 2012
at 03:06 PM

BTW, here's Mark Sisson on chronic cardio: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/chronic-cardio/#axzz1oA1e5gUy He's not really advocating 30-60 minutes on the treadmill, regardless of heart rate.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 04, 2012
at 03:01 PM

What's really curious is that LCers have hitched their wagons to pushing ketosis level of carbs. Those of us doing 100g of carbs a day are really on a low-carb diet compared to SAD (in fact, Paul Jaminet considers PHD a low-carb diet). Jimmy could continue to be a low-carb guru if he embraced this wider range of LC. But the whole "safe starches" debate seems to make this doubtful.

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:59 PM

Beth, I should've been more clear, I was referring to low intensity work on the treadmill, like walking at a brisk pace, which improves fatty acid oxidation (not jogging/running) and insulin sensitivity. It falls in line with his "move around at a slow pace" PB law.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:51 PM

4.....a lot. Grab a metbolism text and take a look some time.

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:12 PM

DFH, you're correct, it's not all that matters (I edited the post to try to refine my thought), but as far as weight loss is concerned it comes down to calories burnt vs calories consumed. Slathering everything with butter and cream does does no favors when it comes to weight loss. Calories ultimately reign supreme. Jimmy doesn't seem to accept this

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:58 PM

Beth, I should've been more clear, I was referring to low intensity work on the treadmill, like walking at a brisk pace, which improves fatty acid oxidation (not jogging/running) and insulin sensitivity. It falls in line with his "move around at a slow pace" PB law. DFH, you're correct, it's not all that matters, but as far as weight loss is concerned it comes down to calories burnt vs calories consumed. Slathering everything with butter and cream does does no favors when it comes to weight loss. Calories ultimately reign supreme. Jimmy doesn't seem to accept this

13
Dc6407193ba441d1438f6f0c06af872b

on March 04, 2012
at 06:24 PM

People are harshing on Jimmy. He's not perfect; who is?

  1. He may be a Creationist, but his interview with Mark Sisson a few years ago introduced me to Paleo, and he's an avid enthusiast of Paleo. Also, he doesn't hide his religion, without telling me to believe what to believe. Full disclosure is good. This atheist and evolution enthusiast owes his discovery of evolutionary-based eating to that Creationist.

  2. His weight is up. We know this because he tells us. Again he's up front about his struggles.

  3. He's not a scientist. He doesn't hide it. So what? Those of us who want to listen to Robb Wolf do.

  4. He's probably not trying everything he could do to lose weight. Is low carb useful for some people because if food reward? Because it's helpful in restricting calories? Because there's a metabolic advantage? We'll debate that and science will clarify it. A sensible approach for Jimmy might be calorie counting, which he is inclined not to do, but calorie counting with high quality food might work for him. He obviously has larger struggles than some of us, and while most paleo people don't need to count calories, he may need to. He may be stuck in a dogma that doesn't allow him to "believe in" calorie counting. Maybe he does need to add in a bit of carb. I don't think we know. I do thing he's stuck in a paradigm that isn't quite working for him, and it'd be scary to backtrack a but and try a few other paths. That doesn't make him foolish or evil or anything. It makes him probably a bit like the rest of us.

11
1a641bbff1a7b0a70f08410376bbdf6b

(1587)

on March 04, 2012
at 01:25 PM

I have to admit that I'm at a point now where it's hard for me to listen to Jimmy, so obviously I was "a bit biased". Being a regular reader of Evelyn's carbsane blog, to me, Jimmy just confirmed what Evelyn (and Dr. Harris too) writes about all the time. He's completely caught in his "low-carb is the only way for me" dogma, despite being quite obese. He has convinced himself that he is super healthy and now tells everybody that weightloss is not his primary goal anymore.

I also have a problem that he constantly displays himself as THE LC success story, he is still fat and regained quite a bit.

More over, at one point he said at his biggest weight he ate whatever he wanted, and afterwards he blamed conventional wisdom dietary recommendations. I don't think downing massive amounts of soda and junk food is following the original low fat/high grain food pyramid.

I don't like that he tries to tie low carb to paleo just because paleo is for most lowER carb than SAD (I don't think most folks will unknowingly be VLC unless they make a conscious effort, couple of pieces of fruit, carrots, some nuts and you're easily over 50g)

Finally, I'm not a fan of his pseudo paleo food creations ala "it's paleo aka LC, I can eat how much I want and still be super healthy"

I just don't buy his nice and open minded guy thingy anymore ;)

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 05, 2012
at 01:43 PM

You might want to look up "ad hominems" and avoid websites that can't stop using them, and avoid them yourself! :)

1a641bbff1a7b0a70f08410376bbdf6b

(1587)

on March 05, 2012
at 02:34 PM

OR I just keep on expressing my honest opinion :) and thx for the suggestion, fortunately I haven't forgotten all of the Latin I had to learn in school :)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 29, 2012
at 05:31 AM

This isn't an ad Hominem attack. It's a critique of a person and their motivations. For this to be an A.H.A he'd have to be saying that X is untrue because Jimmy Moore is Y. Without the second part it's just a character critique, which might or might not be the nicest thing.

10
B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 04, 2012
at 02:35 PM

ChenZhen is very right : he's a low carb freak. Like so many others, he's blinded by his success, and will not change his ideas easily. On the other hand, is the fact that he's low-carb really the issue here? If I'm not mistaking he tried eating potatoes but it didn't work out.

I think he's a great guy. He doesn't really know the science, but he obviously doesn't care much about it, and I don't blame him for that. Different people, different interests.

I don't like the attitude of people recently : yeah, the guy is still not lean, but he's far from what he used to be, his mood is obviously great and he looks good apart from being a bit fat. Like he said,

You know, this is one of the things that discourages me the most in the community of health, "You don't look the way we think you should look (...) so something you are doing must be wrong". Well not necessarily, there's so much to being fat.

He's an adorable guy, and will always be. Sometimes I just wonder to myself : is the guy really eating as nutritious as he thinks he is? I mean, eating grass-fed steak and a bit of salad each day is great, but even when I eat more than 2 pounds of leafy greens per day with grass-fed meat, I still don't get enough of certain minerals. I doubt he's eating any liver. He probably eats copious amounts of butter too. He may eat bone broth, I don't know. But I know one thing for sure : if I eat liver, I'm not hungry for 24 hours, if I eat ghee, I'm very hungry and could easily eat 1lbs of it. Still, like Sean says :

I love how you're an open book, you're not afraid to share personal things, ...

And his podcast is awesome.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 04, 2012
at 02:44 PM

He tried eating potatoes on top of his already hypercaloric diet in the form of sweet potato fries that he probably drowned in more butter. In candid shots he doesn't look all that healthy to me. He looks like he's aged way more than 8 years.

F1b39d4f620876330312f4925bd51900

(4090)

on March 05, 2012
at 06:17 PM

I am right there with you Korion. That is damn funny! If I manage to choke down some liver, I am averse to food for quite a while. especially meat like beef.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 04, 2012
at 03:06 PM

I should maybe add that, when I eat liver, I'm so grossed out by it that that may be the reason I'm not hungry for a while.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 04, 2012
at 02:58 PM

I think LCers don't give starches a fair shot. Just like you have low-carb flu when eliminating carbs, there is a transition period required to upregulate required enzymes and make previously insulin resistant cells more sensitive (Paul Jaminet has pointed out the latter). Folks like [email protected] have recommended the 150g of carbs for 3 days before doing an OGTT. I think the same would be prudent before you determine that your metabolism can't handle the carbs.

8
Bdf98e5a57befa6f0877f978ba09871c

on March 04, 2012
at 04:43 PM

Alright, so I've read people's answers here. And I agree that he has a number of things I question. But he makes a key point that a lot of people I think have overlooked:

We live in an instant-gratification culture. Part of being healthy is taking back the time we spend, and putting it to other things.

I think he's right on that. It's a lot easier to keep on the bandwagon when I get off my ass to cook.

I also think that strength training is a good point. I'm still trying to figure out my exercise balance. Personally, I think I need to have more strength training, at least to feel like I'm making progress visibly.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:21 PM

You make a good point here. I feel like Paleo, especially from the CrossFit camp, makes little acknowledgement that this can be HARD for some people. Culture is a very real force to be reckoned with.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:51 PM

Wow! An actual response to what he said instead of attacks on his character or marketing! AMAZING!

7
85f91220dc9fe7486eec8c4305139c7e

(383)

on March 05, 2012
at 01:28 AM

I think there is a difference between someone who has been morbidly obese and someone who has only needed to lose 20-30 pounds. If you've been very overweight, especially for a long time, it's going to take a long time to fix it, and maybe you will never get you back to "normal".

I think there is room in the Paleo movement for Inuits and Kitavans. There is no one-size-fits-all for diet and health.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 05, 2012
at 01:54 AM

Very nice philosophy, Beth!

5
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 04, 2012
at 06:27 PM

If I were morbidly obese, and if I had never heard of Jimmy Moore, hearing today's presentation would give me some much-needed hope and perhaps some willingness to give "low carb paleo" a try.

Of course, I HAVE heard of him because PH and Carb Sane Asylum are my 2 most-visited sites with Melissa right behind. :-))

Since I've been sensitized by Evelyn, Melissa and Dr Harris in particular one statement echoed throughout my empty head this morning while everything else faded away--"stick with (that one plan) for the rest of your life."

That's a sad quote because, as Dr Harris indicated this week, Jimmy is indeed clinging to that one low-carb concept for dear life.

I started out at the lower edge of what we'd call morbidly obese and I'm currently just about to move officially from obese to overweight (scoff if you will but that's a big deal for me.) I even started out on LC for about 3 weeks, but since then my mix of foods has changed significantly about every 3-4 weeks. If I am to endorse Jimmy's quote above, then I have to say my "one plan" is to rotate my foods significantly and use varying degrees of fasting. :-))

Right now, what was starting to feel like a plateau (not to mention excessive external stress) has been shattered by a WIDE range of cycles. Three days of the week are 0-300 calories, 4 days are moderate carb (would be VLC for SAD) and about every 2 weeks I relish a high-calorie feast. I'm fascinated to report that while I've been losing fat steadily, the most noticeable improvement in my skin, gums and gut appeared after the FEAST. I'm not qualified to pose a hypothesis but my ignorant guess is that the fasting set the stage for some very healthy responses to the nutrients in my feast. And I am pretty sure none of these improvements in my status would have occurred from following any of these strategies alone--it took cycles of all 3.

I have no personal dislike of Jimmy. If he coaxes some morbidly obese people to try either low-carb or paleo as strategies to begin a road toward weight loss and/or improved health he will have done very worthwhile and important work. Those who get past losing the first large amount of fat, though, will be those who instinctively reject his "stick exactly to that plan" paradigm. I don't think you can make it all the way to normal weight/metabolism with such a narrow focus.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:20 PM

Nance, good for you. Experimentation is working better than you will find on a blog it seems, no? The "one way" is my problem with low carb too. It's like a "single problem/single fix" approach, kinda like calories in/out. At least it works better than counting calories on packages of twinkies. One serious problem LC has is that people practice it without understanding it. They think ketosis is when you are burning fat, but it's really when you are peeing it. Paleo has issues too. I see people offering backwards advice a lot.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 04, 2012
at 08:59 PM

I respect your reaction, DFH, but I definitely qualified as an "obese hormone wreck due to SAD" last April. And it has worked beautifully for me although I needed gradual, 1-3 month stages of progressively more natural behaviors.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 04, 2012
at 11:55 PM

Me too Nance, me too!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:41 PM

Right now, yes, my experimentation is bearing more fruit than any particular article or blog. The point that there's no one "right way" doesn't seem to translate into cycling patterns as much as you might expect. People try a little IF and either establish a pattern or say it didn't work. They try low/high carb and do the same. If you really think about ancient people, the duh! is that everything was in cycles because they didn't have the lifestyle/resources in most cases to level everything to one "right way."

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 08:45 PM

One right way depends on why they are here. I buy the ancient people were adapted for IF thing, but I don't buy it for obese hormone wrecks due to SAD that nature has no experience with! Paleo has some tools like that but they still need to be understood and used correctly.

4
24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 04, 2012
at 02:40 PM

That's about 19 minutes of my life I'll never get back ;-) But I took one for the team.

I'm surprised Jimmy is so up on resistance training. After all, it was back in late 2007 that all of his problems with regain began as he gained 35 lbs in like 6 weeks or something like that.

These days Jimmy serves as an example of what not to do. Low carb is clearly not working for him anymore. Indeed if he hadn't embarked on his various crash diets along the way, he'd be in the mid-300's by now at least.

In light of Chris Kresser's presentation, it's also about time these "healthy" low carbers stop crowing over their stellar lipid profiles. Here's his most recent shared results: http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/printthread.php?tid=3952 (FWIW,, I'm Low Carb Cheater on that thread)

Total Cholesterol 351 LDL-C 278 HDL-C 57 Triglycerides 79 LDL Particle Number 2130 Small LDL-P 535 LDL Part. Size 22.0 Large HDL-P 10.9 Large VLDL-P 0.4

That's LDL/HDL ratio of almost 5. And this was 2009 when Jimmy dipped back into the 230's and was likely in the 260's at the time of the test.

That Dr. Westman has no problem with this makes me thankful I don't have a low carb doctor. I'd rather deal with the docs I've had over the years who have expressed concern over my slightly high (always in normal range) cholesterol than someone who dismisses it entirely.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 04, 2012
at 02:55 PM

The recent discussions Chris Kresser and Chris Masterjohn have been having about the reliability (or not) of the LDL particle tests certainly gives me pause! Jimmy is also regularly mentioning his zero-level calcium score, but I know Kurt Harris has commented that he's not surprised given Jimmy's age.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 04, 2012
at 02:49 PM

*"If your Purity pizza is any indication, you eat a LOT -- In your video it looks like you put 3-4Tbs of butter on that!!!! That's 300-400 calories before anything else is added. I don't know where this "add fat to anything because low fat is evil" notion came from, but it is crazy to add tablespoons of butter to the bread used for a pizza because the bread is low fat."* hahahaha man that guy is a butter-freak.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 04, 2012
at 03:14 PM

Yep, and if memory serves that score was taken when he was close to his "goal weight", perhaps even 220.

3
A65499f2f8c65602881550fe309cd48c

(3501)

on March 04, 2012
at 06:48 PM

Cortisol. Stop worrying about everyone else and do what works for you and if YOU feel someone is WRONG, remember they probably think the same of you. There is no one right way to eat your food. It's ok to disagree (and yes, I disagree as well with said person of interest) but its all good. Some people probably need VLC to maintain health, but even if it's "wrong" it's probably better than the SAD diet they've been following. Just my humble opinion.

3
464e1c66609d402615ae2b3cf72d53fb

(1472)

on March 04, 2012
at 03:39 PM

I had an interesting email exchange with Jimmy. He's nuts. He doesn't believe in Paleo man. He thinks the earth was created 6000 years ago. Again, Jimmy Moore is nuts.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 03:48 PM

Wait, the 6,000 year old Earth thing is BS now? :)

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:19 PM

@Melissa, please forgive me in advance, because I respect your take on many things, but... Who died and made you Paleo sheriff? Don't we all have to leave the door open to the possibility that we're all wrong about something?

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:43 PM

@Melissa, we don't get to choose who curates it. I get your frustrations and I share many of them. But nobody owns it. I'm trying to approach it as a big boat, not a small boat (to borrow a Buddhist idea).

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 04:37 PM

Yes, but if they try to curate the paleo movement even if they don't believe in the paleolithic, it makes them look disingenuous.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:07 PM

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

627cf3f5d1ddfb4c2f4c96169420f55f

(1621)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:35 PM

I believe in evolution 100% but if someone believes in creationism then I'll leave it at that. I'm not going to force anyone to change their religious beliefs. If that person wants to talk about it sure. Otherwise, I'll leave them alone.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 05:17 PM

Kurt and i are both outsiders and have nothing to profit from (unlike Jimmy)- idiocy just is infuriating to us.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:54 PM

I think that it is funny though that Taubes #1 supporter on the internet is a Young Earth Creationist that doesn’t believe in science except when it validates his prior beliefs. It is also funny that such a person un-persuadable by science takes it upon themselves to arbitrate “debates” of scientific issues like safe starches. More like Young Earth Creationism – picking and choosing the nonsense that makes you feel better about your own beliefs.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 05:02 PM

Karen, we can and i will call out people who purposefully misdirect debates for their own ends.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 06:32 PM

What, I'm not the paleo sheriff, I just like point out idiocy. It is my hobby. As I said, Kurt and I have no stake in this movement anymore. Calling me a paleo sheriff is hilarious. I'm only borderline "paleo" anyway.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:42 PM

I'm not debating whether or not he is nuts, but I don't think it's required to "believe" in evolution to follow a Paleo template. (For the record, I do "believe" in evolution.) I'm not into attacking folks for their beliefs, and it slams the door in the face of far too many people when the nutritional stakes are very high. You don't have to believe in evolution to see that the 20th century was a complete left turn in terms of diet.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 04, 2012
at 05:04 PM

Paleo is not a brand. There is nothing to protect. It's like you can't own or be the curator of "fast" or "new." :)

35a8b223ae5d863f17a8c9e3a8eed5eb

(571)

on March 04, 2012
at 04:09 PM

adam and eva ate tons of fruit

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on March 04, 2012
at 06:18 PM

@Karen, the apocryphal ideal scientist lives to see the day when he/she is approached by someone else who says, "i've proven you wrong and here's my raw data." That's a mindset that not everyone can share because they like the warm sensations that the confirmation bias blanket provides--not saying this in accusation but it's a human tendency and everyone likes the warmth to a certain degree.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on March 04, 2012
at 06:55 PM

Who made Denise Minger the science sheriff? Who does she think she is making fun of a nice old man? There are an ever growing number of paleo critics, but there really aren’t any sheriffs in paleo because paleo has pretty much become a joke with people like Kruse and Young Earth Creationists. Next there will be homeopaths and aura readers at AHS. Maybe they can help paddle the big boat.

2
0fb8b3d6dcfb279b0f7e050d2d22510f

(4645)

on March 04, 2012
at 09:26 PM

Paleo IS Low Carb, but it is alway fest and famine. I eat less in the winter than the summer. The body has one main objective, it is not to be lean or fat, it is to survive, to keep on keeping on. If you feed it Low Carbs it will set the Low carb as the high point. I fine for me and I tell people to see if it works with them to never let your body figure out your hunt and gather menu. Im not a fan of Jimmy Moore but he does the Low Carb community a world of good with his blog, but he needs to get off of all the package food and snack bars, he needs to have some productive cheat days followed by famine at some point. He may even then need to go hard core for a year so he can re-introduce some better carbs into his diet and he needs to be very serious about strength training- its a great place for carbs to gather. He needs to get off the scale and away from test numbers and use the mirror as his guide. Paleo IS Low Carb because we eat nature whole food with lots of fat and protein that replace a lot of carbs I'm not keen on Jimmy Moore but I listen to his podcasts and enjoy them but if I was his friend- I'd tell him the above.

and to all those folks who suddenly see paelo as NOT low carb, one day you will look in the mirror and say, shhheeet, I guess I overdid the tubers and such. Carbs increases your carba'tite with little warning.

0fb8b3d6dcfb279b0f7e050d2d22510f

(4645)

on March 05, 2012
at 03:48 AM

and go with your dogma? dont be an asshole. I know what works foir me and if I can't express that then take your dogma and shove it

D12142c8cafb16d9af10b3362cb8fb62

(1590)

on March 04, 2012
at 09:40 PM

Paleo isn't low carb. Take your dogma back to the Church of Taubes.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 04, 2012
at 09:54 PM

this has been discussed here http://paleohacks.com/questions/53304/paleo-isnt-low-carb-anymore-but-it-kind-of-was

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 28, 2012
at 02:49 AM

Old thread, I know, but I found some interesting - and apropos - comments by Dr. Kurt Harris (who some around here may know) on CarbSane's blog:

"The quickest way for ancestral health bloggers and luminaries to stop Jimmmy from coopting paleo and ancestral health and making them mere satellites of his commercial Low carb empire is to boycott his show and stop cooperating with those stupid data dumps.

Then it will be obvious that Jimmy has an agenda that has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with ancestral health or honest science inquiry and his effort to ruin the good parts of a legitimate ancestral health movement will fail."

Amen.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 28, 2012
at 03:16 AM

Sorry, but that's just sounding supremely paranoid. I'm sure Jimmy is sitting in a throne somewhere, stroking a cat in his lap and laughing, "Bwa ha ha ha! Now I've got those Paleos right where I want them!" Whatever. Disagree with Jimmy's methodology all you want, but he's giving legit Paleo folks a platform and the world needs that message. I wish Kurt would return to actually having a message of his own instead of blasting everyone else for their erroneous messages.

1
6498694060d879a7960b35913539b75f

(1307)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:26 PM

These Paleo Summit Hack-a-Thon threads seem to be a thinly-disguised excuse to bash people. I'm looking forward to Paleohacks getting back to business as usual.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:45 PM

I don't think that was Beth's intent at all. Some comments seem a little harsh to me but I think Beth was serving our PH community by providing a central format for discussion rather than 75 new splintered questions. My hat goes off to her! I hope we all learned a little in the past week.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on March 04, 2012
at 07:36 PM

Sadly, you may have along wait.

Fb67dc30cead043d1d13ea503a3044dc

(3280)

on March 04, 2012
at 07:42 PM

Im with you, PaleoDel. :/

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 28, 2012
at 11:03 PM

Censorship lives at Paleohacks!

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 28, 2012
at 07:07 AM

And my post was deleted WHY? Was there anything factually inaccurate about it? Or is paleohacks entirely controlled by the Livin' La Vida Low Cred lobby?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 28, 2012
at 01:20 PM

No more irrelevant than 99% of the answers here. I suspect Melissa would rather Kurt's provocative comment not gain traction/get exposure. That, or it's just censorship as one might expect over at LLVLC. I for one think Dr. Harris is correct. And for those defenders of Jimmy, explain to me how having a 300 lb. representative of 'low carb paleo' helps the ancestral health movement.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 28, 2012
at 11:53 AM

I didn't delete it, but since I can view the deleted answer, I suspect it is because it is irrelevant to the actual question about Jimmy Moore at the Paleo Summit.

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