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Bulking Up High Fat/Low carb?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 10, 2013 at 5:22 PM

Hey there, I'm 17 years old, and I'm trying to bulk as leanly as possible. I really started eating primally about 3 weeks ago, limiting my carbs and eating alot more fat, from things like coconut products( A TON) fattier meat, (only grass fed/wild though) nuts, seeds, and avocado. I work out 6 times a week, 2 of which are HIT cardio days, and I'm following a mass gaining program called "Body Beast," it is made by beachbody, who created P90x. I have completed several of their programs, and I think they are extremely high quality workout programs, yet I have never been able to really get my nutrition "right." I feel better eating lower carbs, and I rarely go over 150 grams a day, if that. My question is, can I build muscle and leanly bulk, without adding too much fat, eating a diet of higher fat and low carbs? I currently am taking in 2900 calories 5 days a week, on the days I do harder workouts, and then 2200 calories 2x a week, on one of my cardio days and my rest day. rest days and one cardio day, I eat about 85 grams of carbs, 225 grams of protein, the rest in fat(probably around 110 grams) On days I workout hard, so 5x a week, I eat around 145 grams of carbs, 225 grams of protein, and the rest in fat(so around 160 grams of fat.)

Post workout, I eat around 30 grams of carbs, 10 or so grams of protein, and I've been taking creatine and BCAA prior to working out(I work out in the morning on an empty stomach, so I've just started taking BCAA before I work out, to see how it feels, and if I have any noticeable effects from the Amino acids, I may stop taking them after a week if nothing happens or they make me feel like crap)

Any advice would be awesome, I want to build muscle, and bulk up, but just as leanly as possible, and given my age, I'd like to not have to try something as extreme as the leangains program....

Thanks!

Jameson

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 16, 2013
at 05:30 PM

Definitely don't fear it! You're upping *everything*, and most significantly calories, too - you are going to be growing! But under the duress of weight training, and with the right macros, you'll be promoting more muscle growth than fat. Extra calories and weights are the most important pieces of this puzzle - everything else is extra or a bonus hack.

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 16, 2013
at 05:14 PM

got it.. I just guess I'm a perfectionist, and after working really hard for the past 4 months to cut down to what I am now(at around 11 or 12% bf) I guess I'm a little carbphobic, and wanted to do the BEST possible bulking diet that would get me the least amount of fat... I guess I can try all these other things later, but for now, I'll take your advice and try upping the carbs, I'll know soon enough if it's working or not anyway! thanks for all your help!

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 16, 2013
at 04:34 PM

That's fine. But you can (and imho /should/) have more carbohydrates for bulking - and it will make hitting those ratios easier. For e.g., on an average bulking day, I hit 224g pro (28%), 306g carb (37%), 126g fat (35%). This is me (numbers germane to my size, not yours) *trying* to hit 25/50/25, and ending up somewhat isocaloric. It's **really* difficult to eat a lot in general, and to eat so much real, whole food in carb dense sources is a trial. So really: you should stop worrying about keeping carbs low if you want to bulk up and develop strong, lean muscles.

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 16, 2013
at 03:46 PM

alright.. I'll try it out, though if I aim for 1.5 g/lb of body weight in protein and carbs, that comes out to 188 for each.. and then the rest would be fat? is it okay to be eating 165 grams of fat AND 180 grams of carbs at the same time? because that's what I'd have to eat...

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 16, 2013
at 03:36 PM

In a bulking phase, I can't see what a carb refeed would do. If you are also running or sprinting a lot alongside weight training, possibly then. If I were you, I would just aim for higher calories and sensible macros for now, and save the fancy stuff for the cutting phase -- which frankly, shouldn't be hard: after (basically) stuffing yourself for weeks upon weeks, "cutting" is really just eating a normal diet albeit nutritionally packed and helpful macros - and hopefully still paleo! ;-).

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 16, 2013
at 03:08 PM

yes, it was really helpful! Today I noticed a decline in my progress, training-wise, and I haven't gained any weight(according to my scale, I've lost 1.5 lbs somehow!) in two weeks.... so the progress I was making initially, I think was just because I hadn't adapted to the routine... and this really high fat low carb thing must not be working... And the sheer volume in BodyBeast must give it a higher C requirement Just ONE last thing greymouser, do you think I should have a carb-up day 1 or 2 times a week, and go low carb the rest, or just increase my carbs overall for all my training days?

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 16, 2013
at 12:51 PM

LOL, no problem. I hope you got the info you needed to help yourself!

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 16, 2013
at 12:37 PM

thanks for all your advice though!

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 16, 2013
at 12:36 PM

sorry for posting the same question again, I didn't see your summarizing comment... would it make sense to replace some of my fats with carbs, or some of my protein? I will definitely try increasing my carbs to see how I feel, but I know my body enough to say that 50% carbs is simply too much...

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 15, 2013
at 05:11 PM

I personally don't think carb cycling is a useful tool when bulking. When cutting, it probably is.

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 15, 2013
at 05:11 PM

Here's my summary for bulking: when in your bulking phase, focus on carbohydrates and protein. "Bulk up" a a phrase means muscle - fat is AOK to eat, but is not going to help you build muscle as efficiently as carbohydrates and protein.

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 13, 2013
at 01:57 PM

Okay, Sorry to bug you ONE LAST TIME, but so are you saying that actually I can bulk up high fat and low carb? in your first post you said that I should just eat higher carbs like the program suggests, but now you said what I'm doing is fine.. sorry, I'm just really confused! Also, out of curiosity, do you think there would be any benefit to carb cycling while bulking? I know it's usually for cutting, because it keeps leptin in check, but I was just wondering if a few days a week I would do higher carbs and lower fat, and then switch to high fat low carb for the rest.any help's appreciated

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 13, 2013
at 11:41 AM

That sounds like normal -- and hopefully paleo! -- eating. Honestly, it sounds fine. I don't use protein powders or carb shakes -- just work out , then eat breakfast -- and I get about those ratios for my first meal.

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 12, 2013
at 11:21 PM

Of course! Okay, so I generally have 25 to 30 grams of carbs and around 10 grams of protein immediately post workout, and then I eat a large breakfast about 45 mins to an hour after that, usually containing about 40-50 grams of carbs, around 45 grams of protein, and 20-30 grams of fat... then as the day goes on, I have basically much fewer carbs with my meals, only coming from veggies/nuts/seeds/spices...... So do you think I need to decrease my fats and increase my carbs to include more carbohydrate than this?

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 12, 2013
at 05:07 PM

Oh, one last thing: all this assumes you are lifting or doing something with weights. Just eating carbs and proteins will not render (positive ;-) ) growth benefits.

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 12, 2013
at 05:04 PM

... of both glucose and amino acids. In paleo-land, we can easily get these nutrients from digesting root, tubers, and other veggies as well as animal sourced foods like meats & eggs. When you couple these needs with the "anabolic window" (15 minutes to 4 hours, est. 1 hour after exercise), that's where you get the suggestion of making sure to get more then adequate protein and carbs within 1 hour after exercise -- your body is primed to grow during that window. This is exactly what you want if you want to gain (mostly) muscle mass.

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 12, 2013
at 04:58 PM

I couldn't find any MDA articles that talk about carbohydrates benefit being a *myth* for bodybuilding. Mostly I just found the same MDA rhetoric about keeping total carbohydrate intake lower than SAD (which I agree with). You don't just want to make sure your liver glycogen is "tanked up" when exercising to gain mass (which you should do), but you need to be aware of providing even more total carbs to "tank up" your actual muscle stores of glycogen. The back-and-forth of exercise and repair requires an adequate supply ... (cont)

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 12, 2013
at 04:55 PM

It's not the similar amount you want to gain (~13lbs) but rather the different starting and end weights that will effect your total gram amount of macros. Those macros directly correlate to total caloric consumption, which varies based on current weight (and age, and sex).

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 12, 2013
at 04:28 PM

On Mark Sisson's website, I read a post he wrote about how the necessity of carbs for bodybuilding is a "myth," and gave a bunch of reasons for why... so I thought I didn't need any more carbs than that which could re-fill my glycogen stores and allow me to keep working out at my maximum.......

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 12, 2013
at 04:26 PM

So the guy who runs the website wants to add on 6 kg, or 13.2 lbs... well.. 13 lbs would get me to 130.. is that too low of a goal, or too high? I've heard you can only put on about 1-2 lbs of real muscle per month, under the perfect conditions, and anything extra will just be fat... also, I've always felt better with less carbs... could I eat lower carbs for 6 days of the week, and have a carb refeed on my biggest training day, 1 day a week? Or is what I'm attempting to do, eating low carbs and high fat consistently, plausible? Why are carbs better for bulking?

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 12, 2013
at 03:59 PM

Looks like the site link actually is http://www.paleobulkingcutting.com/ . That writer is 167lbs aiming for 82lbs (76->82kgs stated) (on the macros page), so their goals will be different than yours. Your BMI at the moment is something like 18 - I can see why you want to bulk up.:-) Eating your food at macros suggested is not bad - IMHO it's not that fat is "too high" overall, it's that you probably will find a focus on dense carbohydrates and protein more effective at bulking. I don't think that site is BS at all -- it seems like one (or 2?) person's honest record of what is working for them.

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 12, 2013
at 03:35 PM

I am pretty damn underweight, I'm 119 lbs and 5'7".... and I have a slight bit of a bulge in my lower belly.. just so you have an idea of where I am right now in terms of body comp. Also, I found a website called "Paleobulkingandcutting.com" which is where I got the idea to base my diet off of.. can you tell me if it's BS or not? Finally, I read Mark Sisson's many articles and other blogs online, and there are alot of people who have successfully bulked up and gained substantial muscle mass eating high fat.... and adjusting their carb levels based on performance... what do you think?

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 10, 2013
at 09:25 PM

After watching Pumping Iron, watch the making-of version called "Raw Iron". :-)

86c97b2779feab3c330f5e1c5fea7e25

(2312)

on April 10, 2013
at 08:52 PM

Oh and thanks for the link to "Pumping Iron"...definitely going to watch that. I have a feeling you will have a good answer to my question I'm about to post ha

86c97b2779feab3c330f5e1c5fea7e25

(2312)

on April 10, 2013
at 06:01 PM

And make sure you end a lot of statements with #beastmode

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4 Answers

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1
Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 10, 2013
at 05:53 PM

I checked out "Body Beast", and it looks pretty good - especially for beginning bodybuilders. About a decade ago, I used the original Power 90 from BeachBody and had a lot of success, so they have a special spot in my heart. ;-) Do they teach you proper form and such? I'm mainly using books and DVDs to inspire.

I found the supplemental material (available in less than reputable, dark alleys on the net) for Body Beast "The Book of Beast" (honestly, sounds a bit necronomicon-like). Their nutrition schedule isn't too bad - I'm trying to bulk up right now myself, and what they say jives with what else I've read.

It doesn't sound like you're following their nutrition schedule, though? I don't see a reason you can't paleo-ify their suggestions (i.e. 2 serving protein and starch each instead of 4 serving legumes).

Did you run through the calculations they gave, and you ended up with 2900C? That sounds likely and okay -- if you gave your height, weight, and BF%, we might be able to help you figure that number out.

So, suggestions:

  • Stick to 25/50/25 pro/carb/fat for the build and bulk phases. It sounds like it's going to be difficult for you, but carbohydrates are essential for muscle growth -- much more essential than creatine or BCAAs. If you can at least hit isocaloric (33% each), that'd be a good start. Remember: these ratios are for caloric load, not grams of macros.
  • Eat those carbs! Real, paleo carbohydrate sources include sweet potato, cassava/yuca, taro, true yams, squashes, and more.
  • There is no "rest day for eating" (per their schedule) in the build or bulk phases). I tend to agree.
  • Fat is fine, but don't attempt to bulk on fat. While any food will help you grow, protein and carbohydrates, in concert with heavy lifting, with help to bulk muscles more than fat will.
  • I don't think you need the supplements they recommend. Creatine cycling might help you bulk, but everything else seems iffy. (e.g. Suma? Really?)

Some of the more experienced body builders on the site may have more to say, but as a couple-months-in beginner myself, the Body Beast suggestions don't sound bad at all -- I would stick with them.

Finally, if you haven't, you need to watch "Pumping Iron". Do it.

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 16, 2013
at 12:51 PM

LOL, no problem. I hope you got the info you needed to help yourself!

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 12, 2013
at 04:28 PM

On Mark Sisson's website, I read a post he wrote about how the necessity of carbs for bodybuilding is a "myth," and gave a bunch of reasons for why... so I thought I didn't need any more carbs than that which could re-fill my glycogen stores and allow me to keep working out at my maximum.......

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 12, 2013
at 03:35 PM

I am pretty damn underweight, I'm 119 lbs and 5'7".... and I have a slight bit of a bulge in my lower belly.. just so you have an idea of where I am right now in terms of body comp. Also, I found a website called "Paleobulkingandcutting.com" which is where I got the idea to base my diet off of.. can you tell me if it's BS or not? Finally, I read Mark Sisson's many articles and other blogs online, and there are alot of people who have successfully bulked up and gained substantial muscle mass eating high fat.... and adjusting their carb levels based on performance... what do you think?

86c97b2779feab3c330f5e1c5fea7e25

(2312)

on April 10, 2013
at 06:01 PM

And make sure you end a lot of statements with #beastmode

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 12, 2013
at 03:59 PM

Looks like the site link actually is http://www.paleobulkingcutting.com/ . That writer is 167lbs aiming for 82lbs (76->82kgs stated) (on the macros page), so their goals will be different than yours. Your BMI at the moment is something like 18 - I can see why you want to bulk up.:-) Eating your food at macros suggested is not bad - IMHO it's not that fat is "too high" overall, it's that you probably will find a focus on dense carbohydrates and protein more effective at bulking. I don't think that site is BS at all -- it seems like one (or 2?) person's honest record of what is working for them.

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 10, 2013
at 09:25 PM

After watching Pumping Iron, watch the making-of version called "Raw Iron". :-)

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 12, 2013
at 05:07 PM

Oh, one last thing: all this assumes you are lifting or doing something with weights. Just eating carbs and proteins will not render (positive ;-) ) growth benefits.

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 12, 2013
at 05:04 PM

... of both glucose and amino acids. In paleo-land, we can easily get these nutrients from digesting root, tubers, and other veggies as well as animal sourced foods like meats & eggs. When you couple these needs with the "anabolic window" (15 minutes to 4 hours, est. 1 hour after exercise), that's where you get the suggestion of making sure to get more then adequate protein and carbs within 1 hour after exercise -- your body is primed to grow during that window. This is exactly what you want if you want to gain (mostly) muscle mass.

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 12, 2013
at 04:58 PM

I couldn't find any MDA articles that talk about carbohydrates benefit being a *myth* for bodybuilding. Mostly I just found the same MDA rhetoric about keeping total carbohydrate intake lower than SAD (which I agree with). You don't just want to make sure your liver glycogen is "tanked up" when exercising to gain mass (which you should do), but you need to be aware of providing even more total carbs to "tank up" your actual muscle stores of glycogen. The back-and-forth of exercise and repair requires an adequate supply ... (cont)

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 12, 2013
at 04:26 PM

So the guy who runs the website wants to add on 6 kg, or 13.2 lbs... well.. 13 lbs would get me to 130.. is that too low of a goal, or too high? I've heard you can only put on about 1-2 lbs of real muscle per month, under the perfect conditions, and anything extra will just be fat... also, I've always felt better with less carbs... could I eat lower carbs for 6 days of the week, and have a carb refeed on my biggest training day, 1 day a week? Or is what I'm attempting to do, eating low carbs and high fat consistently, plausible? Why are carbs better for bulking?

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 13, 2013
at 11:41 AM

That sounds like normal -- and hopefully paleo! -- eating. Honestly, it sounds fine. I don't use protein powders or carb shakes -- just work out , then eat breakfast -- and I get about those ratios for my first meal.

86c97b2779feab3c330f5e1c5fea7e25

(2312)

on April 10, 2013
at 08:52 PM

Oh and thanks for the link to "Pumping Iron"...definitely going to watch that. I have a feeling you will have a good answer to my question I'm about to post ha

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 12, 2013
at 11:21 PM

Of course! Okay, so I generally have 25 to 30 grams of carbs and around 10 grams of protein immediately post workout, and then I eat a large breakfast about 45 mins to an hour after that, usually containing about 40-50 grams of carbs, around 45 grams of protein, and 20-30 grams of fat... then as the day goes on, I have basically much fewer carbs with my meals, only coming from veggies/nuts/seeds/spices...... So do you think I need to decrease my fats and increase my carbs to include more carbohydrate than this?

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 15, 2013
at 05:11 PM

Here's my summary for bulking: when in your bulking phase, focus on carbohydrates and protein. "Bulk up" a a phrase means muscle - fat is AOK to eat, but is not going to help you build muscle as efficiently as carbohydrates and protein.

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 12, 2013
at 04:55 PM

It's not the similar amount you want to gain (~13lbs) but rather the different starting and end weights that will effect your total gram amount of macros. Those macros directly correlate to total caloric consumption, which varies based on current weight (and age, and sex).

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 16, 2013
at 12:36 PM

sorry for posting the same question again, I didn't see your summarizing comment... would it make sense to replace some of my fats with carbs, or some of my protein? I will definitely try increasing my carbs to see how I feel, but I know my body enough to say that 50% carbs is simply too much...

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 13, 2013
at 01:57 PM

Okay, Sorry to bug you ONE LAST TIME, but so are you saying that actually I can bulk up high fat and low carb? in your first post you said that I should just eat higher carbs like the program suggests, but now you said what I'm doing is fine.. sorry, I'm just really confused! Also, out of curiosity, do you think there would be any benefit to carb cycling while bulking? I know it's usually for cutting, because it keeps leptin in check, but I was just wondering if a few days a week I would do higher carbs and lower fat, and then switch to high fat low carb for the rest.any help's appreciated

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 16, 2013
at 04:34 PM

That's fine. But you can (and imho /should/) have more carbohydrates for bulking - and it will make hitting those ratios easier. For e.g., on an average bulking day, I hit 224g pro (28%), 306g carb (37%), 126g fat (35%). This is me (numbers germane to my size, not yours) *trying* to hit 25/50/25, and ending up somewhat isocaloric. It's **really* difficult to eat a lot in general, and to eat so much real, whole food in carb dense sources is a trial. So really: you should stop worrying about keeping carbs low if you want to bulk up and develop strong, lean muscles.

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 15, 2013
at 05:11 PM

I personally don't think carb cycling is a useful tool when bulking. When cutting, it probably is.

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 16, 2013
at 03:46 PM

alright.. I'll try it out, though if I aim for 1.5 g/lb of body weight in protein and carbs, that comes out to 188 for each.. and then the rest would be fat? is it okay to be eating 165 grams of fat AND 180 grams of carbs at the same time? because that's what I'd have to eat...

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 16, 2013
at 03:08 PM

yes, it was really helpful! Today I noticed a decline in my progress, training-wise, and I haven't gained any weight(according to my scale, I've lost 1.5 lbs somehow!) in two weeks.... so the progress I was making initially, I think was just because I hadn't adapted to the routine... and this really high fat low carb thing must not be working... And the sheer volume in BodyBeast must give it a higher C requirement Just ONE last thing greymouser, do you think I should have a carb-up day 1 or 2 times a week, and go low carb the rest, or just increase my carbs overall for all my training days?

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 16, 2013
at 05:14 PM

got it.. I just guess I'm a perfectionist, and after working really hard for the past 4 months to cut down to what I am now(at around 11 or 12% bf) I guess I'm a little carbphobic, and wanted to do the BEST possible bulking diet that would get me the least amount of fat... I guess I can try all these other things later, but for now, I'll take your advice and try upping the carbs, I'll know soon enough if it's working or not anyway! thanks for all your help!

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 16, 2013
at 03:36 PM

In a bulking phase, I can't see what a carb refeed would do. If you are also running or sprinting a lot alongside weight training, possibly then. If I were you, I would just aim for higher calories and sensible macros for now, and save the fancy stuff for the cutting phase -- which frankly, shouldn't be hard: after (basically) stuffing yourself for weeks upon weeks, "cutting" is really just eating a normal diet albeit nutritionally packed and helpful macros - and hopefully still paleo! ;-).

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on April 16, 2013
at 12:37 PM

thanks for all your advice though!

Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on April 16, 2013
at 05:30 PM

Definitely don't fear it! You're upping *everything*, and most significantly calories, too - you are going to be growing! But under the duress of weight training, and with the right macros, you'll be promoting more muscle growth than fat. Extra calories and weights are the most important pieces of this puzzle - everything else is extra or a bonus hack.

0
Ed0cb30f40daff568778b776b2a5a81d

(943)

on April 11, 2013
at 06:18 AM

You can also have a look at Andreas Eenfeldt's blog http://www.dietdoctor.com/four-weeks-of-strict-lchf-and-ketone-monitoring where he shares his results on exercise and ketosis. He's way more strict on carbs than you though but it does show that you maintain your physical performance in ketosis.

0
Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on April 10, 2013
at 09:14 PM

Do have a look at http://www.scrawnytobrawny.com/ might give you some ideas.

0
2e1591c76896828077b930de5107f1af

on April 10, 2013
at 08:26 PM

im bulking right now and i have found that a 40C/30P/30F is more optimal for performance, witch would lead to more muscle mass of course. carbs will not make you fat, and certainty not if you workout 6 days a week. unless your over 200 pounds, the protein is quite high btw.

in regards of the program your following, if you just want to look good its fine, but if you really want to have thickness and with , you need heavy weights(that could be at your local gym) you would be able to squat bench, OHP, deadlift ect...

keep calm, press on

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