1

votes

Should I ditch my current low-carb routine?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created June 14, 2012 at 4:25 PM

I'll make this as short as possible. I'm currently VLC <50g/day and I do just fine. I also fast 20/4 (10PM-6PM) due to my work schedule. I supplement MCT oil in the mornings, 10g BCAA pre-workout and 6000 UI Vitamin D + 600mg Magnesium + 500mg Glutamine + 1000mg Salmon Oil daily with my first meal.

My primary goal is to build (or simply maintain) muscle while leaning out (abs!)

I follow a low carb diet for the benefits of ketosis. I'm definitely fat-adapted but due to the fact that I'm 22 and live in a college town drinking at least once/twice a week is pretty unavoidable. (I stick to the nor-cal margarita or dry red wine.) I know when I drink it throws me out of ketosis, and it takes 2-4 weeks to get there... am I wasting my time? Would I be better off reintroducing carbs back into my post-WOD meal?

TL;DR For strength gains and leaning out am I better off following a keto diet that is broken once a week due to alcohol consumption or should I go back to utilizing healthy carbs post-WOD on a daily basis?

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 15, 2012
at 01:11 PM

yeah my heart is really feeling a DQ blizzard right now.

Cccb899526fb5908f64176e0a74ed2d9

(2801)

on June 15, 2012
at 08:27 AM

My heart wants peanut butter sammiches and diet coke. Uh-oh.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 11:32 PM

it's not like that, drinking just helps facilitate a good time!

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on June 14, 2012
at 10:03 PM

If people only like you if you keep drinking, do they really like you?

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on June 14, 2012
at 10:02 PM

If people only like you because you keep drinking, do they really like you?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 08:28 PM

Your body is a miraculous and adaptable machine with built in redundancies for protection and survival. An orthorexic mentality tends to lose sight of that.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 08:13 PM

I don't want to give you the impression that I'm incredibly meticulous and regimented. I used to weigh and log everything for sure, but I stopped when I got to college. I follow a rough template now and don't weigh/measure. your body is a miraculous and adaptable machine with built in redundancies for protection and survival. Stay away from processed foods and any other foods you're sensitive to, but definitely don't exclude an entire macronutrient class. That sounds like a fad diet to me whether it be very low fat or very low carb

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 08:12 PM

I don't want to give you the impression that I'm incredibly meticulous and regimented. I used to weigh and log everything for sure, but I stopped when I got to college. I follow a rough template now and don't weigh/measure. Once you build some positive momentum you'll realize you're body is a miraculous and adaptable machine with built in redundancies for protection and survival. Stay away from processed foods and any other foods you're sensitive to, but definitely don't exclude an entire macronutrient class. That sounds like a fad diet to me whether it be very low fat or very low carb

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 07:38 PM

i totally agree, thanks again

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 07:37 PM

worry about what your keto stix are going to read.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 07:31 PM

No problem and I appreciate the compliment. I certainly don't know most of the science that a lot of the people on here do, but I know how my body works and, supposing I am not a freak of nature, I assume that roughly the same principles will work for others (assuming they're not freaks of nature either). Also, being in a catabolic state (calorie deficit OR a carb deficit) for an extended period is stressful and will do your physique or mentality no favors. You're young and should be able to walk to get ice cream with your girlfriend and go out with your friends without having to ...

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 07:00 PM

Thanks a lot man, I really appreciate the info. I've actually started looking for your responses all over PH because you just seem to know what your talking about. I'm going to start experimenting with additional carbs after my workouts, primarily sweet potatoes.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:48 PM

...don't count the carbs in broccoli, spinach, asparagus etc. They're mostly indigestible and don't go towards filling muscle glycogen. Count things like peppers, tomatoes, onions, starch, fruit, and other obvious carbs like sugar.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:47 PM

Zone proportions are 40% carbs, 30% protein, and 30% fat. You could also do a protein emphasized zone and do 40% protein, 30% carbs, and 30% fat.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:46 PM

what do you mean by "zone" proportions? thanks

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:43 PM

http://i.qkme.me/3owekp.jpg (NSFW)

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:42 PM

You could try doing zone proportions- many cross fitters seem to have success with that. Here is a good recipe blog about someone who is cross fit and has had great success with a strict paleo-zone approach. his blog http://stevepaleo.blogspot.com/. I go by meal macros, not daily macros. I choose the macros of my meals based on my activity level and the time of the day.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:33 PM

What P/C/F ratios would one recommend for lean muscle gain? I'm assuming that by adding in carbs I need to back down on my fat consumption.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:33 PM

...you can essentially create mini bulking and mini cutting phases periodically throughout the day, as opposed to going a month long bulks and month long cuts.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:32 PM

As opposed to an on/off switch, I see (muscle) anabolism and (fat) catabolism as a sliding scale, where the degrees can be manipulated on moment to moment basis throughout the day with correct nutrition and exercise stimuli.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on June 14, 2012
at 06:14 PM

So THAT is how you got your handle--following your heart.

1407bd6152d9fdbc239250385159fea1

on June 14, 2012
at 06:08 PM

@foreveryoung: Quoting myself "though they're not impossible simultaneously, building muscle and leaning out are antagonistic goals." I'm not saying that it cannot be done, I'm merely stating that under no circumstances are the two synergistic endeavors. Growth and loss are best achieved when it's all systems go in one direction. Also, yes, your statement is fine in the sense that mathematically, body fat percentage decreases if one gains muscle faster than fat; however, I was referring more specifically to the increase of total muscle mass and the decrease of total fat mass--that is difficult

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:53 PM

@Potato Avenger thanks for the info, I think I'll add in carbs but only post-WOD

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:52 PM

@Potato Avenger good info, I think I'll add in carbs but only post-WOD.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:51 PM

@foreveryoung you mind expanding that thought?

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:51 PM

@foreveryoung you mind expanding that thought? maybe with a separate answer?

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:40 PM

If I want my phone to keep ringing, it is ;)

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:34 PM

If I want my phone to keep ringing, it certainly is.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:09 PM

I disagree with the assumption that you can not build muscle and lean out at the same time. If you build muscle at a faster rate than you gain fat, you're body fat percentage will decrease, and you'll recomposition your physique. I also believe that you can lose fat and gain muscle at the shame time.

  • De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

    asked by

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3 Answers

4
1407bd6152d9fdbc239250385159fea1

on June 14, 2012
at 05:06 PM

Alright, so coming from another college student, here's what I got:

First off, drinking copious amounts of booze will kick you out of ketosis, but only temporarily, and though it varies from person to person, I don't think it will take you nearly as long as even 2 weeks to get back into a keto-state. Remember, ketosis is a sliding scale, not an on/off switch.

Secondly, though they're not impossible simultaneously, building muscle and leaning out are antagonistic goals. When most people attempt the two at once in a sort of 'recomposition' fashion, they most often just end up spinning their wheels or at best, embarking upon a very lengthy process. With that said, I suggest you select one goal as your main objective, and gameplan from there. If you choose . . .

  • Fat Loss: Sticking with a ketogenic diet is fine, so long as you're not doing anything more glycogen-dependent than strength training--CrossFit is not strength training.

  • Muscle Gain: Ditch the VLC dealio entirely. I understand the sex-hormone-binding-globulin argument, but if you desire to gain muscle mass with the most possible efficiency (i.e. quickly and with little excess energy distributed to fat tissue), a low carbohydrate intake is going to be counterproductive. That said, if you want a chance at the recomposition effect here and would like to try to lean out as you gain muscle mass, a very moderate caloric excess consisting of mostly carbohydrate is the way to go; that is, meet protein, fat, and carbohydrate goals for maintenance, and then add the excess cals from carbohydrate and trace protein.

Final notes: Concentrate dense carbs mostly post-workout, do not do anything that looks like HIIT in the fasted state, and I dig the supplement combination.

Best of luck on your goals, cheers,
-Ian

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:33 PM

What P/C/F ratios would one recommend for lean muscle gain? I'm assuming that by adding in carbs I need to back down on my fat consumption.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:51 PM

@foreveryoung you mind expanding that thought? maybe with a separate answer?

1407bd6152d9fdbc239250385159fea1

on June 14, 2012
at 06:08 PM

@foreveryoung: Quoting myself "though they're not impossible simultaneously, building muscle and leaning out are antagonistic goals." I'm not saying that it cannot be done, I'm merely stating that under no circumstances are the two synergistic endeavors. Growth and loss are best achieved when it's all systems go in one direction. Also, yes, your statement is fine in the sense that mathematically, body fat percentage decreases if one gains muscle faster than fat; however, I was referring more specifically to the increase of total muscle mass and the decrease of total fat mass--that is difficult

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:53 PM

@Potato Avenger thanks for the info, I think I'll add in carbs but only post-WOD

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 07:31 PM

No problem and I appreciate the compliment. I certainly don't know most of the science that a lot of the people on here do, but I know how my body works and, supposing I am not a freak of nature, I assume that roughly the same principles will work for others (assuming they're not freaks of nature either). Also, being in a catabolic state (calorie deficit OR a carb deficit) for an extended period is stressful and will do your physique or mentality no favors. You're young and should be able to walk to get ice cream with your girlfriend and go out with your friends without having to ...

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 08:28 PM

Your body is a miraculous and adaptable machine with built in redundancies for protection and survival. An orthorexic mentality tends to lose sight of that.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:48 PM

...don't count the carbs in broccoli, spinach, asparagus etc. They're mostly indigestible and don't go towards filling muscle glycogen. Count things like peppers, tomatoes, onions, starch, fruit, and other obvious carbs like sugar.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:51 PM

@foreveryoung you mind expanding that thought?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:09 PM

I disagree with the assumption that you can not build muscle and lean out at the same time. If you build muscle at a faster rate than you gain fat, you're body fat percentage will decrease, and you'll recomposition your physique. I also believe that you can lose fat and gain muscle at the shame time.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:52 PM

@Potato Avenger good info, I think I'll add in carbs but only post-WOD.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:33 PM

...you can essentially create mini bulking and mini cutting phases periodically throughout the day, as opposed to going a month long bulks and month long cuts.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:47 PM

Zone proportions are 40% carbs, 30% protein, and 30% fat. You could also do a protein emphasized zone and do 40% protein, 30% carbs, and 30% fat.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:46 PM

what do you mean by "zone" proportions? thanks

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:32 PM

As opposed to an on/off switch, I see (muscle) anabolism and (fat) catabolism as a sliding scale, where the degrees can be manipulated on moment to moment basis throughout the day with correct nutrition and exercise stimuli.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 07:00 PM

Thanks a lot man, I really appreciate the info. I've actually started looking for your responses all over PH because you just seem to know what your talking about. I'm going to start experimenting with additional carbs after my workouts, primarily sweet potatoes.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 08:12 PM

I don't want to give you the impression that I'm incredibly meticulous and regimented. I used to weigh and log everything for sure, but I stopped when I got to college. I follow a rough template now and don't weigh/measure. Once you build some positive momentum you'll realize you're body is a miraculous and adaptable machine with built in redundancies for protection and survival. Stay away from processed foods and any other foods you're sensitive to, but definitely don't exclude an entire macronutrient class. That sounds like a fad diet to me whether it be very low fat or very low carb

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 07:37 PM

worry about what your keto stix are going to read.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 07:38 PM

i totally agree, thanks again

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:42 PM

You could try doing zone proportions- many cross fitters seem to have success with that. Here is a good recipe blog about someone who is cross fit and has had great success with a strict paleo-zone approach. his blog http://stevepaleo.blogspot.com/. I go by meal macros, not daily macros. I choose the macros of my meals based on my activity level and the time of the day.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 14, 2012
at 08:13 PM

I don't want to give you the impression that I'm incredibly meticulous and regimented. I used to weigh and log everything for sure, but I stopped when I got to college. I follow a rough template now and don't weigh/measure. your body is a miraculous and adaptable machine with built in redundancies for protection and survival. Stay away from processed foods and any other foods you're sensitive to, but definitely don't exclude an entire macronutrient class. That sounds like a fad diet to me whether it be very low fat or very low carb

2
Cf416725f639ffd1bb90764792ce7b8a

(2799)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:19 PM

Drinking isn't unavoidable.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:34 PM

If I want my phone to keep ringing, it certainly is.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 11:32 PM

it's not like that, drinking just helps facilitate a good time!

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on June 14, 2012
at 10:02 PM

If people only like you because you keep drinking, do they really like you?

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:40 PM

If I want my phone to keep ringing, it is ;)

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on June 14, 2012
at 10:03 PM

If people only like you if you keep drinking, do they really like you?

0
5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on June 14, 2012
at 05:57 PM

Ditch low carb.

Ditch supplements.

Ditch everything you think you know about nutrition.

Follow your heart.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on June 14, 2012
at 06:14 PM

So THAT is how you got your handle--following your heart.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 14, 2012
at 06:43 PM

http://i.qkme.me/3owekp.jpg (NSFW)

Cccb899526fb5908f64176e0a74ed2d9

(2801)

on June 15, 2012
at 08:27 AM

My heart wants peanut butter sammiches and diet coke. Uh-oh.

De641ff2accb4975e1f42886b43009db

(2227)

on June 15, 2012
at 01:11 PM

yeah my heart is really feeling a DQ blizzard right now.

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