3

votes

can overeating prevent ketosis?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created September 30, 2012 at 9:41 PM

I am trying to get into ketosis and am finding it very difficult I think because I am having microbinges at almost every meal (I have a long history of doing this). Is it possible that eating too much, even if it's spoonfuls of ghee, would prevent me from entering ketosis because of blood sugar spikes or something?

also, does anyone have info on damage I could be doing to my body just from overeating...like is it stressing my body out to be in this constant overfed state?

I am 5'4 112lbs and currently (over)eating at about 2000-2500cal/day, walking is my only exercise, and I have gained 5lbs in the past couple months since being more strict about eating a clean Paleo diet. I consume between 20-35g carbs/day and 35-60g protein, the rest is fat.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:58 PM

In my answer I said I didn't know whether ketosis lowers blood sugar in diabetics. Since then I've read the following paper which found that it does, at least in mild cases. Cahill GF, et al. "Hormone-fuel interrelationships during fasting." J Clin Invest. 1966 Nov;45(11):1751-69. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5926444

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:49 PM

Borofergie, please never hesitate to disagree and even argue with me. I'm as fallible as anyone. I think you might be right because, for one thing, sustained high ketosis over a period of weeks causes the brain to use less glucose and more ketones. Therefore, it seems plausible that episodes of hypoglycemia might be less bothersome. In my answer above I thought only of the literal meaning of hypoglycemia -- low blood sugar -- and whether ketosis makes it lower or higher. But I think you're right to interpret the question more generally as, "Will ketosis make me feel better?"

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:37 PM

(...continued) The personal blogs or journals will be the most important part of the site. I want other people, sick people, to experiment with ketogenic diet as a treatment and report their results. The doctors should have done these studies 80 years ago but didn't. Well, actually, in some cases they did, but the results were ignored. To make the site work, other people have to get excited about it. So far it's been just me working alone. Hopefully other people will get interested and that will motivate me to work harder on it. Your compliment is encouraging and I really appreciate it!

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:36 PM

(...continued) I've also been doing a great deal of self-experimentation to prepare for the site. I bought a hospital grade glucose meter and have spent about $1000 on test strips over the last few months. I've been dragging my heels on getting the site going but I really do hope to have it up and running in about a month. The site is only going to work if other people are interested and contribute to it. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:36 PM

(...continued) People make many assumptions about the effects of certain foods, the time course of various interventions, etc. etc., and in fact, in many cases, nobody has tested these things. There are many practical questions that could only be answered by locking people in metabolic wards for 30 days or longer, and nobody's going to do experiments of that kind to answer these sorts of questions. Therefore the only way we can find out is self-experimentation. This is one of the things I hope to encourage and -- is orchestrate too strong a word? -- on the website. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:36 PM

(...continued) Over the last few months I've been reading the scientific literature on ketosis starting in the 1850s when a ketone was discovered for the first time in a body fluid. You can get an idea of what I've been reading by looking at "Bibliography" in the main menu on www.ketocure.com. Check out the pages on "Ketosis and fasting" and "Ketogenic diets." One of the things that strikes me as I read this literature carefully is how many facts aren't known. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:36 PM

Hi Borofergie. Thanks very much for the compliment. I've thought about writing a book on ketosis, and I've had conversations with the author of a well known paleo nutrition book about the two of us writing one together, but I finally decided to finish my website first (ketocure.com), because it's going to be place where people will be enouraged to do a lot of self-testing and report the results in personal blogs and on the forum. We'll all learn a huge amount, and then I'll be better prepared to write a book. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:26 PM

(...continued) The personal blogs or journals will be the most important part of the site. I want other people, sick people, to experiment with ketogenic diet as a treatment and report their results. The doctors should have done these studies 80 years ago but didn't. Well, actually, in some cases they did, but the results were ignored. To make the site work, other people have to get excited about it. So far it's been just me working alone. Hopefully other people will get interested and that will motivate me to work harder on it. Your compliment is encouraging and I really appreciate it!

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:26 PM

(...continued) I've also been doing a great deal of self-experimentation to prepare for the site. I bought a hospital grade glucose meter and have spent about $1000 on test strips over the last few months. I've been dragging my heels on getting the site going but I really do hope to have it up and running in about a month. The site is only going to work if other people are interested and contribute to it. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:24 PM

(...continued) The personal blogs or journals will be the most important part of the site. I want other people, sick people, to experiment with ketogenic diet as a treatment and report their results. The doctors should have done these studies 80 years ago but didn't. Well, actually, in some cases they did, but the results were ignored. To make the site work, other people have to get excited about it. So far it's been just me working alone. Hopefully other people will get interested and that will motivate me to work harder on it. Your compliment is encouraging and I really appreciate it!

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:24 PM

The personal blogs or journals will be the most important part of the site. I want other people, sick people, to experiment with ketogenic diet as a treatment and report their results. The doctors should have done these studies 80 years ago but didn't. Well, actually, in some cases they did, but the results were ignored. To make the site work, other people have to get excited about it. So far it's been just me working alone. Hopefully other people will get interested and that will motivate me to work harder on it. Your compliment is encouraging and I really appreciate it!

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:21 PM

(...continued) I've also been doing a great deal of self-experimentation to prepare for the site. I bought a hospital grade glucose meter and have spent about $1000 on test strips over the last few months. I've been dragging my heals on getting the site going but I really do hope to have it up and running in about a month. The site is only going to work if other people are interested and contribute to it. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:18 PM

(...continued) People make many assumptions about the effects of certain foods, the time course of various interventions, etc. etc., and in fact, in many cases, nobody has tested these things. There are many practical questions that could only be answered by locking people in metabolic wards for 30 days or longer, and nobody's going to do experiments of that kind to answer these sorts of questions. Therefore the only way we can find out is self-experimentation. This is one of the things I hope to encourage and -- is orchestrate too strong a word? -- on the website. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:16 PM

(...continued) Over the last few months I've been reading the scientific literature on ketosis starting in the 1850s when a ketone was discovered for the first time in a body fluid. You can get an idea of what I've been reading by looking at "Bibliography" in the main menu on www.ketocure.com. Check out the pages on "Ketosis and fasting" and "Ketogenic diets." One of the things that strikes me as I read this literature carefully is how many facts aren't known. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:12 PM

Hi Borofergie. Thanks very much for the compliment. I've thought about writing a book on ketosis, and I've had conversations with the author of a well known paleo nutrition book about the two of us writing one together (it's someone very well known and I was flattered that he asked me) but I finally decided to finish my website first (ketocure.com), because it's going to be place where people will be enouraged to do a lot of self-testing and report the results in personal blogs and on the forum. We'll all learn a huge amount. (Continued...)

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on December 03, 2012
at 11:15 PM

Why don't YOU write a book about practical ketosis RobS. I'd buy it...

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on December 03, 2012
at 11:05 PM

I wouldn't disagree with RobS about anything to do with ketosis, but I do think that ketosis helps protect against hypoglycemia, because the much reduced need for glucose, results is lower but more stable BG readings. Hypoglycemia is usually caused by rapid swings. Low and stable is probably fine.

93eea7754e6e94b6085dbabbb48c0bb7

on October 03, 2012
at 09:21 PM

Actually potatoes are the only carb source I consistently avoid because they seem to welcome binging.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 03, 2012
at 04:46 AM

I also do grassfed beef bone broth and marrow, leaving the tallow in, use Great Lakes gelatin, eat 2 layer bristling sardines, and take a bit of kelp flakes for iodine.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 03, 2012
at 04:33 AM

a therapeutic level of ketosis and supplement. I currently eat beef and cod liver often and will add more Vit C to balance the omega 3. I also eat 2 Brazil nuts and 4 egg yolks per day along with ghee. I am familiar with the difference between palm and palm kernel oil and I have the red palm fruit oil at home. I already supplement with CoQ10, magnesium glycinate, milk thistle, Celtic sea salt, and trace mineral drops in all the fluids I drink as well as dandelion tea and HCl. If you have any other recommendations I will gladly hear them.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 03, 2012
at 04:27 AM

thank you for the links. I will be very careful to make sure I am not missing nutrients. from reading about the kidney stone risk, I know I should supplement Vit C, drink enough water, consume enough salt, and make sure I am not generating too much uric acid. I will look up the ketogenic textbook to read. I want to prove that I am capable of achieving ketosis/ketogenesis to see if it is effective since I am wondering if being on Accutane twice might have damaged my liver to the point where I can't generate enough ketones or thrive on a LC diet. I will carefully approach (continued)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:49 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11095028

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:48 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17621514

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:45 AM

I remained on a pretty hard-core therapeutic diet for about 18 months (cycling off a few times to see if my migraines were cured) and finally went back to a normal diet a couple of months ago. I happen to be fasting now for reasons that have nothing to do with migraine.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:38 AM

I can imagine how bad your brain fog feels, and probably it's an effort for you to read a lot of scientific papers. So let me link (in the next comment) just one that summarizes some of the science about ketogenic diets.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:32 AM

You asked how long I've been doing this. Like you, I tried to do this ineffectually for several years by following a low carb diet. I was misled by advice in books by Atkins and similar authors. After several years of that, I decided (wrongly) that diet couldn't help my migraines. In desperation I launched myself into a 30-day fast in November 2010. That's when I really started. While I was on the fast I began reading the actual scientific/medical literature about ketosis and finally learned how this stuff works. When the fast ended, I placed myself on a therapeutic keto diet.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:27 AM

You asked about palm oil. Don't confuse palm oil with palm KERNEL oil. They are two different things. Palm kernel oil is the ketogenic one. I don't think I've ever tried either.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:25 AM

You asked if I have experience changes in sleep. Yes, high ketosis causes insomnia in many people including me. You asked if it affected my blood sugar. I'm not sure because (as I explained above) home glucose meters are pretty worthless at low levels. I only finally broke down last week and bought a HemoCue 201 so I can finally test my glucose levels accurately. Right now I'm on day 14 of a fast, and my blood glucose is in the low 60s. It will be interesting to see if it remains low on a eucaloric diet.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:22 AM

http://www.amazon.com/Epilepsy-Ketogenic-Diet-Nutrition-Health/dp/1617374776/tag=realizatorg

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:19 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19596731

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:18 AM

The book is "Epilepsy and the Ketogenic Diet" by Stafstrom and Rho. The title sounds like it's only about epilepsy but actually it's the standard scientific textbook about ketogenic diets in general. It has that title because most scientific research about ketogenic diets has been conducted in the context of treatment of epilepsy. Actually the book covers ketogenic diet from all angles: clinical, biochemistry, history, etc.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:16 AM

You asked for links about kidney stones and mineralization. I happen to know a paper off the top of my head about kidney stones, and I'll link it in the next comment. I don't have time to look for a paper on mineralization. Since you're a student, and obviously an intelligent person, what I recommend is that you get a copy of the standard scientific textbook on ketogenic diets from the library and read it. It will explain everything you need to know.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:11 AM

You asked about gelatin. Like most proteins, it's basically glucogenic. Some amino acids are exclusively glucogenic, some can be converted either way (glucose or ketones) by the body, and only two are exclusively ketogenic (leucine and lysine) are exclusively ketogenic. For any given protein-based food, you can look up the amino composition and check.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:04 AM

You wrote, "I am eating an extremely nutrient dense diet otherwise..." The diet I just recommended to you is about 90% fat by calories. 90 percent! It cannot be nutrient dense because it consists almost entirely of fat. If you're planning to stay on this kind of diet for for than a few weeks, you must supplement. This is why I suggested trying it for just a few days and then dialing back. But even if you dial it back to a point (for example) where your BHB is around 2.0 or 3.0 mmol/dL, most likely you still won't be getting enough plant-supplied nutrients.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:00 AM

You wrote, "Don't be concerned; I have read a lot about ketogenic diets..." This makes me more concerned, not less. The kind of diet we're discussing here is radically different from so-called ketogenic diets in popular books and articles written for the general public. That's why I keep saying THERAPEUTIC ketogenic diet. If you're going to follow this kind of diet for any length of time, it's imperative that you read some of the medical and scientific literature (links are on my site) and familiarize yourself with the risks.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 02, 2012
at 11:25 PM

can you link to sources about the kidney stones and demineralization? I have heard about ketogenic diets impacting thyroid function and nutrient levels. have you experienced any sleeping problems or changes in your blood glucose levels since starting a ketogenic diet? how long have you been pursuing this? do you have any recommendations on using palm oil? I have some and would like to use it because of its high Vit E level

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 02, 2012
at 11:20 PM

don't be concerned; I have read a lot about ketogenic diets and am even going to write a paper on them this semester...I am eating an extremely nutrient dense diet otherwise and supplementing wisely (I think). besides, I don't think my functionality could get much worse at this point! I will try spices with the tallow I rendered--your point about tallow being more natural than coconut oil really makes sense when I think about it--probably use a bunch of turmeric. do you know if supplementing with gelatin (maybe half a tbsp/about 6g protein) would lead to glucogenic levels of protein intake?

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:50 PM

An afterthought: I'm feeling a little concerned that I've encouraged you to try a heavy-duty therapeutic ketogenic diet without a doctor's supervision. I feel obliged to emphasize that this kind of diet isn't healthy in the long run and can lead to problems like kidney stones and bone demineralization. Doctors often give kids huge doses of potassium citrate as a prophylactic against kidney stones. But of course for a short time it's harmless and you will be able to make the diet more mild.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:47 PM

About fiber. Fiber is carbohydrate, but it doesn't get absorbed into our bodies in the form of carbohydrate. It gets transformed into fatty acids (chiefly butyrate) in our colons by friendly bacteria, and we absorb the fatty acids. So really, when you eat fiber, you're "eating" (absorbing) fatty acids. I would expect this to promote (or not interfere with) ketosis but I don't know for sure.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:32 PM

The above link shows one of these weird meals. There's your whack of beef (one quarter of my daily dose of protein) in a pool of melted tallow. Eating this way for a long time would be unhealthy -- it can lead to kidney stones, bone demineralization, and malnutrition -- but this kind of diet is temporary. I think of it as a course of treatment that will last months to (at most) a year or two.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:30 PM

http://ketocure.com/art/beef-in-tallow-4-to-1.340.jpg

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:30 PM

/art/beef-in-tallow-4-to-1.340.jpg

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:29 PM

Here's a picture of one of these weird meals. This is one quarter of my daily allowance of meat in a small pool of tallow. /art/beef-in-tallow-4-to-1.340.jpg

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:27 PM

Exactly right. For three or four days, eat just a little bit of beef with a ton of tallow or butter. If you can, divide it into four equal meals to make the insulin impact as small as possible. It's a weird diet but it's only for a few days until you start to get into high ketosis and you become convinced that this really works. Then if you want you can adjust the diet and make it less radical. I ate this way for many months. Spices help a lot. I actually got into the habit of eating mashed tallow with cumin mixed. It's amazing what you can develop a taste for. (Continued...)

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 02, 2012
at 04:09 PM

thank you RobS. I like your tips and I think you're probably right about the tallow. I will drop my protein and eliminate carbs. maybe a butter-tallow diet for a few days with a whack of beef. does fiber count in the carbohydrate load against achieving ketosis? I am dealing with severe brain fog and depression and am desperate

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 03:19 AM

You wrote: "I keep thinking I am eating a low enough level of carbs and protein but I must not be." Why would you think that when your meter is telling you otherwise? The body doesn't like to be in higher than mild ketosis. It only does it when you take extreme measures. I promise you, I really promise you, if you reduce your protein to 41 g/day and eliminate all carbs, you will see much higher readings on your meter within 3 or 4 days. It's not enough to eliminate carbs. You must also reduce protein. Both protein and carbs are glucogenic.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 03:14 AM

Large amounts of coconut oil and MCT oil make me queasy too. It's obvious to me that my bod "feels" there is something wrong with them. I don't regard either of these foods as paleo and I generally avoid them. I think grassfed tallow (rendered beef fat) is probably the safest fat to eat in large quantities. Here's a tip: it tastes best if rendered at the lowest possible temperature. I render mine in very warm water. I don't let it boil or even simmer.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 03:08 AM

Of course your mileage may vary. Everyone's body is different. But in my case, medium-to-high ketosis has always felt unpleasant and still does. You may feel invigorated and energetic but that has not been my experience. Sometimes when I feel really crappy I'll eat a half a carrot or 15 grams of rice syrup (which is nearly pure glucose and short glucose polymers) to raise my blood sugar for a few minutes. The doctors do the same thing with epileptic kids except they use orange juice. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 03:05 AM

Ketosis is a matter of degree. Many people seem to feel good at low levels of ketosis. Usually when people on sites like this one talk about ketosis, they are talking about low levels, even though they think they are talking about high levels. At higher levels, which is where you may want to be for therapeutic purposes, it may not feel so good. To me, medium-and-high ketosis is pretty unpleasant. My body thinks it's starving (this type of diet simulates starvation) and it wants to conserve energy, so it makes me feel tired and listless so I won't move. (Continued...)

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 02, 2012
at 01:05 AM

is it easier to stay in ketosis once your body gets used to it? I will try zero carb. I keep thinking I am eating a low enough level of carbs and protein but I must not be. I think I am in that in-between lethargic space between low BG and low ketones. I really want to feel ketosis, to know if it could help me. I am learning to tolerate high MCT coconut oil but more than a tbsp still makes me sick. I like animal fats and ghee a lot. thank you so much for your comprehensive response.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 02, 2012
at 01:02 AM

I keep wanting a quick solution but I know it can take months to get healthy again...not sure of D3 but I am going to get it checked soon. I try to get sun.

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on October 01, 2012
at 09:20 PM

Seriously - I can eat tons of fat and keep going (coconut oil or butter all by itself, for example), but animal protein puts the brakes on pretty quickly.

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on October 01, 2012
at 09:18 PM

Contrary to what is generally said about fat being the most satiating nutrient, I've found that, for me, at least, *protein* fills me up like nobody's business. I don't think you need to be at ketogenic levels of carbs at your weight and height unless you have a specific issue you're trying to correct. 35-60 g of protein is not all that much for an adult woman...

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on October 01, 2012
at 09:15 PM

Agree -- at 5'4" and 112, it's likely you're actually *underweight,* and your body is giving you signals to eat more because it *needs you to!*

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on October 01, 2012
at 08:21 PM

It may take some time 6 months or so) to get yourself to depletion nutrient-wise. How is your D3 level?

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 01, 2012
at 05:09 PM

I take mag, I think I am getting enough zinc but I don't supplement with it (my plasma levels say I am okay), yes I eat liver every few days and seafood with the same frequency but I have only been eating that well for the past couple months

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 01, 2012
at 05:08 PM

a couple months

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 01, 2012
at 05:07 PM

I appreciate your response, but I have a problem controlling my carb intake when I start to eat carbs, so I think it's best for me to avoid them. but I won't rule out the idea completely! maybe a whack of sweet potatoes will do me well one day

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 01, 2012
at 05:07 PM

that is entirely possible as I have weighed about 20lbs more than I currently do for most of my adult life

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 01, 2012
at 05:06 PM

thank you for your response, it helps a lot. I have been trying to limit my protein per Ron Rosedale and Nora Gedgaudas' guidelines but admittedly it is hard to do, so I will make a better effort now. my carbs come from vegetables or trace amounts from coconut, nut, avocado, etc, but I will curb them too. I haven't tried to measure my BG with the meter yet but my last blood test since going paleo puts my fasting BGL higher than it has been in the past. I am mostly trying to heal my brain with ketones, so I am motivated to do what it takes to achieve ketosis/ketogenesis. thanks again

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on September 30, 2012
at 11:10 PM

How on have you been trying?

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on September 30, 2012
at 10:59 PM

i use a blood ketone meter and the highest i've been is 0.6mmol i also don't experience any of the 'signs' of being in ketosis, and i feel hypoglycemic often

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6 Answers

7
Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on September 30, 2012
at 11:33 PM

I would address the binges and not worry so much about ketosis.

Chances are that you are binging because you are needing some micronutrients.

Are you taking Magnesium?

Getting enough Zinc?

Do you eat liver? Seafood?

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 01, 2012
at 05:09 PM

I take mag, I think I am getting enough zinc but I don't supplement with it (my plasma levels say I am okay), yes I eat liver every few days and seafood with the same frequency but I have only been eating that well for the past couple months

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on October 01, 2012
at 08:21 PM

It may take some time 6 months or so) to get yourself to depletion nutrient-wise. How is your D3 level?

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 02, 2012
at 01:02 AM

I keep wanting a quick solution but I know it can take months to get healthy again...not sure of D3 but I am going to get it checked soon. I try to get sun.

2
82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 01, 2012
at 07:11 AM

Your carbs and protein are too high. Here's what I suggest. For a few days, eat only 0.8 grams of protein for each kilogram of your ideal body weight. You weigh 112 pounds, so at most that's 41 grams of protein. The rest of the diet will be fat. No carbs at all. Make sure you're really measuring accurately and really counting every calorie you swallow. Every single calorie. People tend to eat more than they think they are eating.

Limit your overall calories to whatever amount maintains your weight on a long-term basis.

By the third or fourth day, and probably sooner, I guarantee your ketone meter will read higher than 0.6 unless it's broken. After that, if you want, you can gradually add some carbs back in until your ketones fall.

I ate that exact diet for months to treat my migraines, with about ten grams of carbs thrown in from things like celery. My blood ketones (plasma beta-hydroxybutyrate) averaged about 6.5 mmol/dL. That's 10 times higher than your reading. To get that high probably takes a few weeks.

I think it's very unlikely that ghee is lowering your ketones. If anything it's adding ketones to your blood because it contains ketogenic fatty acids. Dairy fat is ketogenic.

Formulas and prescriptions are only rough guidelines. You have to adjust your diet according to what the blood meter tells you. Trust the meter, not formulas. Your ketones are low so obviously you have to adjust the diet. The easiest way to make the adjustment is to crank the volume up all the way (in other words, restrict protein to 0.8 g/kg and eliminate carbs). Then gradually dial it down.

By the way, you can gain weight on this kind of diet if you eat too much. People have the idea that you can't gain fat when your ketosis is high. It's not true. I've added a few inches to my waist on this sort of diet and had to reduce calories to lose it. In fact I've gone through several cycles like that, with my waist expanding and shrinking several inches.

If you are doing this in order to treat your hypoglycemia, I'm not sure ketosis will help. When you cause ketosis by removing glucogenic foods from the diet, blood glucose and ketones usually move inversely. In other words, as ketones rise, glucose falls and vice versa. (I don't know if this applies to diabetics.)

The whole point of this kind of ketosis from the body's point of view is to reduce its use of glucose. Ketones are just a means to an end. The end is lowered glucose consumption. That's why blood glucose falls.

You may be tempted to use your ketone meter to check your glucose level to see if you're hypoglycemic. Unfortunately neither of the two existing blood ketone meters (Precision Xtra and Nova Max Plus) is capable of measuring low glucose levels. The Nova Max Plus starts giving crazy high results when glucose gets below about 80. I've gone through dozens of glucose test strips with the Nova and never once did it show a blood glucose lower than 80 even when my blood glucose was actually in the low 60s. In fact just a few hours ago my Nova told me my glucose is 103 when it was actually in the low 60s. The Xtra's a little better but it becomes erratic somewhere around 70. I've tried about five different home glucose meters and they all have this problem. The only way I've found to measure low glucose levels accurately at home is with a HemoCue 201 which costs about $400. (The reason I know my real blood glucose is the HemoCue, plus the fact that I've been fasting for twelve days, so my glucose should be in the low 60s.)

These comments apply only to glucose readings. The Xtra and Nova Plus are very accurate when measuring ketones (BHB).

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 01, 2012
at 05:06 PM

thank you for your response, it helps a lot. I have been trying to limit my protein per Ron Rosedale and Nora Gedgaudas' guidelines but admittedly it is hard to do, so I will make a better effort now. my carbs come from vegetables or trace amounts from coconut, nut, avocado, etc, but I will curb them too. I haven't tried to measure my BG with the meter yet but my last blood test since going paleo puts my fasting BGL higher than it has been in the past. I am mostly trying to heal my brain with ketones, so I am motivated to do what it takes to achieve ketosis/ketogenesis. thanks again

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on December 03, 2012
at 11:05 PM

I wouldn't disagree with RobS about anything to do with ketosis, but I do think that ketosis helps protect against hypoglycemia, because the much reduced need for glucose, results is lower but more stable BG readings. Hypoglycemia is usually caused by rapid swings. Low and stable is probably fine.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:49 PM

Borofergie, please never hesitate to disagree and even argue with me. I'm as fallible as anyone. I think you might be right because, for one thing, sustained high ketosis over a period of weeks causes the brain to use less glucose and more ketones. Therefore, it seems plausible that episodes of hypoglycemia might be less bothersome. In my answer above I thought only of the literal meaning of hypoglycemia -- low blood sugar -- and whether ketosis makes it lower or higher. But I think you're right to interpret the question more generally as, "Will ketosis make me feel better?"

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:58 PM

In my answer I said I didn't know whether ketosis lowers blood sugar in diabetics. Since then I've read the following paper which found that it does, at least in mild cases. Cahill GF, et al. "Hormone-fuel interrelationships during fasting." J Clin Invest. 1966 Nov;45(11):1751-69. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5926444

2
93eea7754e6e94b6085dbabbb48c0bb7

on October 01, 2012
at 01:03 AM

Maybe you need to take a break from ketosis and do some carb cycling-- I have started to do this with berries, butternut squash, and steamed carrots (potatoes, even sweet, are too heavy for me!) and I feel much better. I also eat these foods separate from the rest of my meals for maximum digestion especially since they will secrete more insulin. I feel higher energy and I don't feel the need to over-eat ever. Actually my appetite has decreased too much! I hope this helps.

And also you'd be surprised how many carbs you can get away with while still staying low carb. It is the best of both worlds, in my opinion.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 01, 2012
at 05:07 PM

I appreciate your response, but I have a problem controlling my carb intake when I start to eat carbs, so I think it's best for me to avoid them. but I won't rule out the idea completely! maybe a whack of sweet potatoes will do me well one day

93eea7754e6e94b6085dbabbb48c0bb7

on October 03, 2012
at 09:21 PM

Actually potatoes are the only carb source I consistently avoid because they seem to welcome binging.

2
B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on September 30, 2012
at 10:14 PM

No. Too much carbohydrate or protein will knock you out of ketosis, too much fat generally will not. You do get some gluconeogenesis from the glycerol part of triglycerides (at about 10% by weight), but you'd have to eat an incredible amount for fat for that to be a factor.

From your macros are (at the top end): 35g Carbs 60g Protein 235g Fat

From these you can calculate the ketogenic ratio (1,2) of your diet:

KR=(Fat * .9 + Protein * .46) / (Carb * 1 + Protein * .58 + Fat * .1)

  • < 1.0 Not ketogenic, if healthy you won???t register ketones
  • 1.0 ??? 1.5 Mildly ketogenic, you may register ketones at this level
  • 1.5 ??? 2.0 Ketogenic, most people will register ketones
  • > 2.0 Very ketogenic, you should definitely see ketones in this range

Your score is 2.56 which should be highly ketogenic. The KR is only a rough indicator, but you should be producing ketones at that level.

Why do you think that you are not in ketosis? Ketostix are a pretty unreliable indicator.

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on September 30, 2012
at 11:10 PM

How on have you been trying?

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on September 30, 2012
at 10:59 PM

i use a blood ketone meter and the highest i've been is 0.6mmol i also don't experience any of the 'signs' of being in ketosis, and i feel hypoglycemic often

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 01, 2012
at 05:08 PM

a couple months

1
82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 01, 2012
at 08:29 PM

thank you for your response, it helps a lot.

You're welcome.

I am mostly trying to heal my brain with ketones...

That's why I did it too. In my case, migraine. Ketosis can be an effective treatment for some neurological diseases. It has been used for nearly a century to treat epilepsy in children, and it helped my migraines tremendously.

I have been trying to limit my protein per Ron Rosedale and Nora Gedgaudas' guidelines...

I haven't read their work but you may be making the same mistake I made. For a couple of years I wasted time trying to learn how to enter high (therapeutic) ketosis from books by people who aren't experts on therapeutic ketosis. Finally I discovered the extensive medical literature on therapeutic ketosis and learned how to adjust my ketosis however I want it. You've made a great start by buying a blood ketone meter. A goood place to begin is with books and websites for parents of kids with epilepsy. The original ketogenic diet -- the one that neurologists call the ketogenic diet -- was invented for epileptic kids in the 1920s. I've put a lot of links about this stuff on my website (which unfortunately is under construction):

Scientific papers on ketogenic diet

Books on medical ketogenic diet

Links to sites about medical ketogenic diet

Finally, it's very useful to know that there are two ways to raise blood ketones. First, you can add ketogenic foods to your diet: MCT oil, coconut oil, palm kernel oil, branched chain amino acids, and dairy fat. I've listed them in order of what I imagine is their ketogenicity but I don't recall seeing any test results to back up my impression. If anybody knows of such tests, I'd appreciate a link. These foods tend to raise blood ketones regardless of whatever else is in your diet.

For some illnesses, this type of "ketosis" may be enough. Dr. Mary Newport has reported good results with this approach with Alzheimer's disease. (See links on my site.)

The other way of raising ketosis is to remove foods from which the body can manufacture glucose. This includes both carbs and protein. This is the basis of "the" ketogenic diet (the classical medical diet invented in the 1920s). This is what you've been trying to do, but unsuccessfully because you didn't realize how drastically carbs and protein have to be limited. A lot of research has been done in this area by pediatric neurologists. The two books linked on my site (both of them about diet for kids with epilepsy) explain how to construct this kind of diet in excruciating detail.

my carbs come from vegetables or trace amounts from coconut, nut, avocado, etc, but I will curb them too...

A teensy amount of carbs can lower ketosis tremendously. You have to experience it yourself to believe it. Sometimes my ketosis gets too high (meter readings of 7.5 aren't unusual) and it feels pretty crappy, and I'll eat a single stalk of celery and it has a noticeable effect. That's why I suggested starting with zero carbs and the lowest amount of protein consistent with good health. That will certainly get you into high ketosis (above 3 mmol/dL BHB). Once you've done that, you'll have a better understanding of how this works and what it feels like, and if you want, you can add a little more protein and carbs to your diet and see what happens. It won't take long -- once your glycogen is depleted, which takes 2 or 3 days, it happens rapidly.

Oh, one other thing. About binges. I've noticed (and it seems to be true for most people) that high ketosis suppresses appetite. A lot of people barely get hungry at high levels of ketosis. For example, right now I'm on day 13 of a fast and I'm not hungry.

However, heavy cream seems to override the appetite suppression. Of course dairy isn't paleo, but I mention heavy cream because it's the most palatable pure fatty food and it's used heavily in recipes for kids with childhood epilepsy. I find that it's very easy to pig out on heavy cream. If I swallow a tablespoon of it I can easily go on to drink a pint straight from the container. This seems to be a special property of dairy and it may be caused by the growth-stimulating substances that nature has put in milk. This may be a good thing for kids on these extreme diets but probably not for grown ups. I can tell you from experience that if you pig out on cream this way more than occasionally, you'll quickly get fatter no matter how high your ketosis.

I use grass-fed tallow as my main fat. Coconut oil is probably good too if you can tolerate a large amount.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 03:08 AM

Of course your mileage may vary. Everyone's body is different. But in my case, medium-to-high ketosis has always felt unpleasant and still does. You may feel invigorated and energetic but that has not been my experience. Sometimes when I feel really crappy I'll eat a half a carrot or 15 grams of rice syrup (which is nearly pure glucose and short glucose polymers) to raise my blood sugar for a few minutes. The doctors do the same thing with epileptic kids except they use orange juice. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:50 PM

An afterthought: I'm feeling a little concerned that I've encouraged you to try a heavy-duty therapeutic ketogenic diet without a doctor's supervision. I feel obliged to emphasize that this kind of diet isn't healthy in the long run and can lead to problems like kidney stones and bone demineralization. Doctors often give kids huge doses of potassium citrate as a prophylactic against kidney stones. But of course for a short time it's harmless and you will be able to make the diet more mild.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 02, 2012
at 04:09 PM

thank you RobS. I like your tips and I think you're probably right about the tallow. I will drop my protein and eliminate carbs. maybe a butter-tallow diet for a few days with a whack of beef. does fiber count in the carbohydrate load against achieving ketosis? I am dealing with severe brain fog and depression and am desperate

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:49 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11095028

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:18 AM

The book is "Epilepsy and the Ketogenic Diet" by Stafstrom and Rho. The title sounds like it's only about epilepsy but actually it's the standard scientific textbook about ketogenic diets in general. It has that title because most scientific research about ketogenic diets has been conducted in the context of treatment of epilepsy. Actually the book covers ketogenic diet from all angles: clinical, biochemistry, history, etc.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:48 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17621514

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:47 PM

About fiber. Fiber is carbohydrate, but it doesn't get absorbed into our bodies in the form of carbohydrate. It gets transformed into fatty acids (chiefly butyrate) in our colons by friendly bacteria, and we absorb the fatty acids. So really, when you eat fiber, you're "eating" (absorbing) fatty acids. I would expect this to promote (or not interfere with) ketosis but I don't know for sure.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:32 PM

The above link shows one of these weird meals. There's your whack of beef (one quarter of my daily dose of protein) in a pool of melted tallow. Eating this way for a long time would be unhealthy -- it can lead to kidney stones, bone demineralization, and malnutrition -- but this kind of diet is temporary. I think of it as a course of treatment that will last months to (at most) a year or two.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:32 AM

You asked how long I've been doing this. Like you, I tried to do this ineffectually for several years by following a low carb diet. I was misled by advice in books by Atkins and similar authors. After several years of that, I decided (wrongly) that diet couldn't help my migraines. In desperation I launched myself into a 30-day fast in November 2010. That's when I really started. While I was on the fast I began reading the actual scientific/medical literature about ketosis and finally learned how this stuff works. When the fast ended, I placed myself on a therapeutic keto diet.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 02, 2012
at 11:25 PM

can you link to sources about the kidney stones and demineralization? I have heard about ketogenic diets impacting thyroid function and nutrient levels. have you experienced any sleeping problems or changes in your blood glucose levels since starting a ketogenic diet? how long have you been pursuing this? do you have any recommendations on using palm oil? I have some and would like to use it because of its high Vit E level

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:19 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19596731

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 02, 2012
at 01:05 AM

is it easier to stay in ketosis once your body gets used to it? I will try zero carb. I keep thinking I am eating a low enough level of carbs and protein but I must not be. I think I am in that in-between lethargic space between low BG and low ketones. I really want to feel ketosis, to know if it could help me. I am learning to tolerate high MCT coconut oil but more than a tbsp still makes me sick. I like animal fats and ghee a lot. thank you so much for your comprehensive response.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:38 AM

I can imagine how bad your brain fog feels, and probably it's an effort for you to read a lot of scientific papers. So let me link (in the next comment) just one that summarizes some of the science about ketogenic diets.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:45 AM

I remained on a pretty hard-core therapeutic diet for about 18 months (cycling off a few times to see if my migraines were cured) and finally went back to a normal diet a couple of months ago. I happen to be fasting now for reasons that have nothing to do with migraine.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 03:14 AM

Large amounts of coconut oil and MCT oil make me queasy too. It's obvious to me that my bod "feels" there is something wrong with them. I don't regard either of these foods as paleo and I generally avoid them. I think grassfed tallow (rendered beef fat) is probably the safest fat to eat in large quantities. Here's a tip: it tastes best if rendered at the lowest possible temperature. I render mine in very warm water. I don't let it boil or even simmer.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:30 PM

/art/beef-in-tallow-4-to-1.340.jpg

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:22 AM

http://www.amazon.com/Epilepsy-Ketogenic-Diet-Nutrition-Health/dp/1617374776/tag=realizatorg

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:30 PM

http://ketocure.com/art/beef-in-tallow-4-to-1.340.jpg

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:25 AM

You asked if I have experience changes in sleep. Yes, high ketosis causes insomnia in many people including me. You asked if it affected my blood sugar. I'm not sure because (as I explained above) home glucose meters are pretty worthless at low levels. I only finally broke down last week and bought a HemoCue 201 so I can finally test my glucose levels accurately. Right now I'm on day 14 of a fast, and my blood glucose is in the low 60s. It will be interesting to see if it remains low on a eucaloric diet.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 03, 2012
at 04:33 AM

a therapeutic level of ketosis and supplement. I currently eat beef and cod liver often and will add more Vit C to balance the omega 3. I also eat 2 Brazil nuts and 4 egg yolks per day along with ghee. I am familiar with the difference between palm and palm kernel oil and I have the red palm fruit oil at home. I already supplement with CoQ10, magnesium glycinate, milk thistle, Celtic sea salt, and trace mineral drops in all the fluids I drink as well as dandelion tea and HCl. If you have any other recommendations I will gladly hear them.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 03, 2012
at 04:46 AM

I also do grassfed beef bone broth and marrow, leaving the tallow in, use Great Lakes gelatin, eat 2 layer bristling sardines, and take a bit of kelp flakes for iodine.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:04 AM

You wrote, "I am eating an extremely nutrient dense diet otherwise..." The diet I just recommended to you is about 90% fat by calories. 90 percent! It cannot be nutrient dense because it consists almost entirely of fat. If you're planning to stay on this kind of diet for for than a few weeks, you must supplement. This is why I suggested trying it for just a few days and then dialing back. But even if you dial it back to a point (for example) where your BHB is around 2.0 or 3.0 mmol/dL, most likely you still won't be getting enough plant-supplied nutrients.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 03:05 AM

Ketosis is a matter of degree. Many people seem to feel good at low levels of ketosis. Usually when people on sites like this one talk about ketosis, they are talking about low levels, even though they think they are talking about high levels. At higher levels, which is where you may want to be for therapeutic purposes, it may not feel so good. To me, medium-and-high ketosis is pretty unpleasant. My body thinks it's starving (this type of diet simulates starvation) and it wants to conserve energy, so it makes me feel tired and listless so I won't move. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:11 AM

You asked about gelatin. Like most proteins, it's basically glucogenic. Some amino acids are exclusively glucogenic, some can be converted either way (glucose or ketones) by the body, and only two are exclusively ketogenic (leucine and lysine) are exclusively ketogenic. For any given protein-based food, you can look up the amino composition and check.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 03:19 AM

You wrote: "I keep thinking I am eating a low enough level of carbs and protein but I must not be." Why would you think that when your meter is telling you otherwise? The body doesn't like to be in higher than mild ketosis. It only does it when you take extreme measures. I promise you, I really promise you, if you reduce your protein to 41 g/day and eliminate all carbs, you will see much higher readings on your meter within 3 or 4 days. It's not enough to eliminate carbs. You must also reduce protein. Both protein and carbs are glucogenic.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:00 AM

You wrote, "Don't be concerned; I have read a lot about ketogenic diets..." This makes me more concerned, not less. The kind of diet we're discussing here is radically different from so-called ketogenic diets in popular books and articles written for the general public. That's why I keep saying THERAPEUTIC ketogenic diet. If you're going to follow this kind of diet for any length of time, it's imperative that you read some of the medical and scientific literature (links are on my site) and familiarize yourself with the risks.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:27 AM

You asked about palm oil. Don't confuse palm oil with palm KERNEL oil. They are two different things. Palm kernel oil is the ketogenic one. I don't think I've ever tried either.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:27 PM

Exactly right. For three or four days, eat just a little bit of beef with a ton of tallow or butter. If you can, divide it into four equal meals to make the insulin impact as small as possible. It's a weird diet but it's only for a few days until you start to get into high ketosis and you become convinced that this really works. Then if you want you can adjust the diet and make it less radical. I ate this way for many months. Spices help a lot. I actually got into the habit of eating mashed tallow with cumin mixed. It's amazing what you can develop a taste for. (Continued...)

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 02, 2012
at 11:20 PM

don't be concerned; I have read a lot about ketogenic diets and am even going to write a paper on them this semester...I am eating an extremely nutrient dense diet otherwise and supplementing wisely (I think). besides, I don't think my functionality could get much worse at this point! I will try spices with the tallow I rendered--your point about tallow being more natural than coconut oil really makes sense when I think about it--probably use a bunch of turmeric. do you know if supplementing with gelatin (maybe half a tbsp/about 6g protein) would lead to glucogenic levels of protein intake?

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 03, 2012
at 01:16 AM

You asked for links about kidney stones and mineralization. I happen to know a paper off the top of my head about kidney stones, and I'll link it in the next comment. I don't have time to look for a paper on mineralization. Since you're a student, and obviously an intelligent person, what I recommend is that you get a copy of the standard scientific textbook on ketogenic diets from the library and read it. It will explain everything you need to know.

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on October 02, 2012
at 09:29 PM

Here's a picture of one of these weird meals. This is one quarter of my daily allowance of meat in a small pool of tallow. /art/beef-in-tallow-4-to-1.340.jpg

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 03, 2012
at 04:27 AM

thank you for the links. I will be very careful to make sure I am not missing nutrients. from reading about the kidney stone risk, I know I should supplement Vit C, drink enough water, consume enough salt, and make sure I am not generating too much uric acid. I will look up the ketogenic textbook to read. I want to prove that I am capable of achieving ketosis/ketogenesis to see if it is effective since I am wondering if being on Accutane twice might have damaged my liver to the point where I can't generate enough ketones or thrive on a LC diet. I will carefully approach (continued)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:26 PM

(...continued) I've also been doing a great deal of self-experimentation to prepare for the site. I bought a hospital grade glucose meter and have spent about $1000 on test strips over the last few months. I've been dragging my heels on getting the site going but I really do hope to have it up and running in about a month. The site is only going to work if other people are interested and contribute to it. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:36 PM

Hi Borofergie. Thanks very much for the compliment. I've thought about writing a book on ketosis, and I've had conversations with the author of a well known paleo nutrition book about the two of us writing one together, but I finally decided to finish my website first (ketocure.com), because it's going to be place where people will be enouraged to do a lot of self-testing and report the results in personal blogs and on the forum. We'll all learn a huge amount, and then I'll be better prepared to write a book. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:24 PM

The personal blogs or journals will be the most important part of the site. I want other people, sick people, to experiment with ketogenic diet as a treatment and report their results. The doctors should have done these studies 80 years ago but didn't. Well, actually, in some cases they did, but the results were ignored. To make the site work, other people have to get excited about it. So far it's been just me working alone. Hopefully other people will get interested and that will motivate me to work harder on it. Your compliment is encouraging and I really appreciate it!

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:36 PM

(...continued) People make many assumptions about the effects of certain foods, the time course of various interventions, etc. etc., and in fact, in many cases, nobody has tested these things. There are many practical questions that could only be answered by locking people in metabolic wards for 30 days or longer, and nobody's going to do experiments of that kind to answer these sorts of questions. Therefore the only way we can find out is self-experimentation. This is one of the things I hope to encourage and -- is orchestrate too strong a word? -- on the website. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:18 PM

(...continued) People make many assumptions about the effects of certain foods, the time course of various interventions, etc. etc., and in fact, in many cases, nobody has tested these things. There are many practical questions that could only be answered by locking people in metabolic wards for 30 days or longer, and nobody's going to do experiments of that kind to answer these sorts of questions. Therefore the only way we can find out is self-experimentation. This is one of the things I hope to encourage and -- is orchestrate too strong a word? -- on the website. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:36 PM

(...continued) I've also been doing a great deal of self-experimentation to prepare for the site. I bought a hospital grade glucose meter and have spent about $1000 on test strips over the last few months. I've been dragging my heels on getting the site going but I really do hope to have it up and running in about a month. The site is only going to work if other people are interested and contribute to it. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:26 PM

(...continued) The personal blogs or journals will be the most important part of the site. I want other people, sick people, to experiment with ketogenic diet as a treatment and report their results. The doctors should have done these studies 80 years ago but didn't. Well, actually, in some cases they did, but the results were ignored. To make the site work, other people have to get excited about it. So far it's been just me working alone. Hopefully other people will get interested and that will motivate me to work harder on it. Your compliment is encouraging and I really appreciate it!

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on December 03, 2012
at 11:15 PM

Why don't YOU write a book about practical ketosis RobS. I'd buy it...

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:24 PM

(...continued) The personal blogs or journals will be the most important part of the site. I want other people, sick people, to experiment with ketogenic diet as a treatment and report their results. The doctors should have done these studies 80 years ago but didn't. Well, actually, in some cases they did, but the results were ignored. To make the site work, other people have to get excited about it. So far it's been just me working alone. Hopefully other people will get interested and that will motivate me to work harder on it. Your compliment is encouraging and I really appreciate it!

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:21 PM

(...continued) I've also been doing a great deal of self-experimentation to prepare for the site. I bought a hospital grade glucose meter and have spent about $1000 on test strips over the last few months. I've been dragging my heals on getting the site going but I really do hope to have it up and running in about a month. The site is only going to work if other people are interested and contribute to it. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:36 PM

(...continued) Over the last few months I've been reading the scientific literature on ketosis starting in the 1850s when a ketone was discovered for the first time in a body fluid. You can get an idea of what I've been reading by looking at "Bibliography" in the main menu on www.ketocure.com. Check out the pages on "Ketosis and fasting" and "Ketogenic diets." One of the things that strikes me as I read this literature carefully is how many facts aren't known. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:12 PM

Hi Borofergie. Thanks very much for the compliment. I've thought about writing a book on ketosis, and I've had conversations with the author of a well known paleo nutrition book about the two of us writing one together (it's someone very well known and I was flattered that he asked me) but I finally decided to finish my website first (ketocure.com), because it's going to be place where people will be enouraged to do a lot of self-testing and report the results in personal blogs and on the forum. We'll all learn a huge amount. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:16 PM

(...continued) Over the last few months I've been reading the scientific literature on ketosis starting in the 1850s when a ketone was discovered for the first time in a body fluid. You can get an idea of what I've been reading by looking at "Bibliography" in the main menu on www.ketocure.com. Check out the pages on "Ketosis and fasting" and "Ketogenic diets." One of the things that strikes me as I read this literature carefully is how many facts aren't known. (Continued...)

82166cc32b6cf26de33b69f58fb583b1

on December 04, 2012
at 11:37 PM

(...continued) The personal blogs or journals will be the most important part of the site. I want other people, sick people, to experiment with ketogenic diet as a treatment and report their results. The doctors should have done these studies 80 years ago but didn't. Well, actually, in some cases they did, but the results were ignored. To make the site work, other people have to get excited about it. So far it's been just me working alone. Hopefully other people will get interested and that will motivate me to work harder on it. Your compliment is encouraging and I really appreciate it!

1
2a00b9a42e4cb6e489a0e69d20714576

on September 30, 2012
at 11:46 PM

Maybe you microbinge because your bodies setpoint is a higher weight and your truly hungry?

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on October 01, 2012
at 09:15 PM

Agree -- at 5'4" and 112, it's likely you're actually *underweight,* and your body is giving you signals to eat more because it *needs you to!*

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 01, 2012
at 05:07 PM

that is entirely possible as I have weighed about 20lbs more than I currently do for most of my adult life

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