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High Fat, Low Carb, Protein?

Commented on February 04, 2014
Created January 24, 2014 at 5:34 PM

I'm very sensitive to carbs so I started eating low carb, high fat, and moderate-high protein about a year ago and day by day I've been looking worse & worse, it's literally like I've sped up the aging process. As my carb issues feel under control and I feel ok i was surprised to look so crappy eating like this.

Having just read a Ron Rosedale article* i'm definitely going to lower my protein, i'm so glad to have found this info as I knew something was terribly wrong with how i was eating, I was even considering going vegan for a while to see if it helped!

I'm just wondering how to keep my fat intake so high & protein lower at the same time? Some meal examples?

I can't eat too much straight fat as surely it'll go right through me? So i'm thinking loads of leafy greens both raw & cooked in lots of fat, lovely, but I can't think of many other ways to stay lower on protein & higher on fat?

I know this question has probably been raised before but i'm sure we can get some more original answers?

Many thanks

*

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2010/05/07/ron-rosedale-protein-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on February 04, 2014
at 04:50 PM

Hence many anti-cancer therapies aim to inhibit mTORC1 by acting upon some of these metabolic pathways. In many cases, exercise and diet has been shown to also help outcomes, this becomes evident once we see that cellular-stress-inducing exercise, fasting or low glucose intake, and reduced protein intakes all affect the mTORC1 pathway just as well as some medicines like metformin, rapamycin or even certain chemotherapy drugs.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on February 04, 2014
at 04:46 PM

Stimulation of mTORC1 as you can see in the diagram's outputs stimulate cell growth, prevent apoptosis, stimulate cellular proliferation, promote lipid synthesis (fat creation), ribosome creation (for increased protein synthesis), promote mRNA splicing and transcription, adipogenesis (fat creation), inhibits lipid metabolism (inhibits fat burning), promotes angiogenesis (vascular tissue growth). All of these conditions are ideal stimulants for carcinogenesis and aging.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on February 04, 2014
at 04:39 PM

The effects of these inputs on mTORC1 are as follows: Growth factors stimulates mTORC1, cellular stress and hypoxia (lack of oxygen usually due to exercise) inhibit it, high AMP:ATP ratio (fasting or exercising, energy input < energy output) inhibit it, metformin (diabetes medication) inhibits it and prevent diabetes symptoms, and amino acids stimulate it.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on February 04, 2014
at 04:34 PM

Ok simple, pay attention to mTORC 1 and notice what the inputs are, what activates/deactivates it and what its outputs are. The inputs in this diagram are as follows: growth factors and hormones (insulin, insulin-like growth factors, endothelial/nerve/fibroblast growth factors, etc.) followed by cellular stress and hypoxia (usually exercise induced), followed by AMP:ATP ratio (a measure of energy output to energy input - high when fasting or exercising strenuously), another input is metformin (a common drug to treat diabetes), and finally amino acids.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on February 04, 2014
at 04:30 PM

I agree fat is best with food, but i'm not so sure about it not being natural straight up, lazy yes but not unnatural. Due to the lack of micronutes it's probably best not to have too much pure fat, but a fine olive or avocado oil swished around the palate isn't to be sniffed at.

Medium avatar

(624)

on February 04, 2014
at 04:12 PM

I can't imagine that feeling "perfectly natural" because it's just not. I can take a lot of oil, but i don't like it without a filler. For instance a half a potato with an ouce or more of butter, some salt and pepper, that's nice.

An ounce or two of garlic/onions fried up in an ounce or two of olive oil really goes great just by itself. Even better on top of 3 ounces of fatty ground beef fried in an ounce of tallow.

Also: I snack daily on macadamia nuts and pretty often on 85%+ dark chocolate.

With all those, I think straight up fat is just plain old lazy.

Medium avatar

(624)

on February 04, 2014
at 04:09 PM

I get that, it's all the acronyms that become overwhelming. I don't know most of those (any more that is). I guess what would be cool is if you could post that along with a brief explanation of the important parts so we know what to pay attention to among the 50 or so arrows/T's and 50 or so acronyms. I find it really interesting and deeply desire understanding. Reminds me how badly I want to go take some biochemistry/biotech coursework.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on February 01, 2014
at 01:54 PM

I no longer fear fat straight up, it is delicious and feels perfectly natural to have a swig of pure oil

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on February 01, 2014
at 01:03 AM

I essentially agree with what you have said. It is unfortunate that these things are built in such a complex way. However when you think about all the different variables that the body must control, one begins to understand how difficult it is for the body to achieve homeostasis without employing such a vast array of sensory mechanisms and negative feedback systems required to keep said parameters within their respective ranges. By the way, the diagram is simple to understand, arrows ---> mean activation, while Ts ---| mean inhibition.

Medium avatar

(624)

on January 31, 2014
at 11:05 PM

So this leaves me with a better understanding and yet much MUCH more confusion than when I followed a relatively primal version of CW including whole foods, whole dairy, whole grain, etc... it seemed so easy. So now I'm desperately following this thread trying to glean a better understanding from brains like that of @TheGastronomer. Just keep in mind guys, even nerdy science types can't always understand a cellular protein reaction diagram thingy....

Medium avatar

(624)

on January 31, 2014
at 11:04 PM

of some things and too little of others, and when limiting protein end up rarely eating regular muscle meat, usually opting for bony/fatty stewed meats and liver. So, without an adequate background in biochemistry but a pretty good understanding overall, my own response has been high fat, moderate carb, low protein. Protein seems like the most necesary in moderation and the most harmful in excess. Carbs are NOT required, but make most of us "feel" better, and make it easier to get all your micronutrients. Fat is benign but tough to digest without fillers.

Medium avatar

(624)

on January 31, 2014
at 10:59 PM

But the epidemiological studies seem to throw you all over the place... Then we have the whole fat/carb thing. All these years we've been told to avoid fats. We come to Paleo and limit carbs, up fats, and end up with too much protein. Then those most enthusiastic about long term health usually wind up on the low carb low protein track, which ultimately makes it hard to get all you micronutrients without supplementation or excessive consumption of fibrous veggies. I avoid too much fibrous veggies. You could turn to lots of offal and organ meats but then end up with too much of some

Medium avatar

(624)

on January 31, 2014
at 10:56 PM

This is where it gets so confusing. Even a biochemistry degree won't get you to the right answer but a relatively literate, intelligent "layman" trying to sift through the recommendations comes up, as usual, with lots of conflicting suggestions. My intuition, feeding off of what I manage to understand about all this, tells me that it makes perfect sense to limit protein to just what the body needs, and maybe just a tad beyond that like how we treat most micronutrients. When you think about it, most individual amino acids may as well be considered micronutrients.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on January 31, 2014
at 10:34 PM

Ok, I'll bite. I did a lit search and found nothing to support your claim except two (not peer reviewed) articles that showed the effect of high protein diets on herbivores (one on rabbits, one on cows. In both cases the animals were on a 80-90% protein diet. That's a far cry from 25%-40%. Also they were herbivores and as such do not equate to humans.

What other research is out there? I ran the nurses study and it looks like higher protein equates to longer life span with no change in the cancer rate. (But we all know the problems with the nurse study)

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 31, 2014
at 06:55 PM

Honestly I don't know. But what I personally do is eat my daily protein in either one or two sittings per day. I usually skip breakfast 90% of the time (or eat something small, like a lemon) and for lunch go light on the protein, or not at all if I'm fasting. Then for dinner I go big and eat most of my protein. If I fasted earlier that day, I usually eat it all in one go.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 31, 2014
at 06:51 PM

Well, it is 55% linoleic acid (omega 6 PUFA) see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp_oil, this is comparable to corn oil which also has about 55% PUFA see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_oil#Constituents_and_comparison. So my best advice would be to stay away, it doesn't sound too good. I know I wouldn't consume that much omega 6. I'd rather use expeller pressed high-oleic safflower oil, it has basically the same fatty acid profile as olive since it is high-oleic.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 31, 2014
at 05:03 PM

I've since tried a bit more and it was very very nice

Do think that hemp oil is too high in omega 6 to consider?

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 31, 2014
at 03:45 PM

I am happy to inform you that, you sir, have acquired a perfectly good bottle of olive oil. The real stuff (extra virgin) is supposed to be strong, grassy, bold and somewhat spicy in a peppery sort of way, not bland like most other oils. This is the telltale sign that you have gotten yourself the good stuff and not some cheap imitation oil blended with refined olive oil or worse, soybean or canola oil. Good to hear the bottle is dark, this means the seller cares about the quality of the product by keeping it from going rancid using a dark bottle.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 31, 2014
at 03:31 PM

It was very grassy & very spicy, the sell by date is next year, its in a dark glass bottle... ill give it another go on some salad. I also have a sore throat right now so may have exacerbated it

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 31, 2014
at 03:23 PM

Actually, good olive oil is supposed to be grassy, peppery and bitter. If you drink it alone, like from a teaspoon, it should give you a spicy feeling in the throat, kind of like hot sauce but limited only to the throat for some reason. Good olive oils are usually green or a greenish yellow color. Check the best by date on the bottle, if you passed it or are really close to it it might be rancid, also it is more likely to go rancid if it is in a clear bottle or if it is in a place with a lot of warmth or light. However, don't confuse a good, strong and bitter olive oil with a rancid one.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 31, 2014
at 03:04 PM

Avocado oil is nectar! I bought some olive oil aswell but i think it's rancid, as soon as it touched my tongue it was very acidic/bitter, but avocado oil, my god! I can see the money i saved on meat going elsewhere, i would go as far to say i have found a true rival for butter ! combined with egg yolks whipped into mayo it must be pretty amazing. I haven't seen any Kerrygold herb around London yet unfortunately

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 31, 2014
at 02:59 PM

avocado oil is nectar, i bought some olive oil but i think its rancid as it was like acid, horrible, but avocado oil, my god! i can see the money i saved on meat going on this stuff, i would go as far to say i have found a true rival for butter ! combined with egg yolks it must be pretty amazing

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 29, 2014
at 06:59 PM

So while eating protein is absolutely necessary to life, care must be taken not to consume in excess as too much of a good thing can be bad; and in this case the bad would include rapid aging by increased cellular growth and proliferation (errors introduced in this process lead to cellular damage), fat gain by stimulating lipid synthesis, and cancer by preventing damaged cells from dying naturally (cells die naturally through autophagy) while encouraging rapid proliferation and generating new blood vessels to feed these metabolically damaged tissues further, promoting indefinite growth.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 29, 2014
at 06:49 PM

Paleo as i know it is about eating natural foods we evolved eating, what ratio we eat them in is up to each of us. Some may do well on a high protein paleo diet but i certainly didn't, since cutting back on protein i've noticed improvements within the space of a few days (better skin, looking less tired & fat loss)

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 29, 2014
at 06:46 PM

This diagram is a great representation of the effect of protein on a very important cellular pathway mTORC1: http://www.cellsignal.com/pathways/translational-control.jsp?pathway=trans-mtor. This pathway is responsible for many tasks including cell growth and proliferation, lipid synthesis and adipogenesis (fat creation), preventing autophagy, and angiogenesis (growth of blood vessels). mTOR, which is activated by amino acids and growth hormones (most importantly IGF-1 which increases with high protein diets), increases all of these processes, promoting aging, carcinogenesis and adiposity.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 29, 2014
at 06:40 PM

High protein intake can be considered paleo, and initially protein consumption was encouraged on the paleo diet. Protein however, is not they best source of fuel for health reasons. It should be treated rather as building material to repair or grow tissues and create enzymes and proteins needed for life as amino acids are absolutely essential. If the supply of protein is limited, the body will prioritize it for these important needs, however, if consumed in excess it can have detrimental effects on our bodies.

7449baa29fffcd69fee853b523c965b9

(0)

on January 29, 2014
at 06:09 PM

I thought eating high protein was part of what Paleo was all about. Why is this bad?

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 28, 2014
at 05:54 PM

I shall start to do so, i'm not sure how much vit C i'd get from all my veggies being smothered in fat as it's water soluble, I have a friend who keeps telling me to take vit C, I give up! ;)

Cce653018976b0b26924c59aa94e5579

(15)

on January 28, 2014
at 05:49 PM

You might consider supplementing 3-4g vitamin C for awhile, too, since VLC eating can be quite deficient in it, and it is difficult to oversupplement.

Medium avatar

(58)

on January 28, 2014
at 05:06 PM

ditto, i wish i was rich enough to use avocado oil, but extra light TASTING olive oil works for me.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 28, 2014
at 02:02 PM

I'm with you when it comes to eating pure butter (specially the salted one, it's more savory). You should try Kerrygold's Garlic & Herb butter, its awesome for eating by itself. Careful when you make mayo with olive oil, the extra virgin stuff turns bitter for some reason and is highly unpalatable. Mild, buttery flavored olive oils are preferable to strong, grassy, or peppery flavored ones when making mayonnaise, avocado oil is ideal but I think it's a tad pricier.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 28, 2014
at 12:37 PM

Do you think there's an optimal timing/amount of protein intake? Some suggest no more than 25g in a sitting so you don't turn any excess to glucose, some say no less than 30g in a sitting to help with muscle sparing.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 28, 2014
at 12:30 PM

Looking forward to picking up some olive/avocado oil & making some mayo, I guess animal fats don't do too well due to solidifying. I'm also very keen on eating pure butter right now, the more i eat the more I crave it

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 28, 2014
at 01:28 AM

glycation necessitates a source of sugar, and physical contact. So there more sugar, the higher the odds that a specific bit of protein will get glycated. Even at very low levels, some glycation could happen somewhere. But we do have repair mechanisms, so your question translates really to how quickly can I repair the damage from X grams/day of carbs per day? Sorry, I don't know the number, and it probably varies by age/metabolic condition/health. I would say autophagy should help with this to some degree.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 27, 2014
at 09:53 PM

Mayonnaise (with paleo oils/fats) really is a life saver, specially when you consider all the culinary possibilities it opens up. Egg salad, tartar sauce, paleo ranch dressing, aioli, tuna salad, cole slaw, and all kinds of dips (like spicy mayo, curry mayo, and lemon pepper mayo, yumm). It makes just about any veggie or fish, interesting. It's awesome.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 27, 2014
at 09:10 PM

Smoke point is completely irrelevant. Fats do not have to reach their smoke point to become oxidized, this is basic chemistry. Didn't you know that chemical reactions can take place in a liquid medium? Or do you think chemical reactions can only take place while substances are in a gaseous state? Extra virgin olive oil has a lower smoke point because the plant residue in it, left from the pressing process, begins to smoke, not because the fats oxidize faster.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on January 27, 2014
at 04:13 PM

...raises their blood sugar above the 140 mark when eating carbs.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on January 27, 2014
at 04:12 PM

Do carbs, however, only cause glycation if blood sugars get high? If I were to eat 400 grams of carbs a day, buty blood sugar never goes over 140, wouldn't it be less damaging then someone who eats fairly low carb, but raises there blood sugar above the 140 mark?

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 27, 2014
at 03:46 PM

Avocado oil has a smoke point at 520°F. Extra Virgin Olive Oil at 375°F. Not a great idea to go near the smoke point. You're less likely to reach it with avocado. Also, it's more likely to be the fake stuff and mixed with canola or other crap. Best would be coconut.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 27, 2014
at 02:07 PM

And lard also has more PUFAs than olive oil (Lard: 39.2g saturated, 45.1g monounsaturated, and 11.2g polyunsaturated per 100g of oil http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/483/2). Olive oil is a great oil, and by far one of the best out there, negative statements against it are usually based on misinformation.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 27, 2014
at 02:02 PM

Extra-virgin olive oil is ideal from both a culinary and nutritional perspective. It is gastronomically superior to "light" olive oil. So yes I agree, use extra virgin whenever possible, by the way avocado oil contains far more PUFAs than olive oil (Avocado oil: 11.6g saturated, 70.6g monounsaturated, and 13.5g polyunsaturated per 100g of oil http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/620/2) vs (Olive oil: 13.8g saturated, 73g monounsaturated, and 10.5g polyunsaturated per 100g of oil http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/509/2)

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 27, 2014
at 01:49 PM

However, you will always need at least some degree of gluconeogenesis, else death will ensue. The substrates for gluconeogenesis under these circumstances will be comprised primarily of amino acids, although on a low protein diet, glycerol (resulting from the breakdown of triglycerides for energy) plays a more significant role.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 27, 2014
at 01:46 PM

Well, the longer you go on without ingesting carbs (assuming low protein intake), the longer the body is in ketosis and thus, the brain becomes more adapted to utilizing ketones for energy as opposed to glucose, thereby decreasing the need for gluconeogenesis since less glucose is being utilized by the brain; hence the term keto-adaptation.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 27, 2014
at 01:30 PM

Supposedly once fully fat adapted you don't even need glucogenesis from protein for glucose needs

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 27, 2014
at 01:20 PM

It may be BS but Rosedale says you can get enough glucose eating high fat/low carb without glucogenesis from protein, as long as you're high on fat & well adapted

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 27, 2014
at 01:19 PM

Yeah, it's time to start making broth again for sure

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 27, 2014
at 12:32 PM

Oxidized n6 PUFAs are very dangerous, but carbs do indeed cause glycation. On the SAD, you can't fix insulin resistance because it's never allowed to drop. :)

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 27, 2014
at 12:30 PM

Try increasing your glycine intake as well. i.e. collagen, bone broths, gelatin.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 27, 2014
at 10:47 AM

n=1 and all that.. I find if I go too long without carbs, or do more than 16 hours worth of fasting, it interferes with sleep. Maybe it's ok for other people, maybe it's fine for you, maybe I didn't overeat enough meat at the time.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on January 26, 2014
at 09:01 PM

The more I read, the more I realize high carb diets might not be the main contributor to glycation or an "aged look." High carb diets, especially if lower in fat, (pufas) increase insulin sensitivity, meaning less glycation. SAD dieters, eat diets high in refined carbohydrate and trans fat. Not the same as a healthy high carb diet from tubers, fruit, and legumes here and there

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 26, 2014
at 08:41 PM

Thanks, i inevitably eat some carbs around once or twice a week, weekends you know ;) I questioned the 'carbs at night' as two people in this thread have mentioned it, and i've also read elsewhere that it can interfere with GH release during sleep. So do you think the people that say you can meet all your glucose needs from being a fat burner are misinformed? They seem to say that if you do it long enough you become fully adapted, and having being mostly low carb but cheated fairly regularly i can see how they could argue that if you don't fully commit to it then you won't fully adapt.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 26, 2014
at 05:40 PM

Not quite the same thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_glycation_end-product

http://www.cs.stedwards.edu/chem/Chemistry/CHEM43/CHEM43/Glycoproteins/Glycoproteins.HTML

They're more components of cartilage and mucus. AGE's are carb damaged proteins.

Medium avatar

(624)

on January 26, 2014
at 04:48 PM

I'm confused now about the glycoproteins. I thought we were supposed to avoid glycoproteins but then maybe I'm confusing them with AGE's (Advenced Glycation Endproducts)? What is yhe benefit of increasing glycoprotein production?

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 26, 2014
at 04:04 PM

Interestingly, the aged look is usually from glycation (too many carbs) in the SAD, and not enough good oils. Certainly, too little protein will prevent repairs and contribute to this (and too much will have it convert to glucose and raise toxicity). You're spot on with what you say is prudent.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 26, 2014
at 04:02 PM

Careful with olive oil, keep the temperature low. Stuff sold as "lite" olive oil can be used for cooking, but it's usually not a great oil - and more likely to be fake olive oil. You'd be better off with avocado oil, lard, ghee/butter, tallow, or coconut oil instead.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 26, 2014
at 04:00 PM

Generally a carb refeed is recommended 1x/week for those going VLC. If you're doing fine with 50g carbs each day, that's cool. Keep it up - but if you ever wake up in the middle of the night, or experience a racing heart (something like a panic attack for no reason at all), that's the cortisol signaling gluconeogenesis, at which point, raise your carbs.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 26, 2014
at 03:58 PM

Glad you've got confirmation on the numbers. If you're too high on protein, you'll convert it to glucose, but the process of disposing of excess protein can be slightly toxic (will generate ammonia, etc.) We can use excess protein instead of glucose, but it's easier to just ingest some glucose. If you're too low on glucose, you can trigger cortisol - this signals gluconeogenesis, but it also will wake you up if it happens at night. Hence, carbs at night.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 26, 2014
at 10:17 AM

Thanks for the links, seems the calorie calculator i use was pretty much right for my calorie needs. For protein i'm going for the 1gm protein per lb of lean mass as i do want to gain some muscle, so that's about 70gm protein for me, which is half the amount of protein i've been eating recently so should make a difference.Why carbs at night? And why carbs at all? Glycoproteins? I can deal with straight fat fine really, yesterday after going for a long walk i ate straight butter & coconut oil and i felt so amazing when burning it, carbs make me feel edgy. 50grams per day is ok though.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 26, 2014
at 10:01 AM

I put 'low carb' in the title of the question because i can't tolerate carbs much so have to eat low carb, no way could i ever eat 'plenty of fruit' unless it was just avocados. Thanks for the suggestions anyway, maybe i am lacking glycoproteins... from what i've read saying fruit could be anti-aging when it contains so much fructose doesn't make sense, you could be right though i'm no expert.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 25, 2014
at 03:00 PM

Could be! I have had dry skin. Thanks for the links. I gave up eggs/red meat for a long time due to believing the hype, when i started again i ate alot so i think reigning in my protein intake is necessary right now, but quite possibly upping my carbs aswell. I like the idea of a sweet pot soaked in butter, or quinoa, but i naturally lost the taste for starchy foods due to annoying symptoms - sweet saliva gushing into my mouth for hours or days, which can't be good. I have a bag of sweet pots in my fridge so haven't ruled it out totally...

Be803dcde63e3cf5e21cc121097b8158

(529)

on January 25, 2014
at 02:28 PM

You might be experiencing a drying out of your body from reduced glycoprotein production. It is quite common on VLC diets, and something I experienced first hand (dry skin, eyes, lungs and GI tract). Here's a post from 2010 by Paul Jaminet that touches on that. And another that brings some balance to Ron Rosedale's VLC perspective.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 25, 2014
at 08:00 AM

My skin is worse everyday, under eye bags like a panda bear, wrinkles branching out to my cheeks. It sounds vain but it's literally like i'm deteriorating every day, quickly. I think i'll add some carbs back once i can tolerate them, i'm 6,3" and want to build, i have NO interest in losing weight. Right now i want to undo the damage i've been doing the last year. I noticed it very gradually, but more in recent months when i upped my protein to 150g+ due to thinking maybe i wasn't getting enough, newbies to LC tend to eat highish protein so maybe that's why many report ageing symptoms?

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 25, 2014
at 07:52 AM

Thanks for the encouragement, a 'shot of oil' is doable but i prefer the idea of whole foods over an oil straight up, i do like coconut oil or a bit of butter off the spoon tho. I love mackerel/sardines & have them everyday, i'll branch out to some of the nuts you suggested & start making mayo asap aswell.

For protein i'm going with '1gm protein per kg bodyweight minus 10%' so 75ish grams, im 6,3" and not looking to lose weight, i want to build, but halving my protein seems like a reasonable experiment for health, my bank balance will thank me aswell ;)

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 24, 2014
at 07:23 PM

Thanks for asking, I said 'sensitive' as technically i'm not diabetic, i think i'm pre-diabetic, basically whenever i eat carbs above 50g (after fibre) i start salivating profusely and the saliva is super super sweet. I can't find any info on this but i know for a fact that eating high fat/low carb stops it. I should add this phenomena only started after i majorly binged on chocolate regularly. I also prefer having bigger bowel movements, when i'm high fat/high protein/low carb it's nice only having to go once a day, but i prefer having a bigger more substantial BM that 'flows' better ;)

Medium avatar

(624)

on January 24, 2014
at 07:02 PM

I'm curious what you mean by "I'm very sensitive to carbs"? Are you pre-diabetic? I'm not asking to challenge you so much as get a better understanding for my own purposes. I've been swapping back and fourth between moderate carb and low carb. I feel better with 100-200 grams of carbs, and I poo better, but my ADHD gets worse. Reducing carbs to 50-100 grams I am better focused, by my digestive system complains. That's about all I notice. What does it mean when YOU say you're "sensitive to carbs"?

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6 Answers

0
Medium avatar

on January 27, 2014
at 09:28 PM

I really like mayonnaise and eat it with a lot of things, almond butter is amazing, bulletproof coffee will get fat in really easily, and I do a lot of coconut milk "milkshakes" with stevia and cocoa powder.

Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 27, 2014
at 09:53 PM

Mayonnaise (with paleo oils/fats) really is a life saver, specially when you consider all the culinary possibilities it opens up. Egg salad, tartar sauce, paleo ranch dressing, aioli, tuna salad, cole slaw, and all kinds of dips (like spicy mayo, curry mayo, and lemon pepper mayo, yumm). It makes just about any veggie or fish, interesting. It's awesome.

0
6fece842bd1bcf5724f458a302a2156e

on January 25, 2014
at 07:58 PM

Good answer from the gastronomer. I eat lots of sea food often fried in olive oil with veg and sometimes throw half an avocado in the pan too. I eat at 3 eggs a day.

I agree with the suggestion above of 3 palm sized bits of protein a day.

I tend to eat a sweet potato in the evenings at present as I seem to need that to keep happy and feeling good.

I eat too many nuts (and sometimes nuts and raisins mixed) which is why I am stuck around 140 pounds which is very annoying.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 26, 2014
at 04:02 PM

Careful with olive oil, keep the temperature low. Stuff sold as "lite" olive oil can be used for cooking, but it's usually not a great oil - and more likely to be fake olive oil. You'd be better off with avocado oil, lard, ghee/butter, tallow, or coconut oil instead.

0
742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on January 25, 2014
at 04:28 PM

I too have been looking a bit aged, but I am not quite that low carb, although for the amount of activity I do I probably am. I noticed more skin aging when I increase protein to anything over 10 ounces a day of meat. But lately I have been eating close to a pound and a a half of meat, because I am not too found of eating straight fat, and people have been telling me I look old.

I think in this situation it is prudent to lower protein, increase WHOLE FOOD sources of fat, and keep carb intake high. Eating plenty of fruit would provide a lot of antioxidants and vitamin c, neccssary for collagen production, and keeping carb intake high will increase glycoproteins production.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 26, 2014
at 10:01 AM

I put 'low carb' in the title of the question because i can't tolerate carbs much so have to eat low carb, no way could i ever eat 'plenty of fruit' unless it was just avocados. Thanks for the suggestions anyway, maybe i am lacking glycoproteins... from what i've read saying fruit could be anti-aging when it contains so much fructose doesn't make sense, you could be right though i'm no expert.

Medium avatar

(624)

on January 26, 2014
at 04:48 PM

I'm confused now about the glycoproteins. I thought we were supposed to avoid glycoproteins but then maybe I'm confusing them with AGE's (Advenced Glycation Endproducts)? What is yhe benefit of increasing glycoprotein production?

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on January 27, 2014
at 04:12 PM

Do carbs, however, only cause glycation if blood sugars get high? If I were to eat 400 grams of carbs a day, buty blood sugar never goes over 140, wouldn't it be less damaging then someone who eats fairly low carb, but raises there blood sugar above the 140 mark?

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 26, 2014
at 04:04 PM

Interestingly, the aged look is usually from glycation (too many carbs) in the SAD, and not enough good oils. Certainly, too little protein will prevent repairs and contribute to this (and too much will have it convert to glucose and raise toxicity). You're spot on with what you say is prudent.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on January 26, 2014
at 09:01 PM

The more I read, the more I realize high carb diets might not be the main contributor to glycation or an "aged look." High carb diets, especially if lower in fat, (pufas) increase insulin sensitivity, meaning less glycation. SAD dieters, eat diets high in refined carbohydrate and trans fat. Not the same as a healthy high carb diet from tubers, fruit, and legumes here and there

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on January 27, 2014
at 04:13 PM

...raises their blood sugar above the 140 mark when eating carbs.

0
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 25, 2014
at 04:11 PM

Protein is easy. Find what your lean mass in pounds is, multiply that number by .5 if you're not actively working out, by 1 if you're trying gain muscle and working out with weights. This will give you the number of grams of protein your body needs. Note that meat is ~30% (chicken breast)-25%(beef) protein, so you need to multiply the grams by 3 for chicken or 4 for beef. This will tell you how much to eat each day. It turns out to be 1/2lbs to 1lbs of meat a day for most people. A good shortcut is 3 palm sized pieces of meat a day - it works well since your palm will be relative to your height and lean body size.

In terms of carbs, somewhere between 50-200 grams a day is useful for most people, more if you're running or doing endurance sports.

The rest should be fat - usually to satiation. If you must get actual numbers, head on over to

http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/ to figure out your basal metabolic rate. This is the number of calories you need to lie down in bed 24hrs a day unconscious. i.e. to just barely exist. So you need then to go here: http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/harris-benedict-equation/

and multiply your BMR by the factor that applies to you. That's your total daily calories. You then subtract the protein and carb calories from that number, and what's left is what you need from fat. (of course some of this should be from your own fat stores.)

Ideally, the best thing to do is wing it. 3 palm sized portions of meat a day, and eat fats to satiation. Eat some carbs at night, not too many. If you find you can't deal with too much fat, you could try to supplement with Now Super Enzymes or another digestive enzyme supplement containing ox bile - this is absolutely required if you don't have a gallbladder, otherwise, you'd need to question why you'd want to down so much fat so quickly as to trigger stretorrhea.

:)

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 26, 2014
at 10:17 AM

Thanks for the links, seems the calorie calculator i use was pretty much right for my calorie needs. For protein i'm going for the 1gm protein per lb of lean mass as i do want to gain some muscle, so that's about 70gm protein for me, which is half the amount of protein i've been eating recently so should make a difference.Why carbs at night? And why carbs at all? Glycoproteins? I can deal with straight fat fine really, yesterday after going for a long walk i ate straight butter & coconut oil and i felt so amazing when burning it, carbs make me feel edgy. 50grams per day is ok though.

0
Be803dcde63e3cf5e21cc121097b8158

on January 25, 2014
at 03:48 AM

From what I've read, there are a lot more reports of people looking aged on low-carb diets than on high protein.

What signs of aging have your noticed, and how soon did they start?

You might be interested to read about glycoprotein production and thyroid health on low-carb diets. Not everyone can handle long-term low carb intake.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 25, 2014
at 08:00 AM

My skin is worse everyday, under eye bags like a panda bear, wrinkles branching out to my cheeks. It sounds vain but it's literally like i'm deteriorating every day, quickly. I think i'll add some carbs back once i can tolerate them, i'm 6,3" and want to build, i have NO interest in losing weight. Right now i want to undo the damage i've been doing the last year. I noticed it very gradually, but more in recent months when i upped my protein to 150g+ due to thinking maybe i wasn't getting enough, newbies to LC tend to eat highish protein so maybe that's why many report ageing symptoms?

0
Be157308a0438e382b88d9db4c12ab30

on January 24, 2014
at 07:29 PM

I applaud you good sir, I too am on a low-carb, low/moderate protein diet because of the exact same reasons as yourself. High protein consumption does lead to rapid aging since protein does trigger insulin release in addition to increasing IGF-1 levels, which causes your cells to engage in accelerated proliferation with little regard to repair, thereby promoting aging, degenerative diseases and cancer, plus excess protein turns to glucose anyhow (with the added detriment of producing ammonia).

If you are afraid of eating fat straight up, consider the following options: olives (both black or green), nuts (preferably macadamias, hazelnuts, almonds and pecans) and their respective butters, coconuts and their cream/fat, avocados and guacamole, paleo mayo using oils like light (refined) olive oil, macadamia oil, or avocado oil. Don't be afraid of drinking a little bit of extra-virgin olive oil from a shot glass, it's quite delicious. Render your own fat from pork bellies, duck skins, and other fatty chunks, use it for cooking. Eat veggies stir fried in fat (olive, duck, lard, coconut, butter, etc). Eat dark chocolate (above 85%) which contains primarily fat (palmitic, stearic, and oleic).

If you are trying to limit protein without going hungry, consider that eggs only pack 6g of protein but have a lot of nutrition, so you could eat 8, which is a lot, and only get 48 grams of protein (assuming you are limiting yourself to no more than 50g/day). Another great source of protein is sardines, kiperred herring, salmon, oysters, mussels, and other canned fish. If you like seafood you're in luck, you'll find that these can pack a lot of nutrition per each gram of protein, so you get the most nutrition for your protein budget.

Non-starchy veggies are also your best friend, get plenty of these, they make life worthwhile and delicious without adding a substantial amount of carbs, plus the fiber turns to butyric acid in you gut (a short chain fatty acid) so its like you're eating fat, plus they pack a lot of nutrients as you surely know by now.

Good luck!

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on January 25, 2014
at 07:52 AM

Thanks for the encouragement, a 'shot of oil' is doable but i prefer the idea of whole foods over an oil straight up, i do like coconut oil or a bit of butter off the spoon tho. I love mackerel/sardines & have them everyday, i'll branch out to some of the nuts you suggested & start making mayo asap aswell.

For protein i'm going with '1gm protein per kg bodyweight minus 10%' so 75ish grams, im 6,3" and not looking to lose weight, i want to build, but halving my protein seems like a reasonable experiment for health, my bank balance will thank me aswell ;)

Medium avatar

(624)

on January 31, 2014
at 10:56 PM

This is where it gets so confusing. Even a biochemistry degree won't get you to the right answer but a relatively literate, intelligent "layman" trying to sift through the recommendations comes up, as usual, with lots of conflicting suggestions. My intuition, feeding off of what I manage to understand about all this, tells me that it makes perfect sense to limit protein to just what the body needs, and maybe just a tad beyond that like how we treat most micronutrients. When you think about it, most individual amino acids may as well be considered micronutrients.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on January 31, 2014
at 10:34 PM

Ok, I'll bite. I did a lit search and found nothing to support your claim except two (not peer reviewed) articles that showed the effect of high protein diets on herbivores (one on rabbits, one on cows. In both cases the animals were on a 80-90% protein diet. That's a far cry from 25%-40%. Also they were herbivores and as such do not equate to humans.

What other research is out there? I ran the nurses study and it looks like higher protein equates to longer life span with no change in the cancer rate. (But we all know the problems with the nurse study)

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on February 01, 2014
at 01:54 PM

I no longer fear fat straight up, it is delicious and feels perfectly natural to have a swig of pure oil

7449baa29fffcd69fee853b523c965b9

(0)

on January 29, 2014
at 06:09 PM

I thought eating high protein was part of what Paleo was all about. Why is this bad?

Medium avatar

(624)

on January 31, 2014
at 10:59 PM

But the epidemiological studies seem to throw you all over the place... Then we have the whole fat/carb thing. All these years we've been told to avoid fats. We come to Paleo and limit carbs, up fats, and end up with too much protein. Then those most enthusiastic about long term health usually wind up on the low carb low protein track, which ultimately makes it hard to get all you micronutrients without supplementation or excessive consumption of fibrous veggies. I avoid too much fibrous veggies. You could turn to lots of offal and organ meats but then end up with too much of some

Medium avatar

(624)

on January 31, 2014
at 11:04 PM

of some things and too little of others, and when limiting protein end up rarely eating regular muscle meat, usually opting for bony/fatty stewed meats and liver. So, without an adequate background in biochemistry but a pretty good understanding overall, my own response has been high fat, moderate carb, low protein. Protein seems like the most necesary in moderation and the most harmful in excess. Carbs are NOT required, but make most of us "feel" better, and make it easier to get all your micronutrients. Fat is benign but tough to digest without fillers.

Medium avatar

(624)

on January 31, 2014
at 11:05 PM

So this leaves me with a better understanding and yet much MUCH more confusion than when I followed a relatively primal version of CW including whole foods, whole dairy, whole grain, etc... it seemed so easy. So now I'm desperately following this thread trying to glean a better understanding from brains like that of @TheGastronomer. Just keep in mind guys, even nerdy science types can't always understand a cellular protein reaction diagram thingy....

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