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Hack Denise Minger's Lecture on the 2012 Low-Carb Cruise

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created September 07, 2013 at 12:44 AM

What more can be said about the lovely Denise Minger? She's a paleo force of nature who has risen to become one of the preeminent authorities on ancestral diet and nutrition (and who, along with Chris Masterjohn, forms one half of a true paleo "power couple"). Us paleo peeps are indeed lucky to have them! A link to the full video can be found here -

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/2012-low-carb-cruise-lecture-denise-minger/14949.

Credit must also be given to the inimitable Jimmy Moore who, as organizer of the 2012 Low-Carb Cruise, made all this possible. That event is quickly becoming the defining "gathering of the paleo tribes" (next year: Robb Wolf!), and only Jimmy could have pulled it all together...

So, any thoughts?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 09, 2012
at 12:23 AM

wtf there is no bad blood between me and Denise. Chris and I parted on perfectly logical terms.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 08, 2012
at 08:07 PM

Also to Chauncey's point. Yes the "China Study" definitely had their bias, but so did Minger. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Ultimately the difference was that Minger failed to follow the scientific method, and just went fishing for stats that disprove those presented by Campbell. That's simply not how statistics or science work. Her findings are invalid and inappropriate.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 08, 2012
at 08:05 PM

Personally I disagree with the findings of the "China Study". Primarily because I don't believe their work created findings, rather their work created a starting point for future work (but no body pays for work without opinions). But also because I find that there are compounding second-order effects that are not properly evaluated in their study (hence the fact that their study is a starting point).

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 08, 2012
at 08:02 PM

Chauncey & WildWabbit. 600 characters cannot even start to explain. Any descriptive statistics or experiment design course (typically 300 level courses) would be enough to understand the problems associated with fishing for correlations. The scientific method, while flawed, still ensure proper interpretation of first-order effects. Denise ignored the scientific method. If we looked at a group of basketball players we could infer that height is a good predictor of athletic ability. But it is not if we look at a larger population. Our population was just exemplary at height and athletics.

3b0b95dfc6dc5c18e535945f4aab0866

(2392)

on August 08, 2012
at 06:04 PM

CD, this is good discussion. While I have a confirmation bias regarding Minger's results, I never understood how people could claim her methods were faulty without ever actually going into a modicum of detail as to how her methods were bad, much less worse than Campbells. You are providing information that no one else has, and I appreciate that (you got my upvote on your comment.). I wish you and otherwise would elaborate even more.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on August 08, 2012
at 05:49 PM

She does unto the data what Campbell did to it to show what CD says about her is true about him. Campbell, probably deliberately, misunderstood this too. This is the emperor-has-no clothes story, and Minger is a more than usually thorough young woman playing the role of the child pointing. I suppose the naked emperor would like to become opaque by complicating the subject. Her talk was too boring to watch, because I've already read her critique. I suppose it is useful if you haven't read it.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on August 06, 2012
at 05:40 PM

CD, I still think I'm missing something. I'm sure "The China Study" was designed to add to the knowledge base. Aren't all studies? Why would we do them otherwise? And yes, statistical analysis should be guided by theory. I think one part of Minger's argument is that sometimes analyses are interpreted so that they're consistent with prevailing theory and findings that run counter to the theory are ignored or glossed over. I'm not sure what you mean by "every population set is exemplary at something."

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 06, 2012
at 05:56 AM

Any errors of Minger's were probably intentional. Got to confuse those vegans somehow.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 05, 2012
at 11:39 PM

Chauncey, There is no way to explain in this box, but I will give you a couple of points. First, "The China Study" was designed to add to the knowledge base. Second, a tenant of statistical analysis is that there must be a theoretical connection between two populations prior to looking for univariate correlations (which she both lambastes, and then uses for her own defense). You can not just go fishing for statistics, every population set is exemplary at something. For the record I am a meat and dairy consumer, in no way a vegan.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on August 05, 2012
at 09:26 PM

CD, can you say more about what you think Minger misinterpreted (e.g., what stats she misunderstands)? Without specifics, it's hard to judge the validity of your argument.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:37 PM

I have no idea about Krusegate, nor do I care about the "soap opera" lives of people in the paleo/ primal blogosphere. As someone who has knowledge of statistics, this post (http://tinyurl.com/29oqy2s) shows that Minger completely misinterpreted "The China Study" findings. I have nothing against Minger personally, I think she's a good blogger, and I read her blog regularly. But her findings were flat out inappropriate and show a massive misunderstanding of how statistics work. So vote me down, fine, then go take an experiment design course

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:19 PM

Jimmy is a church-going Christian. I highly doubt he's not what he claims to be.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:14 PM

My thoughts exactly. Look, if I had to guess (and admit this is pure speculation), it could well be that Kruse has some kind of dirt on Melissa - hence her suspicious silence on the whole matter. Or the whole Krusegate incident may have been some kind of false flag operation - something designed to distract the people from a major scandal that could have permanently discredited paleo... Only the major players know - and they're not sayin'...

1407bd6152d9fdbc239250385159fea1

on August 05, 2012
at 05:09 PM

I can't even grasp what you're attempting to say.

1407bd6152d9fdbc239250385159fea1

on August 05, 2012
at 05:08 PM

Sorry Truth, but Jimmy isn't such a selfless paleo promoter. He realized low-carb was a failing endeavor and henceforth tethered himself to a sturdier boat. Look at some of the products he advertises on his website as sponsors--complete crap.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 04:51 PM

No, I'm not Jimmy, but I feel for the guy. Look at all the haters he's had to endure - and there he is, at the end of the day, still bringing us all the paleo message. He's been quite selfless in all this if you ask me.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 04:25 PM

Why don't you ask Melissa? Yes, the two have a bitter rivalry - not helped by recent events. Hell hath no fury like a woman...well, you know.

279700a1070c65fc144eceaa642dcbc7

(144)

on August 05, 2012
at 02:58 PM

Wait, what? I mean I know the troll is trolling but this is news to me. Anyone wanna fill me in?

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 05, 2012
at 08:23 AM

*'quite successfully'* yeah right :D Just from looking at your account you either are Jimmy Moore or you're his groupie but I liked Denis Mingers presentation she's really cool.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 06:44 AM

Look - Robb Wolf's coming next year (was supposed to come this year as well). If that's not paleo, I frankly don't know what is. Besides, Jimmy's doing low carb paleo himself - and quite successfully, I might add.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on August 05, 2012
at 06:39 AM

Something about denise minger on the low-carb cruise make me laugh as well. Did she have to smuggle carbs on board?

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on August 05, 2012
at 06:37 AM

I believe it's called the Low-carb cruise.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 06:34 AM

What's funny about that?

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on August 05, 2012
at 06:29 AM

Paleo cruise? haha.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 06:20 AM

Why do I think "CD" is Melissa or a Melissa surrogate?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 06:19 AM

Plus if she's not paleo then why would Jimmy have had her on the paleo cruise??

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:55 AM

WAPF/paleo - same difference.

4ecfe8ee47ea62a11be516cd59701a4b

(30)

on August 04, 2012
at 10:26 PM

Since when did Minger or Masterjohn stop being WAPF and start being Paleo?

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4 Answers

6
Fb147a3d3d05c1ae32de58ec5d13fd34

on August 05, 2012
at 07:24 AM

Don't feed the trolls, folks. He's only asking a question like this because he knows about the bad blood between Melissa and Denise and he's trying to start trouble. Other than baiting Melissa about her ex and the woman who's now with him, there's no "higher purpose" to this idiot's questions.

279700a1070c65fc144eceaa642dcbc7

(144)

on August 05, 2012
at 02:58 PM

Wait, what? I mean I know the troll is trolling but this is news to me. Anyone wanna fill me in?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 04:25 PM

Why don't you ask Melissa? Yes, the two have a bitter rivalry - not helped by recent events. Hell hath no fury like a woman...well, you know.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 09, 2012
at 12:23 AM

wtf there is no bad blood between me and Denise. Chris and I parted on perfectly logical terms.

1
5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

on August 05, 2012
at 06:37 AM

Her's and masterjohns were the best. The rest were the typical low-carb jazz.

-2
3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 05, 2012
at 01:51 AM

Since when did Minger become a preeminent authority? She makes statistical arguments using non-valid methods. The China Study (her rebuttal is her only claim to fame) is a rebuttal of the interpreatation of the study, not the actual study itself. She, first, totally missed the point of the study, second used inappropriate methods to "invalidate" it.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 05, 2012
at 11:39 PM

Chauncey, There is no way to explain in this box, but I will give you a couple of points. First, "The China Study" was designed to add to the knowledge base. Second, a tenant of statistical analysis is that there must be a theoretical connection between two populations prior to looking for univariate correlations (which she both lambastes, and then uses for her own defense). You can not just go fishing for statistics, every population set is exemplary at something. For the record I am a meat and dairy consumer, in no way a vegan.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:37 PM

I have no idea about Krusegate, nor do I care about the "soap opera" lives of people in the paleo/ primal blogosphere. As someone who has knowledge of statistics, this post (http://tinyurl.com/29oqy2s) shows that Minger completely misinterpreted "The China Study" findings. I have nothing against Minger personally, I think she's a good blogger, and I read her blog regularly. But her findings were flat out inappropriate and show a massive misunderstanding of how statistics work. So vote me down, fine, then go take an experiment design course

1407bd6152d9fdbc239250385159fea1

on August 05, 2012
at 05:09 PM

I can't even grasp what you're attempting to say.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 06, 2012
at 05:56 AM

Any errors of Minger's were probably intentional. Got to confuse those vegans somehow.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 06:20 AM

Why do I think "CD" is Melissa or a Melissa surrogate?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:14 PM

My thoughts exactly. Look, if I had to guess (and admit this is pure speculation), it could well be that Kruse has some kind of dirt on Melissa - hence her suspicious silence on the whole matter. Or the whole Krusegate incident may have been some kind of false flag operation - something designed to distract the people from a major scandal that could have permanently discredited paleo... Only the major players know - and they're not sayin'...

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on August 06, 2012
at 05:40 PM

CD, I still think I'm missing something. I'm sure "The China Study" was designed to add to the knowledge base. Aren't all studies? Why would we do them otherwise? And yes, statistical analysis should be guided by theory. I think one part of Minger's argument is that sometimes analyses are interpreted so that they're consistent with prevailing theory and findings that run counter to the theory are ignored or glossed over. I'm not sure what you mean by "every population set is exemplary at something."

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on August 05, 2012
at 09:26 PM

CD, can you say more about what you think Minger misinterpreted (e.g., what stats she misunderstands)? Without specifics, it's hard to judge the validity of your argument.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on August 08, 2012
at 05:49 PM

She does unto the data what Campbell did to it to show what CD says about her is true about him. Campbell, probably deliberately, misunderstood this too. This is the emperor-has-no clothes story, and Minger is a more than usually thorough young woman playing the role of the child pointing. I suppose the naked emperor would like to become opaque by complicating the subject. Her talk was too boring to watch, because I've already read her critique. I suppose it is useful if you haven't read it.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 08, 2012
at 08:07 PM

Also to Chauncey's point. Yes the "China Study" definitely had their bias, but so did Minger. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Ultimately the difference was that Minger failed to follow the scientific method, and just went fishing for stats that disprove those presented by Campbell. That's simply not how statistics or science work. Her findings are invalid and inappropriate.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 08, 2012
at 08:02 PM

Chauncey & WildWabbit. 600 characters cannot even start to explain. Any descriptive statistics or experiment design course (typically 300 level courses) would be enough to understand the problems associated with fishing for correlations. The scientific method, while flawed, still ensure proper interpretation of first-order effects. Denise ignored the scientific method. If we looked at a group of basketball players we could infer that height is a good predictor of athletic ability. But it is not if we look at a larger population. Our population was just exemplary at height and athletics.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 08, 2012
at 08:05 PM

Personally I disagree with the findings of the "China Study". Primarily because I don't believe their work created findings, rather their work created a starting point for future work (but no body pays for work without opinions). But also because I find that there are compounding second-order effects that are not properly evaluated in their study (hence the fact that their study is a starting point).

3b0b95dfc6dc5c18e535945f4aab0866

(2392)

on August 08, 2012
at 06:04 PM

CD, this is good discussion. While I have a confirmation bias regarding Minger's results, I never understood how people could claim her methods were faulty without ever actually going into a modicum of detail as to how her methods were bad, much less worse than Campbells. You are providing information that no one else has, and I appreciate that (you got my upvote on your comment.). I wish you and otherwise would elaborate even more.

-3
F725da43a6bd0d023acba7942108048f

on August 08, 2012
at 05:07 PM

Seems that Masterjohn played the field. I don't blame Melissa for being upset.

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