17

votes

Ron Rosedale and Jack Kruse have two different approaches. Which one is better? Why? And under what circumstances?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created September 07, 2013 at 12:44 AM

Jack Kruse: http://jackkruse.com/my-leptin-prescription/ (This is intended for 6-8 weeks or until leptin sensitive and a paleo diet post reset.)

Ron Rosedale's website: http://drrosedale.com/healthplan.htm (I included Rosedale's b/c his was shorter than Kruse's)

Rosedale:

"Here are some basic rules to follow which will keep you on a path to ultimate health and longevity:

FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF You are about to embark on a program that will produce wonderful results for your body. You will learn a new way of eating that will make you look better and feel better than you have in years. Within a short time--usually within two to three weeks???most of you will notice that you look leaner, your clothes fit better, and you have energy to spare. There will also be some amazing things happening to you that aren???t visible, yet are ever more important. Your Longevity Profile--that is your biomarkers of aging--will be vastly improved as you regain your leptin sensitivity, and along with losing excess fat you will be de-aging your body and reinventing your body. So smile, feel good about taking this positive step, and get started.

AVOID SUGAR AND STARCH To jump start the fat burning process, during the first 3 weeks on the meal plan, eat as little non fiber starch or sugar as possible. You don???t have to count carb grams; just don???t eat non fiber carbs. Avoid all starches such as potatoes, bread, rice, pasta, cereal, corn and ALL GRAINS (yes, even whole grains.) Fill up with your plate with vegetables, with the exception of those high in sugar including beets, yams, carrots or tomatoes (though a few sliced carrots or cherry tomatoes in salads is okay). Limit your fruit intake to a small amount (1/4 cup maximum daily) of berries, preferably blueberries. (Diabetics should avoid starch and sugar all the time.) After the first 3 weeks, you can add a bit more starch to your diet (such as a couple of slices of high fiber, low carb bread) as long as this does not increase your cravings for more.

EAT THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF PROTEIN FOR YOU Remember, this is a high fat diet, not a high protein diet. You should eat the right amount of protein for your body type.

DON???T BE AFRAID OF FAT--BUT EAT GOOD FAT This is a high fat diet, so if you are hungry, you may eat fat! But stick to the good fats found in nuts, avocados, fatty fish, olives, etc.

LIMIT SATURATED FAT FOR THE FIRST THREE WEEKS When you want to lose weight, what you really want to lose is saturated fat. So stop eating it, at least for the first three weeks you are on the meal plan. Pass on the beef, pork, lamb and most dairy products and eat primarily fish, nuts, chicken, vegetables and no fat cheese. After the first three weeks on the meal plan, you can eat foods that are higher in saturated fat (such as lean beef, lamb and pork) although those wishing to continue losing weight should not eat very much of these foods.

EAT WHEN YOU ARE HUNGRY I don???t want you to walk around hungry. When you are hungry, eat good fats, protein (if you have not exceeded your protein limit) and fiber (like vegetables.) Good snacks include raw or dry roasted nuts, nut butters, guacamole and vegetables and dip. (See recipes page xx.) You should not be hungry on this diet, I mean it! If you are hungry, have a handful of nuts or any of the healthy snacks listed in the menus. If you have trouble feeling full without eating a lot of starch, fill up on vegetables. Your cravings for sweets and starches, which are similar to an addiction, should subside within three weeks.

DRINK LOTS OF WATER Stick to water, seltzer, or flavored water (tea and herbal teas.) No soda of any type, even diet soda, and no juice.

DON???T EAT A LOT AT ONE TIME. When you are hungry eat a small meal or snack rather. It???s far better for your metabolism to eat several small meals or snacks throughout the day than three large meals.

EAT SLOWLY If you bolt down your food, your brain will not have the chance to know that you are no longer hungry, and you will keep eating. If you eat slowly, your brain will get the message that you are filling up, and you will know when it???s time to stop eating.

DON???T EAT FOR AT LEAST THREE HOURS BEFORE BEDTIME Your last meal in the evening should be at least twelve hours from your first meal of the morning. This will give your body the time it needs to rest and heal, and you will find that you are sleeping better. Digesting food is hard work. Let your digestive system sleep also. Drinking water, however, is okay.

EXERCISE AFTER THE LAST MEAL OF THE DAY (IF POSSIBLE) Do 15-20 minutes of mild resistance exercise (see chapter xx) or take a short walk (preferably uphill.) This will help burn up sugar, and prime you for a night time of fat burning. Then you should keep burning fat all night long, and the more fat you burn, the better you get at it. Even broccoli has some sugar and I want you to burn it off as soon as possible. What I don???t want you to do is to eat late, lie down on the sofa and go to sleep. This will force your body to be working hard trying to digest all that food just when it should be winding down for sleep.

And finally......

DON???T SLIP UP??? AT LEAST FOR THE FIRST THREE WEEKS It takes about three weeks for your metabolism to retool so that you switch from being a ???sugar burner??? to a ???fat burner.??? Once your body and brain have made the switch, you will feel the difference. You will have more energy, better mental focus, and you???ll even be sleeping better! In my experience, I have found that after feeling the difference, and "retooling" the brain's needs and desires, few people want to go back to their old eating patterns. NOBODY???S PERFECT It is far better not to, but IF YOU DO SLIP UP...EXERCISE IT OFF. If you ???forget??? and eat a sandwich with two slices of bread, or eat a cookie, go for a brisk 20-30 minute walk or undertake other exercise immediately after eating. If you don???t burn off those starchy calories right away, they will raise your blood sugar, raise your leptin and insulin levels, prevent fat burning, and turn to fat, all of which get you right back to a deranged metabolism."

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on August 23, 2013
at 01:39 AM

you were not.....so now I added another one.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on February 15, 2013
at 03:29 AM

Quilt, first of all, this article was published last fall and was widely circulated at that time. Old news. Second, it seems to have little to do with that blog post of yours. But perhaps I'm just not thinking horizontally enough?

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on February 15, 2013
at 12:53 AM

It's always interesting how you sign in here so that you can bring threads that refer to you back to the top. Your latest blog post was, surprise, incomprehensible.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on November 15, 2011
at 04:29 AM

each post i read.. it seems so clear the ones that get it and the ones that are following tradition. Andre.. kudos to the big picture, we should join and gain strength where it is needed. I think where Rosedale is at a loss with many here is he is far too advanced in his science, proven with his patients over and over again. It is when people are sick enough, after trying many of these 'other' ways of living they come to Rosedale to get it right. He treats the disease of 'aging' which effects the root of all. Which is going beyond paleo.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on November 15, 2011
at 04:20 AM

I am really loving majkinetor and Andre.. you guys get it loud and clear, big picture view. Love your posts as they add great clarity.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on November 15, 2011
at 04:11 AM

adriana, majkinetor, lee. very well said. there are few in this forum that have been deeply engrossed in research on the same subject of deeper health, personally treated and tested hundreds of patients for over 20 years. It is quite disgusting the disrespect that goes around this forum. It is fine to each have their own opinions and be passionate about it, but the throwing of mud and elementary comments about how one holds their hands, comparing with evangelists and about their wrinkles is really beneath the whole point of this meeting place to share great science and great minds alike.

8cdd21051a8dd11a0e3dc8300f36d31d

on November 13, 2011
at 04:39 AM

Well too bad for you because I created a script that keeps recreating my account!

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 12, 2011
at 07:46 AM

@Matthew; " 'everyone' is quite a sweeping statement to make"... you are right, but not quite sweeping enough. I should have said everyone, including all primates, rodents and likely all animals. Thanks

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 10, 2011
at 05:53 PM

Anyone have access to the full text of this recent study? *A higher-carbohydrate, lower-fat diet reduces fasting glucose concentration and improves β-cell function in individuals with impaired fasting glucose* http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21944267

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 10, 2011
at 04:15 PM

It is also clear to me you did not do me the courtesy of reading my links before responding. What say you about the study showing NO leptin spiking? I realize you like to tout your groundbreaking, but around 20 years ago was when the venerable JD McGarry published his infamous Minkowski paper. A link to that and a series of well controlled studies demonstrating improved glucose tolerance on very high carb diets is included here: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/10/diabetes-treatment-new-dogma-old-dogma.html I would appreciate a reciprocal consideration of evidence provided.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 10, 2011
at 04:03 PM

Please spare me the condescending attitude. I am perfectly capable of reading and understanding the scientific literature. I would appreciate you listing them all in one place as this site is difficult to navigate/search to find the other few which, as I recall, were not relevant. Diabetic hyperglycemia does *further* damage the beta cells. We're talking normal glucose spikes doing so. There's no evidence of that.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 10, 2011
at 12:09 AM

20 years ago when I proposed this about insulin and later leptin, there were no articles...that is what happens when one breaks new ground, and proposes new theoriesx. Since then there have been many supporting articles published. I have already cited some and inferred from others (i.e. glucose impaires the function of islet cells) and will cite more when back on my main computer, but only if you then admit publicly that you read and understood them and that you were wrong, as you understand that the best anyone can do is lend robust evidence. There is no such thing as proof

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 10:23 PM

Bottom line, you've been at this for 20 years. You claim to bridge the gap between science and medicine. There should be one good review article in your arsenal to substantiate your basic claims: (1) IR is caused by carbs and insulin spikes, and (2) LR is caused by carbs and leptin spikes. C'mon ... humor me and cite just one of each for me, OK? That is not asking for much.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 10:17 PM

Cody you/Jack/whoever can't have it both ways. Jack seems to say that if you're LS, calories don't count b/c your mitochondria go into overdrive and it all goes flying out the window of thermogenesis. Does this make you warmer or cooler?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 09, 2011
at 09:59 PM

What about the DOGMA that you preach? Look up Hypocrite in the dictionary, Evelyn. Here, let me Google that for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy How is that Glass House you are living in?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 09, 2011
at 09:53 PM

Evelyn, I do not believe that they are making opposing claims. If I remember correctly, Kruse says you will FEEL warmer while your body temp actually goes down slightly. Nice try.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 09:15 PM

That should read "how many studies" not "now many ..." And I do think it is an important distinction to make between "spiking" -- as in a postprandially-linked response, and some delayed response. Fasting/basal insulin is not related to carbs either. Nor do carbs cause insulin resistance by spiking insulin.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 09:12 PM

@Ron: None. Now many studies can you cite where a third party measured leptin responses to different diets? Apparently none. The blog posts I linked to in my answer here cite studies. Look at the graphics. There's NO spiking. Ever so slight differentials in the several hours later levels. Leptin peaks overnight. I have not ignored anything you've cited to me here. Ahh ... vendetta? LOL. Did you read my responses? Apparently not. Send Fiona on over to check it out.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 09, 2011
at 08:31 PM

@evelyn..Leptin is raised/spiked by glucose...very solid science that I have tested myself also. How many leptin's have you tested? Raising BG from carbs is a major cause of Insilin resistance. I could cite many articles as I have already, that you ignore. I will be responding to Paul's post and studies that you cite when back from traveling. They are very poor examples that merely show improvement compared to one eating a standard poor diet, I.e. just better that bad. Your objections appear to be based less on science and more on some unknown vendetta.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 09, 2011
at 08:12 PM

@cliff and Evelyn.. I didn't say we should lower our metabolism; we should improve the quality of our metabolism. I am talking about running cooler just as a car engine does when working well. This is not hypothyroidism.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 09, 2011
at 08:07 PM

Exactly correct. Thank you for reading, understanding, and explaining...and isn't the point of using leptin as key, to control hunger? Not allowing snacks long term is not trusting that your program has worked. As long as the snacks continue to allow fat burning, it is a goog thing. Starvation burns lean mass also.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 07:40 PM

I was diagnosed with Dogma Resistance about a year and a half ago. Indeed there is some theory that an autoimmune response to RDA (repetetive dogma assaults) may be what's going on in my neurons. There's also evidence of increase in BS-detection receptors. Where's the evidence that carbs spike leptin that leads to leptin resistance?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 07:26 PM

Andre if you look at my root answer to this post you'll see some of the BS I'm talking about.

87d6d6bb877621fc921f118c50d58043

(0)

on November 09, 2011
at 06:51 PM

@snowman: He didn't say snacking is beneficial. He said you should not be hungry. Snacking some good thing is better then burning in hunger then probably overeating or binging later. The other, potentially beneficial thing, is that *good snakcs* will deliver nutrients, reduce later food input and will not rise insulin level much or produce sugar fluctuations. Being hungry all the time while aiming for weight loss is not going to work in the long run. The same strategy is used for a dumping syndrome.

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 09, 2011
at 06:26 PM

One more thing, sorry: my comment directly above needs the disclaimer that AFAIK all studies on leptin have found that thin people have less leptin than fat people, even if they used to be fat, and that obese people losing weight lowers circulating leptin, indicating increased leptin sensitivity

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 09, 2011
at 06:22 PM

I will add that Quilt looks very lean indeed to my eye in his photos (face, neck, arms), but 15% BF is not particularly lean for a man, so he probably still carries that extra fat in the areas of his body that underwent adipocyte hyperplasia when he was at his heaviest. I have to agree with Travis that either a]leptin aint' everything when it comes to body comp, or, if a] is true, than b]Quilt isn't leptin-sensitive, or AS leptin-sensitive as he could be...

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 09, 2011
at 06:18 PM

I will say that Quilt looks very lean indeed to my eye in his photos (face, neck, arms), but 15% BF is not particularly lean for a man, so he probably still carries that extra fat in the areas of his body that underwent adipocyte hyperplasia when he was at his heaviest.

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 09, 2011
at 06:14 PM

However that doesn't seem to be the case; most formerly obese people have persistently higher body fat than someone a similar weight who has never been fat, even with insanely strict diet, and if they succeed in achieving very low weights. Often the extra fat remains subcutaneously and is visible to the naked eye; right under the skin of the abdomen, and in the upper arms are two very common places. It's often termed 'loose skin' and can be removed with a 'tuck' - but it's not just loose skin, although that's part of it.

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 09, 2011
at 06:10 PM

Apoptosis = spontaneous self-destruction of cells, non-essential adipocytes = superfluous fat cells (if you are fat enough for long enough, your body will build extra fat cells). So I'm pretty sure Travis is saying that if 'the biology of the leptin receptor' is indeed the primary governor of body comp, that restoring leptin sensitivity and optimizing the metabolism should reduce body fat to ideal leanness (by unnecessary/extra fat cells being hormonally 'commanded' to destroy themselves), even in someone with a history of being super-obese like Quilt.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 09, 2011
at 05:38 PM

curious about the nuts too, im all on with rosedales recommendations for everyone, not just someone in need of losing weight. i personally can vouch for MUFAs, MCTs and good PUFAs working with my body way better than a satfat load. its just hard to find good sources of the right fats...i cant find red palm oil ANYMORE!!!!

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 09, 2011
at 05:33 PM

likey carbsane... need to go find that interview...

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 09, 2011
at 05:32 PM

"wouldn't restoring leptin sensitivity lead to apoptosis of non-essential adipocytes?" can you put that in dumbdumb terms

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 09, 2011
at 05:30 PM

"People who saw it live are still rather shocked. It has been effortless." Quilt, you said this... my only stumped mind in this is why you so effortlessly let yourself get to 44%BF while all the time it was 'effortless' to get to 14%... i know, you want to say your leptin changed but there is so much more to it than that and defining 44%bf to 14%bf is not effortless, sorry i dont care who you are

B71f5927c48413965e19da2d9367624a

(121)

on November 09, 2011
at 02:31 PM

@Dr. Rosedale - You encourage nut consumption, while Dr. Kruse personally avoid nuts in general except macadamian and pistacios due to the PUFA content. Would you explain your view?

B71f5927c48413965e19da2d9367624a

(121)

on November 09, 2011
at 02:14 PM

@Dr. Rosedale - Would you explain why snacking is beneficial vs. Dr. Kruse's 2-3 meals a day and no snacking on his reset?

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 09, 2011
at 01:27 PM

Cate Shanahan talked about adipocyte apoptosis in her podcast with Jimmy Moore. I'm hoping she's right!

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 12:44 PM

@Dextery: Well then the two programs purported to work on leptin resistance, make opposing claims. Kruse is hot, Rosedale is not. OK, I get it now.

87d6d6bb877621fc921f118c50d58043

(0)

on November 09, 2011
at 08:24 AM

@Shari: I am not misogynist. I have boobs myself :P

87d6d6bb877621fc921f118c50d58043

(0)

on November 09, 2011
at 08:21 AM

@Melissa: don't say kitchen isn't funny, its just the thing that you don't have a sense of humor. We all know it is *always* funny, its a famous meme on the net, and that proves its funny *every time*: http://goo.gl/XhV2E. I didn't say Chris to teach you a lesson, that is sexist, lol, I told him to teach you manners. And banning for that shows a lot about top people of this community.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 09, 2011
at 07:30 AM

Good point, animalcule. Adipocyte hyperplasia would definitely take place at that level, even in a male. However, if leptin/its receptors are the primary governors, then wouldn't restoring leptin sensitivity lead to apoptosis of non-essential adipocytes?

2b2c2e4aa87e9aa4c99cae48e980f70d

(1059)

on November 09, 2011
at 07:08 AM

Let 's consider it progress to have a critical mass of gurus and followers pulling in generally the same direction. I don't think there is goingto be THE answer for everybody anyhow. Throwing arrows at each other is not progress; civilized discorse and ealthy disagreement is the way to go.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 09, 2011
at 05:54 AM

And you know that he is wrong...same/same.

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 09, 2011
at 03:20 AM

IIRC Quilt you were more than 100 lbs overweight before? I think when someone has been overfat to that degree, it's difficult if not impossible to ever be very lean, even with a restored metabolism and optimal diet. Your more garden-variety 'fat' person with 30-50 extra lbs is a different animal.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 09, 2011
at 02:44 AM

Yes....i started at 44% bf and am now at 14-17%.... i think im doing quite well. People who saw it live are still rather shocked. It has been effortless. I also have people who are testimonies of how simple it is. Your belief i am at maximal or optimal is your view.....my view is as i post on fb daily.....im improving my former self daily. Im quite confident in my position and my skin.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 09, 2011
at 02:36 AM

Im my view the receptor is damaged by PUFA dietary content.....and the cravings are exacerbated by the brainstem tracts on NPY. This is how carbs tie in. To neutralize npy i demolish thenresponse with protein or fat loads at dawns light when the hypocretins signal its time to feed. This signal cause the hypothalamus to relearn what dawns light realy means.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 09, 2011
at 02:31 AM

Ron considering i have an amgen researcher in my family i think i know precisely why the bailed......

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 09, 2011
at 02:04 AM

Ageism isn't OK. The science is either right or it's wrong. Rosedale absolutely knows his diet is the optimal diet. What could be more narrow-minded?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 09, 2011
at 01:38 AM

You've discovered the miracle of DNP? (note: not condoning the miracle of DNP)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 09, 2011
at 01:36 AM

Yup-- sick, radicool, dudical.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 09, 2011
at 12:42 AM

Those of us who have successfully completed the leptin RX reset experience an inner warmth so much that heretofore sleeping in a cold room required lots of covers. Now many of us sleep with no covers and during the day do not need coats, whereas co workers do.

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 10:34 PM

Kamal, don't worry I'm feelin' you. You meant it was sick, right? :)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 08, 2011
at 08:42 PM

FYI I didn't move to ban Maj. I was merely calling him out for the kitchen issues. He got banned because of a now-deleted comment that said that Chris needed to teach me a lesson. Kitchen jokes can be fully sometimes, but that's never funny.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 08, 2011
at 08:41 PM

Hmm, I know young people who have red faces too. I never called them old. It seems to be more common in older people.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 07:45 PM

In case it wasn't clear, I meant Chris's very involving analogy was out of control in a GOOD way. Does that make sense? It's like if Chris was a turtle, and his blog was a tropical island, and he was trying to find a good place to find shade...

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 07:14 PM

Paleo 2.0, yes in healthy people consuming more carbohydrate makes one more carbohydrate tolerant, as would be expected from the many other cases in which the body appropriately adjusts to the environment. Kamal, There is no need to apologize because raising your blood glucose by 0.01% is like saying "I love you." Jack and Travis, thank you. At the time I wrote it, I got a number of positive comments and in my experience with teaching, a little goofing off is productive if it gets the point across because it helps keep people's attention to an otherwise tedious subject. Sincerely, Chris

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 07:11 PM

Dear Dr. Rosedale, Thank you for your clarification. Sincerely, Chris

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 07:02 PM

@cliff, I find the desired lowering of body temp disturbing. I probably suffer from some borderline thyroid deficiency and am often colder than those around me. It's not a comfy state, and saps energy as well.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 07:00 PM

But, I must say, at least Sisson does look the part. Which really is more than I can say for a number of folks out there hawking their healthy diet/lifestyle plans.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 06:59 PM

Thanks Travis, and I agree, I think activity has a lot to do with it. My problem with Sisson is that he's not some guy who underwent some paleo transformation from some unhealthy sedentary Family Guy sort -- or even just the average dude carrying around a 6-pack concealer and love handles. He was an elite conditioned athlete. Combine that with good genes, a tan and hair color, and who knows what else (no I'm not accusing him of more nefarious methods a la Durian Rider, but there are lots of minor cosmetic and non-surgical means of turning back the clock these days).

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 06:48 PM

I'm in agreement with Rosedale on the sat fats but would say it's probably a good idea while you're losing weight at any sort of clip. Why? However I disagree on the reason (although in his interview with Jimmy Moore his explanation was closer to my thinking). A large portion of our body fat FA's are LCSFA so they are not in short supply. Eat more, burn less of your endogenous supply. Once your fat metabolism has been corrected the composition of your fat consumption won't make much difference, and perhaps some sat fat may be more beneficial.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:38 PM

Pray tell, what is the BS? Define. That is a strong statement that should be backed up by equally strong evidence.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:33 PM

Rosendale also believes we should lower our metabolism for longevity but the science doesn't seem to necessarily agree http://cmbi.bjmu.edu.cn/news/0406/6.htm

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:14 PM

Quilt: If you (presumably) have maximal leptin sensitivity and body comp is all about the leptin receptor, shouldn't you effortlessly approach your desired BF%?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:12 PM

Let me just state that there are far too *few* ridiculous analogies in the paleosphere. Everyone should post at least one per day. In fact, it's a bit like...[CENSORED BY KAMAL]

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:09 PM

Regarding Sisson, I think a great deal of his health is *because of* his activity, not in spite of it. He supplies his body with all necessary raw materials, eats plenty of carbs *and* eats a lot of fat and can do that because he's so active. There is no dietary substitute for activity. Evolution has assumed that sedentary=dead so we've never evolved to cope with it.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:07 PM

Excellent post, Evelyn. Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. It'd be hard to imagine there being no outward signs of vitality. Sure, you could claim that all of your blood sample metrics are optimal, but that ought to slow the clock down, right? As unscientific as it is, I think as long as someone feels great and has tons of energy all the time from waking until they go to sleep (with plenty of activity, weights etc.), at least their macro ratio is probably fine. I can't replicate that feeling with LC, so I have a hard time believing that longevity gets in the way of vitality.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:50 PM

Ha! ol' CMast is here! Excellent. I thought those analogies were quite creative. Sounded like Chris was just goofing off for a moment. No harm in that.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 04:40 PM

@edrice: I have those few more decades on Melissa and it doesn't make any more sense to me. Is the sky supposed to open, the sunbeams come down and a chorus of "Ah aaaaaah!" supposed to happen? @majkinetor: Why the "hater" term? Just because someone calls someone on BS doesn't mean that term applies. Speaking for myself, I don't even dislike Jack let alone hate him. I suspect socially we'd hit it off right well. I haven't even interacted with Rosedale enough to form an opinion of him personally. I'm going to go read some cosmology to get a better take. ;)

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 04:35 PM

What's the magic of three weeks? Eight weeks? Two weeks? Five days? It's all about a gimmick to jumpstart weight loss. Let's not kid ourselves here. Jack touts his own weight loss (well done! <- and he says I can't say anything positive) and credits his leptin reset for it. I don't know Rosedale's history, but his diet does focus on fat loss. Let's be honest with the marketing please. If it's "live to be 100" and you might lose a pound or two along the way ...

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:27 PM

There is somewhat of a difference though between saying some third party looks like Hell and in actually telling someone directly to go to Hell.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:19 PM

If it turns into Lost, can I be Hurley?

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:54 PM

It's turning into Lord of the flies around here!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:51 PM

Yeah, I'm not sure this whole thing is quantifiable or even identifiable. Stress alone isn't 100% causative, but I'd bet that the stress response is pretty darn causative. Some respond to everyday life by freaking the heck out, while some respond to crazy life events by taking a deep breath and proceeding with life. On the other hand, my mom freaks the heck out all the time, yet she looks maybe ten years older than me.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 03:34 PM

I would also mention that I know of many people who grew up in rough times (real poverty, war zones and such), engaged in bad habits like smoking and excessive drinking and remain relatively youthful looking for their age. So again I think it's this insistence that some diet that does something to one hormone or its receptors or your sensitivity to it that doesn't quite cut it for me, and if this were true then there should be some outward indication IMO. Or I would hope so, anyway.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 03:25 PM

I happen to agree Kamal. Most who meet me -- including both my young classes (I'm older than most of their Moms) and older classes (I teach a lot of those returning to school in their 40's, 50's and older these days) -- generally place me at around 10 years or so younger than I am. This despite years of that so-called skin ager (tanning) and crappy diet for so many years. I guess my point is that if there's something to this longevity angle, then it should show, right? Rosedale has been at this for 20 years. Davis talks about glycation and wrinkles so ... whassup with his wrinkles?

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:58 PM

In lean people, leptin levels are important. Drops in leptin are correlated to increased hunger with weight loss, leptin scales with bodyfat... it would be pretty stupid of the body to evolve an anti-starvation hormone if the circulating levels of that hormone weren't important.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:58 PM

Maybe Ron prefers people who ask less inconvenient questions.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:51 PM

Wow Karmal, I'm off to carbo load and start marathon training.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:43 PM

Meh... my grandma neighbor has tremendous chronic stress - she is alone because her son and husband died when she was in 40ies. She has 101 now. She thinks chronic stress is responsible :)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:41 PM

58 year old Sisson, carbloading mofo for many decades. Did shifting his fuel mix allow him to look like this, or was it inevitable?..http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/MDA2008/MDA2010/Marknewspaper.jpg

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:27 PM

I can't bring myself to use looks to evaluate anything. Mark Sisson ran thousands of miles and supposedly ate like crap most of his life, and looks freaking incredible at age 58. (This is not disagreeing with you, just another opportunity to wonder where Sisson has found this fountain of youth) The one thing that bar none seems to affect the way you look as you age is chronic stress.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:15 PM

I'm pretty skeptical about less glucose metabolized from diet leading to more insulin sensitivity. The people eating more carbs tend to have better insulin sensitivity than people eating low carb based upon various studies that Jaminet and Carbsane have reviewed. Even Peter at Hyperlipid seems to say that it is common knowledge that low-carbers will have higher fasting glucose than carb eaters.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 02:07 PM

Oh please! Quilt claims his goal is ultimately to change his profession. I don't see how routinely dissing them accomplishes that goal. Or posting here, this bastion of discourse amongst MD's, for that matter.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:40 PM

Ah, yes, nice Beth... if we are thinking about the same stuff (that, per Rosedale, Dep Gen is not important because of selection of reproduction vs longevity)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:40 PM

Ah, yes, nice Beth... if we are thinking about the same stuff (that, per Rosedale, Gen X is not important because of selection that aims toward reproduction and not longevity)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:29 PM

Nah, he will probably ban me again when he wakes up :P

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 08, 2011
at 01:03 PM

Does anyone else see the irony in this comment?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 12:37 PM

Plus one.......

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 12:35 PM

Andre people who wants certain things are not open to a new way of seeing things. Instead of worrying about what you can not do focus in on those you can help who really want it. I am assuming this is why ron is in india. There is a large movement here now that is also fed up. They just dont populate this site

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 12:28 PM

Actually this is not true when you do the reset. We cant single out carbs alone. It has to be put in context of the concominant protein and fat intake. When you do the reset people are shocked at how their cravings and satiety get demolished sans carbs. This is how we use the nucleus of the solitary tract of the vagus to reset the hypothalamus.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 08, 2011
at 11:42 AM

I see majkinetor has recreated their profile. So banning just means losing your rep points?

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on November 08, 2011
at 11:21 AM

From OS X's dictionary widget: terroir |terˈwär| noun the complete natural environment in which a particular wine is produced, including factors such as the soil, topography, and climate. • (also goût de terroir |go͞o də|)the characteristic taste and flavor imparted to a wine by the environment in which it is produced. ORIGIN French, land, from medieval Latin terratorium .

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 08, 2011
at 09:46 AM

@Lee - does that still apply no matter how silly the statements in question are?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 09:29 AM

Nice dude, nice....

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 08, 2011
at 08:46 AM

@animalcule - They would prefer that you become skinny and feel like shit rather than question their dogma. That is guru doctors for you, they don't bother to listen.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 08, 2011
at 08:46 AM

@animalcule - They would prefer that you live become emaciated and feel like shit rather than question their dogma. That is guru doctors for you, they don't bother to listen.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 08, 2011
at 07:43 AM

I was kidding about doing a biopsy. We are both talking leptin resistance, but i believe you are confusing receptor defects with resistance. Amgen bailed because of leptin resistance, not receptor defects. Most hormone resistance is not from defects in the receptor.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:17 AM

Thank you majkinetor, Quilt and others for your participation

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:17 AM

Now we got our guns aimed in the right direction...like the march on Wall Street we must march on the ADA.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:14 AM

Dr. Rosedale keeps repeating that he views the hormonal problems associated in the body as "mis-communication"...they are simply not being heard properly. We have to re-establish proper communication to re-establish health. Whenever Dr. Rosedale speaks, some people seem to be "Dr. Rosedale resistant". He keeps saying the same thing over and over yet it is not getting through. How do we increase sensitivity to Dr. Rosedale's message? I am pondering...

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:12 AM

You're afraid of raising leptin because you might impair leptin sensitivity. It is better to leptin and lose than to have never leptin'd at all.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:08 AM

Chris...What I am saying, is the less glucose one has to metabolize from diet, the less likely to raise insulin and leptin, impair insulin and leptin sensitivity, less likely to cause damage from glycaton, less likely to reduce genetic expression of maintenance and repair, less likely to accelerate the chronic 'diseases of aging'..and I have studied this a bit myself.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:06 AM

Yes carbohydrate restriction and lower body fat levels both lead to lower leptin levels, which make you hungrier so you don't starve to death. Leptin levels matter.

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:41 AM

Yes, context in this matter is indeed important, that's why I asked about your regular person with a good body comp ('Athletic' body fat depending on sex), not diabetics in active ketoacidosis who have 2% bodyfat, or any other health conditions that produce severe emaciation.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:30 AM

I look forward to reading it :-)

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on November 08, 2011
at 04:46 AM

(con't) when they write blogs, that is their choice. Stooping to constant criticism which is NOT on the basis of content is just that: stooping. And it is ignorant, small, mean spirited stooping and amounts in this case to just another small minded "ism." I am not a reader of the blog, though I have read it several times, and I would not and do not choose the medically based suggestions as described for myself. But I am certainly able to separate form from content and to discern when something that is easily fixed by the majority is highly likely to not be so easily fixable by some.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:40 AM

...........+1 mem. You get it.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:40 AM

If Quilt was here, I know what he would say.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on November 08, 2011
at 04:35 AM

And while I'm at it, I'm revolted by the incessant bashing of someone who writes a blog with free information for all, and is held up incessantly for ignorant criticism of spelling and grammatical errors. In this world, it is NOT uncommon for people with superior intelligence and educational attainment to also have brain based language differences, which inspite of sometimes excellent remediation, persist, especially in written language. These people almost invariably have people in their work places or for formalized writing, who assi with management in this area. If they choose not to do so

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:28 AM

Nice try mem, but your profile is not being deleted :) At least, I don't think so.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on November 08, 2011
at 04:18 AM

I find it hilarious that someone who pointedly fingered only older people at AHS as having red faces, and therefore dietary problems and referred in a thread on PH to Fred Hahn having an "alcoholic" red face is getting arsed about a kitchen comment! And then there's the "healthy eating beautiful people" thread where Patrik lost no words in essentially calling Shari an ignorant dufus. Abusive? Aggressive? Mean spirited? Sexism? Ageism? Erm, whatever is the difference, pray tell? Yes, delete my profile.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:02 AM

Travis no not yet. And animal I have some people who are ultra lean who are ultra sick......context my friend context. Lean is but on variable.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:00 AM

true .....I think my position post Leptin RX will clear up some misconceptions here.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:53 AM

one can certainly tell if a receptor is not working......by their clinical response. This is why Amgen bailed on synthetic leptin. They realized very few cases had to do with leptin levels.....it had to do with a defective receptor. 600 million gamble failed. Many steroid receptor problems are obvious by a lack of a clinical response. And Ron.....no one will ever do a stereotactic biopsy of the arcuate nucleus. That is not feasible neurologically. And if one did the biopsy likely would not help because of sample size.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:43 AM

Good job Patrik. Melissa I'm really sorry you were attacked like that. Misogynists suck.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:25 AM

Taking it another direction: I love my body and I want it to last a long time. Should I be apologizing to my body for increasing its blood glucose 0.01%? Or does love mean never having to say you're sorry?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:23 AM

What I don't understand is the dose-response relationship. I'm (pretty?) sure that Dr. Rosedale is saying that no amount of glucose in the blood is 100% benign, which may technically true. It's like saying that living is actually just the slow process of dying. But no molecule is really benign or else it would not display chemical reactivity. Taking a page from Paul Jaminet, I wonder if the "plateau level" of glucose intake is not talked about enough. Carb intake doesn't translate 100% to blood glucose because of homeostatic control, so perhaps we have leeway here before health is impacted?

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:22 AM

I hope I'm not being implicated in this... I was also offended by that and my vitamin C comment was an attempt to make fun of Maj because practically all he posts about is vit C on here.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:14 AM

When all you have to come at an intelligent woman are "get back in the kitchen" you are officially a DOUCHE. (I hate the term but I don't think there's worse insult for a misogynist to hear so I'll use it here.) Sorry you had to take that crap Melissa.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:13 AM

When all you have to come at an intelligent woman are "get back in the kitchen" you are officially a DOUCHE. Sorry you had to take that crap Melissa. That's just the lowest of the low right there.

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 03:10 AM

Perhaps I misunderstood you but it seems like you are saying that the presence of glucose in the blood is intrinsically toxic, and that is what I found most objectionable. Sincerely, Chris

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 03:09 AM

Hi Dr. Rosedale, I agree that driving is not a disease, but neither is hormonal sensitivity. Insulin and leptin resistance per se are not diseases because our cells need to vary their sensitivity to endocrine signals in order to maintain homeostasis. I agree with you that diabetes should not be seen simply as high blood glucose. The reason I focused on glycation in part of my comment was because the comment I had made on facebook was in response to a quote from you stating that "there is really no totally safe level of blood sugar that will not cause non-enzymatic glycation or damage."

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 03:05 AM

Hi Katherine, Thanks. I will keep that in mind too. I'll try to keep both perspectives in mind, though I'm not quite sure at this point how that will affect my blogging. :) Chris

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:02 AM

I actually found the analogies helpful.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:54 AM

Hi Chris, no offense taken. Thanks for the apology. I saw your comment posted here; not Facebook. As per your answer above; driving is not considered a disease. Also, it is acquired hormonal resistance that I feel should be the major disease, and that diabetes being diagnosed as elevated BG is archaic and results in deadly treatment. I am not sure why you focused here on glycation, though it is indeed a major form of damage that we all accumulate.

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 02:54 AM

Ok, thanks, I was trying to lighten it up and make it a little fun but I'll try not to go overboard in the future. Chris

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:28 AM

Chris I'm a huge huge fan of your work, but since Kamal brought this up I should confess I got confused by the extended analogies on that post.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:21 AM

FYI as of right now, majkinetor has been banned from PaleoHacks for abusive & aggressive behavior.

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 02:20 AM

LOL is "out of control" a good thing or a bad thing in this case?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:09 AM

I don't care how reactive carbonyls are...this extended analogy is still out of control.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:08 AM

"And besides, you can tell just by the way his unkempt carbonyls are flailing about that he's probably never held a job down for more than three months. A piece of advice: if methylglyoxal comes home for dinner, as a friendly gesture you may want to introduce him to your gun collection."

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:08 AM

And besides, you can tell just by the way his unkempt carbonyls are flailing about that he's probably never held a job down for more than three months. A piece of advice: if methylglyoxal comes home for dinner, as a friendly gesture you may want to introduce him to your gun collection.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:07 AM

"If there are any dads in the audience, you should feel your protective instincts kicking in now, because whenever you see two carbonyls paired up like this you can bet your bottom dollar someone's about to crash the glycation prom while the F3-K chaperone's fixing her hair in the bathroom."

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 08, 2011
at 01:41 AM

I bet you guys wouldn't be upvoting if I made fun of Dr. Rosedale for being a man or being old. My gender, like his age, has nothing to do with my arguments. Kitchen jokes are funny once, but they keep cropping up around me here and they've just gotten mean-spirited and annoying.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Its not your fault Chris, in private conversation on facebook you can tell anything. The problem is that such conversation found its way here and you should probably learn your friend some basic manners [ *I would suggest suspension too for unprovoked ad-hominem attack if that wouldn't put her in group with me* ]. About your response, it doesn't seem that as we age, we 'drive faster to the job', right?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Its not your fault Chris, in private conversation on facebook you can tell anything. The problem is that such conversation found its way here and you should probably learn your friend some basic manners [ *I would suggest suspension too for unprovoked ad-hominem attack* if that wouldn't put her in group with me* ]. About your response, it doesn't seem that as we age, we 'drive faster to the job', right?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:19 AM

Its not your fault Chris, in private conversation on facebook you can tell anything. The problem is that such conversation found its way here and you should probably learn your friend some basic manners [ *I would suggest suspension too for unprovoked ad-hominem attack which clearly is against the rules in FAQ, which you would think moderator should know if that wouldn't put her in group with me* ]. About your response, it doesn't seem that as we age, we 'drive faster to the job', right?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:18 AM

Its not your fault Chris, in private conversation on facebook you can tell anything. The problem is that such conversation found its way here and you should probably learn your friend some basic manners [*I would suggest suspension too for unprovoked ad-hominem attack which clearly is against the rules in FAQ, which you would think moderator should know if that wouldn't put her in group with me*]. About your response, it doesn't seem that as we age, we 'drive faster to the job', right?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 08, 2011
at 12:54 AM

Let's fund a study: PHD vs. Rosedale protocol and see where the numbers stack up. So far your study had sick people in it, so obviously their numbers are nothing compared to the Kitavans. Either way, we have no data showing the Rosedale protocol is superior for anti-aging compared to other dietary models in healthy individuals.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 12:45 AM

That really isn't that strange - for instance, you get more and more atherosclerotic with passing years to that measure that it can be used to identify your age in forensics. So you could also say that we all become cardio patients to some degree as we age.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 12:41 AM

@Matthew: You don't understand - to Rosedale, diabets is model for aging and 'disease of aging' is actually disease of 'leptin and insulin resistance' ? So yes, since everybody ages everybody is diabetic in this model.

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 12:38 AM

Hi Dr. Rosedale, I'll reply below. Chris

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 07, 2011
at 11:56 PM

I believe in what is measurable. We cannot measure repair of leptin receptors. We can measure serum leptin levels, body fat percent, with an ad lib diet, snacks included. If one loses fat, lowers serum leptin, and is not hungry, it is a very good indication of improved leptin receptor sensitivity. Without doing a biopsy of the arcuate nucleus in the hypothalamus, one has little idea if there has been repair of leptin receptors, though I agree that is goal of prime importance.

7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on November 07, 2011
at 11:50 PM

Your perspective does seem at odds with ancestral health and evolutionary biology, but responding to you with snarky anti-intellectualism isn't shedding any light on matters.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 07, 2011
at 11:48 PM

Condolences for the sad news of your diabetes diagnosis :P

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 07, 2011
at 11:35 PM

"everyone" is quite a sweeping statement to make.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:05 PM

I hope you get well! Very well!

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 07, 2011
at 07:13 PM

Quilt: Are you at your desired body fat %? What is it?

B71f5927c48413965e19da2d9367624a

(121)

on November 07, 2011
at 06:42 PM

I thought I had done it b/c I reminded myself to do it before I posted.

B71f5927c48413965e19da2d9367624a

(121)

on November 07, 2011
at 06:23 PM

Thanks for letting me know.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 07, 2011
at 05:42 PM

and according to Rosedale, I have diabeetus. How's that for bulletproof?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 07, 2011
at 05:39 PM

I'm not bulletproof. I had asthma, gerd, arthritis...I was overweight. I did quite well on keto at first, but later developed other issues.

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:58 PM

Got it, Cody. I figured as much. Thanks.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:56 PM

I can say that Dr. Kruse only says breakfast within a half hour for Leptin Resistant folks. After one is leptin sensitive, IF is fine.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:50 PM

-1 because you clearly didn't bother to read Rosedale's work.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:43 PM

snowman, the original didn't say Rosedale or have a quote mark. That's why it was confusing. Phoenix edited it and put those there, as you can see by looking at his edit.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:41 PM

Wouldn't a protocol that decreases leptin decrease overall satiety as well, assuming the person's arcuate nucleus or whatever is getting the signal? Doesn't carbohydrate restriction artificially decrease the hypothalamus' perception of energy (in the form of fat) stores?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:40 PM

Wouldn't a protocol that decreases leptin decrease overall satiety as well, assuming the person's arcuate nucleus or whatever is getting the signal. Doesn't carbohydrate artificially decrease the hypothalamus' perception of energy (in the form of fat) stores?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:38 PM

I think reading this thread is causing cellular terror for me.

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:18 PM

Jack: you probably cover this elsewhere in details, but: assuming absence of leptin issues has been demonstrated for a given individual, that individual proceeds with Berkhan's 16/8 IF protocol, no food between 9pm today and 1pm tomorrow. That's "no breakfast." does this raise concerns from your perspective and your experience?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 03:15 PM

Melissa, you may still need to get a few more decades under you before it starts to make sense. Right now, you're bulletproof.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 03:12 PM

Melissa, you may still need to get a few more decades under you before it starts to make sense.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 03:10 PM

Melissa, you may still need to get a few more decades under you before it starts to make sense.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 03:05 PM

I also wonder, why are you so low on Vitamin C (1000mg per day). We know that if its going to be effective, you need to at least split the dosage, if not use bigger. Yes, its still 10x larger dose then RDA but since I doubt you are concerned about RDAs, I wonder did you miss this anti-aging option or did you intentionally do it.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 03:02 PM

*... and pleasure* - Kidding aside, Melissa, I guess its not hard to recognize that Rosedale diet has nothing to do with wishes and being natural. Its a science based idea, hack, so to say, how to live longer by short circuiting some specific pathways in the body. Does it work, I don't know.. if it doesn't' it was a good and honest guess.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:59 PM

Oh, isn't that sexy... I already imagine: *"Lean, fit and leptin-sensitive woman is seeking for similarly sensitive man with interest in paleo diet, kitchen and agriculture for night walks and company".**

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:53 PM

Also to my understanding, someone who is lean is by definition a 'fat burner'. I'm interested in your point of view on this.

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:52 PM

Drs, would you say that a constitutionally lean person (say in the 'Athletic' category of BF%) is more metabolically healthy than one who has a high body fat percentage?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:51 PM

@Jeff - No, she just needs to take more kitchen.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:50 PM

@Jeff - I'm equally surprised as you.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 07, 2011
at 02:45 PM

Dr. Rosedale says that starch is unsafe even for a lean, fit, leptin-sensitive individual such as myself. It's hard for me to see him as anything more than a low-carb ideologue.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:41 PM

Body comp is all about the biology of the leptin receptor

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:35 PM

@Maj - I'm surprised you didn't suggest she take more vitamin C.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:35 PM

@fiona, I'm not sure what the difference would be for people to burn PUFAs over Sat Fats. Do they burn differently for sugar burners? For cheeses, my interpretation was that he meant cheese with a reduced fat content, i.e. low fat mozzarella. Regardless, in my experience cheese is what people should add in to gain weight and seems best avoided during weight loss. I could be wrong on all of this though.

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:03 PM

Thank you Matthew

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:28 PM

Thx Quilt, I knew I could count on you :P

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 07, 2011
at 11:41 AM

Done............

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 07, 2011
at 11:35 AM

Terroir is certainly a word. Happy now is correct.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:54 AM

Rosedale is great hacker. Respect ! Haters are always there.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:51 AM

Melissa, if sciency language is a problem, I suggest you to get back to the kitchen.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:25 AM

But, since its only for 3 weeks to speed up things, its not really that important. What is important is not to stay for it longer then that because it might cause malnutrition.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:24 AM

**I don't feel rosedale is limiting, just because you take out no fiber carbs and fruit** : You don't take just fruit and 'no fiber carbs', but non MCT SFA, and any excess protein, which is quite a lot then.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:22 AM

And how do you explain your usage of fish oil. DHA is the longest PUFA, and it induces oxidative stress more then anything else, at least in theory. http://www.clinsci.org/cs/108/0245/1080245.pdf

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:19 AM

@Ron: That is great reply. I always thought that weight loss should be achieved as a side effect of improving health status and shouldn't be ones primary goal. I would plus you but I am banned, so somebody else please press +1 for me.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:19 AM

@Ron: That is great reply. I always thought that weight loss should be achieved as a side effect of improving health status. I would plus you but I am banned, so somebody else please press +1 for me.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:16 AM

Yes, in theory its not binging, in practice it becomes binging. However, I didn't find it to be a problem. I lost 25kg by eating nuts whenever I wanted. They induce satiety quite fast for some reason....

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:15 AM

Dr, are you aware of any study that explores if ketosis can be stopped or prevented by consuming too much protein ?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:49 AM

Speaking of cellular terroir, I want to know what type of soil quilt has in his mitochondria.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:40 AM

he is just saying limit it in the first 3 weeks as it will make it easier on your body to convert from a sugar burner if carbs is what you have been mainly eating. There are many that still enjoy their meats even in the first few weeks and do great. ricotta.. mozzarella why would you have an issue with these?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:39 AM

@Animacule: I edited your comments into your answer as apparently the commenters here don't read carefully.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:35 AM

I don't feel rosedale is limiting, just because you take out no fiber carbs and fruit.. i eat a lot, and a massive variety.. The supplements help for sure speed up the process of burning fat but I have seen many do it on a tight budget and only have magnesium, potassium and fish oil and they have done fantastic. He does love nuts for sure, but he does say 8-10 nuts in an hour and if you are still hungry have the same again after an hour.. so he does not recommend binging on them.. though if i leave the bag open by my computer it is hard to stop at 10..

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:25 AM

Andre, so beautifully said.Rosedale has fought and continues for the greater good. In 1999 when his talk was transcribed and posted on the web 'insulin and it's metabolic effects' you can search it today, it's listed on endless medical and science sites and till today is still ground breaking. Mercola himself credits Rosedale for all he knows on the subject and mercola's post of this talk is almost reaching over 200,000 hits. Eric Westman, told Rosedale he was way ahead of his time and that was a decade ago. Rosedale continues to be way ahead, though most do see it until several years after.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:13 AM

Rosedale only says that in the first 3 weeks of starting the diet one should avoid Sat fats, only because they are harder to burn for a sugar burning newby, once your body becomes a fat burner then enjoy sat. fats. Of course, he lists out some oils that are not good, that are high in omega 6's which I am sure everyone agrees with .. right?? sunflower, safflower, soybean oil..

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:11 AM

@animalcule: Apparently none of the commenters can read. :)

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 07, 2011
at 07:56 AM

Very important to know how much fat and muscle you have so that if you see a weight gain or no loss at all you can confirm its lean muscle gain. But if you can see fat loss or clothes fit better its likely the gain on scale represents muscle gain.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 07, 2011
at 07:51 AM

Rosedale is not saying fish and chicken are healthier than beef or lamb. He is saying in the first 3 weeks, to become a more efficient ketone burner, limit SAT fat till you are on the beam. For more Paleo hacks: http://paleohacks.com/questions/75227/ron-rosedale-and-jack-kruse-have-two-different-approaches-which-one-is-better#ixzz1d0IWTqyz That's the way I see it too.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 07, 2011
at 07:48 AM

Maybe its cellular terrain.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 07, 2011
at 06:23 AM

Wt loss is irrelevant. Mine is a program to extend youth,therefore health. I began my program to treat deadly disease, and from my interest in the biology of aging. As such,it was imperative to control insulin,later leptin, and later mTOR. Being able to easily burn fat is a necessary condition for all health and longevity.This results in loss of extra fat,but not weight loss per se. It turns out to be an excellent fat loss diet, because of the common roots of chronic disease. It is very common,if not usual,to gain lean mass on my program secondary to the improvement in insulin signaling.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:43 AM

Terroir means land or landscape, it is a word, it is a French word, but gets some play in English because it is a fun word. It is usually used in relation to growing grapes for wine. I've been interpreting cellular terroir as meaning cellular landscape, or what happens at the cellular level.

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:02 AM

I'm with Jack on this one. Healthy longevity trumps the rest. That's my paraphrase of his remark above, so don't hold him to account. I love his irony (intended or not) that "many normal people" are interested in living long well. For what it's worth, I have never been "fat" but I am decidedly interested in staying lean, and actually getting more "lean" (defined as becoming even more of a fat-burning, less a sugar-burning) mammal.

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 07, 2011
at 03:56 AM

Nice reminder that the one-person experiment may (key word: may) hold promise for others. Thanks, Sue.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 07, 2011
at 01:44 AM

Quilt, terroir is not a word. What do you mean by cellular terroir?

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 07, 2011
at 01:15 AM

To single out a few, if I want to maintain my weight/build muscle and not feel like shit I've found it necessary to do the direct OPPOSITE of: avoiding starch, eating small meals, limiting saturated fat, eating only to satisfy hunger, eating small meals, not eating before bedtime, eating slowly, exercising after your last meal and before bed.

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 07, 2011
at 01:09 AM

Yeah, sure, but most of these recs will produce fat loss in people of any size. If you don't have fat you can afford to lose you have to modify significantly...

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 07, 2011
at 01:03 AM

fatness is only one measure of health

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:54 AM

I think their are many normal people that are quite interested in longevity. That has always been my focus. So again your perception does not meet my reality.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:52 AM

I actually love MCT. lol

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:51 AM

For me during a reset no snacking. Afterwards well.....that blog will come in the next few weeks. I am not sure how strict Ron is on this because he takes care of much sicker T2D than I do. And in some of them snacking or a 4th meal can make their management easier.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:11 AM

Tim Ferris also recommends eating within half an hour of waking. His father did it and it jump-started weight loss. He recommends 30g protein.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 06, 2011
at 11:46 PM

Tim Ferris also recommends eating within half an hour of waking. His father did it and it jump-started weight loss.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 06, 2011
at 11:43 PM

Limiting saturated fat for 3 weeks seems like an interesting idea and worth a go if it could help in improving insulin sensitivity. Plus you still get to eat some fat in the form of MCTs. Kruse likes the MCTs as well.

B71f5927c48413965e19da2d9367624a

(121)

on November 06, 2011
at 11:04 PM

@The Quilt- Would you speak to the differences between you and Rosedale having to do with snacking?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 06, 2011
at 10:07 PM

Its huge.........

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 06, 2011
at 10:07 PM

Maj pretty soon I will unload a new blog covering what to do post leptin Rx after the reset occurs. I think you maybe surprised at what changes I advocate.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 06, 2011
at 10:04 PM

Ron and I agree on most things.....where we dont agree is at the fringe of where science is right now. The CRON data in primates and humans will be out in 25-30 yrs so we will know soon who is right. The interesting thing about mTOR and IGF1 is that most articles dont talk about the surrounding cellular terroir. I think IGF1 and mTOR are bad news in people with elevated HS CRPs like T2D etc.....but I don't buy the argument that those two pathways mean bad news if the person has no baseline inflammation. I think Art DeVany and Jeff Life are two great examples of that. So was J LaLanne!

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 06, 2011
at 07:12 PM

Travis, they are arbitrary to you but they are tested clinically to be successful. No RCTs needed to see positive results.Neither is locked into conventional wisdom. The best trial is self experimentation. Do K's Protocol or Rosedale's Protocol to see if you get results you desire. If not reject both and try something else. Many have been elsewhere and tried lots of other avenues...to less than hoped for results

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 06, 2011
at 06:53 PM

Good point, Maj, if I wanna lean out I stick to three foods: bone broth, yams and green tea. That's it. Amazing how these three just suppress my hunger. Ho hum is my appetite and that's how all indigenous people around the globe survived on: limited foods that are nourishing nonetheless.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on November 06, 2011
at 06:51 PM

+1 Kruse is nutty, but it's that good kind of nutty (I think). His overall net influence is very positive.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 06, 2011
at 06:42 PM

Travis, they are arbitrary to you but they are tested clinically to be successful. No RCTs needed to see positive results. The best trial is self experimentation. Do K's Protocol or Rosedale's Protocol to see if you get results you desire. If not reject both and try something else. Many have been elsewhere and tried lots of other avenues...to less than hoped for results.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 06, 2011
at 06:40 PM

Travis, they are arbitrary to you but they are tested clinically to be successful. No RCTs need to see positive results. The best trial is self experimentation. Do K's Protocol or Rosedale's Protocol to see if you get results you desire. If not reject both and try something else. Many have been elsewhere and tried lots of other avenues...to less than hoped for results.

B71f5927c48413965e19da2d9367624a

(121)

on November 06, 2011
at 06:22 PM

The part after "Rosedale:" is directly from Ron Rosedales's website. I put quotation marks around it to show it wasn't from me.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 06, 2011
at 06:13 PM

So many of these recommendations seem utterly arbitrary.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 06, 2011
at 05:56 PM

I eat tons of SFA every day. I eat enough protein and fat in the predawn am to make it through to 5pm dinner without snacking ever. The only nut I eat are 3 Brazil nuts a week for selenium. No other as it messes with O6/O3 ratio. Weight stable at 12% BF. R sells books, K does not. They are both on the same road to optimal health for patients. No R haters here, only K haters..yet both are on the same road to optimal health. Both place leptin at the centerpiece of optimal health. They are not far apart.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 06, 2011
at 05:46 PM

more proof for the LC community that the enemy of your enemy (carbs) isn't necessarily your friend. Oh, but he's a doctor!! And he uses science-y language!

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 06, 2011
at 04:58 PM

I like these kinds of comparison questions. The trick in making them really useful, is to take great care in accurately (and succinctly) highlighting points of agreement and disagreement between the two points of view (Rosedale and Kruse in this instance). Doing so can be challenging, because the arguments of both R & K present what they sincerely believe to be facts, along with their informed opinions and what they believe to be reasonable inferences.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 06, 2011
at 04:03 PM

maybe all that vitamin C is keeping you safe ;) ha, just kidding. They're damn tasty for sure, but aside from the omega 6s (which people should really reduce until they're dialed in on a good diet), they seem to have gut irritants that I don't know enough about, but have seen to be problematic in many people.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:45 PM

TBH, nuts are my snack food choice. I eat from 30 - 60g each day, mixed ones.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:44 PM

Nice edit, Phoenix! Now it makes much more sense.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:21 PM

Our difference are these....i love sat fat especially long chain he does not. I dont think protein stimulating mTor is bad when inflammation is low and i think carbs are fine if inflammation and cortisol is low and it is yoked to the light cycle. He believes leptin levels matter i dont. I think wht is happening at the leptin receptor is all that matters. I believe in neuroplastic repair of the leptin receptor and i dont think ron has ever commented upon this. Those are the differences i see.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:16 PM

Maybe what you are trying to do is synthesize and summarize the approaches of Quilt and Rosedale? If so, I would suggest saying so explicitly, rather than claiming your synthesis to be *the* "rules"

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:16 PM

Maybe what you are trying to do is synthesize and summarize the approaches of Quilt and Rosedale? If so, I would suggest saying so explicitly, rather than claiming your synthesis to be the "rules".

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:15 PM

Maybe what you are trying to do is synthesize and summarize the approaches of Quilt and Rosedale? If so, I would suggest saying so explicitly, rather than claiming your synthesis to be *the* "rules.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:12 PM

Also, I admit to having some posts whose question element is somewhat artificial, but your putative question seems unrelated to your post.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:12 PM

snowman, there are a lot of things in this post that many would disagree with. Do you have any references for all these assertions? Maybe you should put each of them up as a question.

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16 Answers

26
149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

on November 07, 2011
at 06:59 AM

Melissa, I love you and your blog, I am a fan...but Rosedale is not saying fish and chicken are healthier than beef or lamb. He is saying in the first 3 weeks, to become a more efficient ketone burner, limit SAT fat till you are on the beam. Then, if you have no elevated ferritin, eat lamb, beef.I have eaten with him many times as he lathered bearnaise sauce over a steak, only round 5 oz. though. Read Rosedale's work and this is all there.

On a personal note, I don't get the trashing of giants, like Rosedale,who, for over 30 years have been healing, helping, promoting aging research, fighting big pharma, pissing off most every commercial conglomerate and ignorant doctors not interested in expanding their understanding of ageing. He is the mentor to the Drs. Eades, mentor to Dr. Eric Westman, debated Dr. Dean Ornish on PBS and trashed him so bad that Ornish threatened to sue PBS if they aired the program...I have seen it.

Dr. Rosedale is not here to promote CW, far from it. He was talking insulin 25 years ago, leptin since it was discovered. While most of us here on PH were still in grammar school, he was fighting this war. Not when it is becoming popular now...but long ago when there are no support systems or comrades in arms.

He became so frustrated with the US systems and medical establishments that he retreated to India, where for the last 4 years, he has been conducting free retreats, where he has personally lost a fortune, training obese and diabetics here how to regain health. This movement sprung up only since he has been gone. He would rather be in India where people are more open to this than in the US where he has had to fight alone.

Seeing that the landscape is changing in the US, he is willing to get back in the battle. He is the ally of all here. He is a brilliant man and the debates are not over on the better ways to approach health, far from it.

So please, everyone, support getting all the players together at the next AHS meeting to roundtable and debate there, meet and discuss and not just "present". We have a seat on a movement that can change the course of health here. Lets fight together, with a sense of humor...and read each other's blogs, like Hunt Gather Love and Dr. Rosedale's.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:54 AM

Rosedale is great hacker. Respect ! Haters are always there.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 07, 2011
at 02:45 PM

Dr. Rosedale says that starch is unsafe even for a lean, fit, leptin-sensitive individual such as myself. It's hard for me to see him as anything more than a low-carb ideologue.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 03:15 PM

Melissa, you may still need to get a few more decades under you before it starts to make sense. Right now, you're bulletproof.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 03:02 PM

*... and pleasure* - Kidding aside, Melissa, I guess its not hard to recognize that Rosedale diet has nothing to do with wishes and being natural. Its a science based idea, hack, so to say, how to live longer by short circuiting some specific pathways in the body. Does it work, I don't know.. if it doesn't' it was a good and honest guess.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 03:10 PM

Melissa, you may still need to get a few more decades under you before it starts to make sense.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:05 PM

I hope you get well! Very well!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 03:12 PM

Melissa, you may still need to get a few more decades under you before it starts to make sense.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 07, 2011
at 05:42 PM

and according to Rosedale, I have diabeetus. How's that for bulletproof?

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 07, 2011
at 07:51 AM

Rosedale is not saying fish and chicken are healthier than beef or lamb. He is saying in the first 3 weeks, to become a more efficient ketone burner, limit SAT fat till you are on the beam. For more Paleo hacks: http://paleohacks.com/questions/75227/ron-rosedale-and-jack-kruse-have-two-different-approaches-which-one-is-better#ixzz1d0IWTqyz That's the way I see it too.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:25 AM

Andre, so beautifully said.Rosedale has fought and continues for the greater good. In 1999 when his talk was transcribed and posted on the web 'insulin and it's metabolic effects' you can search it today, it's listed on endless medical and science sites and till today is still ground breaking. Mercola himself credits Rosedale for all he knows on the subject and mercola's post of this talk is almost reaching over 200,000 hits. Eric Westman, told Rosedale he was way ahead of his time and that was a decade ago. Rosedale continues to be way ahead, though most do see it until several years after.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 07, 2011
at 05:39 PM

I'm not bulletproof. I had asthma, gerd, arthritis...I was overweight. I did quite well on keto at first, but later developed other issues.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:59 PM

Oh, isn't that sexy... I already imagine: *"Lean, fit and leptin-sensitive woman is seeking for similarly sensitive man with interest in paleo diet, kitchen and agriculture for night walks and company".**

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:38 PM

Pray tell, what is the BS? Define. That is a strong statement that should be backed up by equally strong evidence.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 04:40 PM

@edrice: I have those few more decades on Melissa and it doesn't make any more sense to me. Is the sky supposed to open, the sunbeams come down and a chorus of "Ah aaaaaah!" supposed to happen? @majkinetor: Why the "hater" term? Just because someone calls someone on BS doesn't mean that term applies. Speaking for myself, I don't even dislike Jack let alone hate him. I suspect socially we'd hit it off right well. I haven't even interacted with Rosedale enough to form an opinion of him personally. I'm going to go read some cosmology to get a better take. ;)

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 07:26 PM

Andre if you look at my root answer to this post you'll see some of the BS I'm talking about.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on November 15, 2011
at 04:29 AM

each post i read.. it seems so clear the ones that get it and the ones that are following tradition. Andre.. kudos to the big picture, we should join and gain strength where it is needed. I think where Rosedale is at a loss with many here is he is far too advanced in his science, proven with his patients over and over again. It is when people are sick enough, after trying many of these 'other' ways of living they come to Rosedale to get it right. He treats the disease of 'aging' which effects the root of all. Which is going beyond paleo.

20
E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 12:59 AM

Dear Dr. Rosedale,

My "hilarious" comment was an immediate thought I posted on facebook and I certainly didn't mean it as an actual response to your comments, which would require being much more thoughtful. In that sense I apologize that it made it's way back to you.

I agree that I have "some degree of leptin and insulin resistance," and thank God I do because the alternative to having "some degree" of resistance to any hormone would be infinite sensitivity. This is of course impossible to have, but insofar as one could asymptotically approach infinite sensitivity to a hormone it would probably spell complete disaster for the body as it would make it more difficult to regulate the response to these hormones.

This is somewhat analogous to saying, "Chris, like everyone else, drives slowly to work to some degree." If I drove too quickly, I'd get in a car accident, and although I'm not an expert in physics my understanding is that if I drove at a speed approaching infinitity I would spontaneously combust. Clearly if I took a day to get to work every day, I'd never get anything done, but you can't fault me for driving (or biking, or walking) at a reasonable pace consistent with traffic norms.

I don't speak out of total ignorance about hyperglycemia and AGE formation. I'm quite familiar with the concept of non-enzymatic glycation as my life is mostly consumed with reading the literature and performing original research on this topic right now. You might find this blog post of mine interesting:

Where Do Most AGEs Come From? O Glycation, How Thy Name Hast Deceived Me!

http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2011/10/where-do-most-ages-come-from-o.html

Most AGEs come from dicarbonyls, not directly from glucose. As such, targeting even normoglycemic levels of blood glucose as the primary culprit in their formation strikes me as unlikely to be very productive. I have never seen any evidence that diabetes is a "linear, no-threshold" expression of intrinsically toxic blood glucose, and it is not because I haven't searched the scientific literature for evidence that normoglycemic fluctuations in blood glucose are harmful. I have.

I don't have time to debate this extensively here, but I did want to offer a brief apology for carelessly laughing off your statement, and to clarify why I nevertheless disagree with it.

Chris

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 09, 2011
at 01:36 AM

Yup-- sick, radicool, dudical.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:07 AM

"If there are any dads in the audience, you should feel your protective instincts kicking in now, because whenever you see two carbonyls paired up like this you can bet your bottom dollar someone's about to crash the glycation prom while the F3-K chaperone's fixing her hair in the bathroom."

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 02:54 AM

Ok, thanks, I was trying to lighten it up and make it a little fun but I'll try not to go overboard in the future. Chris

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 03:05 AM

Hi Katherine, Thanks. I will keep that in mind too. I'll try to keep both perspectives in mind, though I'm not quite sure at this point how that will affect my blogging. :) Chris

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:18 AM

Its not your fault Chris, in private conversation on facebook you can tell anything. The problem is that such conversation found its way here and you should probably learn your friend some basic manners [*I would suggest suspension too for unprovoked ad-hominem attack which clearly is against the rules in FAQ, which you would think moderator should know if that wouldn't put her in group with me*]. About your response, it doesn't seem that as we age, we 'drive faster to the job', right?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:08 AM

And besides, you can tell just by the way his unkempt carbonyls are flailing about that he's probably never held a job down for more than three months. A piece of advice: if methylglyoxal comes home for dinner, as a friendly gesture you may want to introduce him to your gun collection.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:08 AM

Chris...What I am saying, is the less glucose one has to metabolize from diet, the less likely to raise insulin and leptin, impair insulin and leptin sensitivity, less likely to cause damage from glycaton, less likely to reduce genetic expression of maintenance and repair, less likely to accelerate the chronic 'diseases of aging'..and I have studied this a bit myself.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:19 AM

Its not your fault Chris, in private conversation on facebook you can tell anything. The problem is that such conversation found its way here and you should probably learn your friend some basic manners [ *I would suggest suspension too for unprovoked ad-hominem attack which clearly is against the rules in FAQ, which you would think moderator should know if that wouldn't put her in group with me* ]. About your response, it doesn't seem that as we age, we 'drive faster to the job', right?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:09 AM

I don't care how reactive carbonyls are...this extended analogy is still out of control.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:23 AM

What I don't understand is the dose-response relationship. I'm (pretty?) sure that Dr. Rosedale is saying that no amount of glucose in the blood is 100% benign, which may technically true. It's like saying that living is actually just the slow process of dying. But no molecule is really benign or else it would not display chemical reactivity. Taking a page from Paul Jaminet, I wonder if the "plateau level" of glucose intake is not talked about enough. Carb intake doesn't translate 100% to blood glucose because of homeostatic control, so perhaps we have leeway here before health is impacted?

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:12 AM

You're afraid of raising leptin because you might impair leptin sensitivity. It is better to leptin and lose than to have never leptin'd at all.

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 03:10 AM

Perhaps I misunderstood you but it seems like you are saying that the presence of glucose in the blood is intrinsically toxic, and that is what I found most objectionable. Sincerely, Chris

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:25 AM

Taking it another direction: I love my body and I want it to last a long time. Should I be apologizing to my body for increasing its blood glucose 0.01%? Or does love mean never having to say you're sorry?

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:15 PM

I'm pretty skeptical about less glucose metabolized from diet leading to more insulin sensitivity. The people eating more carbs tend to have better insulin sensitivity than people eating low carb based upon various studies that Jaminet and Carbsane have reviewed. Even Peter at Hyperlipid seems to say that it is common knowledge that low-carbers will have higher fasting glucose than carb eaters.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:28 AM

Chris I'm a huge huge fan of your work, but since Kamal brought this up I should confess I got confused by the extended analogies on that post.

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 02:20 AM

LOL is "out of control" a good thing or a bad thing in this case?

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:54 AM

Hi Chris, no offense taken. Thanks for the apology. I saw your comment posted here; not Facebook. As per your answer above; driving is not considered a disease. Also, it is acquired hormonal resistance that I feel should be the major disease, and that diabetes being diagnosed as elevated BG is archaic and results in deadly treatment. I am not sure why you focused here on glycation, though it is indeed a major form of damage that we all accumulate.

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 07:14 PM

Paleo 2.0, yes in healthy people consuming more carbohydrate makes one more carbohydrate tolerant, as would be expected from the many other cases in which the body appropriately adjusts to the environment. Kamal, There is no need to apologize because raising your blood glucose by 0.01% is like saying "I love you." Jack and Travis, thank you. At the time I wrote it, I got a number of positive comments and in my experience with teaching, a little goofing off is productive if it gets the point across because it helps keep people's attention to an otherwise tedious subject. Sincerely, Chris

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:08 AM

"And besides, you can tell just by the way his unkempt carbonyls are flailing about that he's probably never held a job down for more than three months. A piece of advice: if methylglyoxal comes home for dinner, as a friendly gesture you may want to introduce him to your gun collection."

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Its not your fault Chris, in private conversation on facebook you can tell anything. The problem is that such conversation found its way here and you should probably learn your friend some basic manners [ *I would suggest suspension too for unprovoked ad-hominem attack* if that wouldn't put her in group with me* ]. About your response, it doesn't seem that as we age, we 'drive faster to the job', right?

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:02 AM

I actually found the analogies helpful.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Its not your fault Chris, in private conversation on facebook you can tell anything. The problem is that such conversation found its way here and you should probably learn your friend some basic manners [ *I would suggest suspension too for unprovoked ad-hominem attack if that wouldn't put her in group with me* ]. About your response, it doesn't seem that as we age, we 'drive faster to the job', right?

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 03:09 AM

Hi Dr. Rosedale, I agree that driving is not a disease, but neither is hormonal sensitivity. Insulin and leptin resistance per se are not diseases because our cells need to vary their sensitivity to endocrine signals in order to maintain homeostasis. I agree with you that diabetes should not be seen simply as high blood glucose. The reason I focused on glycation in part of my comment was because the comment I had made on facebook was in response to a quote from you stating that "there is really no totally safe level of blood sugar that will not cause non-enzymatic glycation or damage."

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:50 PM

Ha! ol' CMast is here! Excellent. I thought those analogies were quite creative. Sounded like Chris was just goofing off for a moment. No harm in that.

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 07:11 PM

Dear Dr. Rosedale, Thank you for your clarification. Sincerely, Chris

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:12 PM

Let me just state that there are far too *few* ridiculous analogies in the paleosphere. Everyone should post at least one per day. In fact, it's a bit like...[CENSORED BY KAMAL]

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 07:45 PM

In case it wasn't clear, I meant Chris's very involving analogy was out of control in a GOOD way. Does that make sense? It's like if Chris was a turtle, and his blog was a tropical island, and he was trying to find a good place to find shade...

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 10:34 PM

Kamal, don't worry I'm feelin' you. You meant it was sick, right? :)

17
1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

on November 06, 2011
at 11:22 PM

I apologize for having to give only a short clarification and reply at the moment.. I am currently on a flight with just my iPad... As far as saturated fat..it has been quite clearly shown that the ease of burning saturated fats is directly correlated with chain length. I don't have citations with me but I believe that I had posted some for a prior question or comment on this site. (Long chain)saturated fats have also long been shown to impair insulin sensitivity.. See articles by Storlein. However, these studies like most all nutrition studies are done on high carb adapted individuals. It has been shown by me and others that it takes several weeks to adapt well to a very low (non fiber) carb, higher fat diet, especially when protein is also kept in moderation, therefore reducing alternate gluconeogenic substrates. This is why I recommend reduced long chain sat fats for the first few weeks. It seems to make the all important transition easier MCTs are great always.

My diet arose almost 2 decades ago to best treat diabetics and CV patients as models for accelerated aging. it also became very clear to me then that we all have nearly the same metebolic problems that they do. we all have some degree of insulin and leptin resistance, some degree of vascular damage, etc.; we all age the same way, and what would be best for them would be best for us all, not just for diabetes, heart and vascular disease, excess fat loss, and even cancer, but to treat what I feel very robust science is showing to be a major root that helps to determine the rate of aging itself...nutrient sensing hormones tying into allocation of energy and genetic expression of maintenance and repair vs. cellular reproduction. After testing many hundreds of insulins and leptins, I have found my diet to be the best at keeping these major nutrient sensing hormones low.

As far as protein, I saw quite clearly when I started treating diabetics,that high protein would not lower blood glucose near as much as higher fat. Later, it has appeared clear that a high protein diet would elevate the other major nutrient sensor, mTOR, inhibiting benefits of caloric restriction, and possibly contributing to cancer. I introduced this concept in a talk I gave perhaps now over 5 years ago... http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2010/05/07/ron-rosedale-protein-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/

I believe that what I have been recommending now for 2 decades, a low non-fiber carbohydrate, higher fat, moderate protein to meet needs only diet, is being shown to be the best and healthiest diet. Newer science including that of leptin, mTOR, and the biology of aging only has served to support this. The other original low carb approaches have all seemed to modify their original recommendations to more approach mine.

I am being told "to turn off all electronic devices" for our landing, so I'll perhaps comment more later. Thanks for the interest.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 06, 2011
at 11:43 PM

Limiting saturated fat for 3 weeks seems like an interesting idea and worth a go if it could help in improving insulin sensitivity. Plus you still get to eat some fat in the form of MCTs. Kruse likes the MCTs as well.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:52 AM

I actually love MCT. lol

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:41 PM

Wouldn't a protocol that decreases leptin decrease overall satiety as well, assuming the person's arcuate nucleus or whatever is getting the signal? Doesn't carbohydrate restriction artificially decrease the hypothalamus' perception of energy (in the form of fat) stores?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:40 PM

Wouldn't a protocol that decreases leptin decrease overall satiety as well, assuming the person's arcuate nucleus or whatever is getting the signal. Doesn't carbohydrate artificially decrease the hypothalamus' perception of energy (in the form of fat) stores?

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:06 AM

Yes carbohydrate restriction and lower body fat levels both lead to lower leptin levels, which make you hungrier so you don't starve to death. Leptin levels matter.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 12:28 PM

Actually this is not true when you do the reset. We cant single out carbs alone. It has to be put in context of the concominant protein and fat intake. When you do the reset people are shocked at how their cravings and satiety get demolished sans carbs. This is how we use the nucleus of the solitary tract of the vagus to reset the hypothalamus.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:58 PM

In lean people, leptin levels are important. Drops in leptin are correlated to increased hunger with weight loss, leptin scales with bodyfat... it would be pretty stupid of the body to evolve an anti-starvation hormone if the circulating levels of that hormone weren't important.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 09, 2011
at 05:38 PM

curious about the nuts too, im all on with rosedales recommendations for everyone, not just someone in need of losing weight. i personally can vouch for MUFAs, MCTs and good PUFAs working with my body way better than a satfat load. its just hard to find good sources of the right fats...i cant find red palm oil ANYMORE!!!!

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 09, 2011
at 02:36 AM

Im my view the receptor is damaged by PUFA dietary content.....and the cravings are exacerbated by the brainstem tracts on NPY. This is how carbs tie in. To neutralize npy i demolish thenresponse with protein or fat loads at dawns light when the hypocretins signal its time to feed. This signal cause the hypothalamus to relearn what dawns light realy means.

B71f5927c48413965e19da2d9367624a

(121)

on November 09, 2011
at 02:31 PM

@Dr. Rosedale - You encourage nut consumption, while Dr. Kruse personally avoid nuts in general except macadamian and pistacios due to the PUFA content. Would you explain your view?

12
5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 07, 2011
at 12:29 AM

What it really distills down to is this; if a diet or nutritional protocol allows one to better burn fatty acids or ketones as a primary fuel, then it is likely to be quite healthy. If it forces one to burn glucose, then it is not. Eating more protein than necessary for maintenance and repair, thus allowing for gluconeogenesis, glucose burning, and elevated mTOR will not be healthy.

Eating easily burned shorter chain saturated fats is great,. Eating longer chain harder to burn saturated fats when one is not adapted to burning them, will not be so good.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:22 AM

And how do you explain your usage of fish oil. DHA is the longest PUFA, and it induces oxidative stress more then anything else, at least in theory. http://www.clinsci.org/cs/108/0245/1080245.pdf

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:15 AM

Dr, are you aware of any study that explores if ketosis can be stopped or prevented by consuming too much protein ?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 06:48 PM

I'm in agreement with Rosedale on the sat fats but would say it's probably a good idea while you're losing weight at any sort of clip. Why? However I disagree on the reason (although in his interview with Jimmy Moore his explanation was closer to my thinking). A large portion of our body fat FA's are LCSFA so they are not in short supply. Eat more, burn less of your endogenous supply. Once your fat metabolism has been corrected the composition of your fat consumption won't make much difference, and perhaps some sat fat may be more beneficial.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 03:05 PM

I also wonder, why are you so low on Vitamin C (1000mg per day). We know that if its going to be effective, you need to at least split the dosage, if not use bigger. Yes, its still 10x larger dose then RDA but since I doubt you are concerned about RDAs, I wonder did you miss this anti-aging option or did you intentionally do it.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 09, 2011
at 05:33 PM

likey carbsane... need to go find that interview...

10
24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 02:11 PM

What these two different approaches have in common is a total lack of supporting science. And yes, when you are bucking so-called "conventional wisdom" and interested in being about science and not opinions, or touting how you are bridging the gap between science and medicine, you better darned well bring it. In Rosedale's case, he says carbs "spike" leptin and this leads to leptin resistance. This is demonstrably false. Leptin is not "spiked" by dietary intake of any macronutrient. He is also of the mistaken belief that consuming carbohydrates causes insulin resistance, when the opposite has been shown to be the case time and again in controlled metabolic ward contexts where the results can be verified. In Kruse's case, I've yet to see any explanation for his arbitrary recommendations. Big protein breakfast? Does this timing and high protein intake alter leptin receptor responsiveness? No snacking? Same question. How do you know you've healed your broken receptors? What epigenetic switches is he talking about and on what levee in Kruse-terroir can we find out what tests he does and how they are interpreted in the context of leptin? There actually is some science out there linking high protein diets with improved leptin sensitivity, but one comes across these things not because of but in spite of Kruse's claims. IGF-1 is a negative in his Quilt Survivability equation, WTF one makes of that!

In his response to Paul Jaminet, Rosedale's own references failed to support his absurd notion that we are all diabetic. Yes, it is absurd. The mortality rates were lowest with fasting glucose levels flirting with a prediabetes diagnosis in one study he used to state his case. There were no differences in all cause mortality for the bottom 90% of subjects in 2hr glucose in another. But at least he puts up relevant cites (for the most part) rather than sending you out to do your own homework to substantiate his claims rather than at least listing one or two from which he developed his theories.

Both of these plans will work for some for the same reasons any low carb plans work for some, or a restrictive plan of any sort works for some.

As for longevity, well, I don't see how having the metabolism of an aging person (e.g. becoming an insulin resistant, lower RQ fat burner) will enhance lifespan. And speaking of age, I'm sorry but as with Dr. Davis, I'm just not seeing some sort of youthful vitality in these folks that I don't see in many of my carb-eating friends of presumably similar age. How old are these guys anyway? I'm not saying they look old or young or whatever, they just don't look any different. And if this metabolic slowing with age is somehow protective and life extending, how does one explain these ROSsified, carb burning nonagenarian spring chicks??

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:41 PM

58 year old Sisson, carbloading mofo for many decades. Did shifting his fuel mix allow him to look like this, or was it inevitable?..http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/MDA2008/MDA2010/Marknewspaper.jpg

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:51 PM

Yeah, I'm not sure this whole thing is quantifiable or even identifiable. Stress alone isn't 100% causative, but I'd bet that the stress response is pretty darn causative. Some respond to everyday life by freaking the heck out, while some respond to crazy life events by taking a deep breath and proceeding with life. On the other hand, my mom freaks the heck out all the time, yet she looks maybe ten years older than me.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 07:02 PM

@cliff, I find the desired lowering of body temp disturbing. I probably suffer from some borderline thyroid deficiency and am often colder than those around me. It's not a comfy state, and saps energy as well.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 03:34 PM

I would also mention that I know of many people who grew up in rough times (real poverty, war zones and such), engaged in bad habits like smoking and excessive drinking and remain relatively youthful looking for their age. So again I think it's this insistence that some diet that does something to one hormone or its receptors or your sensitivity to it that doesn't quite cut it for me, and if this were true then there should be some outward indication IMO. Or I would hope so, anyway.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 07:00 PM

But, I must say, at least Sisson does look the part. Which really is more than I can say for a number of folks out there hawking their healthy diet/lifestyle plans.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 03:25 PM

I happen to agree Kamal. Most who meet me -- including both my young classes (I'm older than most of their Moms) and older classes (I teach a lot of those returning to school in their 40's, 50's and older these days) -- generally place me at around 10 years or so younger than I am. This despite years of that so-called skin ager (tanning) and crappy diet for so many years. I guess my point is that if there's something to this longevity angle, then it should show, right? Rosedale has been at this for 20 years. Davis talks about glycation and wrinkles so ... whassup with his wrinkles?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:43 PM

Meh... my grandma neighbor has tremendous chronic stress - she is alone because her son and husband died when she was in 40ies. She has 101 now. She thinks chronic stress is responsible :)

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:09 PM

Regarding Sisson, I think a great deal of his health is *because of* his activity, not in spite of it. He supplies his body with all necessary raw materials, eats plenty of carbs *and* eats a lot of fat and can do that because he's so active. There is no dietary substitute for activity. Evolution has assumed that sedentary=dead so we've never evolved to cope with it.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:33 PM

Rosendale also believes we should lower our metabolism for longevity but the science doesn't seem to necessarily agree http://cmbi.bjmu.edu.cn/news/0406/6.htm

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 10:17 PM

Cody you/Jack/whoever can't have it both ways. Jack seems to say that if you're LS, calories don't count b/c your mitochondria go into overdrive and it all goes flying out the window of thermogenesis. Does this make you warmer or cooler?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 10:23 PM

Bottom line, you've been at this for 20 years. You claim to bridge the gap between science and medicine. There should be one good review article in your arsenal to substantiate your basic claims: (1) IR is caused by carbs and insulin spikes, and (2) LR is caused by carbs and leptin spikes. C'mon ... humor me and cite just one of each for me, OK? That is not asking for much.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 06:59 PM

Thanks Travis, and I agree, I think activity has a lot to do with it. My problem with Sisson is that he's not some guy who underwent some paleo transformation from some unhealthy sedentary Family Guy sort -- or even just the average dude carrying around a 6-pack concealer and love handles. He was an elite conditioned athlete. Combine that with good genes, a tan and hair color, and who knows what else (no I'm not accusing him of more nefarious methods a la Durian Rider, but there are lots of minor cosmetic and non-surgical means of turning back the clock these days).

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:27 PM

I can't bring myself to use looks to evaluate anything. Mark Sisson ran thousands of miles and supposedly ate like crap most of his life, and looks freaking incredible at age 58. (This is not disagreeing with you, just another opportunity to wonder where Sisson has found this fountain of youth) The one thing that bar none seems to affect the way you look as you age is chronic stress.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:51 PM

Wow Karmal, I'm off to carbo load and start marathon training.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:07 PM

Excellent post, Evelyn. Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. It'd be hard to imagine there being no outward signs of vitality. Sure, you could claim that all of your blood sample metrics are optimal, but that ought to slow the clock down, right? As unscientific as it is, I think as long as someone feels great and has tons of energy all the time from waking until they go to sleep (with plenty of activity, weights etc.), at least their macro ratio is probably fine. I can't replicate that feeling with LC, so I have a hard time believing that longevity gets in the way of vitality.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 09, 2011
at 08:31 PM

@evelyn..Leptin is raised/spiked by glucose...very solid science that I have tested myself also. How many leptin's have you tested? Raising BG from carbs is a major cause of Insilin resistance. I could cite many articles as I have already, that you ignore. I will be responding to Paul's post and studies that you cite when back from traveling. They are very poor examples that merely show improvement compared to one eating a standard poor diet, I.e. just better that bad. Your objections appear to be based less on science and more on some unknown vendetta.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 09, 2011
at 08:12 PM

@cliff and Evelyn.. I didn't say we should lower our metabolism; we should improve the quality of our metabolism. I am talking about running cooler just as a car engine does when working well. This is not hypothyroidism.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 09:15 PM

That should read "how many studies" not "now many ..." And I do think it is an important distinction to make between "spiking" -- as in a postprandially-linked response, and some delayed response. Fasting/basal insulin is not related to carbs either. Nor do carbs cause insulin resistance by spiking insulin.

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 10, 2011
at 12:09 AM

20 years ago when I proposed this about insulin and later leptin, there were no articles...that is what happens when one breaks new ground, and proposes new theoriesx. Since then there have been many supporting articles published. I have already cited some and inferred from others (i.e. glucose impaires the function of islet cells) and will cite more when back on my main computer, but only if you then admit publicly that you read and understood them and that you were wrong, as you understand that the best anyone can do is lend robust evidence. There is no such thing as proof

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on November 09, 2011
at 12:42 AM

Those of us who have successfully completed the leptin RX reset experience an inner warmth so much that heretofore sleeping in a cold room required lots of covers. Now many of us sleep with no covers and during the day do not need coats, whereas co workers do.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 09, 2011
at 01:38 AM

You've discovered the miracle of DNP? (note: not condoning the miracle of DNP)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 09, 2011
at 09:53 PM

Evelyn, I do not believe that they are making opposing claims. If I remember correctly, Kruse says you will FEEL warmer while your body temp actually goes down slightly. Nice try.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 10, 2011
at 05:53 PM

Anyone have access to the full text of this recent study? *A higher-carbohydrate, lower-fat diet reduces fasting glucose concentration and improves β-cell function in individuals with impaired fasting glucose* http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21944267

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 12:44 PM

@Dextery: Well then the two programs purported to work on leptin resistance, make opposing claims. Kruse is hot, Rosedale is not. OK, I get it now.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 10, 2011
at 04:15 PM

It is also clear to me you did not do me the courtesy of reading my links before responding. What say you about the study showing NO leptin spiking? I realize you like to tout your groundbreaking, but around 20 years ago was when the venerable JD McGarry published his infamous Minkowski paper. A link to that and a series of well controlled studies demonstrating improved glucose tolerance on very high carb diets is included here: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/10/diabetes-treatment-new-dogma-old-dogma.html I would appreciate a reciprocal consideration of evidence provided.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 09:12 PM

@Ron: None. Now many studies can you cite where a third party measured leptin responses to different diets? Apparently none. The blog posts I linked to in my answer here cite studies. Look at the graphics. There's NO spiking. Ever so slight differentials in the several hours later levels. Leptin peaks overnight. I have not ignored anything you've cited to me here. Ahh ... vendetta? LOL. Did you read my responses? Apparently not. Send Fiona on over to check it out.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 10, 2011
at 04:03 PM

Please spare me the condescending attitude. I am perfectly capable of reading and understanding the scientific literature. I would appreciate you listing them all in one place as this site is difficult to navigate/search to find the other few which, as I recall, were not relevant. Diabetic hyperglycemia does *further* damage the beta cells. We're talking normal glucose spikes doing so. There's no evidence of that.

9
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 06, 2011
at 05:57 PM

Dr. Kruse and I certainly have our differences, but the comparison highlights the fact that he is very engaged with the online paleo/LC community and in "hacking"/self-experimentation. Because of that, he isn't stuck in a CW rut with regards to fish/chicken being "healthier" than beef/lamb or that "healthy fats" are mainly monosaturated and omega-3.

Edit: Where is the proof that it's easier to transition to keto without much sat fat? As far as I know and as far as my own experience, it's exactly the opposite.

Also how can you "feel good about yourself" if you aren't allowed to ever have bacon again?

Sincerely,

Your diabetic PH moderator who is too young to know anything and should get back into the kitchen because she's a woman.

ron-rosedale-and-jack-kruse-have-two-different-approaches.--which-one-is-better?--why?--and-under-what-circumstances?

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on November 06, 2011
at 06:51 PM

+1 Kruse is nutty, but it's that good kind of nutty (I think). His overall net influence is very positive.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:50 PM

-1 because you clearly didn't bother to read Rosedale's work.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 07, 2011
at 11:48 PM

Condolences for the sad news of your diabetes diagnosis :P

9
64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:17 PM

They both have a lot of great things to offer the standard american dieter, however I have a couple of issues with Dr Rosedale's protocol....

DON???T BE AFRAID OF FAT--BUT EAT GOOD FAT This is a high fat diet, so if you are hungry, you may eat fat! But stick to the good fats found in nuts, avocados, fatty fish, olives, etc.

Nuts? I don't know anyone who actually thrives on nuts, they seem more like a food people enjoy and eat as many as they can without having trouble.

LIMIT SATURATED FAT FOR THE FIRST THREE WEEKS When you want to lose weight, what you really want to lose is saturated fat. So stop eating it, at least for the first three weeks you are on the meal plan. Pass on the beef, pork, lamb and most dairy products and eat primarily fish, nuts, chicken, vegetables and no fat cheese. After the first three weeks on the meal plan, you can eat foods that are higher in saturated fat (such as lean beef, lamb and pork) although those wishing to continue losing weight should not eat very much of these foods.

I think those wishing to lose weight can eat lean beef, or any kind of beef for that matter. Also, people that are all of a sudden giving up grains/starches/etc might have a hard time feeling satiated without red meats and sat fat... And I'd have an issue with telling someone they can eat low fat cheese.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 06, 2011
at 05:46 PM

more proof for the LC community that the enemy of your enemy (carbs) isn't necessarily your friend. Oh, but he's a doctor!! And he uses science-y language!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:45 PM

TBH, nuts are my snack food choice. I eat from 30 - 60g each day, mixed ones.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 06, 2011
at 04:03 PM

maybe all that vitamin C is keeping you safe ;) ha, just kidding. They're damn tasty for sure, but aside from the omega 6s (which people should really reduce until they're dialed in on a good diet), they seem to have gut irritants that I don't know enough about, but have seen to be problematic in many people.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:50 PM

@Jeff - I'm equally surprised as you.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 08, 2011
at 11:42 AM

I see majkinetor has recreated their profile. So banning just means losing your rep points?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 08, 2011
at 01:41 AM

I bet you guys wouldn't be upvoting if I made fun of Dr. Rosedale for being a man or being old. My gender, like his age, has nothing to do with my arguments. Kitchen jokes are funny once, but they keep cropping up around me here and they've just gotten mean-spirited and annoying.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:19 PM

If it turns into Lost, can I be Hurley?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:51 PM

@Jeff - No, she just needs to take more kitchen.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:13 AM

When all you have to come at an intelligent woman are "get back in the kitchen" you are officially a DOUCHE. Sorry you had to take that crap Melissa. That's just the lowest of the low right there.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:40 AM

...........+1 mem. You get it.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:51 AM

Melissa, if sciency language is a problem, I suggest you to get back to the kitchen.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:14 AM

When all you have to come at an intelligent woman are "get back in the kitchen" you are officially a DOUCHE. (I hate the term but I don't think there's worse insult for a misogynist to hear so I'll use it here.) Sorry you had to take that crap Melissa.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:43 AM

Good job Patrik. Melissa I'm really sorry you were attacked like that. Misogynists suck.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:35 PM

@fiona, I'm not sure what the difference would be for people to burn PUFAs over Sat Fats. Do they burn differently for sugar burners? For cheeses, my interpretation was that he meant cheese with a reduced fat content, i.e. low fat mozzarella. Regardless, in my experience cheese is what people should add in to gain weight and seems best avoided during weight loss. I could be wrong on all of this though.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:35 PM

@Maj - I'm surprised you didn't suggest she take more vitamin C.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:54 PM

It's turning into Lord of the flies around here!

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on November 08, 2011
at 03:22 AM

I hope I'm not being implicated in this... I was also offended by that and my vitamin C comment was an attempt to make fun of Maj because practically all he posts about is vit C on here.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:40 AM

he is just saying limit it in the first 3 weeks as it will make it easier on your body to convert from a sugar burner if carbs is what you have been mainly eating. There are many that still enjoy their meats even in the first few weeks and do great. ricotta.. mozzarella why would you have an issue with these?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:28 AM

Nice try mem, but your profile is not being deleted :) At least, I don't think so.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on November 08, 2011
at 04:18 AM

I find it hilarious that someone who pointedly fingered only older people at AHS as having red faces, and therefore dietary problems and referred in a thread on PH to Fred Hahn having an "alcoholic" red face is getting arsed about a kitchen comment! And then there's the "healthy eating beautiful people" thread where Patrik lost no words in essentially calling Shari an ignorant dufus. Abusive? Aggressive? Mean spirited? Sexism? Ageism? Erm, whatever is the difference, pray tell? Yes, delete my profile.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:29 PM

Nah, he will probably ban me again when he wakes up :P

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:21 AM

FYI as of right now, majkinetor has been banned from PaleoHacks for abusive & aggressive behavior.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:27 PM

There is somewhat of a difference though between saying some third party looks like Hell and in actually telling someone directly to go to Hell.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:40 AM

If Quilt was here, I know what he would say.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on November 08, 2011
at 04:46 AM

(con't) when they write blogs, that is their choice. Stooping to constant criticism which is NOT on the basis of content is just that: stooping. And it is ignorant, small, mean spirited stooping and amounts in this case to just another small minded "ism." I am not a reader of the blog, though I have read it several times, and I would not and do not choose the medically based suggestions as described for myself. But I am certainly able to separate form from content and to discern when something that is easily fixed by the majority is highly likely to not be so easily fixable by some.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on November 08, 2011
at 04:35 AM

And while I'm at it, I'm revolted by the incessant bashing of someone who writes a blog with free information for all, and is held up incessantly for ignorant criticism of spelling and grammatical errors. In this world, it is NOT uncommon for people with superior intelligence and educational attainment to also have brain based language differences, which inspite of sometimes excellent remediation, persist, especially in written language. These people almost invariably have people in their work places or for formalized writing, who assi with management in this area. If they choose not to do so

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 08, 2011
at 08:42 PM

FYI I didn't move to ban Maj. I was merely calling him out for the kitchen issues. He got banned because of a now-deleted comment that said that Chris needed to teach me a lesson. Kitchen jokes can be fully sometimes, but that's never funny.

87d6d6bb877621fc921f118c50d58043

(0)

on November 09, 2011
at 08:24 AM

@Shari: I am not misogynist. I have boobs myself :P

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 08, 2011
at 08:41 PM

Hmm, I know young people who have red faces too. I never called them old. It seems to be more common in older people.

87d6d6bb877621fc921f118c50d58043

(0)

on November 09, 2011
at 08:21 AM

@Melissa: don't say kitchen isn't funny, its just the thing that you don't have a sense of humor. We all know it is *always* funny, its a famous meme on the net, and that proves its funny *every time*: http://goo.gl/XhV2E. I didn't say Chris to teach you a lesson, that is sexist, lol, I told him to teach you manners. And banning for that shows a lot about top people of this community.

8cdd21051a8dd11a0e3dc8300f36d31d

on November 13, 2011
at 04:39 AM

Well too bad for you because I created a script that keeps recreating my account!

6
27361737e33ba2f73ab3c25d2699ad61

(1880)

on November 07, 2011
at 11:57 PM

I agree with Dr. Rosedale on this. I think the abnormal has unfortunately become the norm. One world famous endo commented to me that it is "normal" for the A1C to rise with age. Why would it be "normal" absent a change in diet? If the anything under 6 A1C is so normal, then why does diabetes expert Dr. Richard K. Bernstein see so many so-called normal people suffering from what are usually termed diabetic complications and neuropathies etc? I wonder if the ever rising A1C is only "normal" after poor fetal programming (obese diabetic mothers, toxemia etc) followed by poor infant diet (soy and sugary frankenfood baby "foods") followed by decades of excessive and highly addictive carbohydrate and sugar overloads and far too little excercise followed by disrupted circadium rhythms and lack of sleep, our addictions to computers/blue light, overwork and sky high stress hormones etc etc etc...I think it's true that most people under 30 can eat loads of crap and still have great labs. But maybe it's just the calm before the diabetes storm. When the storm hits may vary depending upon how much an individual was exposed the the aforementioned factors. I think there is a big problem with docs just looking at fasting glucose because by the time that gets into the diabetic range, there are years of too high but undetected postprandial sugars. Docs won't order A1C unless fasting is high. The high postprandials go undetected. Absent a virus or autoimmmune attack -- diabetes doesn't just happen overnight but that's how it seems when docs only rely on a yearly annual fasting glucose. Now diabetes is huge business -- the testing strips cost a fortune-- ditto for the drugs and even if it's "covered" by insurance -- society pays. Meters in all kinds of colors have become virtual fashion accessories. The ADA is largely a menace in my view.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:17 AM

Now we got our guns aimed in the right direction...like the march on Wall Street we must march on the ADA.

6
5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 07, 2011
at 11:00 PM

The major difference between my program and others, is that it was initially designed to treat the deeper roots of the chronic diseases of aging such as diabetes and heart disease, and it does this extremely well. Getting to the roots of disease reveals that all disease is a disease of communication, particularly of insulin and leptin.Treating symptoms will only serve to increase the wealth of pharmaceutical companies while making people more sick. Diabetes is not a disease of blood sugar but a disease of telling sugar what to do. Osteoporosis is not a disease of calcium. People with osteoporosis have lots of calcium in their arteries. It is a disease in telling calcium where to go. Heart disease is not a disease of cholesterol. Every living cell membrane requires cholesterol.

However, attitudes such as Masterjohn's and Mellisa's below who laugh at the notion of everyone being somewhat diabetic arise from misunderstanding and ignorance of the true underlying roots of disease. It is not ???hilarious??? that this sort of attitude is killing millions of diabetics treated with drugs and diet that worsen insulin resistance, and killing millions more with other chronic diseases.

As I have said for 2 decades and here several times, and I will repeat and keep saying until properly heard; diabetes is not a disease of blood glucose; it is a disease of hormone signaling, especially leptin and insulin. Chris and Mellisa, like everyone, has some degree of leptin and insulin resistance, and therefore some degree of the major underlying root of diabetes and other diseases of aging, and should be treated as such; the sooner, the better...

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 08, 2011
at 12:54 AM

Let's fund a study: PHD vs. Rosedale protocol and see where the numbers stack up. So far your study had sick people in it, so obviously their numbers are nothing compared to the Kitavans. Either way, we have no data showing the Rosedale protocol is superior for anti-aging compared to other dietary models in healthy individuals.

7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on November 07, 2011
at 11:50 PM

Your perspective does seem at odds with ancestral health and evolutionary biology, but responding to you with snarky anti-intellectualism isn't shedding any light on matters.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 12:41 AM

@Matthew: You don't understand - to Rosedale, diabets is model for aging and 'disease of aging' is actually disease of 'leptin and insulin resistance' ? So yes, since everybody ages everybody is diabetic in this model.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 08, 2011
at 02:58 PM

Maybe Ron prefers people who ask less inconvenient questions.

E3643af0fac0d409ba70b7ac2a7c0df7

on November 08, 2011
at 12:38 AM

Hi Dr. Rosedale, I'll reply below. Chris

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 07, 2011
at 11:35 PM

"everyone" is quite a sweeping statement to make.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 12:45 AM

That really isn't that strange - for instance, you get more and more atherosclerotic with passing years to that measure that it can be used to identify your age in forensics. So you could also say that we all become cardio patients to some degree as we age.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:14 AM

Dr. Rosedale keeps repeating that he views the hormonal problems associated in the body as "mis-communication"...they are simply not being heard properly. We have to re-establish proper communication to re-establish health. Whenever Dr. Rosedale speaks, some people seem to be "Dr. Rosedale resistant". He keeps saying the same thing over and over yet it is not getting through. How do we increase sensitivity to Dr. Rosedale's message? I am pondering...

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 12:35 PM

Andre people who wants certain things are not open to a new way of seeing things. Instead of worrying about what you can not do focus in on those you can help who really want it. I am assuming this is why ron is in india. There is a large movement here now that is also fed up. They just dont populate this site

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 09, 2011
at 07:40 PM

I was diagnosed with Dogma Resistance about a year and a half ago. Indeed there is some theory that an autoimmune response to RDA (repetetive dogma assaults) may be what's going on in my neurons. There's also evidence of increase in BS-detection receptors. Where's the evidence that carbs spike leptin that leads to leptin resistance?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 09, 2011
at 09:59 PM

What about the DOGMA that you preach? Look up Hypocrite in the dictionary, Evelyn. Here, let me Google that for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy How is that Glass House you are living in?

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 12, 2011
at 07:46 AM

@Matthew; " 'everyone' is quite a sweeping statement to make"... you are right, but not quite sweeping enough. I should have said everyone, including all primates, rodents and likely all animals. Thanks

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on November 15, 2011
at 04:20 AM

I am really loving majkinetor and Andre.. you guys get it loud and clear, big picture view. Love your posts as they add great clarity.

4
07cc4b25f4952517636dc719963db4d6

on November 08, 2011
at 09:26 AM

Can anyone else spot the Gen Y peeps and their lack of appreciation that some, in any, if not all communities, industries, fraternities, clubs, think-tanks have forgotten more than they currently know? All must understand where the movement has been to do the same for where it is at. This constant narrow mindedness and quick from the hip smack downs are not adding to a debate but a limiter to growth. By all means question. Be more careful to dismiss so quickly. You can never fast track experience.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 08, 2011
at 09:46 AM

@Lee - does that still apply no matter how silly the statements in question are?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 08, 2011
at 02:07 PM

Oh please! Quilt claims his goal is ultimately to change his profession. I don't see how routinely dissing them accomplishes that goal. Or posting here, this bastion of discourse amongst MD's, for that matter.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 08, 2011
at 01:03 PM

Does anyone else see the irony in this comment?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on November 09, 2011
at 02:04 AM

Ageism isn't OK. The science is either right or it's wrong. Rosedale absolutely knows his diet is the optimal diet. What could be more narrow-minded?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 09:29 AM

Nice dude, nice....

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 12:37 PM

Plus one.......

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:40 PM

Ah, yes, nice Beth... if we are thinking about the same stuff (that, per Rosedale, Gen X is not important because of selection that aims toward reproduction and not longevity)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 08, 2011
at 01:40 PM

Ah, yes, nice Beth... if we are thinking about the same stuff (that, per Rosedale, Dep Gen is not important because of selection of reproduction vs longevity)

2b2c2e4aa87e9aa4c99cae48e980f70d

(1059)

on November 09, 2011
at 07:08 AM

Let 's consider it progress to have a critical mass of gurus and followers pulling in generally the same direction. I don't think there is goingto be THE answer for everybody anyhow. Throwing arrows at each other is not progress; civilized discorse and ealthy disagreement is the way to go.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on November 09, 2011
at 05:54 AM

And you know that he is wrong...same/same.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on November 15, 2011
at 04:11 AM

adriana, majkinetor, lee. very well said. there are few in this forum that have been deeply engrossed in research on the same subject of deeper health, personally treated and tested hundreds of patients for over 20 years. It is quite disgusting the disrespect that goes around this forum. It is fine to each have their own opinions and be passionate about it, but the throwing of mud and elementary comments about how one holds their hands, comparing with evangelists and about their wrinkles is really beneath the whole point of this meeting place to share great science and great minds alike.

3
26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

on November 07, 2011
at 12:34 AM

Neither is much good if you're not and have never been fat, I have to say.

ETA: Most of these recs will produce fat loss in people of any size. If you don't have fat you can afford to lose you have to modify significantly.

To single out a few, if I want to maintain my weight/build muscle and not feel like shit I've found it necessary to do the direct OPPOSITE of: avoiding starch, eating small meals, limiting saturated fat, eating only to satisfy hunger, eating small meals, not eating before bedtime, eating slowly, exercising after your last meal and before bed.

ETA2: By 'fat' I did not mean obese or very large; I should have said 'high body fat percentage' or even 'not lean'. This applies to most Americans no matter if their BMI is 19 or 40.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:54 AM

I think their are many normal people that are quite interested in longevity. That has always been my focus. So again your perception does not meet my reality.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 07, 2011
at 07:13 PM

Quilt: Are you at your desired body fat %? What is it?

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:53 PM

Also to my understanding, someone who is lean is by definition a 'fat burner'. I'm interested in your point of view on this.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:19 AM

@Ron: That is great reply. I always thought that weight loss should be achieved as a side effect of improving health status and shouldn't be ones primary goal. I would plus you but I am banned, so somebody else please press +1 for me.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 07, 2011
at 01:03 AM

fatness is only one measure of health

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 07, 2011
at 01:09 AM

Yeah, sure, but most of these recs will produce fat loss in people of any size. If you don't have fat you can afford to lose you have to modify significantly...

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 07, 2011
at 11:41 AM

Done............

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:41 PM

Body comp is all about the biology of the leptin receptor

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:02 AM

Travis no not yet. And animal I have some people who are ultra lean who are ultra sick......context my friend context. Lean is but on variable.

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 07, 2011
at 01:15 AM

To single out a few, if I want to maintain my weight/build muscle and not feel like shit I've found it necessary to do the direct OPPOSITE of: avoiding starch, eating small meals, limiting saturated fat, eating only to satisfy hunger, eating small meals, not eating before bedtime, eating slowly, exercising after your last meal and before bed.

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:02 AM

I'm with Jack on this one. Healthy longevity trumps the rest. That's my paraphrase of his remark above, so don't hold him to account. I love his irony (intended or not) that "many normal people" are interested in living long well. For what it's worth, I have never been "fat" but I am decidedly interested in staying lean, and actually getting more "lean" (defined as becoming even more of a fat-burning, less a sugar-burning) mammal.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:14 PM

Quilt: If you (presumably) have maximal leptin sensitivity and body comp is all about the leptin receptor, shouldn't you effortlessly approach your desired BF%?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 08, 2011
at 08:46 AM

@animalcule - They would prefer that you become skinny and feel like shit rather than question their dogma. That is guru doctors for you, they don't bother to listen.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 07, 2011
at 07:56 AM

Very important to know how much fat and muscle you have so that if you see a weight gain or no loss at all you can confirm its lean muscle gain. But if you can see fat loss or clothes fit better its likely the gain on scale represents muscle gain.

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:41 AM

Yes, context in this matter is indeed important, that's why I asked about your regular person with a good body comp ('Athletic' body fat depending on sex), not diabetics in active ketoacidosis who have 2% bodyfat, or any other health conditions that produce severe emaciation.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 08, 2011
at 08:46 AM

@animalcule - They would prefer that you live become emaciated and feel like shit rather than question their dogma. That is guru doctors for you, they don't bother to listen.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:39 AM

@Animacule: I edited your comments into your answer as apparently the commenters here don't read carefully.

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 09, 2011
at 06:18 PM

I will say that Quilt looks very lean indeed to my eye in his photos (face, neck, arms), but 15% BF is not particularly lean for a man, so he probably still carries that extra fat in the areas of his body that underwent adipocyte hyperplasia when he was at his heaviest.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:19 AM

@Ron: That is great reply. I always thought that weight loss should be achieved as a side effect of improving health status. I would plus you but I am banned, so somebody else please press +1 for me.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on November 07, 2011
at 06:23 AM

Wt loss is irrelevant. Mine is a program to extend youth,therefore health. I began my program to treat deadly disease, and from my interest in the biology of aging. As such,it was imperative to control insulin,later leptin, and later mTOR. Being able to easily burn fat is a necessary condition for all health and longevity.This results in loss of extra fat,but not weight loss per se. It turns out to be an excellent fat loss diet, because of the common roots of chronic disease. It is very common,if not usual,to gain lean mass on my program secondary to the improvement in insulin signaling.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:28 PM

Thx Quilt, I knew I could count on you :P

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:11 AM

@animalcule: Apparently none of the commenters can read. :)

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:03 PM

Thank you Matthew

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 07, 2011
at 02:52 PM

Drs, would you say that a constitutionally lean person (say in the 'Athletic' category of BF%) is more metabolically healthy than one who has a high body fat percentage?

1a4cea849e43bd461de2842679681820

(294)

on November 08, 2011
at 06:17 AM

Thank you majkinetor, Quilt and others for your participation

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 09, 2011
at 05:30 PM

"People who saw it live are still rather shocked. It has been effortless." Quilt, you said this... my only stumped mind in this is why you so effortlessly let yourself get to 44%BF while all the time it was 'effortless' to get to 14%... i know, you want to say your leptin changed but there is so much more to it than that and defining 44%bf to 14%bf is not effortless, sorry i dont care who you are

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 09, 2011
at 06:26 PM

One more thing, sorry: my comment directly above needs the disclaimer that AFAIK all studies on leptin have found that thin people have less leptin than fat people, even if they used to be fat, and that obese people losing weight lowers circulating leptin, indicating increased leptin sensitivity

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 09, 2011
at 06:10 PM

Apoptosis = spontaneous self-destruction of cells, non-essential adipocytes = superfluous fat cells (if you are fat enough for long enough, your body will build extra fat cells). So I'm pretty sure Travis is saying that if 'the biology of the leptin receptor' is indeed the primary governor of body comp, that restoring leptin sensitivity and optimizing the metabolism should reduce body fat to ideal leanness (by unnecessary/extra fat cells being hormonally 'commanded' to destroy themselves), even in someone with a history of being super-obese like Quilt.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on November 09, 2011
at 01:27 PM

Cate Shanahan talked about adipocyte apoptosis in her podcast with Jimmy Moore. I'm hoping she's right!

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 09, 2011
at 03:20 AM

IIRC Quilt you were more than 100 lbs overweight before? I think when someone has been overfat to that degree, it's difficult if not impossible to ever be very lean, even with a restored metabolism and optimal diet. Your more garden-variety 'fat' person with 30-50 extra lbs is a different animal.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on November 09, 2011
at 05:32 PM

"wouldn't restoring leptin sensitivity lead to apoptosis of non-essential adipocytes?" can you put that in dumbdumb terms

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 09, 2011
at 06:14 PM

However that doesn't seem to be the case; most formerly obese people have persistently higher body fat than someone a similar weight who has never been fat, even with insanely strict diet, and if they succeed in achieving very low weights. Often the extra fat remains subcutaneously and is visible to the naked eye; right under the skin of the abdomen, and in the upper arms are two very common places. It's often termed 'loose skin' and can be removed with a 'tuck' - but it's not just loose skin, although that's part of it.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 09, 2011
at 02:44 AM

Yes....i started at 44% bf and am now at 14-17%.... i think im doing quite well. People who saw it live are still rather shocked. It has been effortless. I also have people who are testimonies of how simple it is. Your belief i am at maximal or optimal is your view.....my view is as i post on fb daily.....im improving my former self daily. Im quite confident in my position and my skin.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 09, 2011
at 07:30 AM

Good point, animalcule. Adipocyte hyperplasia would definitely take place at that level, even in a male. However, if leptin/its receptors are the primary governors, then wouldn't restoring leptin sensitivity lead to apoptosis of non-essential adipocytes?

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on November 09, 2011
at 06:22 PM

I will add that Quilt looks very lean indeed to my eye in his photos (face, neck, arms), but 15% BF is not particularly lean for a man, so he probably still carries that extra fat in the areas of his body that underwent adipocyte hyperplasia when he was at his heaviest. I have to agree with Travis that either a]leptin aint' everything when it comes to body comp, or, if a] is true, than b]Quilt isn't leptin-sensitive, or AS leptin-sensitive as he could be...

3
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 06, 2011
at 03:51 PM

Rosedale protocol will do the job simply because its very limiting and if you limit your food choices you gradually lose weight because you are not hungry for the same food constantly. Its hard to sustain on negative side. Limiting carbs will do the job for majority of people but he also limits SFA in the beginning to speed up things (I guess this is part of propaganda and not crucial part of weight loss, people like to see results fast). No snaking of junk foods but binging on nuts has additional role of providing good source of nutrition with virtually no down sides and lots of magnesium to combat ins. resistance.

Array of vitamins and other supplements will cover most of the eventual malnutrition.

Similar protocols that are not that limiting work equally well, I think. Supplements he recommends are probably responsible for good part of the success.

For most people, I think SFA, protein and vegetable restriction are not important that much and results will be equally good and much more sustainable. Perhaps some people who can't loose weight no matter what they try could try his protocol in full.

Most of the other points are good, like slow eating and exercise after dinner.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 06, 2011
at 06:53 PM

Good point, Maj, if I wanna lean out I stick to three foods: bone broth, yams and green tea. That's it. Amazing how these three just suppress my hunger. Ho hum is my appetite and that's how all indigenous people around the globe survived on: limited foods that are nourishing nonetheless.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:25 AM

But, since its only for 3 weeks to speed up things, its not really that important. What is important is not to stay for it longer then that because it might cause malnutrition.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 06, 2011
at 10:07 PM

Maj pretty soon I will unload a new blog covering what to do post leptin Rx after the reset occurs. I think you maybe surprised at what changes I advocate.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:24 AM

**I don't feel rosedale is limiting, just because you take out no fiber carbs and fruit** : You don't take just fruit and 'no fiber carbs', but non MCT SFA, and any excess protein, which is quite a lot then.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on November 07, 2011
at 08:35 AM

I don't feel rosedale is limiting, just because you take out no fiber carbs and fruit.. i eat a lot, and a massive variety.. The supplements help for sure speed up the process of burning fat but I have seen many do it on a tight budget and only have magnesium, potassium and fish oil and they have done fantastic. He does love nuts for sure, but he does say 8-10 nuts in an hour and if you are still hungry have the same again after an hour.. so he does not recommend binging on them.. though if i leave the bag open by my computer it is hard to stop at 10..

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 09:16 AM

Yes, in theory its not binging, in practice it becomes binging. However, I didn't find it to be a problem. I lost 25kg by eating nuts whenever I wanted. They induce satiety quite fast for some reason....

2
1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 06, 2011
at 05:21 PM

The Quilt also places importance on breakfast.

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 07, 2011
at 03:56 AM

Nice reminder that the one-person experiment may (key word: may) hold promise for others. Thanks, Sue.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 07, 2011
at 12:11 AM

Tim Ferris also recommends eating within half an hour of waking. His father did it and it jump-started weight loss. He recommends 30g protein.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 06, 2011
at 10:07 PM

Its huge.........

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:58 PM

Got it, Cody. I figured as much. Thanks.

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on November 06, 2011
at 11:46 PM

Tim Ferris also recommends eating within half an hour of waking. His father did it and it jump-started weight loss.

Medium avatar

(8239)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:18 PM

Jack: you probably cover this elsewhere in details, but: assuming absence of leptin issues has been demonstrated for a given individual, that individual proceeds with Berkhan's 16/8 IF protocol, no food between 9pm today and 1pm tomorrow. That's "no breakfast." does this raise concerns from your perspective and your experience?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 07, 2011
at 04:56 PM

I can say that Dr. Kruse only says breakfast within a half hour for Leptin Resistant folks. After one is leptin sensitive, IF is fine.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on November 08, 2011
at 04:00 AM

true .....I think my position post Leptin RX will clear up some misconceptions here.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 08, 2011
at 05:30 AM

I look forward to reading it :-)

1
2b2c2e4aa87e9aa4c99cae48e980f70d

(1059)

on November 09, 2011
at 07:18 AM

2000 views in 2 days? This has become like the Colisseum. Ler's throw them to the lions.

0
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on August 23, 2013
at 01:38 AM

Another fatal blow to the diet for longevity.........belief in this thread.

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/rej.2013.1465

What you thought would show up in primates did not.........as I predicted.

CT 4 and CT 6 predicted this result right there folks. Go re read them

Aubrey de Gray bombshell.

0
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on February 15, 2013
at 12:17 AM

So you all pounded me into the ground when I made the case in Cold Thermogenesis 4 that I was correct about MTor and primates.......

Look what popped up today: www.nature.com/nature/journal/v489/n7415/full/nature11432.html

Become aware of what you do not know........it might just kill you.

Here is the original post: http://www.jackkruse.com/the-holy-trinity-ct-4/

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on February 15, 2013
at 12:53 AM

It's always interesting how you sign in here so that you can bring threads that refer to you back to the top. Your latest blog post was, surprise, incomprehensible.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on February 15, 2013
at 03:29 AM

Quilt, first of all, this article was published last fall and was widely circulated at that time. Old news. Second, it seems to have little to do with that blog post of yours. But perhaps I'm just not thinking horizontally enough?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on August 23, 2013
at 01:39 AM

you were not.....so now I added another one.

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