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Longevity & Low meat consumption

Commented on March 20, 2016
Created June 08, 2015 at 5:46 AM

Hey,

 

I know that longevity is specially connected with daily low kcal intake. Not diet type such as raw foodism, paleo/primal, veganism or something like that.

 

But just want to know what you guys think about this,

 

Mmh, I can't post a link cause I have no 30 posts. Just google it as "longevity tribes" and click eco-friendly-africa blabla website and read all.

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3 Answers

1
56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on March 19, 2016
at 07:28 PM

what are the "nutrients to properly dispose of the fats", Giu? and why would individual patterns matter more than population studies? The Barbaricini live the longest (male) or second longest (females) in the world, yet they eat lard, pork, hard pecorino cheese, and all manners of meats.

D3dafb602c2ef9c6c7a8733696326482

(110)

on March 20, 2016
at 09:58 AM

It could be that the problem with meat from a longevity perspective, is mainly the iron, and then chicken or dairy would be better choices than red meat. However, the meat/iron could be problematic only if the diet lacks fruits, vegetables, legumes (antioxidants), or if it is in a processed or non-fresh form, or fried in processed polyunsaturated rich vegetable oils, like burgers, kebabs etc so frequently are.

I think it´s perfectly possibly to live a long life free of disease even if you are overweight and consume much calories. It really depends on what you ate and how things looks inside of you. You could get fat from eating only McDonald´s menus, but also fat from eating too much nuts and fruits. The RDA for potassium is 4700 mg, and 98% of americans obtain less than this. Choline I believe is another important nutrient to properly deal with fats/excess calories. There´s no RDA, but 2500 kcal human milk has about 570 mg (according to nutritiondata), and very few obtains this much.

Cheese is absent in both potassium and choline, while milk provides plenty of both. Cheese may be healthy in one context but unhealthy in another. I think it contributes to overeating and the obesity epidemic. There may be certain growth factors in dairy products that can actually increase longevity but also lead to cancer. So again, in one context it could be bad, and in another, if the diet is nutritious and rich in anti-cancer nutrients and the cheese is high quality like the type eaten among the population group you mention, it could be beneficial.

I think it is important to look at both population studies and individual patterns, not one or the other. They both offer valuable, but different, information. But we should all try and be humble and openminded, not cherry pick data to fit our hypothesis. It may well be that exercise isn´t so important as many believe. I think about so many of these aged university professors, economists, writers and so on, that spent most of their time behind a desk reading and writing, with a wife or housekeep doing all the cooking and cleaning, maybe taking a daily slow walk and that´s it.

 

Medium avatar

(10601)

on March 20, 2016
at 01:07 PM

My set of grandparents that ate dairy all their lives lived somewhat longer than the grandparents that switched from dairy to hydrogenated soy/palm oil dairy substitutes. But both sets suffered from being overweight, increasingly sedentary and having circulatory diseases. They were not running after animals in their 60's and 70's like the Sardinians. Loss of muscle mass with age is coupled with increased CVD occurrence.

Thigh circumference

While Cordain's Paleo Diet shuns all dairy, I think it misses healthy foods like buttermilk, whole unprocessed cream, cottage cheese (and its rich taurine content), yogurt and the dry cheeses.

Medium avatar

(10601)

on March 19, 2016
at 11:50 PM

I'm looking for all clues, from individual patterns to population studies to any kind of individual physical data. This is the mountainous part of Sardinia.

Sardinian centenarians

Lots of sun, lots of hills. I'd guess an austere, physical, outdoor life in general, remote from cities but with modern sanitation and healthcare available. Chasing animals over the hills would be as good for you as eating them.

I've also been thinking and reading about the people that claimed they had the answer to health and longevity but didn't live long lives (Jim Fixx/Adelle Davis/Robert Atkins/Adolphus Hohensee/Robert Pritikin to name a few). What is distinctive about all these gurus is that they built their schemes without using model populations and working backwards. Sadly their followers perpetuate their bad theories. They excuse their short lives due to extenuating circumstances rather than questioning them.

Only the bad die young

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on March 20, 2016
at 12:35 AM

 what you say, THHQ, plus the local diet is poor in grains and ultra-rich in fresh vegetable foods. If they eat no meat for dinner, they will have five different vegetables. That's it really. Meat and vegetables and animal fats, plus nature outdoors and family.

1
D3dafb602c2ef9c6c7a8733696326482

(110)

on March 17, 2016
at 12:59 PM

Here is a list of 100+ of the longest living people and some info of what they eat:

justpaste . it / longelifediet

I would suggest being openminded, if this is at all possible.

One way is just to count the words most frequently mentioned and pay special attention to words not mentioned.

"vegetables", "chicken", "milk" and "ice cream", "egg", "fruit", "bacon", "chocolate", "coffee" is mentioned a lot of times.

However words like "cheese", "yogurt", "beef", "lamb", "pork", "fish", "nuts", "beans" is not mentioned much. "Yogurt" isn´t mentioned at all.

The general pattern, if there is such a thing, may be a diet higher in animal/dairy fats and relatively low in PUFA and probably not so high in red meat, yet providing animal proteins from chicken, eggs and some dairy products. Additionally it would include vegetables and some fruits. So I think all of this fits with the oxidation theory of aging.

The average "diet" based on these people does not seem to be particularly anti-inflammatory (omega-3 rich), due to the high amount of arachidonic acid in eggs and chicken, yet probably low in seafoods, nor does it appear low in carbohydrates or (natural) sugars.


I see some similarities with human milk composition and the diets promoted by Fred Kummerow (now age 101) and Ray Peat.

Medium avatar

(10601)

on March 17, 2016
at 07:10 PM

Here's Giu's link

http://justpaste.it/longlifediet

It's too bad that there isn't more information other than the dietary anecdotes. When I was trying to dig out information about Ancel Keys' centenarian longevity I knew that he had eaten the Med Diet for 50 years. But I also found out that he was relatively short, muscular, mentally active (writing scientific papers until he was 97), walked incessantly, was slightly overweight, had a close family, stopped smoking early in adulthood, drank socially all his life, and outlived both his parents by 25 years. Adhering to a strict diet was important, but so were all the other factors.

0
Medium avatar

(10601)

on March 17, 2016
at 06:59 PM

I like your recognition of low dietary kcal intake as a key to longevity. Here's some support for that idea:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3919445/

This doesn't have so much to do with diet as it does having a "stay hungry" attitude. Over the years here, there's been a lot of discussion of fasting benefits, especially intermittent fasting. These arguments run counter to another school of thought, usually from HFLC and Atkins proponents, that promotes eating unlimited amounts of fat to increase satiation and stifle hunger. I agree with the fasting point of view for a long and healthy life, though IMO "just stay hungry" is probably sufficient. 

 

D3dafb602c2ef9c6c7a8733696326482

(110)

on March 18, 2016
at 09:56 AM

What about epidemiological data? In Italy for example caloric intake is one of the highest in the world, similar as the US (3000-3500 kcal), but life expectancy is amongst the highest. Also BMI is just 25, compared to 29 in the US. Diabetes prevalence is 5% (same as Japan), compared to 10% in the US.

I think the problem with all these calorie restriction studies on animals, is that they use artificial purified diets, not real world realistic nourishing diets. And then of course a longer life expectancy is not surprising if they consume less of a junk food diet that lacks the nutrients so the body can´t properly use, or store the energy in the right places, leading to for example diabetes/pre-diabetes. Diabetes alone has been associated with 10 year reduction in lifespan for humans.

The explanation then is commonly that americans are too sedentary or something, failing to realize that a poor diet can make one too exhausted to be active and properly connected to other people, while a good diet may give the energy and the desire for the individual to go out meet people, do things, instead of being chained to the television or the internet in their prison like homes etc.

Medium avatar

(10601)

on March 18, 2016
at 01:02 PM

@giu, I believe the problem is mainly sedentarism. When I say "low dietary intake" it is relative to the level of activity. For instance, on any given day I eat 2500 kcal. If I was not active I would either be obese again, or I would have to reduce my eating to 1500 kcal. 

I'm not sure that "good diet" is all of it. The more active you are, the more kcals you need, and if you're not stressed to eat minimums it's not hard to get daily minimum nutritional requirements. Beyond that kcals are just fuel. I say this because the Med Diet uses copious amounts of refined grains. Everyone from Paleos to Atkins shuns them, but in Italy/France/Crete eating grains does not engender obesity, harm health or shorten lifetimes. Grains are problematic for people who are obese and borderline diabetic, not for people who are at 25 BMI.

I recently read a piece by Anthony Colpo. He was bemoaning the obesity rates in Australia, which are similar to the US. He did not observe in the statistics that Australians had shifted to eating sugary junk food. He blamed the rise in obesity completely on inactivity from staring at computers and TV all day. Like Americans, Australians aren't surfers, crack swimmers, and Crocodile Dundees anymore. They're wimps.

Colpo puts it this way:

These days, people have become so adverse to the concept of self-responsibility that when you tell them they got fat because they ate too much and/or did too little physical activity, they start carrying on like you just called them a child molester. Yep, Westerners have become such a bunch of spoilt, petulant soft-cocks that they'll blame anything and everything except themselves for their overweight: Evil sugar, evil carbs, metabolic defects, under-active thyroids, slow metabolisms, and the latest fashionable pathetic excuse, gut bacteria.

The Australian Paradox

D3dafb602c2ef9c6c7a8733696326482

(110)

on March 19, 2016
at 07:11 AM

I don´t know about the argument of Australian eating healthier is true though, when I look at the statistics it seems pretty unhealthy, measured against the true paleo diet anyway.

And obesity/BMI and sugar is not the whole picture. In China there are now estimated 500 million pre-diabetics, a higher prevalence than in the US, yet average BMI is just 23, up from 22 a decade ago, and they eat very little sugar, just 1-2 tbsp per capita, but of course caloric intake is increasing and already too high. But the diet lacks the nutrients to properly dispose of the fats, so it ends up in the wrong places, like in liver, around organs etc, and this seems to cause the diabetes/pre-diabetes in the Chinese.

I would like to make the point of addictive foods though. I think in particular that a high sodium to potassium ratio cause food addictions and hence overeating. Sodium is addictive, potassium works opposite. This has been shown in many small paleo diet studies: if participants are only fed lean meat, fruits, vegetables, potatoes/tubers, and if fat, especially saturated fat, is reduced, then people just eat less food, lose weight, reverse diseases like diabetes etc. And they would do that even if they spend all day watching television. As long as they only can eat those foods.

A recent study showed this in children as well. If they were given potatoes (high potassium) instead of pasta or rice with the meal, they consumed 30-40% less calories. Children usually dislike potatoes, yet love french fries, because of the fat and the salt. Fat, sugar and honey is also addictive of course, fruits less so, nuts less so. And avocados probably not at all due to the high potassium. It´s just hard to eat many avocados. Try it!

One thing that can be read out of the dietary habits of these supercentenarians is that they likely consumed good amounts of potassium due to the words "vegetables", "milk", "fruits", "potatoes", "ice cream", being mentioned so many times, while not a ton of low potassium high sodium foods like cheese. This could prevent overeating so it´s possible they also consumed less calories and therefore lived longer.

So my point is that instead of trying to restrict calories and/or force yourself to physical activity, it is better to restrict some dietary items and include more of others like vegetables and potatoes. If you feel hungry when you shouldn´t, the best thing is probably to ditch salt and fat and have as many boiled potatoes as you like, or if you eat rice, then mix in as many vegetables as you can and don´t add any salt.

I think the paleo 2.0 was invented in part by people that disliked potassium rich foods, but loved things like cheese, bacon, grains and butter, so they tried to find some sort of justification for eating their favorite foods, anything from fruits being dangerous due to the fructose, or food intolerances, or grains being "benign" in moderate quantities if it is from refined rice or non-gluten grains, or cheese being healthy, salt being good for you, and so on. So somehow they think they eat an ancestral or paleo like diet, when in fact it´s just the old Atkins diet.

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