15

votes

Inflammatory Neu5gc in red meats

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created July 04, 2011 at 6:15 PM

Hello everybody,

I recently read the work of Varki et al. concerning red meat and Neu5gc (http://health.ucsd.edu/news/2003/09_29_Varki.html). This acid is highly inflammatory and carcinogen and found in very high amounts in red meats. I think it is very interesting, especially as I'm currently changing my diet to a paleo diet. As you know, meat is one essential part of the paleo diet (I took this decision because I have an autommune desease and paleo is said to be highly anti-inflammatory). Does anyone know: Has there been furhter evidence on this topic so that a red meat abstinence is recommended? What do you think about this topic? Thanks in advance.

Best regards, Arthur

P.S. I'm german, so don't wonder about the grammar.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on December 28, 2012
at 08:38 AM

and endotoxemia in that order, which I have a recent post about in the thread "Inflammation from red meat" where I discuss the mechanisms and propose an easy solution. It's important, even though red meat doesn't raise pathological inflammation chronically, it is important to prevent it from doing so in the postprandial window for overall better health AND STRENGTH GAINS. That'll get peoples' attention.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on December 28, 2012
at 08:35 AM

Oh geez, I must have been drunk when I wrote this; so many typos. Well I stand by it and here's a study that could test it in humans. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17237312 Drastic increase in red meat, and somewhat of a decrease in CRP. Like I alluded to, you kind of have to give empirical evidence that red meat does in fact increase total systemic inflammation if you want to say that it is due to something in particular. There is one study that shows increased postprandial inflammation that goes down soon, but that has to do with fat and bile acids and intestinal permeability...

70c75942b975919dfbed8dddbd767b60

(289)

on December 21, 2012
at 06:26 PM

"oh noes ... zilions of creepy crawlies" :)

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 18, 2012
at 05:21 PM

I enjoyed your thoughtful answer, but some human types must have a built-in ability to handle red meat. I've always been a heavy beef eater and when my doctor tested for inflammation the result was "none" which she said was highly unusual. I was eating junk food at the time, with seed oils and everything, but also eating lots of beef. So, as always, maybe some of us but not all.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 29, 2011
at 07:59 PM

I doubt anyone will see this update buried in the comments here, but just in case: I quit the chicken-n-fish diet three weeks in. I "cheated" with some fatty beef brisket, and woke up like a droopy potted plant that finally got watered. It surprised me, since I didn't realize I'd kind of been dragging ass. My guess is I unintentionally went very low-cal and low-fat; there's only so much damn fish you can eat at a time, lol. So, molecule or not, red meat's back on the menu for me.

44348571d9bc70c02ac2975cc500f154

(5853)

on July 05, 2011
at 04:02 PM

I would rather eat fish, but cant source it everyday fresh. I dont eat canned fish, its for cats. Atleast tastewise. I am always wondered why paleo is so beef centric, fish has great fat profile and has some minerals that can be beneficial. Maybe meatcentric is due to fact that many here are north american? ;) I do eat beef almost almost everyday, but also fish nearly everday. I do not eat pork (yes not even bacon! ;) or chicken, they are poor quality here, even organic stuff has been fed with some sort of grains.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 05, 2011
at 01:22 PM

esque, the omega-6 in the chicken is a concern, so I'm only eating it a couple times a week. The rest of my meals I'm starting to feel like Opus the penguin, what with all the herring.

Ee7c5b7b9d4cd48d61dc259e6966a725

(90)

on July 05, 2011
at 09:50 AM

Really interesting. I guess some would argue that by eating too much chicken we put our omega 6 levels up too high. But that may well be balanced by the extra fish. Haven't read the links yet but will definitely be keeping an open mind about Neu5gc and interested to see more detail on the levels in various meats, red or not

34a367e60db77270bd7096dc04270fdc

(4171)

on July 04, 2011
at 11:29 PM

hmm that's interesting - maybe my husband is right, we need to eat chicken and broccoli for every meal to get abs! lol

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 04, 2011
at 10:06 PM

Jack and hcantrall, I will definitely report back with results. I can say that since last Tuesday (6/28/11), when I dropped red meat (lamb, beef and--sob--pork), I've lost 6-7 pounds. I feel like I'm eating plenty, mostly fish with some poultry, but I'm a little startled by the unexpected loss. This is the rate I lost at when I first went ZC after two years of VLC.

34a367e60db77270bd7096dc04270fdc

(4171)

on July 04, 2011
at 09:35 PM

Rose - please post your results when you're finished with your experiment. I'm curious about this as I eat a lot of beef and have an autoimmune disease and very high CRP.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on July 04, 2011
at 07:32 PM

This is what I was thinking, just stated much more eloquently. Context is everything.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 04, 2011
at 07:21 PM

Thanks for sharing - I'm hopeful that it is an anomaly that will benefit me - we'll see!

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 04, 2011
at 07:12 PM

Meredith, I saw your question about HDL and didn't have any insight, so passed on answering. My chol numbers are: TC 180, HDL 56.6, LDL 117, TG 32. Chol/HDL ratio: 3.2. I really hope you're able to figure it out -- my intuition is that it's a good thing, but that's just a gut check, not science.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 04, 2011
at 06:55 PM

Thanks for this information - I knew nothing about this. Rose, just for my info, could you tell me your cholesterol numbers = specifically HDL. Mine is wacky high and I want to request a CRP to rule out any infection/inflammatory issues. A little more info and ammo never hurts.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 04, 2011
at 06:44 PM

nice answer Rose. I didn't know about Neu5Gc. I just got tested 3 days ago but haven't seen the results yet. I'll check back here to see how things go with your experiment.

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3 Answers

10
Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on July 04, 2011
at 07:05 PM

It's funny how the meat-haters always mention that there is just so very much evidence that red meat kills you dead, and when you don't cherry-pick studies or if you control for confounding factors you find no association, and actually probably evidence for an inverse association if you control for a few confounding factors, so right away we should be very suspicious that this has anything to do with anything. "Oh noes it can provoke an inflammatory response" are the words of the supremely bias, it isn't enough to say that something provokes an inflammatory response because we are constantly beset by microorganism that must be killed by the immune system every second of the day. I just put my finger in my mouth and zillions of creepy crawlies went to do battle with my immune system, and yet here I am, not dead and with CRP of 0.1 mg/L (I think they rounded up).

The thing about the immune system is that when it has a proper supply of suppressor cells and molecules there is very little excessive inflammation of any kind. The only study I have read on Neu5gc that could have possibly demonstrated anything was with rats with the Neu5gc gene deletion. They were injected full of the molecule and also injected with the antibody, a very contrived immune situation that doesn't reflect how the immune system normally works. The rats died of cancer, which was meant to demonstrate that the hypothesis that Neu5gc molecules kill those without the gene dead. However then they did the same thing but added a COX-2 inhibitor (basically a potent ibuprofen) and there was very little immune response. That was what I would have hypothesized due to the bacteria reasoning. Even grain lectins which are supposed to be very inflammatory aren't necessarily going to cause any significant amount of inflammatory damage and dysregulation in the body via inflammation alone (but probably by all of their other trickery).

Rose up there also pointed to different susceptibilities in different people, although if the gut flora are happy and body has abundant materials to make anti-inflammatory eicosanoids and other regulators I don't think that it would be a problem even in the most susceptible people. If someone has a study looking at that, that would be sweet.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on July 04, 2011
at 07:32 PM

This is what I was thinking, just stated much more eloquently. Context is everything.

70c75942b975919dfbed8dddbd767b60

(289)

on December 21, 2012
at 06:26 PM

"oh noes ... zilions of creepy crawlies" :)

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on December 28, 2012
at 08:35 AM

Oh geez, I must have been drunk when I wrote this; so many typos. Well I stand by it and here's a study that could test it in humans. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17237312 Drastic increase in red meat, and somewhat of a decrease in CRP. Like I alluded to, you kind of have to give empirical evidence that red meat does in fact increase total systemic inflammation if you want to say that it is due to something in particular. There is one study that shows increased postprandial inflammation that goes down soon, but that has to do with fat and bile acids and intestinal permeability...

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on December 28, 2012
at 08:38 AM

and endotoxemia in that order, which I have a recent post about in the thread "Inflammation from red meat" where I discuss the mechanisms and propose an easy solution. It's important, even though red meat doesn't raise pathological inflammation chronically, it is important to prevent it from doing so in the postprandial window for overall better health AND STRENGTH GAINS. That'll get peoples' attention.

6
3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 04, 2011
at 06:28 PM

Excellent question, Arthur. I just got my CRP test results back, and have made some dietary changes in response. I've always dismissed the notion that red meat is inflammatory, mostly because that seems to me to be a kneejerk anti-saturated fat stance, but when I got the test results, I took a serious look at red meat and inflammation. That's when I found out about the Neu5Gc business.

So now I'm eating loads of fish and poultry, and am avoiding beef, lamb and pork, in a month-long experiment to see if I can reduce my CRP numbers (I'll be re-tested in a few weeks).

Here are some of the links that I've found helpful regarding Neu5Gc (hat tip to Melissa for getting an early jump on this topic):

http://huntgatherlove.com/content/neu5gc

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/2010/06/infant-milk-allergy-colic-and-sialic.html

Enlightening interview with a leading researcher into Neu5Gc here:

http://www.cancerresearch.org/RealStories/Scientists/Oliver-Pearce.html

And some interesting links here (not sure how helpful the actual blog content is, lol):

http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/reference-neu5ac-and-neu5gc/

I'll be very interested to read other people's thoughts on this issue. Thanks for asking this.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 04, 2011
at 06:44 PM

nice answer Rose. I didn't know about Neu5Gc. I just got tested 3 days ago but haven't seen the results yet. I'll check back here to see how things go with your experiment.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 04, 2011
at 10:06 PM

Jack and hcantrall, I will definitely report back with results. I can say that since last Tuesday (6/28/11), when I dropped red meat (lamb, beef and--sob--pork), I've lost 6-7 pounds. I feel like I'm eating plenty, mostly fish with some poultry, but I'm a little startled by the unexpected loss. This is the rate I lost at when I first went ZC after two years of VLC.

34a367e60db77270bd7096dc04270fdc

(4171)

on July 04, 2011
at 11:29 PM

hmm that's interesting - maybe my husband is right, we need to eat chicken and broccoli for every meal to get abs! lol

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 04, 2011
at 06:55 PM

Thanks for this information - I knew nothing about this. Rose, just for my info, could you tell me your cholesterol numbers = specifically HDL. Mine is wacky high and I want to request a CRP to rule out any infection/inflammatory issues. A little more info and ammo never hurts.

34a367e60db77270bd7096dc04270fdc

(4171)

on July 04, 2011
at 09:35 PM

Rose - please post your results when you're finished with your experiment. I'm curious about this as I eat a lot of beef and have an autoimmune disease and very high CRP.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 04, 2011
at 07:21 PM

Thanks for sharing - I'm hopeful that it is an anomaly that will benefit me - we'll see!

Ee7c5b7b9d4cd48d61dc259e6966a725

(90)

on July 05, 2011
at 09:50 AM

Really interesting. I guess some would argue that by eating too much chicken we put our omega 6 levels up too high. But that may well be balanced by the extra fish. Haven't read the links yet but will definitely be keeping an open mind about Neu5gc and interested to see more detail on the levels in various meats, red or not

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 05, 2011
at 01:22 PM

esque, the omega-6 in the chicken is a concern, so I'm only eating it a couple times a week. The rest of my meals I'm starting to feel like Opus the penguin, what with all the herring.

44348571d9bc70c02ac2975cc500f154

(5853)

on July 05, 2011
at 04:02 PM

I would rather eat fish, but cant source it everyday fresh. I dont eat canned fish, its for cats. Atleast tastewise. I am always wondered why paleo is so beef centric, fish has great fat profile and has some minerals that can be beneficial. Maybe meatcentric is due to fact that many here are north american? ;) I do eat beef almost almost everyday, but also fish nearly everday. I do not eat pork (yes not even bacon! ;) or chicken, they are poor quality here, even organic stuff has been fed with some sort of grains.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 04, 2011
at 07:12 PM

Meredith, I saw your question about HDL and didn't have any insight, so passed on answering. My chol numbers are: TC 180, HDL 56.6, LDL 117, TG 32. Chol/HDL ratio: 3.2. I really hope you're able to figure it out -- my intuition is that it's a good thing, but that's just a gut check, not science.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 29, 2011
at 07:59 PM

I doubt anyone will see this update buried in the comments here, but just in case: I quit the chicken-n-fish diet three weeks in. I "cheated" with some fatty beef brisket, and woke up like a droopy potted plant that finally got watered. It surprised me, since I didn't realize I'd kind of been dragging ass. My guess is I unintentionally went very low-cal and low-fat; there's only so much damn fish you can eat at a time, lol. So, molecule or not, red meat's back on the menu for me.

2
F31d10b54b31428e189d9b771bf7b1d1

on March 18, 2012
at 04:50 PM

In as much as it is very likely that early man (and woman) evolved by the sea in southwest Africa) for 140,000 years and ate mostly seashore food, I do not have a problem with this finding about Neu5Gc.

I would also point out that most of the baby making takes place long before inflammation becomes a problem, Neu5Gc and other inflammatory foods would not be much of a physical evolution problem. Inflammation would certainly negatively effect cultural evolution since it would deprive a culture of it's sources of elder wisdom.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 18, 2012
at 05:21 PM

I enjoyed your thoughtful answer, but some human types must have a built-in ability to handle red meat. I've always been a heavy beef eater and when my doctor tested for inflammation the result was "none" which she said was highly unusual. I was eating junk food at the time, with seed oils and everything, but also eating lots of beef. So, as always, maybe some of us but not all.

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