9

votes

Can cutting carbohydrates from your diet make you live longer?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created November 20, 2011 at 11:00 AM

Professor Cynthia Kenyon, whom many experts believe should win the Nobel Prize for her research into ageing, has discovered that the carbohydrates we eat ??? from bananas and potatoes to bread, pasta, biscuits and cakes ??? directly affect two key genes that govern youthfulness and longevity.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1323758/Can-cutting-Carbohydrates-diet-make-live-longer.html

We have Paul Jaminet talking about "Safe Starches" and we have Dr Ron Rosedale saying there are no safe starches in the posting by Jimmy Moore and their back and forth on PH. http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/more-safe-starches-stuff-and-why-ive-decided-not-to-test-them-on-myself/12068

Are you willing to cut back your non veggie carb intake and sugar intake to almost zero if you knew you would live a long life free of disease?

Professor Kenyon, based upon her research has done just that in her own life.

Carbo??hydrates, and especially refined ones like sugar, make you produce lots of extra insulin. I???ve been keeping my intake really low ever since I discovered this.
I???ve cut out all starch such as potatoes, noodles, rice, bread and pasta. Instead I have salads, but no sweet dressing, lots of olive oil and nuts, tons of green vegetables along with cheese, chicken and eggs.

How about you? Is giving up some of your short term pleasures in food worth it to have a long, healthy life?

Medium avatar

(10611)

on April 24, 2014
at 01:58 PM

No Evelyn has it right. Sedentary behavior favors fat metabolism. If you act like you're old at 25 eat fat. If you act like Jack Lalanne at 95 eat fruit smoothies.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on April 24, 2014
at 01:52 PM

Indubitably sedentary behavior plays a part, because as you shut down being active you lose the most effective metabolic tool for carbs. You can eat carbs at any age if you ACT young. If you choose to sit all day, avoid carbs and eat fat, like sick bedridden people who have no choice in the matter.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on April 24, 2014
at 01:44 PM

I love it! Carbsane 101.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on April 24, 2014
at 01:40 PM

Living in relative isolation has relatively negative effects on longevity no matter what diet is eaten, especially susceptibility to viral attack.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on April 24, 2014
at 01:37 PM

Love those mangoes. Would be good with some duck.

757daf653498f7f15dc13f1f833f0a10

(0)

on April 24, 2014
at 01:21 PM

"And as we age, what happens to RQ? It goes down ... we become fat burners. The defect is in our carbohydrate metabolism, forcing us to burn more fat. This is almost definitely due to insulin resistance. So why would you want to manipulate your metabolism to that of an old, fat person?" You have it backwards - it is not the elimination or reduction of carbohydrates that causes insulin resistance - it is an excess of carbohydrates that does this. So, LCD do not, therefore, give people the metabolism of an old, fat person.

Fb67dc30cead043d1d13ea503a3044dc

(3280)

on December 23, 2011
at 03:41 AM

+1 for open casket!

Cf4576cbcc44fc7f2294135609bce9e5

(3125)

on December 23, 2011
at 01:44 AM

i have no reason to belive that a hormone made of protein is not digested in the stomach and is of no use or concequense to IGF-1 activation. i dont care how much of this hormone is in milk, its just added protein. if it were a steriodial hormone modeled after cholesterol then i would have absorbtion concerns.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 22, 2011
at 04:03 PM

Well, that's true. If you're not appreciated but regarded as a walking, wasting bag of ailments who cannot kick the bucket soon enough, what would you do? It's a cultural thang, that owes a lot to Asian customs ... I believe.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on November 21, 2011
at 10:52 PM

please note that these are probably a bit high in food reward

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on November 21, 2011
at 10:50 PM

I have had chocolate covered potato chips, and they are good, but the potato is a bit thin so they are delicate and too chocolatey. I prefer putting rice krispies in my chocolate for a better effect.

E95216c62a14d21c371fcbf2fed8469b

(1867)

on November 21, 2011
at 09:18 PM

I can attest to the goodness that is red meat. I like Jillian Michaels but I cringe when she talks about limiting red meat. I had a piece of steak this morning with some tomatoes and still not really hungry.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 21, 2011
at 06:50 PM

I'm not arguing either really, but @ Namby I can find a lot of cheeses at my local market (not even TJ's or WF) that will specify "milk from rBGH free cows...(goes on to say "the FDA has found no link between blah blah blah). @ Cliff, I do still have to look for it though. I would still say the majority sold in your average supermarket contains it, but I dont live CA were the population is a bit more health conscious either. Likely demographics is the factor.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 21, 2011
at 06:45 PM

I still feel that we miss the point about social structure as the true common denominator in the long lived societies. The elderly are not outcasts. They are celebrated and revered. When you are 100 years old do you WANT to live to be 101? Do you still have purpose in life?

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 21, 2011
at 03:26 PM

Dr Kruse talks a lot about IGF-1 all across his blog. http://jackkruse.com/?s=igf This is a search for all instances of mention of IGF-1. Use Ctl F and enter IGF-1 to find mentions in each blog.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 21, 2011
at 01:42 PM

Not true namby, most conventional milk is rBGH free, I couldn;t even get rBGH milk if I wanted it(never seen it in any stores)

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 21, 2011
at 01:41 PM

I don't get this IGF-1 business, sounds like vegan propaganda. Is it abnormally elevated IGF-1 due to industrial factors or are foods that raise IGF-1 dangerous?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 21, 2011
at 01:37 PM

Most milk in the store now a days doesn't contain Rbgh

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 21, 2011
at 11:11 AM

I'm intrigued by this IGF-1. It is an insulin sensitizer and improves glycemic control. But it supposedly causes cancer.

7c5b64bdf359e7cdcb0ee15629abdaa9

(50)

on November 21, 2011
at 09:04 AM

Same here Rose, for what it's worth. Massive difference between NO plant matter and VLC (for me). I don't even seem to handle seasonings very well. Even herbs and spices etc give me unbearable cravings which I (usually) end up giving in to. They also make me bloat, burp and other unpleasant unmentionables for the next 5-10 hours :( My moods are all over the place too every time I try to introduce plants back into my life; depression, debilitating anxiety and more. So yeah, VLC is VERY different from ZC for me.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 21, 2011
at 05:40 AM

Wasn't yogurt supposed to be their secret to longevity? I mean about them Siberians? Oh, that was just Danon's commercial. Never mind.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 21, 2011
at 05:37 AM

Actually that's true, unless their dairy has bovine growth hormone, they would be free of IGF-1. Ditto for those milk tribes of Africa. I don't think they suffer from cancer much anyway, despite their milk consumption. It's where the dairy industry has taken hold, in mass scale. Like the U.S., Europe, and even Asia where cows are bred as "milk pumps."

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 21, 2011
at 03:59 AM

Kenyon: "I’ve cut out all starch such as potatoes, noodles, rice, bread and pasta. Instead I have salads, but no sweet dressing, lots of olive oil and nuts, tons of green vegetables along with cheese, chicken and eggs." What Kenyon fails to see is that cheese is contaminated with rBGH, which raises IGF-1. She may know her biochemistry but not much practical nutrition. All dairy produced in the U.S. is rBGH; European cheese is okay and not contaminated. She may know her biochemistry but I wouldn't take her nutrition advice.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 21, 2011
at 02:46 AM

While it may not be what he finds ideal in ratio it is a huge change in gross total which I feel is still quite relevant if you are going to bother checking the numbers, which I dont.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 21, 2011
at 02:33 AM

Siberian peoples don't all do dairy and the saami adopted it recently

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on November 21, 2011
at 01:47 AM

Yeah, along the same lines as Matthew and Rose: oxygen keeps us alive, right, but what's that thing called that we're always trying to avoid? Oh yeah: oxidation.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:59 PM

Kenyon says Most exciting are the new links to human longevity. For example, impaired IGF-1 receptor activity has been linked to centenarianism in Ashkenazi Jews, and FOXO DNA variants have been linked to exceptional longevity in Hawaiians of Japanese descent, Californians, New Englanders, Germans, Italians, Ashkenazi Jews and the Chinese. (Though how these FOXO variants affect gene activity, a key question, has not been determined.) http://kenyonlab.ucsf.edu/html/history.html last paragraph

Medium avatar

(10611)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:19 PM

Needham bars have potato filling (kind of like fondant) dipped in dark chocolate.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 20, 2011
at 10:40 PM

Going from 85% sdLDL to 50% of total LDL is only a reduction of 15% even though the total LDL decreased. Dr Davis is looking for 85 to 90% large bouyant LDL of the total LDL. 50% still causes plaque build up. Why delay the reduction in sdLDL by being 6/7th paleo?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 20, 2011
at 10:29 PM

Good link. So in that persons case going six days looks like it made pretty profound effect, just not perfect. Thats pretty good, but looks like I may have to rethink my cheat day at some point. I started this without any markers of disease though so I'm a bit more lenient I guess.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 20, 2011
at 10:28 PM

Maybe this is too simplistic, but to me, ethnographic evidence in humans seems stronger evidence than gene manipulation in worms.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 20, 2011
at 09:11 PM

Yes, I'm aware there're scattered tribes. But they seem to be LC because of dairy: the dinkas, e.g. If so, their IGF-1 would be elevated. This will neutralize whatever benefit of VLC they accrue by promoting cancer and aging. So the milk tribes don't really count, including the Masais. And we're left with them Eskimos again. They live pretty brutal lives in harsh environments. So their live could be cut short by trauma, low temperature, starvation, etc. Again, no evidence of VLC longevity via lowered insulin level.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 20, 2011
at 08:27 PM

Nice link! I hadn't seen that article.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 20, 2011
at 08:10 PM

@Namby You can ask her yourself. She has her own lab at UCSF http://kenyonlab.ucsf.edu/html/history.html There is a tab for non scientists and an overview of the history of long lived mutants that explains her work for scientists.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 20, 2011
at 08:09 PM

@Namby You can ask her yourself. She has her own lab at UCSF kenyonlab.ucsf.edu There is a tab for non scientists and an overview of the history of long lived mutants that explains her work for scientists.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 20, 2011
at 07:57 PM

@Namby You can ask her yourself. She has her own lab at UCSF http://kenyonlab.ucsf.edu/ There is a tab for non scientists that explains her work.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 20, 2011
at 07:28 PM

@JayJay See this posting by Dr Davis regarding 6 days paleo/primal http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/2011/11/friday-is-my-bad-day.html

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 20, 2011
at 07:12 PM

The Maasai only eat low-carb as young men. And there are about 20 circumpolar tribes, some of them little-known and isolated, that eat low-carb. They generally have HIGHER metabolic rates.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on November 20, 2011
at 07:06 PM

Surely another thing these peoples all have in common is that they avoid the big three, right? Or perhaps that just goes without saying.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:55 PM

LOL...good analogy

559a1bf85bfe38a0fbbf56377c7278b4

(1548)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:52 PM

Exactly, the cortisol zone is horrible. Some people don't seem to have this problem but cortisol limits how low carb I can go.

559a1bf85bfe38a0fbbf56377c7278b4

(1548)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:49 PM

It does sound funny now I look at it ... but then, if you can get chocolate-covered bacon, maybe it would work ...

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:38 PM

Yep, I know that many people consider leafy greens and such to be negligible in terms of carb count. I sure did before I talked myself into trying ZC. After all this time, though, I'm not sure if the huge difference I experienced (beneficial) is due to the tiny reduction in carb count (from 20g to probably <2g, most days), or if for some of us, certain plant compounds are Just No Good, and that's where the benefit comes from. Either way, the difference in results is pretty big for some of us.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 20, 2011
at 05:31 PM

@Rose, yeah the ZC'ers are pretty much pure carnivores. But there is not much difference eating non-starchy veggies. Atkins described these as "biologically zero" carbs.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:23 PM

Rose, I guess like you said it may depend on people's experience. When I did VLC the only plant matter I ate was spinach, and I kind of it saw it more as fiber than "carbs". It just seemed pretty inconsequential in terms of "carbs", but I can see where other people may have had different experiences.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:21 PM

Oxygen, can't live with it, can't live without it :)

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:10 PM

Funny. And yet, oxygen is an interesting analogy. Our atmosphere averages 21% oxygen at sea level, which turns out to be about perfect for aerobic species (go figure). Breathing elevated concentrations can result in oxygen toxicity, which -- fascinatingly -- can take different forms, depending on the type of exposure.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:09 PM

Great question. Lots of wonderful answers as well!

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:08 PM

"various" diet programs do count veggie carbs in their carb counts. Some programs are simplified with lists of "carb" foods, and this list can include grains, fruits and some vegetables.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:03 PM

wait, firestorm, is that potatoes fried, and then dipped, then rolled in crumbs and fried in lard in coconut oil? Now I am intrigued.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:03 PM

And much discussion on this topic in http://paleohacks.com/questions/78343/is-lowered-t3-resulting-from-a-low-carb-diet-problematic

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:03 PM

Thanks, P2. I realize now that my comment sounded a bit snarky; I didn't mean it that way. But many people call a VLC diet "zero" carb, and I've experienced them as quite different (ZC not having salad or veggies, starchy or not, in it).

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:03 PM

Also see: What’s the current consensus re: carbohydrates and longevity? http://paleohacks.com/questions/61071/whats-the-current-consensus-re-carbohydrates-and-longevity

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 20, 2011
at 04:59 PM

Rose, the original question asked "Are you willing to cut back your non veggie carb intake and sugar intake to almost zero..." so I was addressing the general idea. Also, for various reasons, various diet programs and people don't count salads and green leafy vegetables in their carb counts. I will edit my answer to say "near zero" to not avoid confusion though.

324bf94d3d6f9322d6e4dba4becfaab1

on November 20, 2011
at 04:34 PM

Other than a few potatoes once or twice I week I only steak and sausage. I'll come back in 100 years a let you guys know how that turned out... maybe...

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on November 20, 2011
at 04:31 PM

How did "zero carb" enter this discussion? Cynthia Kenyon herself follows a low-carb diet, not a zero-carb diet. She eats salads and vegetables.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on November 20, 2011
at 04:31 PM

How did "zero carb" enter this discussion? Cynthia Kenyon herself follows a low-carb diet, not a zero-carb diet. See the last few paragraphs here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1323758/Can-cutting-Carbohydrates-diet-make-live-longer.html

Ca1150430b1904659742ce2cad621c7d

(12540)

on November 20, 2011
at 01:18 PM

Dark chocolate-covered potato chips? (Home-made, of course, and fried in lard and coconut oil!)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 20, 2011
at 01:11 PM

The Fruit, Pork and Rum Diet!

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 20, 2011
at 01:10 PM

Your last sentence reads funny and made me chuckle as I imagined some dessert made of potatoes and dark chocolate!

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 20, 2011
at 01:07 PM

Yes Matthew, and don't forget that dihydro monoxide. Scary stuff!

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 20, 2011
at 01:01 PM

I have heard that oxygen is very toxic, I'm going to stop breathing right now...

Ec7cb2a7a68655954a01f03e95be1383

(1453)

on November 20, 2011
at 12:11 PM

indeed. the question is which carb sources they used in these experiments. Refined carbs are completely different to carbs from whole foods, especially tubers.

Ec7cb2a7a68655954a01f03e95be1383

(1453)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:49 AM

indeed. the question is which carb sources they used in these experiments. Refined carbs are completely different to carbs from whole foods, especially sweet tubers.

F3583667d653163c121640a015ffa93a

(784)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:42 AM

I wonder what she has against red meat? They don't mention that in the article.

27e79ef3308bb5f2d7bd04ee7eea7b79

(2038)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:16 AM

+1 for making me laugh at 6 a.m.

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17 Answers

10
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 20, 2011
at 06:54 PM

There are no real long-term studies on this, but thankfully there are dozens of Arctic tribes that ate a low-carb high-fat diet. We have the Inuit, Saami, Athabaskans, Eveny, Nenets, Itelmen, and Koryak peoples for example. It's a diverse collection of people if geographically distant, but similar environments.

Were they healthy historically? Yes, but there is no evidence they are especially long-lived and early explorers often noted that the Inuit seemed to age quite quickly. There are some arctic areas in Russia with some notable longevity, but health is similar there to other "blue zones" where a high-carb diet is eaten. What these peoples do have in common is use of traditional medicines passed down through the generations.

This ethnographic evidence makes me seriously question high-fat low-carb per se as some sort of longevity secret.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on November 20, 2011
at 07:06 PM

Surely another thing these peoples all have in common is that they avoid the big three, right? Or perhaps that just goes without saying.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 20, 2011
at 10:28 PM

Maybe this is too simplistic, but to me, ethnographic evidence in humans seems stronger evidence than gene manipulation in worms.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 21, 2011
at 05:40 AM

Wasn't yogurt supposed to be their secret to longevity? I mean about them Siberians? Oh, that was just Danon's commercial. Never mind.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 21, 2011
at 06:45 PM

I still feel that we miss the point about social structure as the true common denominator in the long lived societies. The elderly are not outcasts. They are celebrated and revered. When you are 100 years old do you WANT to live to be 101? Do you still have purpose in life?

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 22, 2011
at 04:03 PM

Well, that's true. If you're not appreciated but regarded as a walking, wasting bag of ailments who cannot kick the bucket soon enough, what would you do? It's a cultural thang, that owes a lot to Asian customs ... I believe.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on April 24, 2014
at 01:40 PM

Living in relative isolation has relatively negative effects on longevity no matter what diet is eaten, especially susceptibility to viral attack.

10
E95216c62a14d21c371fcbf2fed8469b

(1867)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:13 AM

No I would not do this. I'm having cannoli cake for my birthday today and intend to enjoy it. I know that I have a certain level of control but not much. God is the pilot. I'm the copilot. Almost all of my first degree relations have lived above 80, my maternal grandpa lived to 103 eating fruit and pork and drinking rum. He died from a fall. The old coot was picking mangoes. So maybe that's how carbs will kill me.

27e79ef3308bb5f2d7bd04ee7eea7b79

(2038)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:16 AM

+1 for making me laugh at 6 a.m.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 20, 2011
at 01:11 PM

The Fruit, Pork and Rum Diet!

F3583667d653163c121640a015ffa93a

(784)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:42 AM

I wonder what she has against red meat? They don't mention that in the article.

E95216c62a14d21c371fcbf2fed8469b

(1867)

on November 21, 2011
at 09:18 PM

I can attest to the goodness that is red meat. I like Jillian Michaels but I cringe when she talks about limiting red meat. I had a piece of steak this morning with some tomatoes and still not really hungry.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on April 24, 2014
at 01:37 PM

Love those mangoes. Would be good with some duck.

6
E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:39 AM

Too bad the theory doesn't seem to work in practice considering that the people who live the longest all eat high carb diets for the most part.

How do we know carbohydrates aren't effecting these genes in a beneficial way?

Do experiments on round worms have any biological significance for humans?

Ec7cb2a7a68655954a01f03e95be1383

(1453)

on November 20, 2011
at 12:11 PM

indeed. the question is which carb sources they used in these experiments. Refined carbs are completely different to carbs from whole foods, especially tubers.

Ec7cb2a7a68655954a01f03e95be1383

(1453)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:49 AM

indeed. the question is which carb sources they used in these experiments. Refined carbs are completely different to carbs from whole foods, especially sweet tubers.

5
24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 20, 2011
at 01:41 PM

The elevated insulin levels associated with aging are the compensatory response to insulin resistance. I'm going to hedge my bets on a diet that optimizes my body's secretion of, and sensitivity towards, insulin.

For those that don't know my background, I lost around 100 lbs doing VLC with some planned cheats in there -- started sometime Summer 2007 and lost most of it by Spring 2008. When I plateaued out in weight I started to look into the science to assure myself that my way of eating was going to be healthy for the long haul which is when I was introduced to all the LC gurus out there and such circa Spring 2009. Early on I was struck by the number of people who seemed to want to be T1 diabetics! The goal is the lowest insulin possible and the highest level of free fatty acids possible.

Looking into what occurs metabolically as we age, it now appears that many of these same people are trying to have the metabolism of an old, fat person. Seriously, there's all this commotion in the mitochondrial dysfunction debate over how the pre and post obese are burning carbs so not as much fat, and this is supposedly why they eventually become obese or regain to become obese. But once they are obese, well, then they are fat burners! And as we age, what happens to RQ? It goes down ... we become fat burners. The defect is in our carbohydrate metabolism, forcing us to burn more fat. This is almost definitely due to insulin resistance. So why would you want to manipulate your metabolism to that of an old, fat person? I've yet to see any evidence that fat burns cleaner than carbs, indeed I think it's probably the other way around (I differ with Paul Jaminet on this aspect).

Since I'm a woman heading rapidly towards 50, the first study I blogged on HERE has really stuck with me. The longest living group of women had RQ's resembling the "adults" -- e.g. higher RQ -- though age and RQ are negatively correlated in the whole group.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on April 24, 2014
at 01:52 PM

Indubitably sedentary behavior plays a part, because as you shut down being active you lose the most effective metabolic tool for carbs. You can eat carbs at any age if you ACT young. If you choose to sit all day, avoid carbs and eat fat, like sick bedridden people who have no choice in the matter.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on April 24, 2014
at 01:44 PM

I love it! Carbsane 101.

757daf653498f7f15dc13f1f833f0a10

(0)

on April 24, 2014
at 01:21 PM

"And as we age, what happens to RQ? It goes down ... we become fat burners. The defect is in our carbohydrate metabolism, forcing us to burn more fat. This is almost definitely due to insulin resistance. So why would you want to manipulate your metabolism to that of an old, fat person?" You have it backwards - it is not the elimination or reduction of carbohydrates that causes insulin resistance - it is an excess of carbohydrates that does this. So, LCD do not, therefore, give people the metabolism of an old, fat person.

3
Medium avatar

(3259)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:58 AM

I saw Cynthia Kenyon's TED Talk the other day. She didn't mention the carb connection, but her identification of insulin's role in ageing made me wonder. Check it out.

2
Cf4576cbcc44fc7f2294135609bce9e5

on December 23, 2011
at 02:07 AM

if one subscribes to the fact that insulin ages us i would give up all carbohydrates that trigger insulin in favor of calories that do not trigger insulin. i can, i have , and i will continue to do so because it is easy, doesnt require thought. and will make you feel great anyway. i have no idea what my HGBA1C was befor and i have no intention of measuring it after my diet change. As for blood tests, im not interested in a snap shot of lipid, sugar or whatever being transported by blood into my cells or from my cells to somewhere else. i can get naked and look into a mirror to measure my health. I am an old man, but if i see youth and vigor in the mirror im not going to let some expert tell me low carbs are not a cure for the disease we call ageing. i have had a life time of fugly experts telling me how to live. when i die im going for the open casket.

Fb67dc30cead043d1d13ea503a3044dc

(3280)

on December 23, 2011
at 03:41 AM

+1 for open casket!

2
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 20, 2011
at 04:47 PM

No, I guess I'm not. I've already given up potatoes--1/4 sweet potato about once per month is my quota--and grains and refined sugars.

But I still eat honey (local) and water kefir and yogurt and non-starchy veggie carbs like summer squash, broccoli, asparagus and even rutabagas. I love my grapefruit and occasional dates, figs, fresh cranberries.

At this level, I have great quality of life and it's worth it--if I have to go to none, it's not worth it because I'd spend every day walking in fear of accidentally ingesting a couple grams of stray carbs.

Besides, let's get real here. I made it to 64 eating all the no-nos and as soon as I stopped eating them I felt fabulous and have lost weight. I can believe staying off the industrial foods could add a little time to my life, but I don't believe I have to give up whole and traditional foods like the ones I mentioned above.

EDIT: After drinking 2 mugs of coffee with heavy cream and local honey, My BP is 132/74, pulse 75 and BG is 101. How much should I sacrifice in hopes of even better numbers? Answer: I won't.

2
7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 20, 2011
at 04:04 PM

I wouldn???t cut it back to near zero because I know that doesn???t work for me, but the thing is it is pretty silly to go from ???reduced insulin in worms??? to ???near zero carbohydrates in humans???. It is always kind of funny to see one simple mechanism (insulin-sensitive gene in worms) translated to a new lifestyle for humans (near zero carb diet).

Insulin and carbs are not synonymous, and insulin has more than one function and is part of a huge symphony of biochemical activity that goes on in the human body - a symphony that we likely are missing a lot of understanding. Leptin was just discovered a short time ago. What else is going on that we have no knowledge of. Somebody thought anabolic steroids were a really good idea at one point.

I also believe the longevity studies in mice based upon reduced calories showed that there was very little benefit to longevity if the protocol was started as an adult.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:38 PM

Yep, I know that many people consider leafy greens and such to be negligible in terms of carb count. I sure did before I talked myself into trying ZC. After all this time, though, I'm not sure if the huge difference I experienced (beneficial) is due to the tiny reduction in carb count (from 20g to probably <2g, most days), or if for some of us, certain plant compounds are Just No Good, and that's where the benefit comes from. Either way, the difference in results is pretty big for some of us.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on November 20, 2011
at 04:31 PM

How did "zero carb" enter this discussion? Cynthia Kenyon herself follows a low-carb diet, not a zero-carb diet. She eats salads and vegetables.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:08 PM

"various" diet programs do count veggie carbs in their carb counts. Some programs are simplified with lists of "carb" foods, and this list can include grains, fruits and some vegetables.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 20, 2011
at 05:31 PM

@Rose, yeah the ZC'ers are pretty much pure carnivores. But there is not much difference eating non-starchy veggies. Atkins described these as "biologically zero" carbs.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:23 PM

Rose, I guess like you said it may depend on people's experience. When I did VLC the only plant matter I ate was spinach, and I kind of it saw it more as fiber than "carbs". It just seemed pretty inconsequential in terms of "carbs", but I can see where other people may have had different experiences.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 20, 2011
at 04:59 PM

Rose, the original question asked "Are you willing to cut back your non veggie carb intake and sugar intake to almost zero..." so I was addressing the general idea. Also, for various reasons, various diet programs and people don't count salads and green leafy vegetables in their carb counts. I will edit my answer to say "near zero" to not avoid confusion though.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on November 20, 2011
at 04:31 PM

How did "zero carb" enter this discussion? Cynthia Kenyon herself follows a low-carb diet, not a zero-carb diet. See the last few paragraphs here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1323758/Can-cutting-Carbohydrates-diet-make-live-longer.html

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:03 PM

Thanks, P2. I realize now that my comment sounded a bit snarky; I didn't mean it that way. But many people call a VLC diet "zero" carb, and I've experienced them as quite different (ZC not having salad or veggies, starchy or not, in it).

7c5b64bdf359e7cdcb0ee15629abdaa9

(50)

on November 21, 2011
at 09:04 AM

Same here Rose, for what it's worth. Massive difference between NO plant matter and VLC (for me). I don't even seem to handle seasonings very well. Even herbs and spices etc give me unbearable cravings which I (usually) end up giving in to. They also make me bloat, burp and other unpleasant unmentionables for the next 5-10 hours :( My moods are all over the place too every time I try to introduce plants back into my life; depression, debilitating anxiety and more. So yeah, VLC is VERY different from ZC for me.

2
7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 20, 2011
at 01:57 PM

I'm going for the "it's not all or nothing" approach ... essentially a "quality, not quantity" kind of thing. Sounds like that's what the Drs Eades do (given Mike Eades' reports of croissants in Paris at AHS11).

1
1145a340276b66b7765d7808128062ea

(80)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:06 PM

I have a couple of comments

1) One large point of non-equivalence between nematodes (C. Elegans) and humans is the dauer state - almost akin to hibernation - where worms experience reduced metabolic activity, and can survive for years. Dr. Kenyon's work deals with this pathway, but just the very option of going into a dauer state is not available to humans.

2)If insulin handling is an issue, clearly Dr. Kenyon's dietary choices are very good. Is a close second option to intermittently fast? There, intermittent fasting is supposed to help the body regain insulin sensitivity by going into a temporary starvation state. The body may sensitive itself to insulin since it is not seeing much insulin.

3)I wish we had more brown fat!!!!

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 21, 2011
at 03:59 AM

Kenyon: "I’ve cut out all starch such as potatoes, noodles, rice, bread and pasta. Instead I have salads, but no sweet dressing, lots of olive oil and nuts, tons of green vegetables along with cheese, chicken and eggs." What Kenyon fails to see is that cheese is contaminated with rBGH, which raises IGF-1. She may know her biochemistry but not much practical nutrition. All dairy produced in the U.S. is rBGH; European cheese is okay and not contaminated. She may know her biochemistry but I wouldn't take her nutrition advice.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 21, 2011
at 06:50 PM

I'm not arguing either really, but @ Namby I can find a lot of cheeses at my local market (not even TJ's or WF) that will specify "milk from rBGH free cows...(goes on to say "the FDA has found no link between blah blah blah). @ Cliff, I do still have to look for it though. I would still say the majority sold in your average supermarket contains it, but I dont live CA were the population is a bit more health conscious either. Likely demographics is the factor.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 21, 2011
at 01:42 PM

Not true namby, most conventional milk is rBGH free, I couldn;t even get rBGH milk if I wanted it(never seen it in any stores)

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:59 PM

Kenyon says Most exciting are the new links to human longevity. For example, impaired IGF-1 receptor activity has been linked to centenarianism in Ashkenazi Jews, and FOXO DNA variants have been linked to exceptional longevity in Hawaiians of Japanese descent, Californians, New Englanders, Germans, Italians, Ashkenazi Jews and the Chinese. (Though how these FOXO variants affect gene activity, a key question, has not been determined.) http://kenyonlab.ucsf.edu/html/history.html last paragraph

Cf4576cbcc44fc7f2294135609bce9e5

(3125)

on December 23, 2011
at 01:44 AM

i have no reason to belive that a hormone made of protein is not digested in the stomach and is of no use or concequense to IGF-1 activation. i dont care how much of this hormone is in milk, its just added protein. if it were a steriodial hormone modeled after cholesterol then i would have absorbtion concerns.

1
3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

on November 20, 2011
at 07:10 PM

Unfortunately, the only tribes that have done VLC or LC are the Inuits and Masais. They tend not to live for long, but this could be due to their environment. The further issue is the IGF-1 which she seems to attribute to insulin elevation -- IGF-1 is also raised due to dairy consumption.

It's almost indisputable now that the relationship is direct between IGF-1 and cancer: the tribe of dwarves in Ecuador she mentions is not cancer-free because they don't consume carbs but because of their genes. What's similar: prostate cancer appeared for the first time in Japan and other Asian countries where dairy was introduced; at the time, their average heights started going up because of IGF-1. The tribes in Africa that livve off of dairy all have very high average heights.

So again, the issue is: is temporary elevation of insulin due to carb consumption harmful? It's not so clear since fasting levels of BG and insluin seem to fall when you consume safe carbs. Unsafe carbs, such as sugar and refined flour, which mess up your metabolism seem to raise your fasting insulin and FBG.

That's the difference Cynthia has to explain more clearly: how are the two really different? Or how are they similar?

Also, in modern diet, IGF-1 can go up by eating dairy made with recombinant bovine growth hormone (genetically engineered growth hormone). That's just about all milk produced in the U.S., including raw milk. So we already have a specific pathway for IGF-1 elevation without necessarily increasing carbs. That's another problem: those who don't do dairy should have lower serum IGF-1 than those who do. Since the link between IGF-1 and cancer is so strong, this pretty much explains why there're very low cancer rates in countries that don't drink cow's milk. These are finer distinctions, but if she really is on the verge of receiving Nobel (we're kidding ourselves here), she must know that Cabs ==> high insulin ==> high IGF-1 is not always correct.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 20, 2011
at 08:10 PM

@Namby You can ask her yourself. She has her own lab at UCSF http://kenyonlab.ucsf.edu/html/history.html There is a tab for non scientists and an overview of the history of long lived mutants that explains her work for scientists.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 20, 2011
at 09:11 PM

Yes, I'm aware there're scattered tribes. But they seem to be LC because of dairy: the dinkas, e.g. If so, their IGF-1 would be elevated. This will neutralize whatever benefit of VLC they accrue by promoting cancer and aging. So the milk tribes don't really count, including the Masais. And we're left with them Eskimos again. They live pretty brutal lives in harsh environments. So their live could be cut short by trauma, low temperature, starvation, etc. Again, no evidence of VLC longevity via lowered insulin level.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 21, 2011
at 02:33 AM

Siberian peoples don't all do dairy and the saami adopted it recently

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 20, 2011
at 08:09 PM

@Namby You can ask her yourself. She has her own lab at UCSF kenyonlab.ucsf.edu There is a tab for non scientists and an overview of the history of long lived mutants that explains her work for scientists.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 20, 2011
at 07:57 PM

@Namby You can ask her yourself. She has her own lab at UCSF http://kenyonlab.ucsf.edu/ There is a tab for non scientists that explains her work.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 21, 2011
at 01:41 PM

I don't get this IGF-1 business, sounds like vegan propaganda. Is it abnormally elevated IGF-1 due to industrial factors or are foods that raise IGF-1 dangerous?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 21, 2011
at 01:37 PM

Most milk in the store now a days doesn't contain Rbgh

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 21, 2011
at 03:26 PM

Dr Kruse talks a lot about IGF-1 all across his blog. http://jackkruse.com/?s=igf This is a search for all instances of mention of IGF-1. Use Ctl F and enter IGF-1 to find mentions in each blog.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 20, 2011
at 07:12 PM

The Maasai only eat low-carb as young men. And there are about 20 circumpolar tribes, some of them little-known and isolated, that eat low-carb. They generally have HIGHER metabolic rates.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 21, 2011
at 11:11 AM

I'm intrigued by this IGF-1. It is an insulin sensitizer and improves glycemic control. But it supposedly causes cancer.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 21, 2011
at 05:37 AM

Actually that's true, unless their dairy has bovine growth hormone, they would be free of IGF-1. Ditto for those milk tribes of Africa. I don't think they suffer from cancer much anyway, despite their milk consumption. It's where the dairy industry has taken hold, in mass scale. Like the U.S., Europe, and even Asia where cows are bred as "milk pumps."

1
8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:02 PM

No, I would not do this one hundred percent, but I am done eating healthywholegrains for health. There is no room for quinoa in my life. Never. Again.

1
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on November 20, 2011
at 01:59 PM

I already have for the most part, though I do occasionally have less than 1/2 cup of sweet potato w/cinnamon and coconut oil (about 25 grams of carbs) occasionally a few hours after a big work out - I used to skip this and experienced hair loss and also felt totally exhausted.

I do get other carbs from salad ingredients anyway, things like lettuce, cukes, and carrots, but not much.

For a while the only carbs I ate came from dark chocolate, but the higher you go, the more expensive the bars (and less sugar), so, I've switched to just mixing in cocoa powder with coconut oil in coffee, for zero sugar.

It's really not very hard to go very low carb as long as you stay out of the cortisol zone. I suppose eating a lot more protein would have a similar effect, but why go with neoglucogenesis when you can just eat a small bit of carbs, and avoid the cortisol?

IMO, articles like these are aimed at SAD eaters whose carb intake is more along 60-80% of calories. See the stock photo of the skinny model indulging in bread and smiling.

559a1bf85bfe38a0fbbf56377c7278b4

(1548)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:52 PM

Exactly, the cortisol zone is horrible. Some people don't seem to have this problem but cortisol limits how low carb I can go.

1
559a1bf85bfe38a0fbbf56377c7278b4

on November 20, 2011
at 11:35 AM

If I could be absolutely certain, then absolutely yes, it's worth dropping all carbs, if I could tolerate it! I am middle-aged and old age is therefore not so far away for me.

I can personally see quite short-term health benefits of carb restriction, and long-term benefits from things like fat-loss see likely to me.

Unfortunately, if I go below 25g/day then cortisol goes up, blood sugar goes up and insulin follows. So for me, going too low has the opposite effect of what I intended. This effect does not seem to wear off with time.

Having said that, I cannot deny that it's nice to be able to have the odd potato and dark chocolate dessert!

559a1bf85bfe38a0fbbf56377c7278b4

(1548)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:49 PM

It does sound funny now I look at it ... but then, if you can get chocolate-covered bacon, maybe it would work ...

Ca1150430b1904659742ce2cad621c7d

(12540)

on November 20, 2011
at 01:18 PM

Dark chocolate-covered potato chips? (Home-made, of course, and fried in lard and coconut oil!)

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 20, 2011
at 01:10 PM

Your last sentence reads funny and made me chuckle as I imagined some dessert made of potatoes and dark chocolate!

Medium avatar

(10611)

on November 20, 2011
at 11:19 PM

Needham bars have potato filling (kind of like fondant) dipped in dark chocolate.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on November 20, 2011
at 05:03 PM

wait, firestorm, is that potatoes fried, and then dipped, then rolled in crumbs and fried in lard in coconut oil? Now I am intrigued.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on November 21, 2011
at 10:52 PM

please note that these are probably a bit high in food reward

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on November 21, 2011
at 10:50 PM

I have had chocolate covered potato chips, and they are good, but the potato is a bit thin so they are delicate and too chocolatey. I prefer putting rice krispies in my chocolate for a better effect.

0
757daf653498f7f15dc13f1f833f0a10

(0)

on April 24, 2014
at 01:20 PM

@Evelyn aka CarbSane

"And as we age, what happens to RQ? It goes down ... we become fat burners. The defect is in our carbohydrate metabolism, forcing us to burn more fat. This is almost definitely due to insulin resistance. So why would you want to manipulate your metabolism to that of an old, fat person?" You have it backwards - it is not the elimination or reduction of carbohydrates that causes insulin resistance - it is an excess of carbohydrates that does this. So, LCD do not, therefore, give people the metabolism of an old, fat person.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on April 24, 2014
at 01:58 PM

No Evelyn has it right. Sedentary behavior favors fat metabolism. If you act like you're old at 25 eat fat. If you act like Jack Lalanne at 95 eat fruit smoothies.

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 20, 2011
at 08:13 PM

Hi there, As a person who has recently lost a lot of weight I can certainly say that I feel more alive and am certainly living a healthier life. This (i'll bet) will already increase my life expectancy in itself.

I'm not too sure about the direct relation between low-carb or no-carb with longer life and I'd bet that nobody has done this study before so everything is pretty much still up in the air. That said, the health benefits of low-carb and no-carb are plainly obvious and this can be extrapolated to mean that life expectancy should also follow the same trend.

With my low-carb and higher than normal fat diet I've successfully lost 170lbs, my hypertension is gone and my cholesterol numbers are back to normal. If you are interested in what I've done please visit my site:

Zdiets.net

Ryan

Zdiets.net - Lost 170lbs, No more Diabetes, No more Hypertension, No more Cholesterol Issues.

0
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 20, 2011
at 06:45 PM

Sure. Pretty easy to give up carbs really. Carbs are no big deal once you get over your sugar addiction, learn how to use some spices and herbs and boom EZPZ. I'm LC but not VLC myself, but only six days a week. Have NO problemo with it, and from my current understandings I do believe this to be the optimal level for my system.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 20, 2011
at 08:27 PM

Nice link! I hadn't seen that article.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 20, 2011
at 10:29 PM

Good link. So in that persons case going six days looks like it made pretty profound effect, just not perfect. Thats pretty good, but looks like I may have to rethink my cheat day at some point. I started this without any markers of disease though so I'm a bit more lenient I guess.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 20, 2011
at 07:28 PM

@JayJay See this posting by Dr Davis regarding 6 days paleo/primal http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/2011/11/friday-is-my-bad-day.html

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 21, 2011
at 02:46 AM

While it may not be what he finds ideal in ratio it is a huge change in gross total which I feel is still quite relevant if you are going to bother checking the numbers, which I dont.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 20, 2011
at 10:40 PM

Going from 85% sdLDL to 50% of total LDL is only a reduction of 15% even though the total LDL decreased. Dr Davis is looking for 85 to 90% large bouyant LDL of the total LDL. 50% still causes plaque build up. Why delay the reduction in sdLDL by being 6/7th paleo?

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