1

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Question about using a BCAA when intermittent fasting

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created February 10, 2011 at 8:15 PM

Hoping for a response from Stephen Aegis :) Thinking about trying the fasting (16hrs.) Curious though about a couple of things. I have been about 90% paleo for about a year and have noticed a 5lb. gain in the past 6 months. My diet and exercise have remained good which is why I will try the IF. Have you heard of this? Is my body just getting comfortable? Also...I generally work out early in the morning at crossfit. If I am coming home from a hard workout...should I take bcaa 10 g. or can I just fast until lunch? Is it worth the extra expense? Thanks for the help!

809b117f760db3aeb73567337581165f

(45)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Also...how much fruit a day?

55179539f4b916555b8ba813dd27cf5c

(138)

on February 14, 2011
at 07:44 AM

The Dr. Eades post that questions the validity of the GI can be found here: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/what-is-the-glycemic-index/

55179539f4b916555b8ba813dd27cf5c

(138)

on February 14, 2011
at 07:43 AM

Yeah some have even decided to do away with the GI altogether and simply count carbs. Dr. Michael Eades, coauthor of 'Protein Power', is an example. Other ways the GI goes awry are the fact that GI is calculated after eating the sample BY ITSELF. Very rarely do we eat measured portions of potatoes, broccoli, or cream ALONE, and it is known that combinations of foods have different GIs than their constituent parts alone.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 12, 2011
at 01:36 AM

Meat, Veggie garnish, and various tuber is my standard Feast, vary all 3 types and it's always a different meal. Non post workout standard meals are generally just large portions o meat little veggie and no tuber.

20b7feceb3fd132306f5fa87cb4cc9e3

(0)

on February 11, 2011
at 08:07 PM

Stephen - Can you give some examples of your post-workout meals? I'm having a hard time coming up with meals outside of meat and potatoes.

9d741bcbe702044635f2ce3078043054

(1435)

on February 11, 2011
at 03:01 PM

That's why the glycemic index is such a crock. Table sugar has a relatively low GI, because half the sugar is fructose, which does not raise blood sugar, but instead goes straight to the liver, gets compounded into triglycerides, and then stored or consumed as fat. A tuber, on the other hand, comprised entirely of complex carbs that will get broken down by the digestive system into glucose, will actually end up with a higher GI.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 11, 2011
at 12:08 PM

I understand that consensus, they ignore autophagy tho, BCAAs impede Autophagy... And I'm keen on my body clearing out the junk... I'm absolutely unconvinced that I'm losing muscle, the mirror the scale and the plates say the opposite.

B124653b19ee9dd438710a38954ed4a3

(1634)

on February 11, 2011
at 06:25 AM

Stephen-Aegis: The Google search probably won't help a lot since you answer almost every question asked. :P

B124653b19ee9dd438710a38954ed4a3

(1634)

on February 11, 2011
at 06:24 AM

Stephen-Aegis: The Google search probably won't help a lot since you answer almost **every** question asked.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 11, 2011
at 12:23 AM

honestly, ketosis isnt required unless youre impatient, fasted training with intermittent fasting and generally low carb paleo sheds pounds super fast, ketosis can be hard and uncomfortable and is only worth it if you want keto adapted sooner or seriously extreme fast weight loss.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 11, 2011
at 12:21 AM

as far as fish oil, during the healing process yes, as a long term supplement, if youre eating grassfed beef/wild food and avoiding omega 6, its not necessary, if youre eating conventional meat, its good. Look for a triglyceride form rather than the cheap ethyl ester form. or better get something like a quality cod liver oil that has other vitamins and health benefits above and beyond standard fish oil.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 11, 2011
at 12:19 AM

how much fruit is a loaded question: for weight loss, as little as possible. for ketosis, absolutely none. after youre done with weight loss, have a healthy metabolism, suffer no health issues of any sort and feel great, then as much as you are comfortable with without changing any of those factors.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 11, 2011
at 12:18 AM

see my answer here for how to get into ketosis: http://paleohacks.com/questions/22505/how-to-start-a-ketogenic-diet#axzz1DbYtWAFV

809b117f760db3aeb73567337581165f

(45)

on February 11, 2011
at 12:00 AM

Thank you Stephen. I also use Barlean lemon omega fish oil. Do you think this is okay to do? Thanks for the tip on BCAA. Also, how do you get to ketogenic state? I eat pretty strict paleo...is this what you mean. I have been trying to but back on fruit also. Thank you.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 10, 2011
at 11:22 PM

Hah! Neat search function

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5 Answers

4
4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

on February 10, 2011
at 11:42 PM

Alot of really smart people on here, absolutely dont limit yourself to only looking for my advice.

for BCAA's, I dont bother anymore. Whole Food, Hormones and our bodies own signaling have just steered me away from supplementation of virtually any source. This is one where perhaps for someone with a shattered metabolism, and non keto adaptation may benefit, but a healthy paleo eater that runs well on ketones is wasting their money.

For Post Exercise Nutrition, once healed, your body will tell you when it wants food, and once you really start to listen, will tell you what it wants. (be careful, because some foods create artificial cravings, i believe gut bacteria plays a huge role.)

My routine revolves around a Fasted Workout, no pre nutrition other than water, and then I am usually anything but hungry. Usually about 1.5-2 hrs later, it kicks in, and happens fast. So i tend to plan my meal and cooking to have food ready to devour around that time. Post heavy workouts for me are FEASTS. Full Paleo, but no macro restrictions. Alot of Protein Fat and Good Carbs all get consumed. My muscles are primed and Ive found that Ive gained and continue to gain muscle doing this.

I dont recommend extended Fasted Training or Intermittent Fasting if you are not at least somewhat Keto adapted already, or you will find it very uncomfortable, you can do a straight jump to Ketosis for a couple weeks, or go VLC Paleo for a while to get your body adapted, but there is a uncomfortable period while your body learns to use ketones effectively.

Intermittent Fasting after a Heavy workout happens all the time for me. If im out playing Ultimate Frisbee or another High Energy activity, its not unusual for me to not have food ready. I believe that the Bodybuilding nonsense about muscle wasting away is grossly inaccurate. Ive actually read a TON about Autophagy more recently, and am convinced that its a huge health benefit to have junk proteins destroyed and rebuilt as usable proteins. Im all about being a more efficient machine.

Now, as far as your weight gain, id look at what has changed or what you have been doing over the last 6 months. Are you sure its fat gain? could it be muscle? I use the mirror nowadays rather than the scale. Then start your way down the list.

  • Sleep? This is the #1 most missed piece for weight loss. I even rank it above nutrition now.

  • Sugar, specifically Fructose. Short of Sleep, this is the serious confounder of weight loss, and an almost assured way to hop those pounds on.

  • Alcohol.. beyond a moderate amount(1 glass of wine, a shot or 2) will stall or gain.

  • Overtraining. too much, is too much. Its different for each of us, I let energy level be my guide, if im not hopping ready to go, I dont.

  • Inflammation. So many things cause it, Omega 6 Ratio, allergenic foods etc... we have alot of questions discussing it. any increase will cause and stall weight and other health dangers.

So in short, Yes, fast till lunch. Eat quality when you do eat, and dont stress over it. And spend the money you would have spent on BCAAs on quality Grassfed Beef instead.

809b117f760db3aeb73567337581165f

(45)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Also...how much fruit a day?

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 11, 2011
at 12:18 AM

see my answer here for how to get into ketosis: http://paleohacks.com/questions/22505/how-to-start-a-ketogenic-diet#axzz1DbYtWAFV

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 11, 2011
at 12:21 AM

as far as fish oil, during the healing process yes, as a long term supplement, if youre eating grassfed beef/wild food and avoiding omega 6, its not necessary, if youre eating conventional meat, its good. Look for a triglyceride form rather than the cheap ethyl ester form. or better get something like a quality cod liver oil that has other vitamins and health benefits above and beyond standard fish oil.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 11, 2011
at 12:23 AM

honestly, ketosis isnt required unless youre impatient, fasted training with intermittent fasting and generally low carb paleo sheds pounds super fast, ketosis can be hard and uncomfortable and is only worth it if you want keto adapted sooner or seriously extreme fast weight loss.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 12, 2011
at 01:36 AM

Meat, Veggie garnish, and various tuber is my standard Feast, vary all 3 types and it's always a different meal. Non post workout standard meals are generally just large portions o meat little veggie and no tuber.

20b7feceb3fd132306f5fa87cb4cc9e3

(0)

on February 11, 2011
at 08:07 PM

Stephen - Can you give some examples of your post-workout meals? I'm having a hard time coming up with meals outside of meat and potatoes.

809b117f760db3aeb73567337581165f

(45)

on February 11, 2011
at 12:00 AM

Thank you Stephen. I also use Barlean lemon omega fish oil. Do you think this is okay to do? Thanks for the tip on BCAA. Also, how do you get to ketogenic state? I eat pretty strict paleo...is this what you mean. I have been trying to but back on fruit also. Thank you.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 11, 2011
at 12:19 AM

how much fruit is a loaded question: for weight loss, as little as possible. for ketosis, absolutely none. after youre done with weight loss, have a healthy metabolism, suffer no health issues of any sort and feel great, then as much as you are comfortable with without changing any of those factors.

B124653b19ee9dd438710a38954ed4a3

(1634)

on February 11, 2011
at 06:24 AM

Stephen-Aegis: The Google search probably won't help a lot since you answer almost **every** question asked.

B124653b19ee9dd438710a38954ed4a3

(1634)

on February 11, 2011
at 06:25 AM

Stephen-Aegis: The Google search probably won't help a lot since you answer almost every question asked. :P

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 10, 2011
at 11:22 PM

Hah! Neat search function

2
F17088b21ae0f36d78d9b8648d752f5c

on February 11, 2011
at 06:53 AM

You need to understand the role of BCAAs in fasted training.

BCAAs do not undergo metabolism in the liver and are metabolized by the muscle. They fool the muscle as to being in a fed state. The downstream anabolic effects of this is an anti-catabolic response.

Thus, taking 10gm BCAA before fasted training can help preserve lean mass. Taking 10gm every 2 hours thereafter will confer similar protection until one's fast is broken. 10gm of BCAA is not much calories and should not affect your fast.

Taking BCAAs is redundant if you have had a sizeable meal ~4hrs before training.

Interestingly, L-leucine causes GLUT4 receptors to translocate to the surface of the muscle cell independent of insulin and this can help lower blood sugar levels.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on February 11, 2011
at 12:08 PM

I understand that consensus, they ignore autophagy tho, BCAAs impede Autophagy... And I'm keen on my body clearing out the junk... I'm absolutely unconvinced that I'm losing muscle, the mirror the scale and the plates say the opposite.

1
55179539f4b916555b8ba813dd27cf5c

on February 11, 2011
at 09:47 AM

In response to Stephen's comment and the fruit issue...I completely agree with the fructose issue as a means of stalling weight loss or allowing gain. Fructose does not impact blood sugar but rather immediately reports to the liver to be converted to fat (at least that is my understanding...and it makes sense given that I gained 25kg as an adolescent drinking sodas with high fructose corn syrup and dropped them as soon as I stopped drinking them).

If you can't skip the fruit altogether, I found this table useful when choosing lower-fructose fruits http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritional_tools/fruits_table.html

Remember, table sugar (sucrose) is one part glucose and one part fructose.

55179539f4b916555b8ba813dd27cf5c

(138)

on February 14, 2011
at 07:44 AM

The Dr. Eades post that questions the validity of the GI can be found here: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/what-is-the-glycemic-index/

9d741bcbe702044635f2ce3078043054

(1435)

on February 11, 2011
at 03:01 PM

That's why the glycemic index is such a crock. Table sugar has a relatively low GI, because half the sugar is fructose, which does not raise blood sugar, but instead goes straight to the liver, gets compounded into triglycerides, and then stored or consumed as fat. A tuber, on the other hand, comprised entirely of complex carbs that will get broken down by the digestive system into glucose, will actually end up with a higher GI.

55179539f4b916555b8ba813dd27cf5c

(138)

on February 14, 2011
at 07:43 AM

Yeah some have even decided to do away with the GI altogether and simply count carbs. Dr. Michael Eades, coauthor of 'Protein Power', is an example. Other ways the GI goes awry are the fact that GI is calculated after eating the sample BY ITSELF. Very rarely do we eat measured portions of potatoes, broccoli, or cream ALONE, and it is known that combinations of foods have different GIs than their constituent parts alone.

0
B1d8ac02d7ff5b0de03936dddfacf9fa

on July 30, 2012
at 06:44 AM

No answer but a question, I am in Kandahar Afghanistan where we don't excatly get the nutrients we need, especially the meat part of it. Uuug discusting acutally. Veggies here aren't too bad just not enough. All are bagged frozen beggies I might add. Most things here are extremly fatty, so I am usually eating tuna everyday. I was thinking about the BCAA to take but definaltey didnt want to gain weight from it and wonder if for me being here, would be a good supplement until I am back stateside. I currently take CLA and Fish Oil. I work out doing CrossFit Monday through Thursday sometimes cardio during the day adn CF at 7pm at night. I dont do CF on Friday or Sundays, Sunday is my day off. I do eat Paleo at home but there is just no way to do it here and get everything you need. Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks Karla

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