6

votes

Have I developed diabetes while eating LC paleo?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created November 16, 2011 at 4:21 PM

When I was pregnant for the first of 3 I was diagnosed with gestational diabetes after badly failing the glucose tolerance test. Within a week I was on insulin shots. (I have no family history of type I or type II diabetes, I'm caucasian, was underweight when I got pregnant and was only 32 ->no risk factors) I was told that since I was insulin dependant that there was a 50% chance that I would become a Type II diabetic within 5 years. That was 7 years ago. I had gestational diabetes for my other two pregnancies but was diet controlled because by that time I had learned what worked for me and what did not. Since then I have kept an eye on my blood sugars. Just over a year ago I felt terrible. I had a list of complaints longer than my arm. I felt like crap. I went paleo December of 2010. Within two weeks most of those issues had resolved. I was sold. I went lower and lower carb and lost nearly 30 lbs. I am guessing that I am usually under 30 carbs a day although I haven't figured it out in a while. I am at my goal weight right now. I am female, 40yo, 5' 3.5" and 103 lbs. The body fat scale says I am skinny fat at 20%BF (yes I know those scales can be inaccurate but the number is the same when I do the measurements). I don't excersise other than just being a busy mom of 3 young kids. I just had my yearly physical and had my cholesterol run but we forgot to add a HbA1c to the mix but I wasn't concerned enough to go back and have it done. It was 4.9% last year before going low carb so it shouldn't be a problem, right? I am pretty strict with my diet because I find I quickly feel like shit if I eat poorly. So I would say I am 95% on target. My lab values were as follows: Total: 227 LDL calculated: 170 HDL: 47 TG: 44 Vitamin D level: 76 (I supplement) STSH: 1.57

I was a bit freaked out at that high LDL and the DR called me back to her office to "counsel" me on it. I suppose I could get a VAP but I figured those LDL are probably the large fluffy type since I have no family history of heart disease and my TG/HDL ratio is great. Am I wrong? Should I be worried? Anyway so this brings me to my bigger concern. About a month ago I was out to dinner with my family and instead of having salad like I usually do I decided to throw caution to the wind and I had GF pizza. It was awesome. However less than an hour later I felt like I was dying. I know my blood sugar was high, real high but I didn't have my meter with me. I felt like I was surrounded in molasses, every step was an effort, my thinking was foggy, brain dead actually, lethargic, thirsty etc. It sucked. It took the rest of the afternoon to recover. Then earlier this week I was out with the kids. I picked up pizza for them. I was starving so ate the left overs which was only 3 very small slices of very thin crust pizza. About an hour and a half later I noticed that I was really thirsty so checked my blood sugar. It was 181!!! Even more concerning to me was that other than the thirst I was asymptomatic. So how high was it last month when I felt like I was dying??!! I checked my fasting BS this morning and it was a stunning 96. I am flipped out. Am I now diabetic?

I feel great when I eat well. The only other concern I have is with hair loss. It is coming out by the hand full and it is looking thin now. Is that a result of a LC diet? Should I be getting my thyroid checked out? I know that the TSH I had done tells me almost nothing.

So my concern is this. Has my low carb diet caused a carb intolerance? Is the low carb diet messing with my thyroid causing hair loss? I feel like I may need to up my carbs to stop from going bald but if I increase my carbs are my blood sugars going to soar? Rock and hard place situation here.

I would greatly appreciate any insight you brilliant people could offer me! Thanks so much.

C56baa1b4f39839c018180bf63226f7d

(3499)

on January 18, 2012
at 09:48 PM

Sundownv, how is your tolerance to potatoes and sweet potatoes? The primary starches in wheat and corn (amylose and amylopectin) are also the same starches in roots and tubers. I would look more at the proteins than the starches from grains, even GF grains, if roots and tubers don't give you problems.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 18, 2012
at 05:54 PM

Negative gut biopsy or blood? Did you do the enterolabs test? I skipped the biopsy but the enterolab test was pretty eye opening. At that point, I was definitely malnourished and yet quite overweight.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 18, 2012
at 05:52 PM

I think air hadoken is on to something. Since I cut my carbs, my tolerance for grains went in the toilet - and I've been GF for three years, and happily eating gluten free grains on a daily basis until 6 months ago. Just last week, I ate a big bowl of popcorn in a week moment, and I felt like dying. GF pizza crust also sits incredibly heavy now. And I've never had a "delicate" system. I think it's just the simple carbs.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 18, 2012
at 05:50 PM

Blueberry, can you share your chicken liver pate recipe? I'm also a hard sell on liver, but I'm game to try again... syrahna at g mail dot com

83d6a06c93bb3490dbca339cbbb63385

(526)

on December 12, 2011
at 12:50 AM

Ya know, fat, jiggle, and loose skin are perfectly normal at any weight other than those crazy body builder competition stuff.

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on December 06, 2011
at 03:08 PM

Thanks for that Rose! Can't believe I read that whole 30 comment-sequence...

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on December 06, 2011
at 08:49 AM

Diana, do you have an arguement to back up "A VLC diet of under 30g is not that great in the long term." I would like to see it please. Especially when giving out this info with authority to pre diabetics, diabetics.etc. "Bring out your dead"....."Bring out your dead..."

5c8139d7937126906bd9133bb6e10315

on November 21, 2011
at 03:59 PM

Berries are fine, and even some fruit as long as it's not 100% fructose. You shouldn't fear carbs - they can do a lot of good, especially by reducing cortisol. I would have some bloodwork and an ASI test to see what your levels are, and slowly introduce carbs. the goal is to be able to eat some carbs and not to have a huge reaction either way to carbs - you want your body to be able to handle them. If you are having this large of a reaction, you are not metabolically working properly.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on November 20, 2011
at 12:56 AM

Yes, Ambimorph, don't you know there's a veritable low-carb holocaust going on out there? And all those poor epileptic children -- CHILDREN!!!! -- on ketogenic diets. My god, have you no decency?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 19, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 19, 2011
at 12:56 AM

I'm not squelching truth, I'm squelching fear-mongering mythology based on half-truths.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 19, 2011
at 12:54 AM

As far as I can tell, the effect of physiological insulin resistance accounts for about 10-15 points. It does not account for a reading of 181.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 19, 2011
at 12:48 AM

I consider reactive hypoglycemia to be a health problem that I have corrected, but if someone cites some studies that say that what I've done to correct it is actually possibly unhealthy, I would thank them for the information and see what I might be able to alter rather than vociferously defending my diet and trying to squelch the truth from getting out.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 19, 2011
at 12:47 AM

The T3 reduction in calorie restriction is due to a decrease in carbohydrates. It's the same thing. Fasting produces the same changes as a ketogenic diet: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6761185 You're defending your diet against peer-reviewed studies with semantics. Of course BG will shoot up when someone eats bread after heavily restricting carbs. Same thing goes for an OGTT. That's a normal response. Obviously it's not a healthy response, but it is totally expected. The body is preserving glucose for the brain and you slam it with a huge load of glucose.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 19, 2011
at 12:27 AM

If you have no emotional investment in what you eat, it's because you haven't had a health problem to correct. If you had, you might have an experience to gain insight from instead of just speculation.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 19, 2011
at 12:23 AM

I'm not sure I should dignify that with an answer, Travis. My T3 is in normal range. Carb restriction, like calorie restriction, can lower T3. That's not the same as causing hypothyroid, and it is associated with longevity. I don't defend LC at all costs, I just defend it against claims that misrepresent the truth, by saying something tantamount to "LC breaks your thyroid", or "it's normal to have a BG reading of 181 after pizza if you've been LCing". Why is knowing my carbohydrate level more mundane than knowing the proportion of grains in your diet?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 07:01 PM

It's the sort of thing I've observed repeatedly with vegans. Are you a carnivorous vegan? I have no idea what my macronutrient ratios are and would view such a detail as terribly mundane. I have no emotional investment in what I eat; I simply do what makes sense. If we know that carbohydrate restriction has essentially the same effect as a selenium deficiency, shouldn't we make it known to everyone? Isn't it our duty?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 07:00 PM

It's the sort of thing I've observed repeatedly with vegans. Are you a carnivorous vegan? I have no idea what my macronutrient ratios are and would view such a detail is terribly mundane. I have no emotional investment in what I eat; I simply do what makes sense. If we know that carbohydrate restriction has essentially the same effect as a selenium deficiency, shouldn't we make it known to everyone? Isn't it our duty?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 06:56 PM

I donate my time here in order to give back for what I feel I've received from paleo in general. I disseminate information as I acquire it so that as many people are apprised of these things as possible. Is your goal to do the same or to defend carbohydrate restriction? Has your diet become your identity? Are you someone who happens to not eat carbohydrates or are you a Zero-Carber? You seem to take personal offense when anything potentially negative about carbohydrate restriction is mentioned.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 06:53 PM

If you've always had a low body temperature, might that indicate that you are hypothyroid for some other reason and thus don't notice the difference with low-carb? If you guys have been aware that carbohydrate restriction lowers T3, why have you never mentioned it to the piles of people restricting carbs who mention hypothyroid symptoms? I've only ever seen glowing reviews of carbohydrate restriction, never "this is great for weight loss, however, you should be aware of X, Y and Z." Are there other things that you don't bother mentioning to these new users?

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 03:00 PM

I agree that hypothyroid is not a desirable state in general, but maybe it depends on the cause. If LC was making me tired and sore and brain-fogged, and whatever else is a hypothyroid symptom, that would be a concern. My body temperature *is* usually low. But my body temperature has *always* been low regardless of diet. Eating high carb doesn't change that for me.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 02:54 PM

If I'm reading that right, it means low thyroid is associated with CVD only when there are other accompanying risk factors -- the effect goes away when controlled for those. A low carb diet improves the most reliable CVD risk factors, e.g. triglycerides and HDL.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 02:47 PM

Second, the connection between thyroid and CVD is inconsistent. Meta-study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16319809 "Consistently, good evidence exists for an increased cardiovascular morbidity in overt hyperthyroidism... The cardiovascular risk profile of overt hypothyroidism is characterized mainly by risk factors of atherosclerosis such as hypercholesterolemia and hypertension... the evidence for similarly increased cardiovascular morbidity and mortality rates in subclinical hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism is inconclusive, and the evidence is non-existent for overt hypothyroidism."

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 02:32 PM

Yes, people have looked at those questions to some extent. As to whether T3 just is lower in old age, they found that offspring of long-lived people also have low T3 compared to their cohort. So it's actually a genetic factor. See here: http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/65A/4/365.short

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 05:44 AM

I don't exactly see the hypothyroid claiming to be the most healthy people around. There's little indication that they are anything but harmed by their condition. I suppose it's possible that after a long enough acclimation, the body no longer views carbohydrate restriction as starvation. Have you tested your body temperature? Is it low at this point?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 05:41 AM

I'm not able to determine if being really old lowers T3 or if having a lower T3 allows you to get really old. Clearly the entire TRH-TSH-T4-T3 cascade is meant to produce sufficient T3 to perform all of its myriad functions. If you do something that breaks the chain between T4 and T3 then you are definitely inhibiting the function of the thyroid. It's possible that you could slow everything down enough to live longer, but you could also have a heart attack because it interferes with blood lipids or something along those lines.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 04:47 AM

Travis, after much deliberation, I think saying "reduced function" doesn't necessarily imply broken. It could just mean reduced output. The ambiguity makes me uncomfortable, though, because it could be taken either way, and the implications are different.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 04:27 AM

Here's a possible positive, Travis. Low T3 is at least associated with longevity. See for example: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0197458006001084 "Our data revealed several differences in the neuroendocrine and metabolic status of centenarians, compared with other age groups, including the lowest serum concentrations of leptin, insulin and T3, and the highest values for prolactin."

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 03:54 AM

No, I'm not really claiming anything either way about that. I'm just saying that if organ X makes more or less of some substance Y under different conditions, that doesn't mean that the condition that causes it to make less is reducing the *function* of that organ. Saying something reduces the function of something is saying it breaks it so it doesn't respond properly. If lower T3 is the proper response to lower carbs, then the thyroid is functioning exactly right. It's a semantic issue, but I think it's an important distinction.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 12:44 AM

You know, I've been trying over the last few hours to wrap my mind around your viewpoint and I am unable to reconcile it with my understanding of T3. It simply affects so many different tissues around the body that I can't see its reduction as being anything other than negative. This is but one more starvation parallel that I cannot ignore.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 10:48 PM

So are you saying that carb-eaters are hyperthyroid?

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 17, 2011
at 10:08 PM

By the way, I don't think anyone should consider a BG reading of 181 normal, low carb or not.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 17, 2011
at 08:27 PM

Oh, I'm aware that it lowers T3! This may sound pedantic, but there is a world of difference in my mind between claiming that something lowers T3, and that something that decreases thyroid "function". Lower T3 is a normal functional response to low calorie or low carb. Presumably increasing carbs or calories then raises T3. So I wouldn't say function is decreased.

27361737e33ba2f73ab3c25d2699ad61

(1880)

on November 17, 2011
at 05:13 PM

Hi Kimi, I think the yoga would be excellent as it would serve the dual purpose of lowering stress levels. I think less (but wise less) is more re exercise. For what it's worth, I asked my athletic hubby his thoughts and he said "She's a busy mom with 3 children -- that is the ultimate workout!" He has kids from prior marriage -- I don't.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on November 17, 2011
at 11:21 AM

They work synergistically. If one is out of balance, it's easier to develop vitamin deficiency or toxicity. That doesn't mean they have to be tested - if you eat enough liver, A is probably covered and if you don't supplement, there's a very good chance K2 isn't. You're moving in uncertain grounds with that D3 level.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:29 AM

http://www.jacn.org/content/4/4/451.short

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:26 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16358395

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:24 AM

I guess it's a fairly common phenomenon in most animals http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/2/351.short

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:23 AM

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0026049578901373

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:21 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7096916

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:16 AM

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/42/1/197.short http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2265.2001.01158.x/full http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC371281/pdf/jcinvest00683-0196.pdf http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0026049586901265 This one implies that high fat has an effect itself http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0026049580900359

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 17, 2011
at 03:56 AM

That does sound doable. I have just started doing yoga and that feels good. I just need to be consistent. Thanks for the link.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 17, 2011
at 03:55 AM

Lots of great stuff here. I hope you are right and that it is temporary. I do supplement with biotin 10 mg twice daily. You bring up a good point about meal skipping. Maybe I should check into fitday again because lack of appetite is definitely an issue some days. Honestly I like that about a LC diet. It's nice to not feel hungry. That said, I would rather feel hunger than be balding. I need to look at my protein intake as well as looking into my iodine intake. I think that may be a problem. Thanks for the alternate ideas.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 17, 2011
at 03:45 AM

Tested negative. I am gluten intolerant tho and avoid it 100%. My husband and 2 of 3 kids have CD so we are all gluten free.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 17, 2011
at 03:42 AM

A and k2 were never drawn. Can you explain why I need them checked?

33907fee54e98865a1988e5eef59147e

(480)

on November 17, 2011
at 02:38 AM

Dean, on what grounds are you asking "how her A is"? The k2 is legit, but as many questions and blogs show, we don't know about A.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 17, 2011
at 02:02 AM

Do you have a reference for "known to decrease thyroid function"?

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on November 16, 2011
at 11:47 PM

D3 is high. How is your A and K2?

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on November 16, 2011
at 11:43 PM

With such a high D3 level you better make sure to get adequate Vitamin A and K2.

C56baa1b4f39839c018180bf63226f7d

(3499)

on November 16, 2011
at 08:41 PM

A feeling like my colon was processing sand, and an unpleasant change in stool consistency. Anyway, I just mean to avoid grains and legumes when trying to ascertain what effect straight starches, oligosaccharides, and sugars have on your BG, because wheat, soy, and other grains may cause other side effects which give you that ill, run-down feeling irrespective of BG changes.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 08:36 PM

I will give that a shot. Thanks again.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:48 PM

At the very least, you should do a set of bodyweight squats to momentary failure (i.e. you can't do another repetition no matter what) several times a week.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:35 PM

Awesome links! I do have a body image issues. I still look in the mirror and see fat, jiggle and loose skin. Those pictures are really helpful. There is just no way I could ever look at myself as is and see "athletic" tho. :)

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:14 PM

Ugh, excercise. It is so hard to find the time to do something you don't enjoy doing.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:13 PM

GF pizza crust wrecks your digestive system? In what way? I will experiment with less processed carbs and check my BS to see how I respond.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:12 PM

I have to admit, I have become a bit carb phobic. I fear weight gain and fear feeling poorly and both of those things seem to accompany increasing carb intake. That said going bald isn't very appealing either. I had a kidney stone this summer so I also try to avoid high oxalate foods so that would eliminate sweet potatoes, white potatoes, carrots... I will check my list to see what starchy veggies I can have. I am assuming you are suggesting roots and tubers and not fruit due to fructose content of fruit???

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:09 PM

I think I am good on my D as my level was 76. I do eat a ton of eggs. I have 16 laying hens so I always have lots on hand. Yes to the liver and bone broth. I dislike beef liver but I have found a way to make chicken liver pate that I love. Made some last night. Yes to oysters too. Although I can't imagine it would hurt to increase those things.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:06 PM

I don't actually eat much dairy. Not sure why my LDL is that high. That is good to hear that what I am experiencing is normal. I will check my waking temp to see where I am at. If my thyroid low is there anything else I can do besides bumping up my carbs? thank you so much for your input.

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11 Answers

7
Medium avatar

on November 16, 2011
at 04:38 PM

Sounds like you should just avoid pizza....Seriously though, you're not dying and you don't have diabetes. The cholesterol levels are normal, especially if you eat a lot of dairy fat from butter and cream.

As for the blood sugar issue, by eating low carb you develop insulin resistance in your muscles (not the same as hepatic and later adipose insulin resistance that is associated with obesity/diabetes). This is so that glucose can be spared for the brain when it finally does arrive. When you ingest a large amount of rapidly digesting carbohydrates when you're otherwise LC, you should experience a spike like you describe.

Low carb is known to decrease thyroid function, so that may be your hair loss issue. If your waking body temperature is really low (like 96.*) then your thyroid is probably being told by the hypothalamus to not work very hard.

Most of your issues would probably be solved with more carbohydrates (smallish amounts throughout the day) and more exercise so that you have a healthy number of mitochondria to process the glucose when it arrives.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:48 PM

At the very least, you should do a set of bodyweight squats to momentary failure (i.e. you can't do another repetition no matter what) several times a week.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 08:36 PM

I will give that a shot. Thanks again.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:29 AM

http://www.jacn.org/content/4/4/451.short

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:26 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16358395

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:21 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7096916

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:24 AM

I guess it's a fairly common phenomenon in most animals http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/2/351.short

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:23 AM

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0026049578901373

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:06 PM

I don't actually eat much dairy. Not sure why my LDL is that high. That is good to hear that what I am experiencing is normal. I will check my waking temp to see where I am at. If my thyroid low is there anything else I can do besides bumping up my carbs? thank you so much for your input.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 17, 2011
at 10:08 PM

By the way, I don't think anyone should consider a BG reading of 181 normal, low carb or not.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 04:47 AM

Travis, after much deliberation, I think saying "reduced function" doesn't necessarily imply broken. It could just mean reduced output. The ambiguity makes me uncomfortable, though, because it could be taken either way, and the implications are different.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 03:00 PM

I agree that hypothyroid is not a desirable state in general, but maybe it depends on the cause. If LC was making me tired and sore and brain-fogged, and whatever else is a hypothyroid symptom, that would be a concern. My body temperature *is* usually low. But my body temperature has *always* been low regardless of diet. Eating high carb doesn't change that for me.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 07:00 PM

It's the sort of thing I've observed repeatedly with vegans. Are you a carnivorous vegan? I have no idea what my macronutrient ratios are and would view such a detail is terribly mundane. I have no emotional investment in what I eat; I simply do what makes sense. If we know that carbohydrate restriction has essentially the same effect as a selenium deficiency, shouldn't we make it known to everyone? Isn't it our duty?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 05:44 AM

I don't exactly see the hypothyroid claiming to be the most healthy people around. There's little indication that they are anything but harmed by their condition. I suppose it's possible that after a long enough acclimation, the body no longer views carbohydrate restriction as starvation. Have you tested your body temperature? Is it low at this point?

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 19, 2011
at 12:54 AM

As far as I can tell, the effect of physiological insulin resistance accounts for about 10-15 points. It does not account for a reading of 181.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 17, 2011
at 02:02 AM

Do you have a reference for "known to decrease thyroid function"?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 05:41 AM

I'm not able to determine if being really old lowers T3 or if having a lower T3 allows you to get really old. Clearly the entire TRH-TSH-T4-T3 cascade is meant to produce sufficient T3 to perform all of its myriad functions. If you do something that breaks the chain between T4 and T3 then you are definitely inhibiting the function of the thyroid. It's possible that you could slow everything down enough to live longer, but you could also have a heart attack because it interferes with blood lipids or something along those lines.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 19, 2011
at 12:48 AM

I consider reactive hypoglycemia to be a health problem that I have corrected, but if someone cites some studies that say that what I've done to correct it is actually possibly unhealthy, I would thank them for the information and see what I might be able to alter rather than vociferously defending my diet and trying to squelch the truth from getting out.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 02:47 PM

Second, the connection between thyroid and CVD is inconsistent. Meta-study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16319809 "Consistently, good evidence exists for an increased cardiovascular morbidity in overt hyperthyroidism... The cardiovascular risk profile of overt hypothyroidism is characterized mainly by risk factors of atherosclerosis such as hypercholesterolemia and hypertension... the evidence for similarly increased cardiovascular morbidity and mortality rates in subclinical hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism is inconclusive, and the evidence is non-existent for overt hypothyroidism."

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:14 PM

Ugh, excercise. It is so hard to find the time to do something you don't enjoy doing.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 17, 2011
at 08:27 PM

Oh, I'm aware that it lowers T3! This may sound pedantic, but there is a world of difference in my mind between claiming that something lowers T3, and that something that decreases thyroid "function". Lower T3 is a normal functional response to low calorie or low carb. Presumably increasing carbs or calories then raises T3. So I wouldn't say function is decreased.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 10:48 PM

So are you saying that carb-eaters are hyperthyroid?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 12:44 AM

You know, I've been trying over the last few hours to wrap my mind around your viewpoint and I am unable to reconcile it with my understanding of T3. It simply affects so many different tissues around the body that I can't see its reduction as being anything other than negative. This is but one more starvation parallel that I cannot ignore.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 17, 2011
at 04:16 AM

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/42/1/197.short http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2265.2001.01158.x/full http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC371281/pdf/jcinvest00683-0196.pdf http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0026049586901265 This one implies that high fat has an effect itself http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0026049580900359

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 02:32 PM

Yes, people have looked at those questions to some extent. As to whether T3 just is lower in old age, they found that offspring of long-lived people also have low T3 compared to their cohort. So it's actually a genetic factor. See here: http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/65A/4/365.short

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 04:27 AM

Here's a possible positive, Travis. Low T3 is at least associated with longevity. See for example: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0197458006001084 "Our data revealed several differences in the neuroendocrine and metabolic status of centenarians, compared with other age groups, including the lowest serum concentrations of leptin, insulin and T3, and the highest values for prolactin."

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 06:56 PM

I donate my time here in order to give back for what I feel I've received from paleo in general. I disseminate information as I acquire it so that as many people are apprised of these things as possible. Is your goal to do the same or to defend carbohydrate restriction? Has your diet become your identity? Are you someone who happens to not eat carbohydrates or are you a Zero-Carber? You seem to take personal offense when anything potentially negative about carbohydrate restriction is mentioned.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 02:54 PM

If I'm reading that right, it means low thyroid is associated with CVD only when there are other accompanying risk factors -- the effect goes away when controlled for those. A low carb diet improves the most reliable CVD risk factors, e.g. triglycerides and HDL.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 18, 2011
at 03:54 AM

No, I'm not really claiming anything either way about that. I'm just saying that if organ X makes more or less of some substance Y under different conditions, that doesn't mean that the condition that causes it to make less is reducing the *function* of that organ. Saying something reduces the function of something is saying it breaks it so it doesn't respond properly. If lower T3 is the proper response to lower carbs, then the thyroid is functioning exactly right. It's a semantic issue, but I think it's an important distinction.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 07:01 PM

It's the sort of thing I've observed repeatedly with vegans. Are you a carnivorous vegan? I have no idea what my macronutrient ratios are and would view such a detail as terribly mundane. I have no emotional investment in what I eat; I simply do what makes sense. If we know that carbohydrate restriction has essentially the same effect as a selenium deficiency, shouldn't we make it known to everyone? Isn't it our duty?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 19, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 18, 2011
at 06:53 PM

If you've always had a low body temperature, might that indicate that you are hypothyroid for some other reason and thus don't notice the difference with low-carb? If you guys have been aware that carbohydrate restriction lowers T3, why have you never mentioned it to the piles of people restricting carbs who mention hypothyroid symptoms? I've only ever seen glowing reviews of carbohydrate restriction, never "this is great for weight loss, however, you should be aware of X, Y and Z." Are there other things that you don't bother mentioning to these new users?

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 19, 2011
at 12:56 AM

I'm not squelching truth, I'm squelching fear-mongering mythology based on half-truths.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 19, 2011
at 12:23 AM

I'm not sure I should dignify that with an answer, Travis. My T3 is in normal range. Carb restriction, like calorie restriction, can lower T3. That's not the same as causing hypothyroid, and it is associated with longevity. I don't defend LC at all costs, I just defend it against claims that misrepresent the truth, by saying something tantamount to "LC breaks your thyroid", or "it's normal to have a BG reading of 181 after pizza if you've been LCing". Why is knowing my carbohydrate level more mundane than knowing the proportion of grains in your diet?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 19, 2011
at 12:47 AM

The T3 reduction in calorie restriction is due to a decrease in carbohydrates. It's the same thing. Fasting produces the same changes as a ketogenic diet: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6761185 You're defending your diet against peer-reviewed studies with semantics. Of course BG will shoot up when someone eats bread after heavily restricting carbs. Same thing goes for an OGTT. That's a normal response. Obviously it's not a healthy response, but it is totally expected. The body is preserving glucose for the brain and you slam it with a huge load of glucose.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 19, 2011
at 12:27 AM

If you have no emotional investment in what you eat, it's because you haven't had a health problem to correct. If you had, you might have an experience to gain insight from instead of just speculation.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on November 20, 2011
at 12:56 AM

Yes, Ambimorph, don't you know there's a veritable low-carb holocaust going on out there? And all those poor epileptic children -- CHILDREN!!!! -- on ketogenic diets. My god, have you no decency?

531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

(8878)

on December 06, 2011
at 03:08 PM

Thanks for that Rose! Can't believe I read that whole 30 comment-sequence...

6
026dde5c5ed48e30d006ac075410871e

(288)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:18 PM

You are not skinny fat at 20% body fat. 20% puts you in the "athletic" category for women according to the American Council on Exercise. If you want to see a visual of bodyfat percentages, see Tim Fenriss (4-Hour Body) or Leigh Peele.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:35 PM

Awesome links! I do have a body image issues. I still look in the mirror and see fat, jiggle and loose skin. Those pictures are really helpful. There is just no way I could ever look at myself as is and see "athletic" tho. :)

83d6a06c93bb3490dbca339cbbb63385

(526)

on December 12, 2011
at 12:50 AM

Ya know, fat, jiggle, and loose skin are perfectly normal at any weight other than those crazy body builder competition stuff.

6
Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 16, 2011
at 04:28 PM

Low carb & insulin resistance go hand-in-hand.

This may be helpful for the blood sugar question: http://robbwolf.com/2010/09/06/gestational-diabetes-what-constitutes-low-blood-sugar/

Adding carbs may help with your hair loss. If you add them, do it slowly.

Are you getting enough nutrients? Really important that you eat the "whole animal" when eating LC/VLC.

Sufficient D?

Eggs?

Eating liver & bone broth or gelatin?

Oysters for zinc?

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:09 PM

I think I am good on my D as my level was 76. I do eat a ton of eggs. I have 16 laying hens so I always have lots on hand. Yes to the liver and bone broth. I dislike beef liver but I have found a way to make chicken liver pate that I love. Made some last night. Yes to oysters too. Although I can't imagine it would hurt to increase those things.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 18, 2012
at 05:50 PM

Blueberry, can you share your chicken liver pate recipe? I'm also a hard sell on liver, but I'm game to try again... syrahna at g mail dot com

4
C56baa1b4f39839c018180bf63226f7d

on November 16, 2011
at 05:50 PM

Elevated fasting BG is normal, since your system is adapted to de novo gluconeogenesis, and not dependent on the carb rush/carb crash cycle to stay regulated. Chances are that if you increase your carb level, your fasting BG will actually go down, and you will be better adapted to cheat days.

However...

Chances are VERY good that eating things that are carby but not pizza-crust-carby will have a much different effect than what you're describing. I can't eat GF pizza crust; it wrecks my digestive system. Normal pizza makes me feel pretty heavy. Maybe you could experiment with potato/sweet potato and see if it does something different.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:13 PM

GF pizza crust wrecks your digestive system? In what way? I will experiment with less processed carbs and check my BS to see how I respond.

C56baa1b4f39839c018180bf63226f7d

(3499)

on November 16, 2011
at 08:41 PM

A feeling like my colon was processing sand, and an unpleasant change in stool consistency. Anyway, I just mean to avoid grains and legumes when trying to ascertain what effect straight starches, oligosaccharides, and sugars have on your BG, because wheat, soy, and other grains may cause other side effects which give you that ill, run-down feeling irrespective of BG changes.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 18, 2012
at 05:52 PM

I think air hadoken is on to something. Since I cut my carbs, my tolerance for grains went in the toilet - and I've been GF for three years, and happily eating gluten free grains on a daily basis until 6 months ago. Just last week, I ate a big bowl of popcorn in a week moment, and I felt like dying. GF pizza crust also sits incredibly heavy now. And I've never had a "delicate" system. I think it's just the simple carbs.

C56baa1b4f39839c018180bf63226f7d

(3499)

on January 18, 2012
at 09:48 PM

Sundownv, how is your tolerance to potatoes and sweet potatoes? The primary starches in wheat and corn (amylose and amylopectin) are also the same starches in roots and tubers. I would look more at the proteins than the starches from grains, even GF grains, if roots and tubers don't give you problems.

3
27361737e33ba2f73ab3c25d2699ad61

(1880)

on November 16, 2011
at 11:27 PM

Hi Kimi,

I don't think you are going bald from paleo or vlc. I think you are likely experiencing tellogen effluvium which is a very common hair shedding that follows significant weight loss (30 pounds is significant on your petite frame.) Fat loss also equals estrogen loss and this is especially true at your age so again, this fluctuation could cause a temporary hair shed like telogen effluvium. Rest assured, if that is the cause, it is temporary. Google it and/or check out: http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/hair-loss/effluviums

VLC has natural diuretic effect and you could be peeing out your b vites. Try 5 mg of biotin even if you are eating sevearl eggs per day -- excellent for hair. If you take a lipoic acid supplement, it can cause interference with body's use of biotin -- so always supplement with biotin if you take alpha lipoic or r-lipoic acid supplements. Note that telogen effluvium can occur after other stresses to the body such as surgery or any other severe or chronic period of stress. The shedding typically occurs several months after the period of stress is resolved and therefore those who experience it have difficulty seeing cause and effect until they realize the length of hair follicle growth and resting phases.

At your petite size, I see no reason why you need to add 50 or 75 grams of carbs unless you want to. VLC is not making you bald unless the natural appetite suppressant effect is causing you to skip meals due to lack of hunger. Your body could perceive meal skipping as a stress. Hair is made of protein and since you are vlc, I assume you eat adequate protein. One other thought is anemia -- this too could cause a shedding issue. Also, get a full thyroid panel (free t3, free t4, antibodies) and don't be satisfied with just a TSH to rule out thyroid issues. At 40, your body is not going to react to significant changes such as your excellent weight loss without a few bumps here and there on the road.

Congrats on your weightloss succcess and I don't think you have diabetes based on the pizza incident. Your body wasn't used to handling the carb onslaught of the pizza so your glucose went higher than it normally does and you understandably felt crappy. Follow your fasting and A1C to look for meaningful trends if you are really worried. But you had an unusual meal and so a blood sugar deviation is not so unusual. One last thing, lack of restorative sleep absolutely raises blood sugar and impairs glucose tolerance even in the young and healthy. (Sleep deprived college students who had been cramming for exams tested pre-diabetic but normalized after getting back on normal sleep schedules.) Also skipping meals and especially breakfast can raise blood sugar and impair glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity in some people. Hope this helps.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 17, 2011
at 03:55 AM

Lots of great stuff here. I hope you are right and that it is temporary. I do supplement with biotin 10 mg twice daily. You bring up a good point about meal skipping. Maybe I should check into fitday again because lack of appetite is definitely an issue some days. Honestly I like that about a LC diet. It's nice to not feel hungry. That said, I would rather feel hunger than be balding. I need to look at my protein intake as well as looking into my iodine intake. I think that may be a problem. Thanks for the alternate ideas.

2
149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

on November 23, 2011
at 07:46 AM

Yes...you were diabetic. Are you still? Get a BS meter from WalMart...Relion...100 strips 38$ and check your BS after any food you suspect. If you go over 140...dont eat it. Have your HBA1c checked (3 month avg. BS), get your Insulin/Leptin and C Reactive protein checked.(inflammation) C Peptide checked to see where your beta cells are as far as their health. Lastly, protect your children. Because of the gestational diabetes, they are much more at risk to develop diabetes. HOWEVER...they never have too. If you educate yourself and educate them on the way to eat to keep BS and Insulin and Leptin low...they will not become diabetic.

Just one of many studies on this. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110526064633.htm Look at the Gestational as a warning. It is your canary in the coal mine. Take it seriously and understand that you can prevent this. Good luck.

1
27361737e33ba2f73ab3c25d2699ad61

(1880)

on November 16, 2011
at 11:41 PM

Re Exercise:

This is a super quick morning routine from Tim Ferris. He uses it to prevent fat storage but it's a great little AM routine. I wake up and after some back/neck stretching and hip rotations, I do Ferris' 3 exercises : 3 sets of air squats, 3 sets of exercise band pulls and 3 sets of wall pushups. This is a super quick morning routine . Scroll to middle of page of this link and it shows videos of the exercises: http://fitnessblackbook.com/diet-tips/gone-in-60-seconds-one-minute-of-activity-to-avoid-storing-calories-of-a-meal-as-body-fat/

This seriously takes just minutes and builds functional strength. If you feel like it, add a plank for 60 seconds or more.

Also, make meditation and deep breathing a part of your life.

Woops -- forgot to add -- eat breakfast before the exercise above. The link speaks of doing them before a meal to avoid fat storage but doesn't apply to you. Read Quilt's blog today -- especially about light and meal timing and exercise timing. Great stuff.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 17, 2011
at 03:56 AM

That does sound doable. I have just started doing yoga and that feels good. I just need to be consistent. Thanks for the link.

27361737e33ba2f73ab3c25d2699ad61

(1880)

on November 17, 2011
at 05:13 PM

Hi Kimi, I think the yoga would be excellent as it would serve the dual purpose of lowering stress levels. I think less (but wise less) is more re exercise. For what it's worth, I asked my athletic hubby his thoughts and he said "She's a busy mom with 3 children -- that is the ultimate workout!" He has kids from prior marriage -- I don't.

1
5c8139d7937126906bd9133bb6e10315

on November 16, 2011
at 04:34 PM

Yes, your VLC diet can cause you to not handle insulin very well. I'm a paleo nutritionist. I would suggest you up your carbs to 50 - 75 grams per day through roots and tubers and get to a gym to get some more muscle tone. A VLC diet of under 30g is not that great in the long term. Diana

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 16, 2011
at 07:12 PM

I have to admit, I have become a bit carb phobic. I fear weight gain and fear feeling poorly and both of those things seem to accompany increasing carb intake. That said going bald isn't very appealing either. I had a kidney stone this summer so I also try to avoid high oxalate foods so that would eliminate sweet potatoes, white potatoes, carrots... I will check my list to see what starchy veggies I can have. I am assuming you are suggesting roots and tubers and not fruit due to fructose content of fruit???

5c8139d7937126906bd9133bb6e10315

on November 21, 2011
at 03:59 PM

Berries are fine, and even some fruit as long as it's not 100% fructose. You shouldn't fear carbs - they can do a lot of good, especially by reducing cortisol. I would have some bloodwork and an ASI test to see what your levels are, and slowly introduce carbs. the goal is to be able to eat some carbs and not to have a huge reaction either way to carbs - you want your body to be able to handle them. If you are having this large of a reaction, you are not metabolically working properly.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on December 06, 2011
at 08:49 AM

Diana, do you have an arguement to back up "A VLC diet of under 30g is not that great in the long term." I would like to see it please. Especially when giving out this info with authority to pre diabetics, diabetics.etc. "Bring out your dead"....."Bring out your dead..."

0
149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

on December 06, 2011
at 08:52 AM

One more new study on the subject. Please keep an eye on BS/Insulin/Leptin/Inflammation... http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/754734?src=nl_topic

0
13c5a9f1678d75b93f269cdcf69f14d5

(2339)

on November 17, 2011
at 02:27 AM

Check for celiac. Because of the no risk factors for GD.

Ac74a86b3ed0211ca7b120b53ea6a8c2

(583)

on November 17, 2011
at 03:45 AM

Tested negative. I am gluten intolerant tho and avoid it 100%. My husband and 2 of 3 kids have CD so we are all gluten free.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 18, 2012
at 05:54 PM

Negative gut biopsy or blood? Did you do the enterolabs test? I skipped the biopsy but the enterolab test was pretty eye opening. At that point, I was definitely malnourished and yet quite overweight.

0
E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 16, 2011
at 05:26 PM

check out dannyroddy.com

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