6

votes

What is wrong with The Quilt?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created May 04, 2012 at 1:59 PM

First, let me specify that I'm asking about Dr. Kruse's specific dietary/supplemental/lifestyle protocol, which I'll refer to as The Quilt, whereas I will refer to the man behind them as Dr. Kruse. I don't want answers regarding problems folks may have with Dr. Kruse himself. This has clearly been asked and answered at length, as have the positives regarding The Quilt. It seems to have a good track record overall (though limited perhaps by disposable income), but most of the criticism I see is in reference to the way Dr. Kruse has handled himself in various situations, rather than the protocol he advises.

Regardless, folks seem to have very strong opinions, both positive and negative, about The Quilt. I want to hear what folks think are the real problems with it COMPLETELY DEVOID OF COMMENTARY ON DR. KRUSE HIMSELF. I don't simply want to avoid ad hominem criticism; I don't especially care to hear about whether or not Dr. Kruse cites sources or has data or whatever. Those things are important, but they've been debated here. What I don't see is a balanced discussion of the problems with The Quilt that Dr. Kruse is trying to knit together (please forgive the mixed metaphor, folks who sew).

I would especially like to hear from you folks who have followed his advice and seen results, positive or negative, and who understand the limitations of it. Dr. Kruse, if you're reading, I'd love to hear your own thoughts on the problems or limitations of your protocol.

I'd like this to be a really productive discussion, so please let's keep it respectful and on-topic. I think it's worth having. Thanks for your input.

8496289baf18c2d3e210740614dc9082

(1867)

on May 05, 2012
at 07:03 AM

If it was responses like this that got the question closed, then y'all oughta be ashamed of that. I asked pretty nicely for nothing about the man or his character.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 05, 2012
at 02:31 AM

And for those who downvoted me, I answered the question exactly as it was written without personal feelings. Sad you couldn't do the same.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:19 AM

OK, I misstated. He said to hold off until your Omega 3/6 levels are fixed, which I am currently working on. Not LR. I did read some other articles on cold exposure that talk about shivering and how that's when you know to stop. Unfortunately I am shivering in my 65 degree apartment, and I'd like that to resolve before I start making myself even colder.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:15 AM

I'm seconding what August says. If you even follow his Facebook posts his dinners since it became close to summer in his area (Nashville) are full of berries, sweet potatoe, etc. he recommends staying in "winter" for those are are not cold adapted and still "leptin resistant." I'm not advocating for or against him... Yet... But you really don't seem to have accurately read everything he recommends.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 04, 2012
at 10:13 PM

You can always vote to reopen. This site is largely run by its users :)

8508fec4bae4a580d1e1b807058fee8e

(6259)

on May 04, 2012
at 10:08 PM

Hi Kelly can you please cite where Dr. K said not to do CT until leptin resistance and other issues are resolved - that is important since probably 80% of the US is overweight/obese and therefore some degree of leptin resistance!

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on May 04, 2012
at 08:33 PM

Rats might not http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1938282/pdf/canmedaj00846-0007.pdf There are always uncertainties about animal experiments, but I think that people should look into this further.

8496289baf18c2d3e210740614dc9082

(1867)

on May 04, 2012
at 07:38 PM

@Stabby: Noradrenaline constricts your arteries, speeds up your heart rate, strengthens heart contraction, shifts blood from the periphery to the central body, assists glucose uptake in the muscles, improves mood, and a million other things. As a side effect of the cardiovascular components, it raises blood pressure temporarily by increasing heart rate and contractility as well as total peripheral resistance. Keep that up artificially (e.g. experimentally in rabbits), and they'll get atherosclerotic. But the body limits that response endogenously, so no real danger.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 04, 2012
at 07:34 PM

You apparenly did not read the question.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 04, 2012
at 07:30 PM

Funny how good disucssions seem to get closed as not real questions lately.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 04, 2012
at 07:25 PM

I live in New England. I don't avoid the cold. In fact this winter I made a concerted effort to wear fewer layers that I normally would have. However even Dr. K said that you should not start his cold adaptation protocol if you are still leptin resistent or have other underlying problems.

8496289baf18c2d3e210740614dc9082

(1867)

on May 04, 2012
at 07:20 PM

That's a whole lot of down-voted hate for a reasonable and respectful question, folks. I know the Kruse topic is dynamite on PH, but I thought we could be more mature than that. I'm sorry to've been wrong.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on May 04, 2012
at 07:11 PM

In the very post that he reveals his keto-ice protocol, he says this: "So carbohydrates are very good for us in season with high light cycles." Near the very beginning http://jackkruse.com/cold-thermogenesis-6-the-ancient-pathway/. I've printed it out so I can go back to it as I learn more about the biology. He'll eat more carbs in summer and virtually none in winter, unless his labs tell him otherwise. He looks like he is all over the map, but he's travelling within certain parameters.

F040035b2008ec80b205481afbd39ad4

(1837)

on May 04, 2012
at 06:41 PM

Where was Superman's house? ;)

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 04, 2012
at 06:33 PM

August, you may be interested in this comment Jack left on my blog: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/08/wonder-what-he-said.html?showComment=1312859568117#c7921401065743900170 "I guarrantee you I eat more carbs than Carb sane.......and less protein too. The people who ate with me at AHS were a bit shocked. I do 42 labs on myself every three months in a quantified self program and I adjust my diet to meet my epigenetics switches. I've been doing it five years and I am an open book to my methods. .... He went from being "I'm not a low carber" to keto-ice-man.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on May 04, 2012
at 06:32 PM

What do you make of the radical elevation of noradrenaline during cold exposure? It looks like noradrenaline can induce atherosclerosis in rabbits. That is worrisome. This hasn't been discussed to my knowledge, however it's not like I read everything that he says.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 04, 2012
at 06:27 PM

So we're back to icing injuries ;-) Really, using anything like cold plunging, icing, etc. is NOTHING new. I knew it at age 5. Yes, our medical system needs repair, but if the alternative is Jack? I'll pass Thanks!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 04, 2012
at 06:08 PM

Please reconsider your cold avoidance pledge. I have hated cold my whole life. I believe my fear and avoidance of cold has been as damaging to my health as all the wheat ,sugar and vegetable oil has been. Start with 70 degrees or even 75 degrees and go from there. Even eighty is of value(See Ray Cornise)

8496289baf18c2d3e210740614dc9082

(1867)

on May 04, 2012
at 05:46 PM

I suppose so, in the sense that it asks the opposite question, the answers to which I couldn't clearly find within that thread.

8496289baf18c2d3e210740614dc9082

(1867)

on May 04, 2012
at 05:45 PM

Not really wanting to get into his character at all, maybe his "innovation" is bringing what we know from treating the very ill into clinical practice with the less ill. As far as I'm aware, that's relatively novel. And he's absolutely right that the profession of medicine is badly in need of repair, not the least because physicians are trained from day one to toe the line, expect change only from the top, and keep a closed mind to innovative bootstrapping.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on May 04, 2012
at 05:20 PM

I suppose that in the context of this question, I should not have brought it up. And yet, even knowing the explicit instructions, I could not refrain from looking sideways like a labrador and going "wtf?".

D7cc4049bef85d1979efbd853dc07c8e

(4029)

on May 04, 2012
at 05:16 PM

MRSA injections for self-experimentations is wacked, no question, but MRSA is not part of Dr. Kruse's complex Quilt. Just sayin'.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 04, 2012
at 04:37 PM

There you go interrobung! Jack frequently claims his profession is broken and he's discovered these secrets. Meanwhile in trauma situations this has been studied by the mainstream for years now in proper controlled conditions.

8496289baf18c2d3e210740614dc9082

(1867)

on May 04, 2012
at 03:50 PM

To the credit of the cold thermogenesis theory, patients given therapeutic hypothermia post-stroke, post-myocardial infarction, post-hemorrhage, and post septic-shock (among others) show statistically improved outcomes. Standard of care is moving in that direction for several pathological processes. It shouldn't be done without supervision, but it's not wrong-headed in- and of-itself.

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 04, 2012
at 02:23 PM

Is this a mirror image of this thread? http://paleohacks.com/questions/74337/what-is-jack-kruse-aka-the-quilt-right-about#axzz1toeJnJS6

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 04, 2012
at 02:22 PM

Isn't this just the flip side of this thread? http://paleohacks.com/questions/74337/what-is-jack-kruse-aka-the-quilt-right-about#axzz1toeJnJS6

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7 Answers

9
24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 04, 2012
at 03:22 PM

There's nothing wrong with the Leptin Reset other than it's essentially co-opted from another Leptin plan and the claims for how it works are not fleshed out.

The Cold Thermogenesis is opposite of what he's claiming it is. A warm blooded animal speeds metabolism when cold which is the opposite of the life-extending reductions in metabolic rate seen in cold blooded worms. The sort of cold exposure and numbness he espouses can be dangerous.

Lastly, it's pretty difficult to separate the man from the message when evaluating the validity of things like this. When stories defy credulity, it makes his greatest selling point -- that he "leads by example" and this "worked for him to lose 150+ lbs" -- ring hollow. For all we know he used HCG, Optifast and lipo.

8496289baf18c2d3e210740614dc9082

(1867)

on May 04, 2012
at 07:38 PM

@Stabby: Noradrenaline constricts your arteries, speeds up your heart rate, strengthens heart contraction, shifts blood from the periphery to the central body, assists glucose uptake in the muscles, improves mood, and a million other things. As a side effect of the cardiovascular components, it raises blood pressure temporarily by increasing heart rate and contractility as well as total peripheral resistance. Keep that up artificially (e.g. experimentally in rabbits), and they'll get atherosclerotic. But the body limits that response endogenously, so no real danger.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on May 04, 2012
at 08:33 PM

Rats might not http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1938282/pdf/canmedaj00846-0007.pdf There are always uncertainties about animal experiments, but I think that people should look into this further.

8496289baf18c2d3e210740614dc9082

(1867)

on May 04, 2012
at 05:45 PM

Not really wanting to get into his character at all, maybe his "innovation" is bringing what we know from treating the very ill into clinical practice with the less ill. As far as I'm aware, that's relatively novel. And he's absolutely right that the profession of medicine is badly in need of repair, not the least because physicians are trained from day one to toe the line, expect change only from the top, and keep a closed mind to innovative bootstrapping.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on May 04, 2012
at 06:32 PM

What do you make of the radical elevation of noradrenaline during cold exposure? It looks like noradrenaline can induce atherosclerosis in rabbits. That is worrisome. This hasn't been discussed to my knowledge, however it's not like I read everything that he says.

F040035b2008ec80b205481afbd39ad4

(1837)

on May 04, 2012
at 06:41 PM

Where was Superman's house? ;)

8496289baf18c2d3e210740614dc9082

(1867)

on May 04, 2012
at 03:50 PM

To the credit of the cold thermogenesis theory, patients given therapeutic hypothermia post-stroke, post-myocardial infarction, post-hemorrhage, and post septic-shock (among others) show statistically improved outcomes. Standard of care is moving in that direction for several pathological processes. It shouldn't be done without supervision, but it's not wrong-headed in- and of-itself.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 04, 2012
at 06:27 PM

So we're back to icing injuries ;-) Really, using anything like cold plunging, icing, etc. is NOTHING new. I knew it at age 5. Yes, our medical system needs repair, but if the alternative is Jack? I'll pass Thanks!

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 04, 2012
at 04:37 PM

There you go interrobung! Jack frequently claims his profession is broken and he's discovered these secrets. Meanwhile in trauma situations this has been studied by the mainstream for years now in proper controlled conditions.

7
A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on September 07, 2013
at 12:44 AM

Advocating a low carb paleo diet with a huge breakfast and no snacking is probably beneficial for many people with a lot of weight to lose. Advocating coconut oil and green tea is probably good for many as well.

But some people will find it difficult and/or unecessary to eat a BAB. And some will not do well on LC/VLC. Some will have problems with coconut oil.

The cold therapy thing is borderline dangerous as several DOCTORS have stated (Harris, Deans).

And MSRA? I can't even wrap my head around that one.

He is probably wrong on his theory of why it works (leptin reset/rewiring the brain). But I suppose time will tell.

D7cc4049bef85d1979efbd853dc07c8e

(4029)

on May 04, 2012
at 05:16 PM

MRSA injections for self-experimentations is wacked, no question, but MRSA is not part of Dr. Kruse's complex Quilt. Just sayin'.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on May 04, 2012
at 05:20 PM

I suppose that in the context of this question, I should not have brought it up. And yet, even knowing the explicit instructions, I could not refrain from looking sideways like a labrador and going "wtf?".

6
2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 04, 2012
at 06:40 PM

I had a twitter 'to and fro' with him recently. I suggested that perhaps it was his duty to his 'followers' to be a little clearer in his message. He told me the only people he has a duty of care to, is his patients. I asked him if he felt he had any sense of responsibility to the many people online he gives advice to. He replied

"I do not give advice on the internet"

If you trust this man, who reiterated to me several times he bears no responsibilty to the 'followers' on his blog, or here, or MDA, then more fool you.

In my opinion, he cares not about helping people, he cares about notoriety. I was shocked at the complete lack of empathy, and the disregard to the hundreds of people who are taking his advice on the internet.

8496289baf18c2d3e210740614dc9082

(1867)

on May 05, 2012
at 07:03 AM

If it was responses like this that got the question closed, then y'all oughta be ashamed of that. I asked pretty nicely for nothing about the man or his character.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 04, 2012
at 07:34 PM

You apparenly did not read the question.

4
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 04, 2012
at 06:00 PM

His cold thermogenesis is SPOT ON!My strength is much better, my recovery is much better, my sexual preformance is much better, my yoga is much better, my four pack has become a six pack (at 56 yrs old). What more can a person want from less than a hundred dollars of investments (in "cold aids") and no side effects(except a good quantity of detox nausea )........Now let's get this straight. There is no danger in sitting in 50 degree BATH water. I started with 70 degree water, then sixty, then sixty again, than 56, than 50, than 50 than 50, than 47, than 45. Driving a car is far more dangerous than sitting in 12 to 16 to 24 inches of 50 degree water. I was rear ended just 21 days ago. I've used instensive cold therapy to speed my whip lash recovery. Harris and Deans are completely off their rockers on this one. I'm not in Lake Michigan swimming for my life.I'm sitting is my bathtub, wearing a WOOL HAT and gloves(optional), with a thermometer in my mouth looking for a temperature drop. I haven't even shivered in the nine weeks I've been CTing. OH THE DANGER! OH THE HORROR! OH THE HUMANITY!

3
F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 04, 2012
at 05:07 PM

All I can say is my personal experience which is that his basic LRP was how I took the step from being a standard low-carber to a full-paleo. My results were extremely positive. I started with the BAB and no-snacking (I was already low-carb) which was really hard at first, but once I got used to it, I lost weight and felt much better. That spurred me on to try and fix my circadian cycle using light and improved sleep. I started taking Vitamin K and CLO. Every step led me to feeling better.

Keep in mind that I was extremely metabolicly broken and suffering from many autoimmune conditions (mostly related to gluten consumption which I still had not completely given up, though it was greatly reduced). This was my last ditch attempt to literally try and save myself before I became unsavable. But the improvements that I had made were what got me really into reading PH and all the paleo blogs and really starting to get a handle on my health. I have learned and fine-tuned a lot of things since then, but I still mostly eat that way. It really changed my life for the better.

As for cold adaptation - I am still always cold. Until that resolves there's no way I'm trying it. But I remember 30 years ago when I was a kid, a well meaning old lady told my mom that the secret to losing weight was to take cold showers. After she left, my grandmother said "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard." She, my mom, and I were all overweight and the old lady was not. Makes you think.

8508fec4bae4a580d1e1b807058fee8e

(6259)

on May 04, 2012
at 10:08 PM

Hi Kelly can you please cite where Dr. K said not to do CT until leptin resistance and other issues are resolved - that is important since probably 80% of the US is overweight/obese and therefore some degree of leptin resistance!

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:19 AM

OK, I misstated. He said to hold off until your Omega 3/6 levels are fixed, which I am currently working on. Not LR. I did read some other articles on cold exposure that talk about shivering and how that's when you know to stop. Unfortunately I am shivering in my 65 degree apartment, and I'd like that to resolve before I start making myself even colder.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 04, 2012
at 06:08 PM

Please reconsider your cold avoidance pledge. I have hated cold my whole life. I believe my fear and avoidance of cold has been as damaging to my health as all the wheat ,sugar and vegetable oil has been. Start with 70 degrees or even 75 degrees and go from there. Even eighty is of value(See Ray Cornise)

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 04, 2012
at 07:25 PM

I live in New England. I don't avoid the cold. In fact this winter I made a concerted effort to wear fewer layers that I normally would have. However even Dr. K said that you should not start his cold adaptation protocol if you are still leptin resistent or have other underlying problems.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 05, 2012
at 02:31 AM

And for those who downvoted me, I answered the question exactly as it was written without personal feelings. Sad you couldn't do the same.

3
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on May 04, 2012
at 03:15 PM

The more carefully you read, the less there is that is 'wrong', especially with regard to his advice to people.
The 'big story'- i.e. the evolutionary narrative may be screwy, but his advice basically breaks down to eat seasonally- eat ketogenically and use cold if you need to for therapeutic reasons or if you want to be 'optimal'.
Of course, he also advocates paleo eating and suggests most crossfitters are exercising themselves too much.

There are, of course, plenty of people out there saying similar things, and at least some research suggesting each of these things have some merit. Nobody else though, is pushing all of these things at the same time with his particular style. Kruse's unique contribution is this ancient pathway, which we need some testing on. It seems to me if we could test NPY levels as someone goes on the simulated paleo winter (cold + ketosis) we'd get a good idea if his idea of the pathway is correct.

I'd like to point out too, that the big evolutionary narrative as told by the important big evolutionary people- i.e. the academics who think they have some sort of monopoly on who gets to play in the evolutionary sandbox- has changed several times in my lifetime alone, and will undoubtedly change again. There is a big difference between the simple process called evolution, and the stories developed under the aegis of Evolution. Everyone is guilty of mythologizing. It is human nature. Evolutionarily necessary even.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 04, 2012
at 06:33 PM

August, you may be interested in this comment Jack left on my blog: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/08/wonder-what-he-said.html?showComment=1312859568117#c7921401065743900170 "I guarrantee you I eat more carbs than Carb sane.......and less protein too. The people who ate with me at AHS were a bit shocked. I do 42 labs on myself every three months in a quantified self program and I adjust my diet to meet my epigenetics switches. I've been doing it five years and I am an open book to my methods. .... He went from being "I'm not a low carber" to keto-ice-man.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on May 04, 2012
at 07:11 PM

In the very post that he reveals his keto-ice protocol, he says this: "So carbohydrates are very good for us in season with high light cycles." Near the very beginning http://jackkruse.com/cold-thermogenesis-6-the-ancient-pathway/. I've printed it out so I can go back to it as I learn more about the biology. He'll eat more carbs in summer and virtually none in winter, unless his labs tell him otherwise. He looks like he is all over the map, but he's travelling within certain parameters.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:15 AM

I'm seconding what August says. If you even follow his Facebook posts his dinners since it became close to summer in his area (Nashville) are full of berries, sweet potatoe, etc. he recommends staying in "winter" for those are are not cold adapted and still "leptin resistant." I'm not advocating for or against him... Yet... But you really don't seem to have accurately read everything he recommends.

2
C56baa1b4f39839c018180bf63226f7d

on May 04, 2012
at 05:57 PM

I think both sides of the Kruse debate were well detailed in the comments of this recent Nikoley blog post (warning: contains foul language and nasty insults at one point, but it gets better if you keep reading). Much of it is about the man himself, but there are also criticisms of CT and the claims of what it can do.

http://freetheanimal.com/2012/04/jack-kruse-neurosurgeon-leptin-reset-and-cold-thermogenesis-controvery.html

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