3

votes

Could sprouted whole grain breads cause (or contribute to) leaky gut?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created October 14, 2011 at 2:39 PM

When I first went cold turkey VLC in Aug 2010, I had a hard time finding what to eat. I was tracking my carbs daily and keeping it in the 30-50 range for several months.

I had never previously avoided bread, but most of it was certainly not whole grain bread.

But because I wanted to keep it "healthy" while on low carb, it was suddenly commonplace for me to use the Food For Life sprouted breads as vehicles for butter with my meals. One piece is 12g net carbs, so I'd easily eat 3 pieces most days. I wasn't eating tubers or rice, so most of my carbs were coming from these sprouted breads in those early days. We ate the "7 Sprouted Grains" and "Cinnamon Raisin" bread all the time.

Might a high intake of this have given me a leaky gut?

alt text

723e9af1560a89e7d8148b386151c15d

(38)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:55 PM

If you'll happen to reintroduce buckwheat someday, try to ferment it before cooking. Ideally, you should also ferment it after cooking, e.g. using miso (you can find non-soy varieties). As for me, just fermenting buckwheat (or devzira rice) before cooking makes it much less "heavy" for digestion and my gut accepts it. + Taste and texture become milder.

4ccf5d9bba64e54fc95802fe8ae33c47

(900)

on November 14, 2011
at 01:05 AM

Right now I avoid any type of grain or seed and try to stick to very simple foods that I know won't irritate my gut like meat/fish/butter, tubers, lettuce, eggs. I might give buckwheat a try again sometime, I used to like to eat occasional buckwheat grits with yogurt.

723e9af1560a89e7d8148b386151c15d

(38)

on November 13, 2011
at 12:08 AM

High phytate and oxalate content of sprouted grains may be anoter reason. As for me, I've tried sproted whole grain (modern wheat) bread and pasta and had the same digestive problems like after ordinary ones. How about pseudograins (buckwheat, quinoa, amaranth...) - do you avoid them too?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 15, 2011
at 11:58 PM

lol. plus one for you Travis.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 15, 2011
at 06:40 PM

Adrenal fatigue, leaky gut...I wonder what the next nebulous holistic healing hoaxes will be....Maybe it won't even refer to a part of human anatomy. "Ah, here's your problem, Jack...you've got that there cloacal atrophy coupled with an upturned gizzard! Let me just cast these bones and get my Big Book of Augury and we'll have you fixed up in no time!"

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 15, 2011
at 06:39 PM

Adrenal fatigue, leaky gut...I wonder what the next nebulous holistic healing hoaxes will be....Maybe it won't even refer to a part of human anatomy. "Ah, here's your problem, Jack...you've got that there cloaca atrophy coupled with a upturned gizzard! Let me just cast these bones and get my Big Book of Augury and we'll have you fixed up in no time!"

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 15, 2011
at 06:36 PM

I should say that I did some research and there actually is somewhat legitimate *looking* bread made from potato/rice/sorghum mixtures that is safe for even people with celiac's so I suppose it's now possible to engineer bread without gluten. Depending on the ingredients, those things wouldn't necessarily be bad, though the glycemic response would be really steep still and the meals in which you put them would be less satisfying and nutritious than if tubers were in their place.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 15, 2011
at 06:33 PM

Yeah, those arrhythmias that you and I get can be triggered by the interplay between low Mg/K, high Ca, MSG, aspartame, stress and stimulants.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 15, 2011
at 05:57 PM

Dex/Q - Excuse me but I respectively ask that you stop insinuating that I lack the willpower or determination to better my health. Please don't be idiotically insulting. Walk a day in my shoes and observe my food choices and lifestyle. You'd be as perplexed as I am. If you desire to keep speaking down to me, go for it, but eventually the irritation will lead to a lack of respect for both of you. I value and appreciate your opinion, but I don't value your condescending tone. *"Denial is a tough thing for the human brain to conceptualize. Thinking changes DNA"*. Yah. Good grief indeed.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on October 15, 2011
at 04:46 PM

Good grief .

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on October 15, 2011
at 02:07 PM

Id love to hear why your respondants here can explain your results then? Occassional gluten exposure? Not quite. Most cases of leaky gut are completely asymptomoc until the major event occurs. See heart disease, stroke, atherosclerosis, and diabetes. All silent killers. This catches most by surprise. Its the rule not the exception. The responses youmgot here from travis and grenedine might just kill you. But JK you and only have to live with your labs and explain why in gods green earth are they yours? Denial is a tough thing for the human brain to conceptualize. Thinking changes DNA

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 15, 2011
at 01:45 PM

Perhaps you should hang out with people that are achieving excellent results with their leaky guts and thus health since June. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread32345.html

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 15, 2011
at 05:12 AM

Dextery - it has nothing to do with willpower friend. It has to do with belief. And I'm not talking about lack of faith. I'm talking about not knowing what to believe I should do. The amount of incredibly focused tweaking I have done with my diet in these past few months is mind bending.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 15, 2011
at 05:07 AM

Yes I think I need to get a mag supp, as I don't really have many sources in my diet. I do eat 85% dark chocolate every now and then, but I doubt that would cover me. What is the best mag supp to get?

1d0497f8781845ab371b479455bfee8e

(11157)

on October 15, 2011
at 12:11 AM

Low magnesium can also cause angina (chest pain) as well as contribute to atherosclerosis and CVD.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 14, 2011
at 10:18 PM

With your Sept Vap showing mostly Pattern B LDL and your Low HDL and very high triglycerides....Yeah, you have a leaky gut. When you heal your gut, then those numbers will reverse. You can cure it, but do you have the willpower to follow a recipe to achieve that end?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 14, 2011
at 10:13 PM

I think an actual significant permeability would have a lot of obvious symptoms. I kind of doubt that someone who's been paleo for a while would have it and I don't really see how it would relate to your TGs at all.

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on October 14, 2011
at 09:29 PM

Oh, sorry, I missed that part of your question...I do think that anything can cause leaky gut...low hcl production and failure to chew foods thoroughly are relatively easy fixes. Leaky gut happens when molecules of undigested food matter pass through the intestines, which have become weakened and permeable, which you may already know. Anyway, the answer to your question is, yes, your consumption of sprouted grain bread may have caused leaky gut.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 08:38 PM

Travis - straight Q - do you suspect that I have leaky gut?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 08:14 PM

grenadine - i understand the false fears of cholesterol numbers, but my labs actually indicated numbers that even Paleos dont want to see. Plus I do have a physical symptom... a bad feeling in my chest right around my heart area. It is strongest while fasting. It is virtually nonexistent while/after a workout. It is also virtually nonexistent after eating, regardless of what I eat. For example, last night I had it pretty strongly before dinner, than I had a 14oz New York Steak with a baked potato, a salad, and draft beer. I felt perfectly healthy upon leaving the restaurant. Weird.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on October 14, 2011
at 07:29 PM

why do you think you have a leaky gut? i hope it's not b/c Quilt said that's what's causing your high cholesterol. in any case, i reckon this bread doesn't cause leaky gut any more than any other gluten source would or could, tho it might exacerbate an existing prob. which i kinda don't think you have if high cholesterol is your only 'symptom'.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 14, 2011
at 07:03 PM

I don't know how "leaky gut" became an ubiquitous catch-all that requires a voodoo ceremony to address. All you need to do is stop eating gluten and be otherwise healthy and your body's self-repair mechanisms should do most of the work. The worse it is when you start, the longer it takes.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 14, 2011
at 07:00 PM

Yeah, we're trained from very early on to associate bread with food. I often drive by a bread factory and still enjoy the smell and I certainly like the idea of bread, but until they can make it without gluten, I'm going to avoid it. I can eat it now without any of the reactions that people describe, but I'm more concerned with chronic nutrient malabsorption. I also get hungry so much sooner after eating bread than if I don't or even compared to an equal amount of carbs from sweet potato or rice.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on October 14, 2011
at 06:39 PM

Even though I'm not celiac, I avoid consciously eating ANY gluten to avoid inflammation. It takes 6 weeks to completely get it out of your system (or so I've read.) It was much easier to give up bread when I stopped seeing it as food, lol!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 06:29 PM

haha "in the but".. lol. >>> gut, not but.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 06:29 PM

then again, i do want to live a life!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 06:28 PM

yah i occassionally have pizza/beer. pizza not so much, maybe once a month if that. beer a couple times per month. i'd give up pizza easier than the occassional beer. is 3-4 individual beers per month enough to cause a gluten problem in the but. to my knowledge, i don't have celiac disease, and I've never had a problem consuming gluten. then again, that's to my knowledge, and things may have changed. i may have developed a mild gluten intolerance and just dont know it yet. going 100% gluten free could be a good idea, but it makes me nervous to do so. i dont want to live a gluten free life.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 14, 2011
at 06:08 PM

Thats not VLC, its just LC

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 04:04 PM

Hi Rogue - I havent' had a piece of this bread since last December. I quit it completely and never looked back.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 03:48 PM

yah i know. i've heard of people over consuming foods that ultimately lead to an allergy of sorts to that food. happens with wheat, shellfish, nuts... but I guess my first thought is to try to identify what changed that I never used to eat. Whey protein, coconut oil, sprouted breads, coconut flour, heavy cream, sprouted nuts, stevia powder... these things were never on my radar before going Paleo.

Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd

(6433)

on October 14, 2011
at 03:34 PM

I understand your approach, but it's possible to develop sensitivities to foods that you've eaten all your life. In fact, there is even a school of thought that claims regular and high consumption of a food is more likely to trigger problems.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 03:30 PM

So I like to identify the "new" and sorta oddball things as being culprits in my quest. Someone could say.. "Maybe it's the amount of eggs you eat" and my knee jerk response would be.. "but I've eaten eggs all my life".

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 03:30 PM

Hi Tiffany. Thanks for your comments. Yah the idea is that sprouted the grains essentially turns it into a baby plant or sorts, completely altering the composition of the "seed" and much of the antinutrients. I think I lean toward believing that for the most part, but this bread is also ultra high in fiber. Also, I had never previously eaten this bread before that time, and I rarely at whole grain anything.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on October 14, 2011
at 02:42 PM

i used to eat the plain orange-colored one when I was WAP. I never experienced any acute issues but I'm interested in the responses.

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5 Answers

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5
Medium avatar

on October 14, 2011
at 05:35 PM

Yeah, it absolutely could. The villous atrophy, crypt elongation and intestinal permeability that so many people in the paleo community refer to as "leaky gut" is almost wholly the result of gluten exposure. Sprouting is more of a means by which phytate can be reduced. Even if it had an effect on gluten content, sprouted bread manufacturers have to add gluten back into the bread or it won't rise. If the loaf looks like standard bread, it really has to have gluten in it.

That all being said, unless you had full blown celiac's or crohn's or something, you would have repaired your gut fairly well by now, though I do seem to recall that you'll have pizza, beer etc. here and there. It may be worthwhile to completely cut gluten out for a while.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 08:38 PM

Travis - straight Q - do you suspect that I have leaky gut?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 06:28 PM

yah i occassionally have pizza/beer. pizza not so much, maybe once a month if that. beer a couple times per month. i'd give up pizza easier than the occassional beer. is 3-4 individual beers per month enough to cause a gluten problem in the but. to my knowledge, i don't have celiac disease, and I've never had a problem consuming gluten. then again, that's to my knowledge, and things may have changed. i may have developed a mild gluten intolerance and just dont know it yet. going 100% gluten free could be a good idea, but it makes me nervous to do so. i dont want to live a gluten free life.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on October 14, 2011
at 06:39 PM

Even though I'm not celiac, I avoid consciously eating ANY gluten to avoid inflammation. It takes 6 weeks to completely get it out of your system (or so I've read.) It was much easier to give up bread when I stopped seeing it as food, lol!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 15, 2011
at 05:12 AM

Dextery - it has nothing to do with willpower friend. It has to do with belief. And I'm not talking about lack of faith. I'm talking about not knowing what to believe I should do. The amount of incredibly focused tweaking I have done with my diet in these past few months is mind bending.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 15, 2011
at 05:57 PM

Dex/Q - Excuse me but I respectively ask that you stop insinuating that I lack the willpower or determination to better my health. Please don't be idiotically insulting. Walk a day in my shoes and observe my food choices and lifestyle. You'd be as perplexed as I am. If you desire to keep speaking down to me, go for it, but eventually the irritation will lead to a lack of respect for both of you. I value and appreciate your opinion, but I don't value your condescending tone. *"Denial is a tough thing for the human brain to conceptualize. Thinking changes DNA"*. Yah. Good grief indeed.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 06:29 PM

then again, i do want to live a life!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 06:29 PM

haha "in the but".. lol. >>> gut, not but.

559aa134ff5e6c8bcd608ba8dc505628

(3631)

on October 15, 2011
at 04:46 PM

Good grief .

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 15, 2011
at 01:45 PM

Perhaps you should hang out with people that are achieving excellent results with their leaky guts and thus health since June. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread32345.html

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 14, 2011
at 07:03 PM

I don't know how "leaky gut" became an ubiquitous catch-all that requires a voodoo ceremony to address. All you need to do is stop eating gluten and be otherwise healthy and your body's self-repair mechanisms should do most of the work. The worse it is when you start, the longer it takes.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 14, 2011
at 10:18 PM

With your Sept Vap showing mostly Pattern B LDL and your Low HDL and very high triglycerides....Yeah, you have a leaky gut. When you heal your gut, then those numbers will reverse. You can cure it, but do you have the willpower to follow a recipe to achieve that end?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 14, 2011
at 10:13 PM

I think an actual significant permeability would have a lot of obvious symptoms. I kind of doubt that someone who's been paleo for a while would have it and I don't really see how it would relate to your TGs at all.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on October 15, 2011
at 02:07 PM

Id love to hear why your respondants here can explain your results then? Occassional gluten exposure? Not quite. Most cases of leaky gut are completely asymptomoc until the major event occurs. See heart disease, stroke, atherosclerosis, and diabetes. All silent killers. This catches most by surprise. Its the rule not the exception. The responses youmgot here from travis and grenedine might just kill you. But JK you and only have to live with your labs and explain why in gods green earth are they yours? Denial is a tough thing for the human brain to conceptualize. Thinking changes DNA

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 15, 2011
at 06:40 PM

Adrenal fatigue, leaky gut...I wonder what the next nebulous holistic healing hoaxes will be....Maybe it won't even refer to a part of human anatomy. "Ah, here's your problem, Jack...you've got that there cloacal atrophy coupled with an upturned gizzard! Let me just cast these bones and get my Big Book of Augury and we'll have you fixed up in no time!"

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 14, 2011
at 07:00 PM

Yeah, we're trained from very early on to associate bread with food. I often drive by a bread factory and still enjoy the smell and I certainly like the idea of bread, but until they can make it without gluten, I'm going to avoid it. I can eat it now without any of the reactions that people describe, but I'm more concerned with chronic nutrient malabsorption. I also get hungry so much sooner after eating bread than if I don't or even compared to an equal amount of carbs from sweet potato or rice.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 15, 2011
at 06:36 PM

I should say that I did some research and there actually is somewhat legitimate *looking* bread made from potato/rice/sorghum mixtures that is safe for even people with celiac's so I suppose it's now possible to engineer bread without gluten. Depending on the ingredients, those things wouldn't necessarily be bad, though the glycemic response would be really steep still and the meals in which you put them would be less satisfying and nutritious than if tubers were in their place.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 15, 2011
at 11:58 PM

lol. plus one for you Travis.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 15, 2011
at 06:39 PM

Adrenal fatigue, leaky gut...I wonder what the next nebulous holistic healing hoaxes will be....Maybe it won't even refer to a part of human anatomy. "Ah, here's your problem, Jack...you've got that there cloaca atrophy coupled with a upturned gizzard! Let me just cast these bones and get my Big Book of Augury and we'll have you fixed up in no time!"

2
4ccf5d9bba64e54fc95802fe8ae33c47

(900)

on October 14, 2011
at 04:45 PM

I always had more digestive issues and stomach aches after eating the ezekiel breads than after plain white bread. At the time I never understood that, like you said the sprouting and soaking and fermenting and baking should actually make it easier to digest. At the time I thought it probably was the multi-grain aspect in their breads, and that trying to digest several different grains plus legumes at once can cause problems. Then I started sprouting grains myself and adding that to my salad and that nearly killed my intestines for good. That's how I found paleo. I had eaten sprouted grains and whole grain when I was in my twenties and thirties and don't remember having such serious effects. But I am now in my fifties and my digestive tract finally went on strike. Since going paleo a few months ago and avoiding all grains and legumes I am slowly but surely recovering.

4ccf5d9bba64e54fc95802fe8ae33c47

(900)

on November 14, 2011
at 01:05 AM

Right now I avoid any type of grain or seed and try to stick to very simple foods that I know won't irritate my gut like meat/fish/butter, tubers, lettuce, eggs. I might give buckwheat a try again sometime, I used to like to eat occasional buckwheat grits with yogurt.

723e9af1560a89e7d8148b386151c15d

(38)

on November 13, 2011
at 12:08 AM

High phytate and oxalate content of sprouted grains may be anoter reason. As for me, I've tried sproted whole grain (modern wheat) bread and pasta and had the same digestive problems like after ordinary ones. How about pseudograins (buckwheat, quinoa, amaranth...) - do you avoid them too?

723e9af1560a89e7d8148b386151c15d

(38)

on November 14, 2011
at 07:55 PM

If you'll happen to reintroduce buckwheat someday, try to ferment it before cooking. Ideally, you should also ferment it after cooking, e.g. using miso (you can find non-soy varieties). As for me, just fermenting buckwheat (or devzira rice) before cooking makes it much less "heavy" for digestion and my gut accepts it. + Taste and texture become milder.

1
Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on October 14, 2011
at 04:00 PM

I know for myself, that if I ate a sprouted gluten grain at all, I would have a tidal wave of symptoms that would throw me off for weeks...development of leaky gut can be caused by eating foods frequently, as well as by not digesting properly due a myriad of reasons, including just plain not chewing your food well. There is a really easy way to figure this out for yourself...just don't eat any bread for a month and see what happens when you eat it again(heavily for a few days).

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 04:04 PM

Hi Rogue - I havent' had a piece of this bread since last December. I quit it completely and never looked back.

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on October 14, 2011
at 09:29 PM

Oh, sorry, I missed that part of your question...I do think that anything can cause leaky gut...low hcl production and failure to chew foods thoroughly are relatively easy fixes. Leaky gut happens when molecules of undigested food matter pass through the intestines, which have become weakened and permeable, which you may already know. Anyway, the answer to your question is, yes, your consumption of sprouted grain bread may have caused leaky gut.

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 14, 2011
at 06:12 PM

Wheat has gluten no matter the type. As Travis said, if you have problem, remove it.

The type of bread u use is probably the best wheat bread available. In Russia, similar type of bread is used as mandatory in nursery because of its very high mineral, amino acid and vitamin E content related to normal white bread, non existent fillers and E numbers and no industry procedure.

3 slices per day is not high intake if we compare that to regular bread eaters. In my country it is considered very low. I didn't have any problems with such bread to be honest, although I don't consume it any more as I fell for gluten free propaganda :) When I do eat bread sometimes, its that one.

0
B08fad318a550c05b90477eef920411d

on October 14, 2011
at 03:18 PM

If you have leaky gut you probably need to follow a healing program like GAPS. I highly doubt that this bread would give you leaky guy. I know people with celiac disease who can eat this bread without any problems. You've probably had it for a long time from eating SAD and if you've ever take antibiotics they would contribute to a messed up gut.

I follow WAPF diet, but I try to avoid most grains and gluten for the most part. I buy this bread every once in a while when I'm craving toast or a grilled cheese sandwich. Supposedly, sprouted wheat digests like a vegetable, but I'm not sure how accurate that information is.

Fa9f340eddbad9a544184c688fa4dcdd

(6433)

on October 14, 2011
at 03:34 PM

I understand your approach, but it's possible to develop sensitivities to foods that you've eaten all your life. In fact, there is even a school of thought that claims regular and high consumption of a food is more likely to trigger problems.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 03:30 PM

So I like to identify the "new" and sorta oddball things as being culprits in my quest. Someone could say.. "Maybe it's the amount of eggs you eat" and my knee jerk response would be.. "but I've eaten eggs all my life".

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 03:30 PM

Hi Tiffany. Thanks for your comments. Yah the idea is that sprouted the grains essentially turns it into a baby plant or sorts, completely altering the composition of the "seed" and much of the antinutrients. I think I lean toward believing that for the most part, but this bread is also ultra high in fiber. Also, I had never previously eaten this bread before that time, and I rarely at whole grain anything.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 14, 2011
at 03:48 PM

yah i know. i've heard of people over consuming foods that ultimately lead to an allergy of sorts to that food. happens with wheat, shellfish, nuts... but I guess my first thought is to try to identify what changed that I never used to eat. Whey protein, coconut oil, sprouted breads, coconut flour, heavy cream, sprouted nuts, stevia powder... these things were never on my radar before going Paleo.

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