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Has anyone combined Rosedale's approach with ZC and IF?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created November 12, 2012 at 5:10 PM

I'm fairly far on the IR spectrum (made it up to morbid obesity, FBG of 116, fatty liver, and hypertension), so resonate with Rosedale's approach of limiting protein. However, I've also not consumed plant matter for a few years, so take in very little glucose. Furthermore, IF seems conceptually appealing, and it sure does save time :-) If there was some way to combine all three, that would be great.

  1. Has anyone combined Rosedale with with ZC or VLC, as I'm curious if the protein recommendations are sufficient for those having to use GNG to create most of the body's glucose.

  2. Has anyone tried to combine IF with Rosedale? All I've come up with is: i. eat 3 meals with 30 or 35g of protein ii. next day, eat only breakfast with 30-35g of protein repeat That would provide a ~24 hour fast every other day, and about 65g of protein per day. Using the 0.7/kg lean mass, I should be getting a bit under 50g/day, so hopefully a 15g buffer is sufficient for GNG.

So far this plan is just on paper, since as mentioned, I'm worried about sufficient protein intake, and would appreciate feedback from anyone who has tried this combo (or even tried any two of them together).

(apologies if this question has been asked before; I could not find it but will gladly accept a pointer to such)

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on November 13, 2012
at 02:49 PM

It doesn't make sense to "waste" the protein making glucose, except in dire circumstances - ie. when you run out of fat.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on November 13, 2012
at 02:48 PM

You're welcome. That chart is based on an average amount from a number of obese subjects. I suspect that protein loss varies a bit among individuals. But 65 grams may be sufficient. Since a lot of body fat is burned (over 2000 calories), almost half of the additional glucose required comes from the fat. I suspect acetone from ketosis supplies the rest. This makes evolutionary sense, in that starving/ketosis should spare both glucose and protein. The 50 grams of protein lost per day are probably used to make other proteins. (enzymes, polypeptides, etc.).

8d6390b3b8991a9cb653a3d13c1cbf6a

(543)

on November 13, 2012
at 04:59 AM

Thanks for the references! The one on making glucose from fat was interesting, but I wish they'd nailed down the amount beyond establishing the theoretic possibility--but I guess that's asking a lot of a blog post. For fasting, it's hard to read, but looks to be somewhere in 40g to 50g per day. Given that's the protein lost on no food (so all glucose from GNG), I suspect 65g of protein is sufficient.

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A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on November 12, 2012
at 06:02 PM

People on a 30 day water fast lose about 50-70 grams of protein (from muscle) per day. So you should be good. I might err on the high side to avoid loss of muscle, but that's me. Most protein sparing modified fasts are at least 100g of protein per day for what that's worth.

http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.com/2010/10/amounts-of-water-carbohydrates-fat-and.html

With ketosis and the glucose available from fat, you don't need much gluconeogenesis, it turns out. The brain is the lion's share of glucose at 20% of total calories, but about half of that can come from ketones. Let's say you would burn around 2000 fat calories per day (dietary and body fat), then that fat will also supply about 60-80 calories of glucose from the glycerol backbone. And acetone is probably converted to pyruvate and then to glucose as well, so there may not be much need for protein for glucose. But you still need protein (amino acids) for all the other functions of life...

http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2012/01/we-really-can-make-glucose-from-fatty.html

8d6390b3b8991a9cb653a3d13c1cbf6a

(543)

on November 13, 2012
at 04:59 AM

Thanks for the references! The one on making glucose from fat was interesting, but I wish they'd nailed down the amount beyond establishing the theoretic possibility--but I guess that's asking a lot of a blog post. For fasting, it's hard to read, but looks to be somewhere in 40g to 50g per day. Given that's the protein lost on no food (so all glucose from GNG), I suspect 65g of protein is sufficient.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on November 13, 2012
at 02:48 PM

You're welcome. That chart is based on an average amount from a number of obese subjects. I suspect that protein loss varies a bit among individuals. But 65 grams may be sufficient. Since a lot of body fat is burned (over 2000 calories), almost half of the additional glucose required comes from the fat. I suspect acetone from ketosis supplies the rest. This makes evolutionary sense, in that starving/ketosis should spare both glucose and protein. The 50 grams of protein lost per day are probably used to make other proteins. (enzymes, polypeptides, etc.).

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on November 13, 2012
at 02:49 PM

It doesn't make sense to "waste" the protein making glucose, except in dire circumstances - ie. when you run out of fat.

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