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What do you think about KGH’s latest comment about the value of Paleo?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created May 10, 2012 at 6:57 PM

What do you think about KGH???s latest comment about the value of Paleo?

A commenter on Carbsane???s blog said ???"i am currently confused as to what value there is in a paleo/ancestral approach to nutrition and health."

KGH answered here at Carbsane's blog. Here are some excerpts:

I am not sure there is any now. There might have been, but just from the total inability to coalesce around core recommendations, and the radical variability in approaches we see under the label, anyone could be forgiven for thinking paleo is a lot of ideologically-driven a priori narrative-based dietary faddism.

. . .

The paleo label actually is kind of finished. It does not represent any scientifically respectable approach and has such few reliable core elements as to be a heuristically useless concept. It has nothing to add to reading Michael Pollan or and just adding some red meat, or Weston Price sans sourdough bread.

. . .

PS My comments are about the state of "paleo" as a meme. It is of course useful to use an ancestral approach to nutrition in some ways. The problem is, in order to instruct someone in it, I would have to specify how to do it and WHO is doing it correctly and not just making up stories, etc. And then, I would be roundly criticized for trying to constrain the libertarian wonderland that is paleo on the internet, where every idea is a beautiful snowflake that deserves a fair hearing and is somehow "contributing to the conversation" - as if dialogue about diet were a useful good for it's own sake.

I would be considered a "hater" who is not interested in "helping people" by being so negative as to point out which of the beautiful paleo flowers are really just weeds.

Has the value of Paleo diminished because of the beautiful snowflakes and the "hater" talk?

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

True. He hasn't been seen at Richard Nikoley's since Nikoley started using "c*nt" to excess and defending Kruse. Perhaps it's coincidental.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 15, 2012
at 12:59 AM

Matt you see it very differently from how I see it then. This is absolutely not an issue of control by people who think a little too much of themselves? How you even come to that conclusion is beyond me really. I think a lot of people who care deeply about the future of this community are being vocal about something that is distressing to say the least. Interesting that you interpret that as a power trip. And what the heck blew up in anyone's face other that Jack's? He's the only one with egg on his face as far as I'm concerned. Oh well. Interesting interpretation Matt. I will give you that

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on May 14, 2012
at 08:45 PM

Good. I think paleo as a term should be like kleenex. If crazy people use kleenex, it doesn't effect my understanding of the term. This is why I think the pile on that KGH and others are engaging in is completely pointless and kind of contrary to what they allege to want to achieve. Attention is the currency of the internet, and they keep giving people they don't like attention. Much better to step away from the internet and cook something.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 12, 2012
at 11:39 AM

Well, it sounds like you're in the Kurt Harris camp then. All this hand-wringing over what Jack Paleo recommends that happens to disagree with what Joe Paleo says. I think all of this ultimately has been blown out of proportion by bloggers (and PHers) who think a little bit too much of themselves. The "intellectual" paleos decided to get nasty and it blew up in their faces. Laissez-faire, evolution, self-assembly, these sorts of ideas I support and suggest to me that fringe elements if they're indeed based in wrong-headed ideas will die out or move along.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 12, 2012
at 11:33 AM

That's hardly a summary, Paleo2.0, that's a novel, he wants the cliff notes! :)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 12, 2012
at 11:17 AM

It seems perfect for me.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 12, 2012
at 04:49 AM

All I know is that I wish to never have to hear from anyone that paleo has anything to do with self-inflicted staph infections, bomb threats on cruises, Factor XY or Z or sitting in ice water for hours. I am now working with a 650 lb man who I have little hope of influencing if I have to battle with him over the kind of ridiculous stuff for which Paleo is now known. Paleo has been co-opted by crazy and I want to work to undo that.It may feel like it's none of your business but it's totally my business and I plan to do what I can do to get paleo back from the edge.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 12, 2012
at 03:22 AM

All I know is that I wish to never have to hear from anyone that paleo is complicated (ie unreadable/incomprehensible) or has anything to do with sitting in ice or that they can't possibly lose weight if they don't eat a big steak every morning or any of the "woo" or other crap that has infested this community the past year. I am now working with a 650 lb man who I have little hope of influencing if I have to battle with him over why ice baths have shit nothing to do with losing weight and why this ridiculous cruise drama cooked up as a publicity stunt by a special snowflake is NOT paleo.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 12, 2012
at 03:14 AM

I completely understand why being involved in this fight may not be a good thing for certain people. Maybe many people. But don't'try to shame me or guilt me over my involvement. I have now lost not one but TWO clients of my paleo consulting practice over the insanity that has taken over the paleo conversation in the past year. It needs to stop. I am going to do what I can do to make it stop.(I should mention my consulting is free of charge, one on one help for people in my community who are interesting in starting paleo)

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 12, 2012
at 03:10 AM

I think people can have different opinions on this matter and that needs to be o.k. For Karen and some others well they think people should avert their eyes and mind their own business. I happen to see it as very much my business. I've been personally touched by the negative impact of Jack's presence in this community. I had to look into the eyes of a woman I'd been working with as she told me that after investigating paleo found it too confusing and she didn't want to have to sit in a cold tub to lose weight. I won't sit back and watch people driven away by crazy. No. Crazy needs to GO.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 12, 2012
at 01:30 AM

I am an elitist and I am not ashamed. I eat the BEST food, read the BEST books, follow the most educated researchers, and in general site out the best that is out there.

Medium avatar

(19479)

on May 12, 2012
at 12:50 AM

"Paleo used to be about finding the BEST answers, through evolutionary biology and rigorous self-experimentation." <---- This is what started "Paleo" and this is the hope of it's salvation. When the scientific core of Paleo began to be dismissed, and even cast in with all the other "conventional wisdom", the movement started to lose it's focus.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 12, 2012
at 12:28 AM

I don't see the need for all this control over paleo. It all really sounds like sour grapes because there's alternatives out there to one's own opinion. Not going so far as to say all opinions are equal, but wrong-headed opinions get washed out by valid ones more often than not.

35ba1f50dad25c85ac1aa2599fe5c5cb

(2485)

on May 11, 2012
at 10:12 PM

I'll be blunt. Cookbooks are my gateway. I can read the information as well as anyone, but the journey between information and implementation gets really fuzzy. Show me how to make good food that I want to eat, and that's enough for me.

0f98e4ccf1ee091f031584234bf4c20d

(120)

on May 11, 2012
at 08:03 PM

Agreed on the scientific method. Terms like "academic" and "anti-intellectual" and statements like "conferences that have more personal trainers than academics", seemed elitist to me. I have not been to AHS, but I was at PaleoFX and there were more "academics" than personal trainers presenting and on panels. I apologize if I misinterpreted your answer.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on May 11, 2012
at 07:12 PM

Chris, try these: http://paleohacks.com/questions/118128/meta-whats-the-deal-with-paleohacks-dr-kruse-and-the-fbi#axzz1uHiiMS5J , http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/05/sheet-fans-and-dr-john-jack-kruse.html , http://freetheanimal.com/2012/05/dr-jack-kruse-booted-from-carnival-2012-low-carb-cruise.html

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 11, 2012
at 06:35 PM

Woohooo policy debate! I'm going to run 3 disads, a counterplan, solvency, a kritik, and then advantage 2 :) Get ready for some Heidegger.

2fd93e91bb14e641a2bac9c6033e84e2

(1614)

on May 11, 2012
at 06:26 PM

Can somebody link me to SOMETHING that summarizes the "ridiculous ego drama of the last few days"??! I have no clue what happened...

Ba09704971e33481f5716c4790648966

(1794)

on May 11, 2012
at 05:36 PM

Word .

27361737e33ba2f73ab3c25d2699ad61

(1880)

on May 11, 2012
at 05:29 PM

Great points. Nobody is going to stick with what doesn't work for them no matter how many peer reviewed studies claim it's the holy grail. I define paleo principles pretty mush as you have above with the deletion of dairy and the addition of eggs. The principles then get tailored to suit individual needs. Is paleo for everyone? Of course not. Nothing's for everyone. And just because I personally abstain from grains, beans and dairy doesn't mean I think they are toxic poisons...ditto for omega-6 phobia and fear of walnuts...

1296f5fecd084f101d7c5fbe013f07eb

(1213)

on May 11, 2012
at 04:10 PM

+1 for Ohio high school debate. Represent!

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 11, 2012
at 03:42 PM

No, it's anti-elitist attitudes that are ruining everything. Paleo used to be about finding the BEST answers, through evolutionary biology and rigorous self-experimentation. You don't need to be an academic, but some deference to the scientific method and those that labor in it is absolutely required.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on May 11, 2012
at 02:56 PM

This is pretty consistent with what Dr. Harris has been saying all along. For example, this (from 2009): http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2009/11/27/health-and-evolutionary-reasoning-the-panu-method.html

0f98e4ccf1ee091f031584234bf4c20d

(120)

on May 11, 2012
at 02:39 PM

It is not over. Some might have taken their spears and gone back to the cave, but most are still here!

0f98e4ccf1ee091f031584234bf4c20d

(120)

on May 11, 2012
at 02:38 PM

Elitist attitudes are what are driving people away from this movement. There are more "anti-intellectual" questions and comments on this site than any blog I have seen. The great thing about Paleo was how the "community" would stick together and talk about different ideas. It has now become a bashing session. People from diverse backgrounds are what make Paleo interesting. It takes a village to raise a child (movement), not just academics.

45eaf1688c1baf31d687a382b78f451f

(502)

on May 11, 2012
at 02:10 PM

I must get me a paleo tattoo! ;-) Great insight!

45eaf1688c1baf31d687a382b78f451f

(502)

on May 11, 2012
at 02:07 PM

Um...snowflakes melt. :) Consider this week's outbursts growing pains.

D1728f99db66ff91d695a6df5cd38b02

(1368)

on May 11, 2012
at 01:31 PM

Melissa, your answer is good, and you should feel good.

3b0b95dfc6dc5c18e535945f4aab0866

(2392)

on May 11, 2012
at 10:02 AM

@meeps, didn't miss anything, just reading comments at the other sites, Kurt hangs out alot at CarbSane and writes nice long comments. Guess he doesn't intend to be so much an independant blogger anymore as a supporting character on other people's blogs - and not paleohacks :) As for Richard he isn't exactly his former cute self anymore...he's losing goodwill. Too bas.

Cdbfa5e332dc69db6505f803bd2df63a

(90)

on May 11, 2012
at 04:50 AM

just go to 'carb sane' website - also, 'free the animal' Ugh, R.Nickloley had lost me with his immature political rantings that left me questioning his intelligence - but, now I question his basic decency. YUCK! he's taken this blog-ego entertainment personality too far. But, maybe it was never that - just how he really is.

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on May 11, 2012
at 03:16 AM

I think it's a great debate. Two totally different perspectives, and, I think, both of them valid. That doesn't happen very often. I hope there's a way to keep this argument going without it being nasty or personal.

C79a5b43dfc5749200bd9dcaa6bb0858

on May 11, 2012
at 03:04 AM

Wait, what the hell did I miss? Links please.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 11, 2012
at 12:31 AM

I only read a couple random sentences of this, but you two should kiss and make up.

C0fcb48d7da4f76fac17318efd2cd6b8

(4069)

on May 11, 2012
at 12:29 AM

Hear hear! an abbreviation for "hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!"

C0fcb48d7da4f76fac17318efd2cd6b8

(4069)

on May 11, 2012
at 12:27 AM

I might just be sour grapey, but to me Kurt Haris is a coalescing radical variable a priori narratively-based heuristically useless concept sans sourdough bread.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 10, 2012
at 11:23 PM

My cat isn't intellectual, but she doesn't mind it when I watch the Discovery Channel. (that's about as intellectual as i can get)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 10, 2012
at 11:20 PM

By the way, at work I have to do my best Matt Lalonde impression when talking about nutrition and disease, or else I get absolutely torn apart. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Being highly specific and logical keeps one on guard against logical fallacies, even if its annoying having to defend yourself against SAD robots.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 10, 2012
at 11:14 PM

...oh yeah, and KGH has a good point. "You don't help people, you just criticize" is a pretty lame-o argument. Oh that Denise Minger, just criticizing T Colin Campbell and tearing apart studies. So unhelpful. I stake this ground, as the 2nd ranked high school debater in Ohio in 1998. No matter what decision calculus you use to evaluate issues, criticism is an amazingly essential element.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:53 PM

"Harris himself has some core recommendations that are basically identical to the above" Actually Harris has pretty actively tried to distance himself from Cordain's version of paleo. Some people call Cordain's version "Faileo." Limited eggs, limited fatty meat, no dairy, very limited starches, fear of saturated fat, etc... are not really "identical" to the Archevore diet.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 10, 2012
at 10:52 PM

Not being intellectual is not the same as being anti-intellectual :)

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:47 PM

And going outside and playing is not a cop out. It's all there is. If you've read all this theory and not applied any of it...I dunno. The rest of this is just distraction.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:47 PM

I think the word "meme" is pretty interesting. Try repeating it over and over again really fast. Isn't that funny? If enough people started doing this, it would become a meme. How ironic. Also, I think the word "ironic" is pretty interesting. Try...

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:44 PM

HWSNBN is hanging himself and doesn't need mine or anyone else's help. It's like people on a schoolyard running up to watch a fight. Getting a play-by-play of the fight just adds to the noise and the result is the same. What is this "it" that's being ruined? An idea? A consensus? A movement? And who is being driven away? If people want to take all their toys and go home due to the drama surrounding one guy who may or may not speak for a rag-tag group of diet hackers, then they would've never made it in the first place.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:42 PM

preach! haters gonna hate.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:39 PM

.... have not read Le Corre and will look him up. Thanks for the rec :)

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:36 PM

:) .

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:35 PM

Ha. I apologize for coming across like a jerk, as I said, it just made me feel kind of unwelcome. I am not a personal trainer, just not very in touch with the intellectual side of paleo either, and came to this lifestyle at a young age because it intuitively made sense, not because it did intellectually. I've converted at least 4 people I know to paleo without once saying the word paleo and not even delving very far into the science behind any of it. So, as far as I am concerned, I'm an asset to you- more paleo peeps-> more potential demand for paleo/ancesteral reading material (i.e. blogs

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:32 PM

I think the value of paleo is objective. Its' sort of like asking if the theory of the atom (before we could see them) was diminished by the personalities of the theorists or the way they handled discourse. What are the paleo hypothesis and do they hold water? These questions are not affected by haters or snowflakes. However, the flow of information is greatly diminished by haters and people who don't know how to debate with integrity. But every scientific movement has survived it (remember, we haven't evolved that much). CHIN UP KURT!!

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:27 PM

I think the value of paleo is objective. What are the paleo hypothesis and do they hold water? These questions are not affected by haters or snowflakes. However, the flow of information is greatly diminished by haters and people who don't know how to debate with integrity. But every scientific movement has survived it (remember, we haven't evolved that much). CHIN UP KURT!!

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:14 PM

Karen I read your post and we are clearly living on different planet. Go outside and play if that makes you feel good but that feels like a cop out to me. Perspective? What happened this week ruined all perspective. I have personal health and happiness. Problem is I want it for others and right now people are being driven away from this community and what it has to offer by crazy people that we have allowed to ruin it. I aim to do what I can to stop it. Doesn't take away from my health or happiness in the least. It makes me feel useful and productive. Things have to change. I plan to help.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 10, 2012
at 10:13 PM

Nothing wrong with personal trainers. I pay one every month to help me, but it's good to have balance. What about Erwan Le Corre? Him, Sisson, and Nell are good examples because they are intellectual and also fantastic athletes.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 10, 2012
at 09:25 PM

WOw, if we were freinds I'd be slightly offended by this. The only paleo-related blogs I frequent are yours, MDA, PHD, Stephenson, and guyenet. I have a lot of respect for the the quality work you and these individuals put out there. However, I would not pay a dime to listen to any paleo/ancesteral intellectual guru (whatever you want to call it) talk about exercise and/or improving athleticism (with the exception of Stephenson and Sisson).

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 10, 2012
at 09:22 PM

WOw, if we were freinds I'd be slightly offended by this. The only paleo-related blogs I frequent are yours, MDA, PHD, Stephenson, and guyenet. I have a lot of respect for the the quality work you and these individuals put out there. However, I would not pay a dime to see any of you (with the exception of Stephenson and Sisson) "intellectuals" talk about exercise or improving atheletic performance.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 10, 2012
at 09:17 PM

I appreciate KH's contributions (particularly the helminth and pseudocommensals business), but sometimes I feel like it's trying to get practical information out of Yoda. Like, "Hey Yoda? Can you tell me an easy way to fix eggs?" And then Yoda's all like, "Scramble them, you should not." And then I'm all like, "Whoa." Which is to say that he is too smart for his own good. And ours sometimes. He's beyond the beyond, when sometimes we just need beyond.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 10, 2012
at 09:14 PM

This feels melodramatic to me. Let's say you unplugged from the computer for the last week and never heard a thing about the brouhaha with He Who Shall Not Be Named (HWSNBN) and you just kept on eating your good food and getting some sunshine and exercise and generally feeling good about life. What would have changed for you? Nothing. I think we need to keep this stuff in perspective, keep our eyes on the prize (personal health and happiness), and continue to be mildly amused by the riffles caused by very tiny pebbles in a large pond.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 10, 2012
at 09:10 PM

I think both "high" and "low" approaches are necessary. I'm all for academics, but at the end of a day, you gotta know what to do with all the theory. The collective CW cultural noise about diet, exercise, and lifestyle is unbearably loud, and the ancestral message is too important to get drowned out. I really hope we don't fail the folks that need the message by throwing up our hands in disgust over some philosophical speedbumps.

Df6dabaf4b1ef3d5db980ad64c501a5b

on May 10, 2012
at 08:23 PM

So... what's the answer? Paleo peer-review?

59fa7cd87fb9d669adf21e5cf3e7ada5

on May 10, 2012
at 07:37 PM

I'm one of the anti-intellectual ones, I'm purely results driven and enormously egocentric so the intellectual or philosophical side of it doesn't interest me at all, I only care if it produces the results that I want. I imagine that the personal trainers at the conferences are geared towards people like me.

D1728f99db66ff91d695a6df5cd38b02

(1368)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:37 PM

I totally agree. Its becoming less about the science and the reasons why biologically certain foods harm us, and more about 'living a paleo lifestyle and becoming a hunter gatherer and spiritual benefits'. These things are great, but without the main focus being on the science, we will lose the interest of intellectuals.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:24 PM

We are (d)_Evo!

3ca2644fcf7a056170550e0581c99ded

(70)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:20 PM

Can you elaborate on the anti-intellectual slant? Just curious.

C79a5b43dfc5749200bd9dcaa6bb0858

on May 10, 2012
at 07:16 PM

Sad but true Melissa.

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18 Answers

36
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 10, 2012
at 07:10 PM

I remember when it was a more academic movement and I miss that. The schedules of all the conferences seem to have more personal trainers than academics. And there is a strong anti-intellectual slant. I think more academics will gravitate away from being associated with paleo and publish things under the header of evolutionary medicine.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:36 PM

:) .

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 10, 2012
at 10:52 PM

Not being intellectual is not the same as being anti-intellectual :)

3ca2644fcf7a056170550e0581c99ded

(70)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:20 PM

Can you elaborate on the anti-intellectual slant? Just curious.

D1728f99db66ff91d695a6df5cd38b02

(1368)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:37 PM

I totally agree. Its becoming less about the science and the reasons why biologically certain foods harm us, and more about 'living a paleo lifestyle and becoming a hunter gatherer and spiritual benefits'. These things are great, but without the main focus being on the science, we will lose the interest of intellectuals.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 10, 2012
at 10:13 PM

Nothing wrong with personal trainers. I pay one every month to help me, but it's good to have balance. What about Erwan Le Corre? Him, Sisson, and Nell are good examples because they are intellectual and also fantastic athletes.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 10, 2012
at 09:22 PM

WOw, if we were freinds I'd be slightly offended by this. The only paleo-related blogs I frequent are yours, MDA, PHD, Stephenson, and guyenet. I have a lot of respect for the the quality work you and these individuals put out there. However, I would not pay a dime to see any of you (with the exception of Stephenson and Sisson) "intellectuals" talk about exercise or improving atheletic performance.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:24 PM

We are (d)_Evo!

C79a5b43dfc5749200bd9dcaa6bb0858

on May 10, 2012
at 07:16 PM

Sad but true Melissa.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:35 PM

Ha. I apologize for coming across like a jerk, as I said, it just made me feel kind of unwelcome. I am not a personal trainer, just not very in touch with the intellectual side of paleo either, and came to this lifestyle at a young age because it intuitively made sense, not because it did intellectually. I've converted at least 4 people I know to paleo without once saying the word paleo and not even delving very far into the science behind any of it. So, as far as I am concerned, I'm an asset to you- more paleo peeps-> more potential demand for paleo/ancesteral reading material (i.e. blogs

D1728f99db66ff91d695a6df5cd38b02

(1368)

on May 11, 2012
at 01:31 PM

Melissa, your answer is good, and you should feel good.

Medium avatar

(19479)

on May 12, 2012
at 12:50 AM

"Paleo used to be about finding the BEST answers, through evolutionary biology and rigorous self-experimentation." <---- This is what started "Paleo" and this is the hope of it's salvation. When the scientific core of Paleo began to be dismissed, and even cast in with all the other "conventional wisdom", the movement started to lose it's focus.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 10, 2012
at 09:10 PM

I think both "high" and "low" approaches are necessary. I'm all for academics, but at the end of a day, you gotta know what to do with all the theory. The collective CW cultural noise about diet, exercise, and lifestyle is unbearably loud, and the ancestral message is too important to get drowned out. I really hope we don't fail the folks that need the message by throwing up our hands in disgust over some philosophical speedbumps.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 10, 2012
at 09:25 PM

WOw, if we were freinds I'd be slightly offended by this. The only paleo-related blogs I frequent are yours, MDA, PHD, Stephenson, and guyenet. I have a lot of respect for the the quality work you and these individuals put out there. However, I would not pay a dime to listen to any paleo/ancesteral intellectual guru (whatever you want to call it) talk about exercise and/or improving athleticism (with the exception of Stephenson and Sisson).

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 11, 2012
at 03:42 PM

No, it's anti-elitist attitudes that are ruining everything. Paleo used to be about finding the BEST answers, through evolutionary biology and rigorous self-experimentation. You don't need to be an academic, but some deference to the scientific method and those that labor in it is absolutely required.

0f98e4ccf1ee091f031584234bf4c20d

(120)

on May 11, 2012
at 08:03 PM

Agreed on the scientific method. Terms like "academic" and "anti-intellectual" and statements like "conferences that have more personal trainers than academics", seemed elitist to me. I have not been to AHS, but I was at PaleoFX and there were more "academics" than personal trainers presenting and on panels. I apologize if I misinterpreted your answer.

59fa7cd87fb9d669adf21e5cf3e7ada5

on May 10, 2012
at 07:37 PM

I'm one of the anti-intellectual ones, I'm purely results driven and enormously egocentric so the intellectual or philosophical side of it doesn't interest me at all, I only care if it produces the results that I want. I imagine that the personal trainers at the conferences are geared towards people like me.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 10, 2012
at 11:23 PM

My cat isn't intellectual, but she doesn't mind it when I watch the Discovery Channel. (that's about as intellectual as i can get)

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:39 PM

.... have not read Le Corre and will look him up. Thanks for the rec :)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 12, 2012
at 01:30 AM

I am an elitist and I am not ashamed. I eat the BEST food, read the BEST books, follow the most educated researchers, and in general site out the best that is out there.

0f98e4ccf1ee091f031584234bf4c20d

(120)

on May 11, 2012
at 02:38 PM

Elitist attitudes are what are driving people away from this movement. There are more "anti-intellectual" questions and comments on this site than any blog I have seen. The great thing about Paleo was how the "community" would stick together and talk about different ideas. It has now become a bashing session. People from diverse backgrounds are what make Paleo interesting. It takes a village to raise a child (movement), not just academics.

16
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:06 PM

Right now I am at a library, where Robb Wolf and Sarah Fragoso own the term. Statistically, very few will ever read KGHs comment. Many people read so slowly they subvocalize. They will read if they have a problem they want an answer to, but if they get on Paleohacks and find all this labelgazing (like navelgazing but for groups!) and a rehash of the latest twitter escapade, they will assume there are no answers here and leave.

Meanwhile, Fragoso will win the day because her book has pretty pictures in it. Cookbooks shall be the gateway- and provide a handy and healthier alternative to internet addiction.

35ba1f50dad25c85ac1aa2599fe5c5cb

(2485)

on May 11, 2012
at 10:12 PM

I'll be blunt. Cookbooks are my gateway. I can read the information as well as anyone, but the journey between information and implementation gets really fuzzy. Show me how to make good food that I want to eat, and that's enough for me.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on May 14, 2012
at 08:45 PM

Good. I think paleo as a term should be like kleenex. If crazy people use kleenex, it doesn't effect my understanding of the term. This is why I think the pile on that KGH and others are engaging in is completely pointless and kind of contrary to what they allege to want to achieve. Attention is the currency of the internet, and they keep giving people they don't like attention. Much better to step away from the internet and cook something.

16
98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

on May 10, 2012
at 08:20 PM

And then, I would be roundly criticized for trying to constrain the libertarian wonderland that is paleo on the internet, where every idea is a beautiful snowflake that deserves a fair hearing and is somehow "contributing to the conversation" - as if dialogue about diet were a useful good for it's own sake.

I would be considered a "hater" who is not interested in "helping people" by being so negative as to point out which of the beautiful paleo flowers are really just weeds.

He gets a standing ovation for this. Nail's been hit on the head right there. It is this idea that somehow anyone who has anything to say about pretty much damn anything is somehow contributing to the conversation that has killed us. No every idea that comes out of anyone's mouth is a good one or a paleo one just because they eat or advocate a paleo way of eating. This is where we effed up.

Once the loudest "beautiful snowflake" was allowed to set up his kool-aid stand it was pretty much over. Yes, it's over.

Df6dabaf4b1ef3d5db980ad64c501a5b

on May 10, 2012
at 08:23 PM

So... what's the answer? Paleo peer-review?

45eaf1688c1baf31d687a382b78f451f

(502)

on May 11, 2012
at 02:07 PM

Um...snowflakes melt. :) Consider this week's outbursts growing pains.

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on May 11, 2012
at 03:16 AM

I think it's a great debate. Two totally different perspectives, and, I think, both of them valid. That doesn't happen very often. I hope there's a way to keep this argument going without it being nasty or personal.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 11, 2012
at 12:31 AM

I only read a couple random sentences of this, but you two should kiss and make up.

0f98e4ccf1ee091f031584234bf4c20d

(120)

on May 11, 2012
at 02:39 PM

It is not over. Some might have taken their spears and gone back to the cave, but most are still here!

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:44 PM

HWSNBN is hanging himself and doesn't need mine or anyone else's help. It's like people on a schoolyard running up to watch a fight. Getting a play-by-play of the fight just adds to the noise and the result is the same. What is this "it" that's being ruined? An idea? A consensus? A movement? And who is being driven away? If people want to take all their toys and go home due to the drama surrounding one guy who may or may not speak for a rag-tag group of diet hackers, then they would've never made it in the first place.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:14 PM

Karen I read your post and we are clearly living on different planet. Go outside and play if that makes you feel good but that feels like a cop out to me. Perspective? What happened this week ruined all perspective. I have personal health and happiness. Problem is I want it for others and right now people are being driven away from this community and what it has to offer by crazy people that we have allowed to ruin it. I aim to do what I can to stop it. Doesn't take away from my health or happiness in the least. It makes me feel useful and productive. Things have to change. I plan to help.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:47 PM

And going outside and playing is not a cop out. It's all there is. If you've read all this theory and not applied any of it...I dunno. The rest of this is just distraction.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 10, 2012
at 09:14 PM

This feels melodramatic to me. Let's say you unplugged from the computer for the last week and never heard a thing about the brouhaha with He Who Shall Not Be Named (HWSNBN) and you just kept on eating your good food and getting some sunshine and exercise and generally feeling good about life. What would have changed for you? Nothing. I think we need to keep this stuff in perspective, keep our eyes on the prize (personal health and happiness), and continue to be mildly amused by the riffles caused by very tiny pebbles in a large pond.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 12, 2012
at 11:39 AM

Well, it sounds like you're in the Kurt Harris camp then. All this hand-wringing over what Jack Paleo recommends that happens to disagree with what Joe Paleo says. I think all of this ultimately has been blown out of proportion by bloggers (and PHers) who think a little bit too much of themselves. The "intellectual" paleos decided to get nasty and it blew up in their faces. Laissez-faire, evolution, self-assembly, these sorts of ideas I support and suggest to me that fringe elements if they're indeed based in wrong-headed ideas will die out or move along.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 12, 2012
at 03:10 AM

I think people can have different opinions on this matter and that needs to be o.k. For Karen and some others well they think people should avert their eyes and mind their own business. I happen to see it as very much my business. I've been personally touched by the negative impact of Jack's presence in this community. I had to look into the eyes of a woman I'd been working with as she told me that after investigating paleo found it too confusing and she didn't want to have to sit in a cold tub to lose weight. I won't sit back and watch people driven away by crazy. No. Crazy needs to GO.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 12, 2012
at 12:28 AM

I don't see the need for all this control over paleo. It all really sounds like sour grapes because there's alternatives out there to one's own opinion. Not going so far as to say all opinions are equal, but wrong-headed opinions get washed out by valid ones more often than not.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 12, 2012
at 03:14 AM

I completely understand why being involved in this fight may not be a good thing for certain people. Maybe many people. But don't'try to shame me or guilt me over my involvement. I have now lost not one but TWO clients of my paleo consulting practice over the insanity that has taken over the paleo conversation in the past year. It needs to stop. I am going to do what I can do to make it stop.(I should mention my consulting is free of charge, one on one help for people in my community who are interesting in starting paleo)

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 12, 2012
at 03:22 AM

All I know is that I wish to never have to hear from anyone that paleo is complicated (ie unreadable/incomprehensible) or has anything to do with sitting in ice or that they can't possibly lose weight if they don't eat a big steak every morning or any of the "woo" or other crap that has infested this community the past year. I am now working with a 650 lb man who I have little hope of influencing if I have to battle with him over why ice baths have shit nothing to do with losing weight and why this ridiculous cruise drama cooked up as a publicity stunt by a special snowflake is NOT paleo.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 12, 2012
at 04:49 AM

All I know is that I wish to never have to hear from anyone that paleo has anything to do with self-inflicted staph infections, bomb threats on cruises, Factor XY or Z or sitting in ice water for hours. I am now working with a 650 lb man who I have little hope of influencing if I have to battle with him over the kind of ridiculous stuff for which Paleo is now known. Paleo has been co-opted by crazy and I want to work to undo that.It may feel like it's none of your business but it's totally my business and I plan to do what I can do to get paleo back from the edge.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 15, 2012
at 12:59 AM

Matt you see it very differently from how I see it then. This is absolutely not an issue of control by people who think a little too much of themselves? How you even come to that conclusion is beyond me really. I think a lot of people who care deeply about the future of this community are being vocal about something that is distressing to say the least. Interesting that you interpret that as a power trip. And what the heck blew up in anyone's face other that Jack's? He's the only one with egg on his face as far as I'm concerned. Oh well. Interesting interpretation Matt. I will give you that

14
C79a5b43dfc5749200bd9dcaa6bb0858

on May 10, 2012
at 07:21 PM

The value of Paleo hasn't dimished as far as I'm concerned. My experience has been life changing. I was on a dark road, lost. Now that I have the Paleo framework to work within I feel alive again. So I tell people that I eat Paleo and I'm not ashamed or worried about what they think. Nay sayers can keep on naysaying, but that won't change my experience, or what I tell people about it. I just hope the negative aspects will dimish with time and more doctors and research will be added to the mix.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:42 PM

preach! haters gonna hate.

C0fcb48d7da4f76fac17318efd2cd6b8

(4069)

on May 11, 2012
at 12:29 AM

Hear hear! an abbreviation for "hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!"

11
Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on May 11, 2012
at 09:37 AM

I think that was a great post by Harris! Mainly because it shows that "paleo" is constantly being picked-up, turned over, examined, turned over, smelt and put-down again. It is a good Scientific approach, and we see people change their opinion as more information comes forward. This is good!

But call me crazy the value of Paleo is in the eating, not in the philosophy. So if anyone feels any value has been lost then they have been investing to much time in the ideology, philosophy and warm fuzzy feelings over and above simply the basic foundation: that being eating beneficial stuff over non-beneficial stuff, even if this is not entirely clear yet, and maybe never will be or actually have to be. We may not have the whole picture, but we have some parts of the picture and the stuff that's good works due to the fact that it's good. Eating iced doughnuts everyday is not good, so don't. Win!

When I read comments like Harris' then I feel paleo has gained value and creditability because it is shown not to be sacramental.

Unfortunately and people forget this, people will always gravitate towards forming religions, with religious leaders and dogma. It is impossible to be truly 'liberal', which sucks because it turns something into a movement and god only knows how many people must have paleo tattoos.

So like the Reformation stop investing in the movement and tradition and get back to the simple basics. Read more books and less opinion.

Paleo semper reformanda est.

45eaf1688c1baf31d687a382b78f451f

(502)

on May 11, 2012
at 02:10 PM

I must get me a paleo tattoo! ;-) Great insight!

11
Dc6407193ba441d1438f6f0c06af872b

on May 10, 2012
at 09:14 PM

There might have been, but just from the total inability to coalesce around core recommendations, and the radical variability in approaches we see under the label, anyone could be forgiven for thinking paleo is a lot of ideologically-driven a priori narrative-based dietary faddism.

I think Wolf, Cordain, and Sisson have indeed coalesced around core recommendations. Hell, even out-there bloggers agree on core recommendations, even if some are more enthusiastic about sitting in a cold tub than others. Oh, and Harris himself has some core recommendations that are basically identical to the above. Jaminet too. If some say it's okay to eat more sweet potatoes than others, everybody says a sweet potato is way better than bread.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:53 PM

"Harris himself has some core recommendations that are basically identical to the above" Actually Harris has pretty actively tried to distance himself from Cordain's version of paleo. Some people call Cordain's version "Faileo." Limited eggs, limited fatty meat, no dairy, very limited starches, fear of saturated fat, etc... are not really "identical" to the Archevore diet.

9
Baa413654789b57f3579474ca7fa43d7

(2349)

on May 11, 2012
at 02:11 PM

I learned about Paleo from the trainers at my gym. Every couple months my gym organizes a 30 Paleo challenge. Hundreds of people have tried Paleo as a result of these challenges and most of them don???t even know who Robb Wolf is. I guarantee no more than 2 or 3 have even heard of Harris or Kruse.

Similarly, I have since ???converted??? 5 or 6 other people who are doing great with Paleo. Their decision to try Paleo happened because they saw the change in me and they trust me. None of them spend the time I do reading blogs, paleohacks, etc., because they don???t ???need??? to in order to follow the diet. The principles of Paleo are exceedingly simple ??? eat meat, vegetables, tubers, fruit, nuts and dairy if you tolerate it. As someone mentioned above, when people do go to the internet to search for more info, it is usually for recipes.

So, what makes me different? Why do I spend time here and other websites? Because Paleo/nutrition has become essentially a hobby for me. I find it interesting. But it became a hobby after I was already living/eating Paleo and had experienced success first hand. If it hadn???t worked, it would not matter how ???scientific,??? ???logical??? or ???intellectual??? the movement was or is. Paleo will succeed or fail based on its efficacy, not the level of intellectual discourse found on someone???s blog.

Having said all that, I don???t mean to imply that Paleo leaders/bloggers have no role. They clearly do and can provide help to thousands of people. But does anyone think Dean Ornish is wringing his hands and lamenting the fate of veganism based on Durianrider???s blog posts?

As someone who knows 100+ people that have at least tried Paleo, I am not aware of anyone that decided to keep going or give up based on anything said or done by a Paleo blogger.

27361737e33ba2f73ab3c25d2699ad61

(1880)

on May 11, 2012
at 05:29 PM

Great points. Nobody is going to stick with what doesn't work for them no matter how many peer reviewed studies claim it's the holy grail. I define paleo principles pretty mush as you have above with the deletion of dairy and the addition of eggs. The principles then get tailored to suit individual needs. Is paleo for everyone? Of course not. Nothing's for everyone. And just because I personally abstain from grains, beans and dairy doesn't mean I think they are toxic poisons...ditto for omega-6 phobia and fear of walnuts...

8
7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on May 11, 2012
at 01:42 AM

This diet has been nothing but win for me, and the ridiculous ego drama of the last few days does nothing to change that.

2fd93e91bb14e641a2bac9c6033e84e2

(1614)

on May 11, 2012
at 06:26 PM

Can somebody link me to SOMETHING that summarizes the "ridiculous ego drama of the last few days"??! I have no clue what happened...

Ba09704971e33481f5716c4790648966

(1794)

on May 11, 2012
at 05:36 PM

Word .

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on May 11, 2012
at 07:12 PM

Chris, try these: http://paleohacks.com/questions/118128/meta-whats-the-deal-with-paleohacks-dr-kruse-and-the-fbi#axzz1uHiiMS5J , http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/05/sheet-fans-and-dr-john-jack-kruse.html , http://freetheanimal.com/2012/05/dr-jack-kruse-booted-from-carnival-2012-low-carb-cruise.html

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 12, 2012
at 11:33 AM

That's hardly a summary, Paleo2.0, that's a novel, he wants the cliff notes! :)

5
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 11, 2012
at 05:13 PM

Yeah, whatever. In the end:

Does it help to eat real food vs crap in a box?

Does it help to avoid grains?

Does it help to avoid artificial trans fats?

Does it help to avoid legumes?

Does it help to avoid dairy?

Does it help to avoid nightshades?

Does it help to get sun exposure?

Does it help to get exercise?

Does it help to limit sugar to proper portions?

Does it help to avoid artificial ingredients such as MSG, coal-derived colors, sweeteners such as aspertame?

Does it help to avoid BPA and other modern toxin exposure?

For me, the answer to almost all of these is yes (I can tolerate goat dairy, I can tolerate nightshades). The rest is meaningless. We're not here to do a historical re-enactment - at least I'm not. If you're not sure, just flip your answers around to "no" for a month and see what happens - if you like it, stick with it.

5
3b0b95dfc6dc5c18e535945f4aab0866

on May 10, 2012
at 09:49 PM

I think its pretty telling that he now prefers to hang out at CarbSane rather than PaleoHacks or his own blog, or many other people's.

C79a5b43dfc5749200bd9dcaa6bb0858

on May 11, 2012
at 03:04 AM

Wait, what the hell did I miss? Links please.

Cdbfa5e332dc69db6505f803bd2df63a

(90)

on May 11, 2012
at 04:50 AM

just go to 'carb sane' website - also, 'free the animal' Ugh, R.Nickloley had lost me with his immature political rantings that left me questioning his intelligence - but, now I question his basic decency. YUCK! he's taken this blog-ego entertainment personality too far. But, maybe it was never that - just how he really is.

3b0b95dfc6dc5c18e535945f4aab0866

(2392)

on May 11, 2012
at 10:02 AM

@meeps, didn't miss anything, just reading comments at the other sites, Kurt hangs out alot at CarbSane and writes nice long comments. Guess he doesn't intend to be so much an independant blogger anymore as a supporting character on other people's blogs - and not paleohacks :) As for Richard he isn't exactly his former cute self anymore...he's losing goodwill. Too bas.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

True. He hasn't been seen at Richard Nikoley's since Nikoley started using "c*nt" to excess and defending Kruse. Perhaps it's coincidental.

4
E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

on May 10, 2012
at 10:22 PM

I would be considered a "hater" who is not interested in "helping people" by being so negative as to point out which of the beautiful paleo flowers are really just weeds."

The weeds are important, every scientific movement in history has had them. If we didn't see some weeds, how would we know we were in a garden at all?

As far as I can tell, basic paleo tenets are still in tact, including the all important "modify/tweak as needed." When my friends ask, "is this paleo?" or "what's the paleo position on..." I can usually assemble something along the lines of "well, most people think this because blah blah, but then some people think that because blah blah. I tried this and it worked for me." Dairy is a good example.

And then, I would be roundly criticized for trying to constrain the libertarian wonderland that is paleo on the internet, where every idea is a beautiful snowflake that deserves a fair hearing and is somehow "contributing to the conversation" - as if dialogue about diet were a useful good for it's own sake.

Isn't it good for it's own sake, though? Isn't that the point of scientific discourse? Isn't that how science makes progress? Granted, the ideas have to have some reasoned basis, but if the snowflake sucks, you'll hear about it on PH. That's the beauty of the open forum.

Paleo is a hypothesis (or a theory if you are feeling generous). It's the perfect time to have an open mind and review evidence. N = 1 stuff has two huge benefits: (1) it's nice for supportive purposes (E.g., It's encouraging when someone says, "don't worry, I had that same experience, try this and you'll be fine in two weeks!" afterall, PH is also a place to get emotional support for a lot of people) and (2) it creates a huge database of individualized evidence from which we can, in a gestalt way, extract overall patterns of correlation (not necessarily causation, though).

And, hey, haters gonna hate.

2
Cdbfa5e332dc69db6505f803bd2df63a

on May 12, 2012
at 03:53 AM

This approach to health has always been about the fact that cultures that thrived were then reduced to the typical diseases once introduced to industrial nutrition. Across the board, across cultures/races, time - this happens. Why? That's what has kept my interest.

I am beginning to link the psychological health of defeated cultures & the associated stress with this decline in health.

The 'discussion' became polarized with the idea of high/low/no carb & the ideas of insulin resistance and fat loss, etc. Come high carb or no carb there is common ground throughout indigenous cultures - the idea it would seem in paleo is to emulate this within reason. Pretty simple in reality. Along the lines of 'eat food. mostly animals' idea.

The stress of the transition from a culture of inclusiveness & sharing to one of 'every man for himself' and the idea of consumerism & amassing stuff I think plays a huge part in the decline of the these populations health & well being. Suddenly they have to play this new game - and if they fail they 'deserve' to starve, have no shelter,etc. The natural human society confronting the 'individualistic' & for lack of a better word 'capitalist' society. Even for those of us born to this culture the stress is too much. This, to me, is also what so-called 'paleo' is about - what it means to be a natural human.

1
26b0f1261d1a0d916825bd0deeb96a21

(5798)

on May 11, 2012
at 09:42 PM

My head just exploded. Is it an "out-group" arguing semantics with it's own "in-group"? Is Cherry really an Outsider? Or is she a Soc, just trying to infiltrate the gang? WWPBD? (What Would Ponyboy Do?).

1
Ba09704971e33481f5716c4790648966

(1794)

on May 11, 2012
at 05:42 PM

Use your resources

Gather information from a variety of sources

Find what works for you

Experiment

Realize that everyone is different and experiences will be unique

Success may vary, there is not one way to do things

This is all just common sense, and should be applied to whatever "movement" you want to follow, if any at all.

1
01adafcb4dd4147c6af543f61eee60a8

on May 11, 2012
at 02:57 AM

Its a wake up call for some paleo people who think its the perfect way of eating,its not!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 12, 2012
at 11:17 AM

It seems perfect for me.

1
Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

on May 10, 2012
at 08:50 PM

As he (eventually) says, there is value in the ancestral approach to nutrition. The problem is that this is rarely what people mean when they refer to paleo diets or lifestyles.

0
D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on May 11, 2012
at 06:14 PM

The question isn't "what's the value of the core principles of the paleo?" The question is "is the community that's been built around some really solid principles worth a damn?" The community is valuable ONLY because of it's principles. If it wasn't for the fact that the principles are decently legitimate, the community would be utter crap. It's full of complainers and know it alls who have little respect for anybody and think they are the only objective individuals in the world. The community is working as hard it can to undermine the core principles and trying to nuance them into meaninglessness.

0
4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:30 PM

Honestly it sounds like he has an axe to grind. As many different variations of paleo as there are, at their core they're all pretty much the same with just a few differences on the margins.

One thing I've realized from reading about nutrition is that there is no one optimal diet for everyone. There has to be some variation here and there to accommodate different people's needs.

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