4

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Harris' therapy?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created March 29, 2012 at 9:15 PM

Based on Dr. Harris' new idea about our inadequate micro biome and pseudocommensals in our environment as the primary NAD, is this directly contradictory to the conclusion he comes to in his Therapy vs. LIfe post :

"My car cannot fix itself. The human body often can if we just stop ruining it.

So I would encourage you to ask yourself, what are you looking for? Do you think there is a "secret"? Are you fantasizing about immortality? Is everything a tweak or a hack or a trick? Do you think every problem in your life can be fixed by changing your diet?

Or do you see life as complex and tragic but sweet and rewarding, and are happy just to stack the odds in your favor with diet and then get on about your other business?"

His post argues that we are capable of self-healing, while he is now stating that we are not. Right..?

nance: tag edit only

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 30, 2012
at 12:34 AM

Huh. I heard somewhere that "Also "we" in the community don't approve of any sort of ad hom behavior. – Sean Abbott 1 hour ago" Irony. I like it.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on March 30, 2012
at 12:30 AM

All this says to me is that there is a void of KGH blog posts.....or books!

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on March 29, 2012
at 11:33 PM

Dude - I don't know what cupboard you were hiding in but am digging your logic. Ding! Damn near my exact thoughts.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 29, 2012
at 11:20 PM

@Sean Abbott, much better than starting a new thread! Thanks for making me LOL. I needed that.

079c9288506d6692b9ce6ab0e9b2bcac

(359)

on March 29, 2012
at 11:11 PM

Piss off Kurt, what makes you the expert of what is useful. Just because you are famous? I'll have you know my fanboy meter is pegged to 11. Also "we" in the community don't approve of any sort of ad hom behavior.

079c9288506d6692b9ce6ab0e9b2bcac

(359)

on March 29, 2012
at 11:02 PM

"You are treating internet blogs like a medical textbook when they are more like an evolving corpus of case law." Very insightful take. Also, case law, despite its flaws, is superior to civil law because it's not a top-down hierarchy.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 29, 2012
at 11:01 PM

+1 Awesomeness.

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 29, 2012
at 10:50 PM

suggest that H.pylori as one of the possible candidates for beneficial pseudocommensals? I thought if doctors get a positive stomach biopsy or blood test for h.pylori, they'll prescribe antibiotics without a hint of hesitation.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on March 29, 2012
at 10:49 PM

"Is the comment made by Dr. Harris about Sean Abbott a paleo-compatible comment?"

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 29, 2012
at 10:48 PM

my pronouncement was based on the fact that " Helminths secrete a multitude of molecules, including protease inhibitors, cytokine homologues, and a number of other compounds that alter T-cell function. These molecules down-regulate the host’s immune system.". Going hand in hand with your analogy about the uneducated, yet well armed immune cells, these compounds "teach" and occupy our immune systems so that they don't attack our own tissues. And if they were working in concert with our immune system, then why does Graham (http://www.grahamrook.net/downloads/files/Rook_Dahlem%20conference_2010.p

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on March 29, 2012
at 10:48 PM

"Is Dr. Harris commenting on Sean Abbott paleo?"

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 29, 2012
at 10:35 PM

LOL! News headline: "Dr Harris says boredom rampant!"

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 29, 2012
at 10:34 PM

LOL! "paralysis by analysis"

87f26cf235a0e2420e28779113b0257b

on March 29, 2012
at 10:29 PM

@Steven -On the contrary, OFH suggests that they work in concert with the immune system to do the actual fixing and in fact they are not damage, they are part of our bodies they same way bacteria are. Read some of the sources (pubmed is your friend) before making armchair pronouncements about it.

87f26cf235a0e2420e28779113b0257b

on March 29, 2012
at 10:26 PM

You are treating internet blogs like a medical textbook when they are more like an evolving corpus of case law. Try to think of everything contextually and with contingency in mind.

87f26cf235a0e2420e28779113b0257b

on March 29, 2012
at 10:25 PM

It might be possible to fix your micobiome, and it might not. You might fix it, and then still be stuck with some disease for which there is no dietary cure, not any cure at all. No contradiction at all. Only a 180 if you are not thinking carefully. Maybe you should stop reading blogs if every sentence you read looks like a prescription written for you personally.... What is up with coming up with new insights and being dismissed because of some alleged contradiction? Do you imagine bloggers write all posts at once and then publish them slowly over many years so they all fit together?

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:56 PM

and i'm not arguing the diet part, or any magical tweak. I'm merely saying that one view (the life one) suggests that we can, more or less, enjoy life without damaging ourselves through superfluously through inadequate diet, while continuing to endure the necessary hardships (one's that you can't get around with magic pills..etc). But the hygiene hypothesis is saying we'll have an half the flask of water that our ancestors had while walking through the desert (i.e. we actually will have a disadvantage, or more hardship than we should). So therapy is useful, just as long as it's the right one

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:51 PM

I think that's a matter of semantics. I read that line as the best you can do with diet is to stop making things worse where you can, I saw that post as railing against the 'I can make it ALL better' attitude that some people in the blogosphere posess.

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:50 PM

and i'm not arguing the diet part, or any magical tweak. I'm merely saying that one view (the life one) suggests that we can, more or less, enjoy life without damaging ourselves through superfluously through inadequate diet, while continuing to endure the necessary hardships (one's that you can't get around with magic pills..etc). But the hygiene hypothesis is saying we'll have an half the flask of water that our ancestors had while walking through the desert (i.e. we actually will have a disadvantage, or more hardship than we should).

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:47 PM

how do you reconcile this line: " You don't need fixing so much as to just stop injuring yourself." ? Because as I see it the eukaryotic commensals of the old friends hypothesis suggest that a certain amount of injury is actually necessary.... in this case fixing is allowing injury, albeit mildly..

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:40 PM

what's more pertinent than understanding how a possible 180 can occur within a couple months. I'm sure most people in the paleo world understand that we're dealing with an extremely inexact science, but the change between the human body being able to fix itself and suddenly 'not being able to' (i.e. now avoidance of the prior three horsemen is just palliative) is rather 'on topic' if you don't mind my disagreement....

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:23 PM

I think it's very situational and either statement can be true or false. I think this question is off topic.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 29, 2012
at 09:23 PM

If he hasn't done a comprehensive blog post in it, I wouldn't try to characterize his views based on comments here or on my blog.

  • Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

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5 Answers

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2
079c9288506d6692b9ce6ab0e9b2bcac

on March 29, 2012
at 10:17 PM

"Or do you see life as complex and tragic but sweet and rewarding, and are happy just to stack the odds in your favor with diet and then get on about your other business?"

Less Woodstock, more science. Is this a poetry reading?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 30, 2012
at 12:34 AM

Huh. I heard somewhere that "Also "we" in the community don't approve of any sort of ad hom behavior. – Sean Abbott 1 hour ago" Irony. I like it.

12
0905a0f8cd1e48f6d39fe625a65b6ef1

(2890)

on March 29, 2012
at 10:36 PM

We're pretty much screwed as a species in many ways with regard to our health. We don't find ourselves on the other side of the birth canal with the world's best genes. Those of us alive today have been pushed into a world rife with antibacterial soap, infant formula, moms who liked our hands and faces washed before each meal. And, because we're members of a culture also rife with stupidity, we may have eaten a ton of tater chips fried in canola oil and dusted with ingredients so far removed from this good earth that they might as well have come from an alien civilization. The deck was stacked against us Day 1, but by Day Whatever, we've compromised our systems by removing whatever might have been left that could be helpful, necessary, good.

So, we are living critters with systems that have issues. And diet ain't gonna cure these issues. Diet can't give us the microbes that vats of soap have washed away. Diet can't rebuild missing parts. Diet can't even ease some symptoms - it's not the food. It's your body that does the work. Some people don't see a change when they move to a "Paleo" diet. They still suffer a two-page list of symptoms. So they keep tweaking diet, adding more coconut oil or deleting eggs or, or, or.... and the real basis of their problems is that their body is angry and tired and confused and missing vital elements. There's only so much that food can do. You can add some other elements to help your body along - adequate sleep, water, sex, play - but this may not be enough, either.

In Therapy versus Life, Dr. H is saying that you can choose a diet that is based on whole foods and then get along with your life. What else can you do, really? Give your body the nutrition it requires and see what it can do. For many people, this will bring the body into alignment - not because the food is healing - it's not. The body heals itself. Always. Your inner flora and fauna should flourish if you aren't too far gone and you give it good food and good rest. But, there are just as many, or more perhaps, I have no idea how many, who will never reach that beauty, that sweet spot. You gotta pass these folks a bag of dirt and a few worms. And even then, it is the body who is the physician and nurse.

We think we are each one person, one body. But we are a collection of a million million microbes, each doing their job. We are a collective.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on March 29, 2012
at 11:01 PM

+1 Awesomeness.

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on March 29, 2012
at 11:33 PM

Dude - I don't know what cupboard you were hiding in but am digging your logic. Ding! Damn near my exact thoughts.

10
87f26cf235a0e2420e28779113b0257b

on March 29, 2012
at 10:30 PM

Jesus Christ, how many threads can we have about one comment on a blog? You PH folks must be having a slow news day. Even Sean Abbott is bored, I guess.....

Sean, why not make yourself useful and start another thread for them. Find the oldest sentence I ever wrote, take it out of context and find a newer sentence that sounds different. Be sure to take everything literally, of course...

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 29, 2012
at 11:20 PM

@Sean Abbott, much better than starting a new thread! Thanks for making me LOL. I needed that.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 29, 2012
at 10:34 PM

LOL! "paralysis by analysis"

079c9288506d6692b9ce6ab0e9b2bcac

(359)

on March 29, 2012
at 11:11 PM

Piss off Kurt, what makes you the expert of what is useful. Just because you are famous? I'll have you know my fanboy meter is pegged to 11. Also "we" in the community don't approve of any sort of ad hom behavior.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on March 29, 2012
at 10:48 PM

"Is Dr. Harris commenting on Sean Abbott paleo?"

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 29, 2012
at 10:35 PM

LOL! News headline: "Dr Harris says boredom rampant!"

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on March 30, 2012
at 12:30 AM

All this says to me is that there is a void of KGH blog posts.....or books!

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on March 29, 2012
at 10:49 PM

"Is the comment made by Dr. Harris about Sean Abbott a paleo-compatible comment?"

0
53ba4017f8db7f5ebe4af165a3acda93

on March 30, 2012
at 12:09 AM

The whole basis of the placebo effect is that about 2/3's of our "ailments" will pretty much go away on their own.

0
A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

on March 29, 2012
at 09:40 PM

I didn't get that from that post, and I think he has been pretty consistent in this area. He was saying that some things cannot be touched by diet, then and now. I.e. if you are eating well as in not making your health actively worse but still have a health issue, do not go searching for that magical tweak, as you will more than likely fail, or worse damage your health with some untested 'treatment'.

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 29, 2012
at 10:50 PM

suggest that H.pylori as one of the possible candidates for beneficial pseudocommensals? I thought if doctors get a positive stomach biopsy or blood test for h.pylori, they'll prescribe antibiotics without a hint of hesitation.

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 29, 2012
at 10:48 PM

my pronouncement was based on the fact that " Helminths secrete a multitude of molecules, including protease inhibitors, cytokine homologues, and a number of other compounds that alter T-cell function. These molecules down-regulate the host’s immune system.". Going hand in hand with your analogy about the uneducated, yet well armed immune cells, these compounds "teach" and occupy our immune systems so that they don't attack our own tissues. And if they were working in concert with our immune system, then why does Graham (http://www.grahamrook.net/downloads/files/Rook_Dahlem%20conference_2010.p

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:51 PM

I think that's a matter of semantics. I read that line as the best you can do with diet is to stop making things worse where you can, I saw that post as railing against the 'I can make it ALL better' attitude that some people in the blogosphere posess.

87f26cf235a0e2420e28779113b0257b

on March 29, 2012
at 10:29 PM

@Steven -On the contrary, OFH suggests that they work in concert with the immune system to do the actual fixing and in fact they are not damage, they are part of our bodies they same way bacteria are. Read some of the sources (pubmed is your friend) before making armchair pronouncements about it.

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:56 PM

and i'm not arguing the diet part, or any magical tweak. I'm merely saying that one view (the life one) suggests that we can, more or less, enjoy life without damaging ourselves through superfluously through inadequate diet, while continuing to endure the necessary hardships (one's that you can't get around with magic pills..etc). But the hygiene hypothesis is saying we'll have an half the flask of water that our ancestors had while walking through the desert (i.e. we actually will have a disadvantage, or more hardship than we should). So therapy is useful, just as long as it's the right one

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:47 PM

how do you reconcile this line: " You don't need fixing so much as to just stop injuring yourself." ? Because as I see it the eukaryotic commensals of the old friends hypothesis suggest that a certain amount of injury is actually necessary.... in this case fixing is allowing injury, albeit mildly..

Dfeb3c1ef269c5dc03154d1689c14373

(716)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:50 PM

and i'm not arguing the diet part, or any magical tweak. I'm merely saying that one view (the life one) suggests that we can, more or less, enjoy life without damaging ourselves through superfluously through inadequate diet, while continuing to endure the necessary hardships (one's that you can't get around with magic pills..etc). But the hygiene hypothesis is saying we'll have an half the flask of water that our ancestors had while walking through the desert (i.e. we actually will have a disadvantage, or more hardship than we should).

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