15

votes

Vaccinations! Lay it out there, what vaccines would you consider giving a newborn?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created July 21, 2010 at 1:52 PM

Are there any vaccinations you'd consider giving your new born? In the lens of a Paleo lifestyle/nutrition, but with all modern sanitation, health care, etc available, just what makes sense to get? Most vaccines seem to be without merit for most individuals, it's just "what we do" with newborns with no critical thought applied to each case.

Lay it out there if you have any input on DO or DON'T vaccinations.

2a00b9a42e4cb6e489a0e69d20714576

(3043)

on May 26, 2013
at 02:22 PM

Yes like autism. My cousin is proof positive.

94480caec9fbbaacc386d86a45efa720

(1007)

on September 01, 2012
at 01:11 PM

"The timing/quantity of vaccines that we expose small, developing immune systems to." ding ding ding! I am pro-vaccines with the caveat that if auto-immune disease runs in the family, and generally if the parents want more info on it, pediatricians should support families spreading the vaccines out gradually over a time period. Many nurses are qualified to give the jabs so that once a schedule is worked out, parents don't have to pay for a "doctor" visit every single time.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on August 31, 2012
at 09:41 PM

Different vaccines have different potential for "vaccine injury", pertussis is one of the safest ones, and with the resurgence of whooping cough that can actually end the life of a small child, I wouldn't think twice about getting a booster as an adult.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on August 31, 2012
at 09:37 PM

There are pockets in Seattle (the enclaves Melissa was talking about) where most don't vaccinate, most of those kids also live on lowfat vegetarian snack food, seems like the worst of both worlds. That is why we have a crazy whooping cough epidemic in our state. I stopped visiting the play areas in those neighborhoods until my son was fully vaccinated, and avoid them now being pregnant.

07ca188c8dac3a17f629dd87198d2098

(7970)

on February 28, 2012
at 08:56 PM

Like what, autism?

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on February 28, 2012
at 04:41 PM

Happy Now...that's a very prudent way to handle it. The problem is, some MDs aren't even willing to go that far (our first one wasn't). It's either you completely follow their schedule or nothing. Glad to see that you found one who will work with you. I'm certainly not in the "vaccinations are the work of the devil" camp but I believe firmly that too much too soon can be a problem with an immature nervous system. It's important that people understand that there is a middle road out there.

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on February 28, 2012
at 04:38 PM

But what if that "ounce of prevention" turns into a "ton" of health problems for YOUR child? It's just not always that simple

Medium avatar

(12379)

on September 01, 2011
at 04:10 PM

While I agree with Dragonfly's sentiments when it comes to the flu, I have to say that vitamin D will not do sh*t for polio. We have a good family friend who had polio as a child - I know what the damage from that looks like and I would NEVER wish that on anyone - especially my own beautiful little child. I weighed the risks for and against vaccinations and I chose to vaccinate my son.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on September 01, 2011
at 04:05 PM

Very well put Jack - this and many other issues that will come up for you in your new role as a paleo-papa are all about weighing risk (and potential risk) and assessing what the appropriate choice is for you and your family. I'm a firm believer in supporting the choice of a parent - regardless of the choice. So happy researching and stand firm in you choice once you make it becasue you made the right one for your family!

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 31, 2011
at 07:19 PM

there is absolutely no proof that the gut health/vit D/whatever would prevent these diseases. Children in foraging societies die all the time and that have good health. Wiping out diseases IS possible. Smallpox is extinct and polio is very close.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 06:58 PM

And some vaccine research looks like it is very well funded: http://www.jhsph.edu/vaccineinitiative/opportunities/funding/federal/index.html

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 06:55 PM

Many of the parents who have focused on good pre-natal nutrition, breastfeeding, etc and chosen not to vaccinate have noted that their children don't get sick or get over childhood illnesses faster. They are more resilient. Personally, I would prefer to promote a resilient population, not one that is dependent on pharmaceuticals to stay alive.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 06:52 PM

If you don't want these infections in the population at all, then you are essentially advocating mandatory vaccination world-wide, or a quarantine of the U.S. Regardless of what we do or don't do, babies die. Not everything is in our control. Unfortunately, focusing on world-wide vaccination instead of nutrition and attempting to wipe out all of these diseases may just set us up to be more susceptible to something even more deadly & harder to eradicate. Antibiotic resistant MRSA, anyone? And I'm sure you understand the concept of hormesis.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 31, 2011
at 06:21 PM

Personally, I don't want to be dependent on the gut health/nutrition/vit D of my child, which I will try to optimize, but if I fail, I don't want them to die. I don't want these infections in the population at all. BTW vaccine research is not exactly the most lucrative industry.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:49 PM

Fortunately, vaccines ARE optional and I would love to know the gut health, nutritional & Vitamin D status of the children in those "upper-class vaccine phobic enclaves." Correlation does not equal causation. Personally, I prefer a "biased" source that has no monetary incentive. Unfortunately, there will be no "unbiased" sources in a money-driven industry (scientific research) that is too often funded by pharmaceutical companies.

1bc18852894dad9d6dddfb3dfed49ab3

(341)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:29 PM

I agree with your assessment. I did research as well and talked to number of different doctors those who tried to sell me as many vaccines as they could and those who told me what they really think about it. The evidence I gathered pointed to none of the vaccines are generally needed. There is big argument that vaccines are effective in 3rd world countries. But remember, most people in the 3rd world do not have access to working sewers and have very poor hygiene in addition to deficient nutrition.

306aa57660d911781231f8090c2a5619

(3808)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:28 PM

No, the reason they give HepB at birth is because it can be transmitted from mother to baby during birth, vaccination shortly after birth can prevent infection of the baby, and it may not always be known if the mother is a carrier.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:24 PM

Parents are free to consider externalities if they wish, but their primary responsibility is to their own child. They should not be expected to sacrifice the health of family members to a "collective"

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 31, 2011
at 04:51 PM

Formula, for most babies, is optional. Vaccines are not optional in terms of preventing death and illness. I don't think it's wise to cite such a biased source to prove that herd immunity is a myth. If you look at the peer-reviewed research, you will find that it's not a myth. If you look at the recent cases of children dying or becoming ill in upper-class vaccine phobic enclaves, it's quite obvious it's not a myth.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:58 PM

And Melissa~ I find it interesting that you would support "highly processed" baby formula to be available only by prescription, yet appear to support mandatory vaccination with substances that are anything but paleo...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vaccine_ingredients

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:51 PM

Not everyone agrees that the concept of herd immunity should be applied to vaccines: http://www.vacfacts.info//herdimmunity.html

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:05 PM

Interesting to be down-voted! I am saddened (but not surprised) that the same folks who question assumptions about diet are so unwilling to question other assumptions. Here's a link for those willing to question: http://www.whale.to/v/phillips.html

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 31, 2011
at 02:39 PM

working in healthcare doesn't give someone the knowledge or right to make decisions that affect the herd immunity of all children.

78fcdeee6ac4ee7d071bbac56b9e359f

(1035)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:26 PM

Best answer, it's really not black or white. I wish I would hear more sentiments like this.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:11 PM

Some of the "mommies" I work with who choose not to vaccinate or to vaccinate selectively not only have a scientific education, but work in healthcare. Be careful not to make generalizations--you may be proved wrong.

76c885d7d27e6c83542ea493ca866dcd

(2178)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:07 PM

here's another great one -- http://www.naturalnews.com/033455_Institute_of_Medicine_vaccines.html

7d7523d1cf39d807d046b91cf5a4fc64

(20)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:05 PM

you say: "By not taking vaccines you increase the risk of a pandemic" how exactly? Vaccinated kids = no disease transmission? There is no such equation In fact, many vaccines are known to transmit diseases. In general, vaccines included in the current schedule do not block transmission, they prevent some of the most serious forms. http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/02/24/secondary-transmission-%EF%BB%BFthe-short-and-sweet-about-live-virus-vaccine-shedding/

7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on August 31, 2011
at 12:52 PM

+1 especially for the first paragraph. It's not just your own kids you're affecting when you forgo vaccines. It's ridiculously selfish. Sure, vaccination isn't "paleo". But neither is living in crowded communities where you and your kids can come into contact with (and spread pathogens to) tons of strangers every day.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 12:50 PM

I am glad to hear you say that Melissa. I respect your opinion on this and know you have done your research whether you have children or not. Thank you.

F6c1df7d5699661bd1f0d6d0a6c17fc6

on August 30, 2011
at 11:53 PM

Students of Ayn Rand should read up on externalities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 30, 2011
at 04:55 PM

"Simply put, it's a tough call, as there are convincing arguments from both sides. Anyone who flames others for being iffy on this issue is likely not considering the difficulty involved based on seemingly valid points from both camps." I couldn't agree more!

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on August 30, 2011
at 04:37 AM

It is worrying to me when choosing to not vaccinate is presented as the low risk choice. I'm not saying side effects aren't going to happen, but the choice isn't between possible side effect and nothing, it is between possible side effect and potential serious illness. I worked with my doctor to rejigger the vacc. schedule to push the live vaccines until the end just to make sure we were working with a more mature immune system. We opted out of Hep B for our baby because we just couldn't believe he'd be a junky or hooking up with sketchy ladies as a newborn.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on August 30, 2011
at 04:27 AM

Are you suggesting Ayn Rand is a role model for parenting decisions?

7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on August 30, 2011
at 04:04 AM

In my experience "a vague sense of unease" usually comes when someone doesn't have a good solid understanding of the science behind vaccination, or a basic understanding of immunity. And I believe that having a knee-jerk response of not trusting any medical science because of the failings of NUTRITIONAL science (which, yes, is extremely lacking, to put it charitably) isn't really rational.

E7a462d6e99fec7e8f0ddda11b34a770

(1638)

on July 23, 2010
at 11:37 PM

Also, being a bit older probably than a lot of you, I remember pre-vaccine days. I know people who got polio, and I had chicken pox, measles and mumps. Lemme tell ya, it ain't fun ... and you don't want to deal w/o 3 yr old w/a high fever who can't even swallow ice cream cause hurts too much! Not to mention that chicken pox can come back later in life as shingles and you REALLY don't want that one. Something to think about, anyway.

E7a462d6e99fec7e8f0ddda11b34a770

(1638)

on July 23, 2010
at 11:14 PM

I don't have children myself (so you can factor that into whether you want to listen to me or not), but my gut feeling is that I would handle it pretty much the way you are. I am firmly in the "most vaccinations are a good thing" camp, but I would wait until the child is no longer a "newborn" and I would definitely go for single vaccinations rather than the lump-em-all-in-there types you see most often. It just seems a better idea to expose a young immune system to one thing at a time. Who really knows what kind of unintended combined effect 2 or 3 sets of antibodies together really have?

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on July 23, 2010
at 01:11 AM

Sure. But I've seen little evidence to suggest that vaccinations are dangerous (any more than drinking raw milk or walking barefoot) and the logic behind their use appears sound. I'm heartened to see paleos responding with reasoned dives into evidence rather than anti-establishment dogma. I reject nutritional idiocy for the same reasons I generally accept vaccination - sound science - and anyone who decides that a vaccination is not for them after thinking critically is ok in my book. But "vaccine == not paleo == bad" doesn't work thanks to those piles of dead children they used to make :P

Fcaeaac15cf6568f2825b230731d5a7d

(529)

on July 23, 2010
at 12:39 AM

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I was saying that I was surprised by the response because vaccinations don't seem to fit the spirit of "paleo." But, yes, in addition to not being "paleo", there is a boatload of money to be made on vaccinations, and there are often scare campaigns launched in support of this vaccine or that one or vaccinations in general. So there are a lot of reasons to be skeptical.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on July 22, 2010
at 09:11 PM

... huh? So you're saying it's ok to knee-jerk reject vaccination because it's not "paleo"?

Fcaeaac15cf6568f2825b230731d5a7d

(529)

on July 22, 2010
at 06:07 PM

Blanket statements and piles of dead children. Where have I seen these methods of persuasion before?

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on July 22, 2010
at 05:36 PM

@Matthew, I agree with most of your post, except the part about not vaccinating being "very selfish." This is perjorative and, I believe, inaccurate. A parent's duty is first to the welfare of their child, as noted by Annika. This is normal self-interest, not "selfishness." Parents are merely subconsciously applying game theory to their decisions about vaccinations, in order to maximize the welfare of their child. Suggested reading: "The Virtue of Selfishness," by Ayn Rand.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on July 22, 2010
at 05:06 PM

Massive childhood mortality rates are paleo. What is or isn't paleo is an exercise in health hypothesis generation, what actually is healthy or not is determined by science. Vaccines work (and paleo childhood mortality is bad), so there's no reason to knee-jerk reject them.

0dc1d63c3d5975f5115f535c6a90c9dd

(2283)

on July 22, 2010
at 03:59 PM

I could not have said it better. Thank you so much! Breastfeeding is of the utmost importance, I think, vaxing or not. I breastfed my children for way past the recommended amount of time. When your children reach age 11-12 or so, you can ask their pediatrician to check their titers. Whatever disease they are not naturally immune to (often they will get these illnesses and they are so mild, you don't know it) you can choose t vax as you see fit. I also have not had an easy decision with this. My oldest was vaxed on schedule and he had very bad reactions, then we changed our mind on vaxes

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 03:12 PM

Annika, much thanks, now we are getting somewhere.... I need to reframe my question, once I've gathered and read more information. Your answer gives me much to look into deeper.

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 03:09 PM

That is more what it is, a vague sense of unease. And that makes it hard to have a blanket acceptance as many commenters offer! I've been plugging around http://www.nvic.org/ and other sites (both pro and con) and still can't wrap my head around each detail.

Fcaeaac15cf6568f2825b230731d5a7d

(529)

on July 22, 2010
at 02:50 PM

I'm a bit shocked by the paleo response here as well. If there is something that is definitely NOT paleo, it's vaccinations. I'm guessing that many are convinced that CW is often wrong because of stupidity or oversight, followed by greed and politics. I would argue that they have their causality backwards.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on July 22, 2010
at 02:30 PM

There's a massive distinction between the quality of science behind CW nutrition and that behind CW communicable disease prevention. If anything, it's encouraging to see that the paleo community is managing to avoid knee-jerk rejection of all CW and is evaluating each case on its merits.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on July 22, 2010
at 02:26 PM

Perhaps if you highlighted the potential issues with vaccination science that you see, we might be better able to respond to your concerns. Vaccines are not usually created spuriously or speculatively, and since there is very good empirical evidence as to whether or not they work, it's far easier to trust them than it is to trust, say, that one should take statins (far more speculative, far less evidence of efficacy). So, to move the discussion along, why not voice your specific concerns? Right now, all I'm seeing is a vague sense of unease, which is impossible to address satisfactorily.

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 02:01 PM

Thanks a bit more helpful response than "get all appropriate vaccines"!

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on July 22, 2010
at 07:46 AM

@Chris -- why do you think that way of Sears?

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on July 22, 2010
at 07:45 AM

Well-put, Tim. Feel very similarly.

0dc1d63c3d5975f5115f535c6a90c9dd

(2283)

on July 22, 2010
at 04:43 AM

Scaremongering goes on in both camps. That's why it is so important to research. The mothering.com and dr sears are given as places to look at. Dr sears is not a fool. He is a well known advocate for attachment parenting. The best places to look are pubmed and the CDC site.

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 01:03 AM

Thanks, Ian, good things to consider, there are certainly some mega-vaccines available, and it would make sense to go slow and simple, in any given vaccine chosen.

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 01:01 AM

Thanks, some useful info in there!

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 12:59 AM

I can't just go down that road so simply. By simply turning all CW advice (low fat, high carb, grain and seed oil based diet, near vegetarian ideal) on end I've had too many health gains to simply assume the powers that be know all and have my child's best interest at heart in the matters of vaccinations.

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 12:56 AM

Daniel Smith, that is the search, "all appropriate vaccines"! How many shots, at what age, which in particular, what combos, what frequency etc are all confusing at best. I'm surprised at the preponderance of "get all shots as directed" advice by a group of Paleo people(that is independent thinkers, regards to health). I'd think we all agree to avoid grains, vegetable oils and processed foods, yet many Paleos jump right on the CW bandwagon in regards to vaccinations? Color me skeptical.

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 12:48 AM

Ed, any available reference or numbers available to read up on the Amish you mention, or just local knowledge? Any confounding variables?

1a8020e101199de55c1b3b726f342321

(1973)

on July 21, 2010
at 10:45 PM

Ignore Dr. Sears, he's a fool.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on July 21, 2010
at 10:04 PM

@Daniel Smith -- who decides what vaccines are appropriate? And cui bono?

0dc1d63c3d5975f5115f535c6a90c9dd

(2283)

on July 21, 2010
at 05:48 PM

Matthew, Think what you want.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on July 21, 2010
at 05:09 PM

Wow I just had a look at mothering.com and haven't seen so much uninformed scaremongering nonsense about vaccines in quite a while.

2864dd8ad97ea5370dd6b23d49caddcb

(128)

on July 21, 2010
at 04:04 PM

Completely agree with this answer. Unfortunately we have diseases of civilization - vaccinations are an easy way to deal with most of them.

8e75344356f4a455185ee52da0b90bf2

on July 21, 2010
at 03:37 PM

I am absolutely 100% in favour of vaccinations. All 5 of my children had the standard sets recommended by our pediatrician. My children's health is paramount to me and these folks who refuse to vaccinate their kids scare me. We have finally wiped out many of the horrible diseases that used to KILL our children and now some of them are resurfacing due to the no vax people.

9ede249a740a4918c6d88c49846feb07

(20)

on July 21, 2010
at 03:26 PM

Daniel's advice is spot on. I live near 2 Amish communities about 20 miles apart. One group allows vaccinations the other shuns public health services. The first group has disease incidence close to the general population. The unvaccinated group has significantly higher morbidity and mortality. And not just among children. Adults become very ill from varicella and rubella and their elderly diefrom complications.

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24 Answers

28
D628a7339e8567f7246fc0cf652acacf

on July 21, 2010
at 02:30 PM

Most vaccines seem to be without merit for most individuals

Vaccines are for the benefit of everyone else in the population just as much as they are for the individual. By not taking vaccines you increase the risk of a pandemic.

Also, the logic, "I don't need to get the vaccine because everyone else has it," is flawed-- consider what happens if everyone thinks that way. (Apologies if you are not thinking this way, I cannot tell from your post)

Vaccines for things like HPV and Hep-A (IIRC) (which can be avoided with certain lifestyles) are debatable. But I think you have at least a decade before your child would be getting those.

Final note: the "link" between the MMR vaccine and autism has been completely and utterly discredited.

Please get all appropriate vaccines.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on July 21, 2010
at 10:04 PM

@Daniel Smith -- who decides what vaccines are appropriate? And cui bono?

Fcaeaac15cf6568f2825b230731d5a7d

(529)

on July 22, 2010
at 02:50 PM

I'm a bit shocked by the paleo response here as well. If there is something that is definitely NOT paleo, it's vaccinations. I'm guessing that many are convinced that CW is often wrong because of stupidity or oversight, followed by greed and politics. I would argue that they have their causality backwards.

Fcaeaac15cf6568f2825b230731d5a7d

(529)

on July 22, 2010
at 06:07 PM

Blanket statements and piles of dead children. Where have I seen these methods of persuasion before?

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on July 22, 2010
at 05:06 PM

Massive childhood mortality rates are paleo. What is or isn't paleo is an exercise in health hypothesis generation, what actually is healthy or not is determined by science. Vaccines work (and paleo childhood mortality is bad), so there's no reason to knee-jerk reject them.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on July 22, 2010
at 02:30 PM

There's a massive distinction between the quality of science behind CW nutrition and that behind CW communicable disease prevention. If anything, it's encouraging to see that the paleo community is managing to avoid knee-jerk rejection of all CW and is evaluating each case on its merits.

8e75344356f4a455185ee52da0b90bf2

on July 21, 2010
at 03:37 PM

I am absolutely 100% in favour of vaccinations. All 5 of my children had the standard sets recommended by our pediatrician. My children's health is paramount to me and these folks who refuse to vaccinate their kids scare me. We have finally wiped out many of the horrible diseases that used to KILL our children and now some of them are resurfacing due to the no vax people.

2864dd8ad97ea5370dd6b23d49caddcb

(128)

on July 21, 2010
at 04:04 PM

Completely agree with this answer. Unfortunately we have diseases of civilization - vaccinations are an easy way to deal with most of them.

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 12:48 AM

Ed, any available reference or numbers available to read up on the Amish you mention, or just local knowledge? Any confounding variables?

Fcaeaac15cf6568f2825b230731d5a7d

(529)

on July 23, 2010
at 12:39 AM

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I was saying that I was surprised by the response because vaccinations don't seem to fit the spirit of "paleo." But, yes, in addition to not being "paleo", there is a boatload of money to be made on vaccinations, and there are often scare campaigns launched in support of this vaccine or that one or vaccinations in general. So there are a lot of reasons to be skeptical.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on July 22, 2010
at 09:11 PM

... huh? So you're saying it's ok to knee-jerk reject vaccination because it's not "paleo"?

9ede249a740a4918c6d88c49846feb07

(20)

on July 21, 2010
at 03:26 PM

Daniel's advice is spot on. I live near 2 Amish communities about 20 miles apart. One group allows vaccinations the other shuns public health services. The first group has disease incidence close to the general population. The unvaccinated group has significantly higher morbidity and mortality. And not just among children. Adults become very ill from varicella and rubella and their elderly diefrom complications.

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 12:56 AM

Daniel Smith, that is the search, "all appropriate vaccines"! How many shots, at what age, which in particular, what combos, what frequency etc are all confusing at best. I'm surprised at the preponderance of "get all shots as directed" advice by a group of Paleo people(that is independent thinkers, regards to health). I'd think we all agree to avoid grains, vegetable oils and processed foods, yet many Paleos jump right on the CW bandwagon in regards to vaccinations? Color me skeptical.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on July 23, 2010
at 01:11 AM

Sure. But I've seen little evidence to suggest that vaccinations are dangerous (any more than drinking raw milk or walking barefoot) and the logic behind their use appears sound. I'm heartened to see paleos responding with reasoned dives into evidence rather than anti-establishment dogma. I reject nutritional idiocy for the same reasons I generally accept vaccination - sound science - and anyone who decides that a vaccination is not for them after thinking critically is ok in my book. But "vaccine == not paleo == bad" doesn't work thanks to those piles of dead children they used to make :P

7d7523d1cf39d807d046b91cf5a4fc64

(20)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:05 PM

you say: "By not taking vaccines you increase the risk of a pandemic" how exactly? Vaccinated kids = no disease transmission? There is no such equation In fact, many vaccines are known to transmit diseases. In general, vaccines included in the current schedule do not block transmission, they prevent some of the most serious forms. http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/02/24/secondary-transmission-%EF%BB%BFthe-short-and-sweet-about-live-virus-vaccine-shedding/

19
9dce97b4c4762a78a577a11585eef8f2

(1239)

on July 21, 2010
at 05:17 PM

Ooh, such a hot button topic!

I have very mixed feelings about vaccines, especially when it concerns the very young. In theory, I think that they are an excellent means to build immune resistance to a wide variety of illnesses; it reminds me of homeopathy, taking a small enough dose of something to elicit a physiological response without contracting the disease itself. I do, however, have serious concerns on two fronts:

  1. The timing/quantity of vaccines that we expose small, developing immune systems to.

  2. The adjuvants/additives that are in the vaccines.

For these reasons my husband and I decided, when our first son was born, to vaccinate ourselves and delay his vaccinations until he was past the newborn period, and even then to only give one vaccine at a time, and to consciously select which ones to give. For an infant, our main concerns were pertussis (which breaks out fairly frequently in the Bay Area where we live), Hib and pneumococcal.

Unfortunately, my son (who is admittedly very sensitive and has multiple food allergies) has now had a total of two different vaccinations resulting in one "strong" reaction and one "severe" reaction (developed non-viral encephalitis after his first vaccine at 4 months; fortunately he recovered without brain damage). This has left me even more wary than before, and we have, thus far, delayed vaccinating our second son, who just turned one. He will, most likely, receive selective immunizations, however we have decided not to vaccinate our firstborn anymore unless new information comes to light, or we find ourselves travelling to an area with considerable risk.

In the end, my advise is to follow your gut, but listen to your brain, too. Do your research, ask questions. Vaccines are likely responsible for much good in our society, but they can cause harm too, and what is good for most people might not be what is good for you and your children.

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 01:01 AM

Thanks, some useful info in there!

E7a462d6e99fec7e8f0ddda11b34a770

(1638)

on July 23, 2010
at 11:14 PM

I don't have children myself (so you can factor that into whether you want to listen to me or not), but my gut feeling is that I would handle it pretty much the way you are. I am firmly in the "most vaccinations are a good thing" camp, but I would wait until the child is no longer a "newborn" and I would definitely go for single vaccinations rather than the lump-em-all-in-there types you see most often. It just seems a better idea to expose a young immune system to one thing at a time. Who really knows what kind of unintended combined effect 2 or 3 sets of antibodies together really have?

E7a462d6e99fec7e8f0ddda11b34a770

(1638)

on July 23, 2010
at 11:37 PM

Also, being a bit older probably than a lot of you, I remember pre-vaccine days. I know people who got polio, and I had chicken pox, measles and mumps. Lemme tell ya, it ain't fun ... and you don't want to deal w/o 3 yr old w/a high fever who can't even swallow ice cream cause hurts too much! Not to mention that chicken pox can come back later in life as shingles and you REALLY don't want that one. Something to think about, anyway.

94480caec9fbbaacc386d86a45efa720

(1007)

on September 01, 2012
at 01:11 PM

"The timing/quantity of vaccines that we expose small, developing immune systems to." ding ding ding! I am pro-vaccines with the caveat that if auto-immune disease runs in the family, and generally if the parents want more info on it, pediatricians should support families spreading the vaccines out gradually over a time period. Many nurses are qualified to give the jabs so that once a schedule is worked out, parents don't have to pay for a "doctor" visit every single time.

14
Bcb2f5436d11467e89123680c046b858

(1356)

on July 22, 2010
at 02:20 PM

Vaccination is a tough issue and has been a difficult one for me to figure out. My kids are 13 and 15, so when they were infants, the situation was quite different. I will give you my thoughts on a few individual vaccines.

Polio: IIRC, there has not been a case of wild polio in the western hemisphere since the 1970s (unless there have been some since the late 1990s when I did my research). At the time my kids were born, the only option was the live oral polio vaccine, which caused a handful of polio cases each year, both in infants and in others exposed the shedding of the live vaccine in the infants' poop. To me, this was a no-brainer: if there was a higher chance of my baby contracting polio if he got the vaccine, why the hell would I get it? The injectable (killed) vaccine is much safer, but I don't know the details on it. If you are planning international travel, that is a whole other situation. If you are in frequent contact with immigrant communities or with other people who travel to countries where polio is an issue, that would place Fritz at higher risk also.

Chickenpox: it is unknown how long the chickenpox vaccine lasts. My concern is that we are putting of cases of chickenpox during childhood, when the disease is usually mild.The vaccine wears off, resulting in more adults contracting chickenpox. Chickenpox is much more serious in adults.

Pertussis: the acellular pertussis vaccine was not available when my kids were born, and the whole-cell vaccine was associated with a high rate of serious and sometimes permanent side effects. Unfortunately, pertussis is endemic in many parts of the US, and can be very serious, resulting in weeks or months of illness, hospitalization, and, occasionally, death. The acellular vaccine is much safer, but again, I can't comment on the specifics.

MMR: measles and mumps used to be common childhood infections that everyone got. Yes, there can be complications, but they are not common. The big risk held up for mumps is male infertility, but the reality is that mumps affects the testes very rarely, and almost always affects only one, so infertility is vanishingly rare. Rubella is extremely rare now, but the consequences if it is contracted during pregnancy are devastating.

Hepatitis B is a blood-borne pathogen; you contract it the same way you contract HIV. Unless you think your infant will be having unprotected sex or sharing needles, it is unnecessary to consider this vaccine for at least a decade. They only give it at birth because it's hard to get teenagers in to the office to get vaccines.

I used data from the Institute of Medicine (part of NIH) when I made my decisions. They rated the risks of each vaccine; most of them were unknown, because the vaccines generally do not go through the same rigorous trials that most medications go through. After weighing the risk-benefit ratio of each vaccine, I chose to delay almost everything. The decision was difficult and I never felt easy with it. My decisions might be very different today, however. My kids have now received most of their vaccines - after their nervous systems were matured.

In terms of herd immunity, my feeling is this: when I chose to become a parent, my primary responsibility was to my child. To put one's own child at risk is to be an irresponsible parent. People who choose not to breastfeed are putting their babies at much higher risk than those who choose not to vaccinate, but they are not being excoriated for it (no offense meant to those who were unable to breastfeed).

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 03:12 PM

Annika, much thanks, now we are getting somewhere.... I need to reframe my question, once I've gathered and read more information. Your answer gives me much to look into deeper.

0dc1d63c3d5975f5115f535c6a90c9dd

(2283)

on July 22, 2010
at 03:59 PM

I could not have said it better. Thank you so much! Breastfeeding is of the utmost importance, I think, vaxing or not. I breastfed my children for way past the recommended amount of time. When your children reach age 11-12 or so, you can ask their pediatrician to check their titers. Whatever disease they are not naturally immune to (often they will get these illnesses and they are so mild, you don't know it) you can choose t vax as you see fit. I also have not had an easy decision with this. My oldest was vaxed on schedule and he had very bad reactions, then we changed our mind on vaxes

306aa57660d911781231f8090c2a5619

(3808)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:28 PM

No, the reason they give HepB at birth is because it can be transmitted from mother to baby during birth, vaccination shortly after birth can prevent infection of the baby, and it may not always be known if the mother is a carrier.

11
Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on August 30, 2011
at 04:01 PM

Hmm. Some interesting responses from folk here. Let me lay down how I feel about Vaccines right off the bat! >>> I don't know. I am not really sure yet. And I am frustrated by the whole deal.

For me personally, I am at a crossroads about a specific vaccine that I have been reluctant to go forward with. It's the whooping cough (Pertussis) vaccine. My sister in law just had a baby last week. She was born 3 weeks premature at a weight of 5 lbs 0 ounces and narrowly evaded the NICU. I am not allowed to get to hold this little precious girl or even get close to her until I've had my vaccine. So I am almost being forced to get it, else face the inconvenience and "miss-out" factor by choosing not to get it. Then again, I have Paleo babby on the way myself, and the cycle of ponderance begins again.

Vaccines is a HOT topic and there are people foaming at the mouth on both sides of the fence trying to assert their position. Many of those that are squarely and firmly in the YES camp believe that the people who are iffy on it or downright against it are being selfish and/or wreckless. Many of those that are squarely and firmly in the NO camp believe that the people who are totally for it are born of Satan, out to disease the world and crush humanity forever.

It's quite the tug of war. Anytime I see very strong opposition on stuff like this, I know immediately that there will be no easy answer because there is truth on both sides.

The tough part then, is understanding what's really true and what is fear mongering.... understanding what is bogus information to support their side, and what is valuable truth put forth or exposed.

From the NO camp, here are a couple of highly reviewed books:

Saying NO to Vaccines

Saying NO to Vaccines on Amazon.com

Vaccine Epidemic Review

Vaccine Epidemic on Amazon.com

Also, here is a site that seems to fight back against the YES camp and their assertions that the autism link was bogus. In other words, they are saying the folks who 'disproved' the autism link were doing what the medical industry does all the time >> Lying and deceiving.

http://vaccinesafetyfirst.com/Home.html

http://vaccinesafetyfirst.com/Experts.html

From the YES camp, here is the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP)

http://www.aap.org/immunization/families/safety.html

Also, here's some other resources that seem to be somewhat balanced on their stance from what I can tell, offering supporting/opposing information from both sides.

http://www.immunize.org/safety/

Simply put, it's a tough call, as there are convincing arguments from both sides. Anyone who flames others for being iffy on this issue is likely not considering the difficulty involved based on seemingly valid points from both camps.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 30, 2011
at 04:55 PM

"Simply put, it's a tough call, as there are convincing arguments from both sides. Anyone who flames others for being iffy on this issue is likely not considering the difficulty involved based on seemingly valid points from both camps." I couldn't agree more!

78fcdeee6ac4ee7d071bbac56b9e359f

(1035)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:26 PM

Best answer, it's really not black or white. I wish I would hear more sentiments like this.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on September 01, 2011
at 04:05 PM

Very well put Jack - this and many other issues that will come up for you in your new role as a paleo-papa are all about weighing risk (and potential risk) and assessing what the appropriate choice is for you and your family. I'm a firm believer in supporting the choice of a parent - regardless of the choice. So happy researching and stand firm in you choice once you make it becasue you made the right one for your family!

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on August 31, 2012
at 09:41 PM

Different vaccines have different potential for "vaccine injury", pertussis is one of the safest ones, and with the resurgence of whooping cough that can actually end the life of a small child, I wouldn't think twice about getting a booster as an adult.

11
0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on July 22, 2010
at 01:02 PM

This is a hard question to answer, the following are just some of my random thoughts.

Fisrtly there are no perfect vaccines. It is almost impossible to produce a vaccine that gives 100% protection with zero risk. The risk or a vaccine is always balanced against the risk of the disease. However the vaccines around now are much safer than examples from the past and carry extremly low risks.

Many vaccines seem unnessesary now only because almost everyone in the population is vaccinated. Most serious childhood diseases are largely forgotten in Europe and the USA but have not gone away and are only a flight away. If vaccination rates drop below a critical level, usually about 80%, these epidemic diseases are soon back. Measles still kill hundreds of thousands of unvaccinated children worldwide each year. Not vaccinating and relying on the protection of everyone else vaccinating is very selfish. There are children and adults who cannot be vaccinated for various reasons and they rely on the protection from everyone else who is.

The idea vaccinating babies or multiple vaccinations is harmful: Vaccines produce a very small immune response compared to the real infection. Babies are exposed to hundreds of bacteria and viruses from imediatly after birth, they are everywhere and were far more so in our evolutionary history. Response of the immune system to mutiple potential threats at once at a very young age is completely natural, it is what the immune system is designed to do. A babies immune system is identifying, responding to and fighting off many threats everyday. Many vaccines are given very early because it is ofen the young children that are most at risk of dying from viral infections like measles.

Most childhood vaccines given now target viral infections. These are viral diseases spread from person to person and for which there is little effective treatment. These diseases have little to do with good sanitation, clean water or good diet. While the rational for vaccinating against childhood diseases is obvious, some others like Hepititis B are less so. Population wide vaccination often involves a pragmatic approch. Most people will simply never come back for vaccinations as a teenager or adult. Also the people who will most need it are probably the least likely to get it as an adult.

People who work in public health to prevent infectious diseases are usually good people who want to make the world a better place and usually don't get paid a great deal for doing it. I would not compare it to nutritional science. With a disease like measles you know if what you do works, either people get measles or they don't. It's not like trying to work out how diet affects heart disease. As an aside, the guy who developed the Hepititis B vaccine worked at my University http://www.research-innovation.ed.ac.uk/success/hepatitisB.asp he gave away all the royalties he would have made from the vaccine.

And finally a song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1xw0Ob5bqs&feature=player_embedded


The CDC has alot of very good information on vaccines such as the reccommeded child vaccination scedule.

There is information on each vaccine preventable disease.

I think there are reasonable arguments that these vaccines given to children. Some are to prevent common dangerous diseases. Some to prevent diseases re-entering the USA like polio. Others to reduce the longer-term risks the child like hepatitis. I think the common childhood diseases are the most important to vaccinate very young children against.

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 02:01 PM

Thanks a bit more helpful response than "get all appropriate vaccines"!

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on July 22, 2010
at 05:36 PM

@Matthew, I agree with most of your post, except the part about not vaccinating being "very selfish." This is perjorative and, I believe, inaccurate. A parent's duty is first to the welfare of their child, as noted by Annika. This is normal self-interest, not "selfishness." Parents are merely subconsciously applying game theory to their decisions about vaccinations, in order to maximize the welfare of their child. Suggested reading: "The Virtue of Selfishness," by Ayn Rand.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on August 30, 2011
at 04:27 AM

Are you suggesting Ayn Rand is a role model for parenting decisions?

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11478)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:24 PM

Parents are free to consider externalities if they wish, but their primary responsibility is to their own child. They should not be expected to sacrifice the health of family members to a "collective"

F6c1df7d5699661bd1f0d6d0a6c17fc6

on August 30, 2011
at 11:53 PM

Students of Ayn Rand should read up on externalities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality

9
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 31, 2011
at 12:41 PM

It completely scares me that the herd immunity of US children is being affected by mommies with no scientific education who think it sounds like a bad idea to expose developing immune systems to vaccines. It really challenges my normally libertarian beliefs.

You know that argument against paleo that "people didn't live that long?" Well we typically dismiss it by saying "Well, if you don't count infant mortality...then people lived quite a long time." But for the mothers of the Paleolithic, infant mortality did count. And it continues to count in many foraging societies. If you want to reenact this part of paleo, go ahead, but you'll do it without my support.

I would recommend Seth Mnookin's book The Panic Virus, which explores the origin of these memes.

If you have a lot time on your hands, this free book is worth reading. Don't accept sources that are just random websites. There are a lot of quacks out there.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 06:52 PM

If you don't want these infections in the population at all, then you are essentially advocating mandatory vaccination world-wide, or a quarantine of the U.S. Regardless of what we do or don't do, babies die. Not everything is in our control. Unfortunately, focusing on world-wide vaccination instead of nutrition and attempting to wipe out all of these diseases may just set us up to be more susceptible to something even more deadly & harder to eradicate. Antibiotic resistant MRSA, anyone? And I'm sure you understand the concept of hormesis.

7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on August 31, 2011
at 12:52 PM

+1 especially for the first paragraph. It's not just your own kids you're affecting when you forgo vaccines. It's ridiculously selfish. Sure, vaccination isn't "paleo". But neither is living in crowded communities where you and your kids can come into contact with (and spread pathogens to) tons of strangers every day.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:58 PM

And Melissa~ I find it interesting that you would support "highly processed" baby formula to be available only by prescription, yet appear to support mandatory vaccination with substances that are anything but paleo...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vaccine_ingredients

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 31, 2011
at 02:39 PM

working in healthcare doesn't give someone the knowledge or right to make decisions that affect the herd immunity of all children.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on August 31, 2011
at 12:50 PM

I am glad to hear you say that Melissa. I respect your opinion on this and know you have done your research whether you have children or not. Thank you.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 06:58 PM

And some vaccine research looks like it is very well funded: http://www.jhsph.edu/vaccineinitiative/opportunities/funding/federal/index.html

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:49 PM

Fortunately, vaccines ARE optional and I would love to know the gut health, nutritional & Vitamin D status of the children in those "upper-class vaccine phobic enclaves." Correlation does not equal causation. Personally, I prefer a "biased" source that has no monetary incentive. Unfortunately, there will be no "unbiased" sources in a money-driven industry (scientific research) that is too often funded by pharmaceutical companies.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 06:55 PM

Many of the parents who have focused on good pre-natal nutrition, breastfeeding, etc and chosen not to vaccinate have noted that their children don't get sick or get over childhood illnesses faster. They are more resilient. Personally, I would prefer to promote a resilient population, not one that is dependent on pharmaceuticals to stay alive.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 31, 2011
at 04:51 PM

Formula, for most babies, is optional. Vaccines are not optional in terms of preventing death and illness. I don't think it's wise to cite such a biased source to prove that herd immunity is a myth. If you look at the peer-reviewed research, you will find that it's not a myth. If you look at the recent cases of children dying or becoming ill in upper-class vaccine phobic enclaves, it's quite obvious it's not a myth.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 31, 2011
at 06:21 PM

Personally, I don't want to be dependent on the gut health/nutrition/vit D of my child, which I will try to optimize, but if I fail, I don't want them to die. I don't want these infections in the population at all. BTW vaccine research is not exactly the most lucrative industry.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:11 PM

Some of the "mommies" I work with who choose not to vaccinate or to vaccinate selectively not only have a scientific education, but work in healthcare. Be careful not to make generalizations--you may be proved wrong.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:51 PM

Not everyone agrees that the concept of herd immunity should be applied to vaccines: http://www.vacfacts.info//herdimmunity.html

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 31, 2011
at 07:19 PM

there is absolutely no proof that the gut health/vit D/whatever would prevent these diseases. Children in foraging societies die all the time and that have good health. Wiping out diseases IS possible. Smallpox is extinct and polio is very close.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on September 01, 2011
at 04:10 PM

While I agree with Dragonfly's sentiments when it comes to the flu, I have to say that vitamin D will not do sh*t for polio. We have a good family friend who had polio as a child - I know what the damage from that looks like and I would NEVER wish that on anyone - especially my own beautiful little child. I weighed the risks for and against vaccinations and I chose to vaccinate my son.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on August 31, 2012
at 09:37 PM

There are pockets in Seattle (the enclaves Melissa was talking about) where most don't vaccinate, most of those kids also live on lowfat vegetarian snack food, seems like the worst of both worlds. That is why we have a crazy whooping cough epidemic in our state. I stopped visiting the play areas in those neighborhoods until my son was fully vaccinated, and avoid them now being pregnant.

6
51b472fa449ab0e5433f27dcd799fedd

(1091)

on August 30, 2011
at 04:14 AM

As much as I???m appreciating certain parts of Paleo, I tend to regard anti-vaccination sentiments as highly dangerous, though I???ll be the first to admit if I???m proven wrong. I think Penn & Teller put it best (note: language NSFW or for prudes):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

6
A68f24168bc0de414a038037e287b581

on July 22, 2010
at 04:17 AM

science before "gut" and "ancestors". We, as modern societies, have managed to drastically lower the child mortality and almost completely rid of many horrible diseases. I find that some parents act selfishly not doing vaccines, as they think their child is safe. the thing is, the system works only if everyone participates. very rarely there is a severe reaction to the shots. a day of flu-like symptoms is worth the benefits.

to me the question is not "if" but rather "how" - to choose the best way to get vaccinated (multiple or separately, etc.).

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on August 30, 2011
at 04:37 AM

It is worrying to me when choosing to not vaccinate is presented as the low risk choice. I'm not saying side effects aren't going to happen, but the choice isn't between possible side effect and nothing, it is between possible side effect and potential serious illness. I worked with my doctor to rejigger the vacc. schedule to push the live vaccines until the end just to make sure we were working with a more mature immune system. We opted out of Hep B for our baby because we just couldn't believe he'd be a junky or hooking up with sketchy ladies as a newborn.

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on February 28, 2012
at 04:41 PM

Happy Now...that's a very prudent way to handle it. The problem is, some MDs aren't even willing to go that far (our first one wasn't). It's either you completely follow their schedule or nothing. Glad to see that you found one who will work with you. I'm certainly not in the "vaccinations are the work of the devil" camp but I believe firmly that too much too soon can be a problem with an immature nervous system. It's important that people understand that there is a middle road out there.

5
Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 30, 2011
at 04:53 PM

My answer is a resounding NO. Not for a newborn. Except in the cases I will share below.

If I personally did any vaccinating, it would be delayed & selective, on a case by case basis, depending on where I lived, how much travel I planned with babe, my nutritional & health status, etc.

I've been researching this issue for the last 4 years, because I work with families from pre-conception through post-partum.

I've know families who range the continuum from no vaxing at all to the full set of recommended vaccinations.

For me, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of making sure mom's nutrition is optimal pre-conception through all of the breastfeeding relationship so that her immune system/gut health is in an ideal state to convey strong immunity and good gut health to her baby.

However, if mom's diet is less than optimal or she is Vitamin D deficient or she has experienced antibiotics during pregnancy or she has had a cesarean or a birth with a fair amount of interventions, or the breastfeeding relationship is interrupted, then I would consider vaccination --again, on a vaccine-by-vaccine basis.

I do not advise my clients on vaccinations, but I do provide resources (if asked) that hopefully will give them enough information (pro & con) to make the decision that is right for their family.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 31, 2011
at 03:05 PM

Interesting to be down-voted! I am saddened (but not surprised) that the same folks who question assumptions about diet are so unwilling to question other assumptions. Here's a link for those willing to question: http://www.whale.to/v/phillips.html

1bc18852894dad9d6dddfb3dfed49ab3

(341)

on August 31, 2011
at 05:29 PM

I agree with your assessment. I did research as well and talked to number of different doctors those who tried to sell me as many vaccines as they could and those who told me what they really think about it. The evidence I gathered pointed to none of the vaccines are generally needed. There is big argument that vaccines are effective in 3rd world countries. But remember, most people in the 3rd world do not have access to working sewers and have very poor hygiene in addition to deficient nutrition.

5
0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

on July 22, 2010
at 09:12 AM

I would simply state this as a comment to my original question, but it does not fit within the character limit:

Again, the science would tell us to eat low fat, high veggie oil, high grain, high carb and avoid animal products entirely. Also to eat more, move less, etc. And statins, would would be added to the water as well (like fluoride) if conventional science had it's druthers. There seem to be potential issues to vaccination science as well. This is the same science that brings us osteoporosis meds, yet never discusses the elimination of neolithic foods to potentially render osteoporosis a mute point.

How much of modern life expectancy gains is simply in hygiene and improved water supplies and sewage disposal? What are the unintended consequences of vaccination?

Not to single out any comment, but I am surprised that any vaccination doubt/suspicion is brushed aside with statements to simply trust science. There is a big disconnect between good science and public health policy!

And it should be known I am not a denier. There are tests, procedures and drugs that are truly modern age miracles with little to no negatives. Just which vaccines fall into that category?

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on July 22, 2010
at 02:26 PM

Perhaps if you highlighted the potential issues with vaccination science that you see, we might be better able to respond to your concerns. Vaccines are not usually created spuriously or speculatively, and since there is very good empirical evidence as to whether or not they work, it's far easier to trust them than it is to trust, say, that one should take statins (far more speculative, far less evidence of efficacy). So, to move the discussion along, why not voice your specific concerns? Right now, all I'm seeing is a vague sense of unease, which is impossible to address satisfactorily.

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 03:09 PM

That is more what it is, a vague sense of unease. And that makes it hard to have a blanket acceptance as many commenters offer! I've been plugging around http://www.nvic.org/ and other sites (both pro and con) and still can't wrap my head around each detail.

7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on August 30, 2011
at 04:04 AM

In my experience "a vague sense of unease" usually comes when someone doesn't have a good solid understanding of the science behind vaccination, or a basic understanding of immunity. And I believe that having a knee-jerk response of not trusting any medical science because of the failings of NUTRITIONAL science (which, yes, is extremely lacking, to put it charitably) isn't really rational.

5
62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on July 21, 2010
at 06:33 PM

THis is a difficult topic. Certainly knowledge of vaccinosis is just in it's infancy now. I would agree not to give all shots at once and if my child showed bad reactions, I would consider not doing further ones. Actually, vaccinosis is even more common in pets which typically get repeated vaccinations each year. And I know of puppies that have died from their vaccines. Vaccines are not harmless. I would at least consider the severity of the illness to be prevented before I injected my child or animal.

It just so happens that many experts are suggesting pet animals not be vaccinated yearly anymore. THeir immune systems have good memory just like human immune systems and evidence suggests they do not need yearly boosters any more than humans do. Plus it is a well established fact that cats often get cancer from vaccines and it is a very aggressive cancer that is almost always fatal. The cancer begins exactly at the site of injection on the back of the neck. If you look at vet visit rates after shots, they are much higher in the first month after vaccinations are given than at any other time of the year. Unfortunately, many vets get a large portion of their income from vaccines which cost them pennies to buy and inject for which they charge their clients a large chunk of change. Therefore many vets are happy to continue with the status quo. But vaccines do make many animals sick. I think vaccines are good in some ways, but people definitely need to think about the cost benefit ratio before deciding to inject willynilly. -Eva

5
07ca188c8dac3a17f629dd87198d2098

(7970)

on July 21, 2010
at 02:44 PM

I'm in the camp of "an ounce of prevention is a pound of cure" on this one.

My wife and I had carefully considered it, and we just felt it was best to get all the vaccinations.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on July 22, 2010
at 07:45 AM

Well-put, Tim. Feel very similarly.

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 12:59 AM

I can't just go down that road so simply. By simply turning all CW advice (low fat, high carb, grain and seed oil based diet, near vegetarian ideal) on end I've had too many health gains to simply assume the powers that be know all and have my child's best interest at heart in the matters of vaccinations.

07ca188c8dac3a17f629dd87198d2098

(7970)

on February 28, 2012
at 08:56 PM

Like what, autism?

5437163ddf70d4532f196bfb4333753e

(3614)

on February 28, 2012
at 04:38 PM

But what if that "ounce of prevention" turns into a "ton" of health problems for YOUR child? It's just not always that simple

2a00b9a42e4cb6e489a0e69d20714576

(3043)

on May 26, 2013
at 02:22 PM

Yes like autism. My cousin is proof positive.

4
306aa57660d911781231f8090c2a5619

(3808)

on August 31, 2011
at 06:04 PM

Not to be taken as medical advice. This is how our family made our decisions.

For newborns (during the first two months), the only recommended vaccination is HepB. This not so much because of future behavioral concerns as because it can be transmitted from mother to baby at birth, and early vaccination (within the first 12 hours) can prevent infection of the newborn. We chose to get this one with my second, but not with my third, as between the two I'd had the full HepB vaccination series myself, plus titers drawn, so the chance of me being infected myself was vanishingly slim. I personally think this one is a good idea if the mother's immunity status it not KNOWN (beyond just "I believe myself to be in a monogamous relationship").

DTaP, MMR, Polio - We feel that these vaccinations have a long history, address current health concerns (polio is rare in the west, but definitely not eradicated worldwide, so has the potential for resurgence), and are important from a herd immunity standpoint.

Varicella - I share the concern that the lifespan of this vaccine is unknown, and that I'd prefer natural infection and lifelong immunity to the prospect of it wearing off in adulthood. I do think that it makes sense to get this when approaching the teen years, especially if immunity status is not 100% known.

Hib/PCV/Rota/Flu - These are recommended only during the first year for healthy children. If my child were premature, chronically ill, or in a group care setting on a regular basis I'd consider these. As it is, she's full term, healthy, and stays at home 99% of the time. As such, I don't feel they're particularly beneficial for her from either a disease prevention or a herd immunity standpoint. Rota I'm especially wary of due to a history of complications in previous versions. I have a bit of a distrust of the flu vaccine because it changes yearly, and therefore long-term safety of a given year cannot possibly be adequately tested.

HepA (recommended during the second year) - This is frequently transmitted via food service. If anyone in the family eats food that others have prepared, it's probably not a bad idea.

HPV (older childhood) - I am really unsure about the safety of this one, and thankfully have several more years before it's an issue.

Meningitis (older childhood/teen) - haven't heard much negative about this one.

3
7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on August 31, 2011
at 01:32 PM

It's probably not all that attractive to vilify parents' decisions on this one way or the other.

I do restrict newer vaccines such as the H1N1--the rest I've fully researched and I'm ok with. My youngest had hot fevers after every vaccination round and I'd stay awake at night panicked and wondering if we'd made a bad decision.

Before you have children you believe your ability to be discerning will be superior to other people. Everybody on this site is better prepared and educated about the pros and cons of vaccines/children's health/nutrition etc. by virtue of the paleo lifestyle..education...demographics..inclinations..whatever. That's really great.

Uhh...yes...there are a lot of mommies with no scientific education. That will continue to be true I'm sure. I still think it should be the parents decision and not the powers that be.

After you have a child and you hold this little tiny human completely depending on you--the questions and answers become more complicated. You try to do the best you can.

2
E325297ba0e0c41254ea42a26df0675a

on August 31, 2012
at 07:21 PM

You should never, ever vaccinate a newborn (or anyone for that matter)! A child's immune system isn't fully developed until at least 2 years old. And not to mention the toxic ingredients. I believe it's either China or Japan that may it illegal for any child under two to get a vaccine. And what happened? There incidences of SIDS dramatically dropped for children 2 and under.

50 Reasons To Protect Infants From Vaccines

Dispelling Vaccine Myths

The Greater Good video

The Chalkboard Campaign 4-minute video

Herd Immunity: Three Reasons Why I Don???t Vaccinate My Children??? And Why Vaccine Supporters Shouldn???t Care

2
76c885d7d27e6c83542ea493ca866dcd

(2178)

on August 30, 2011
at 02:56 PM

I think this is a fantastic article about vaccines -- http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller15.html You'll see at the end that he recommends a vaccination schedule that starts with NO vaccines till the kid is 2 years old, then picks what this doctor perceives to be the most important. The best thing about the article is that it links to other sites re: grounded stats and various conflicts of interest.

76c885d7d27e6c83542ea493ca866dcd

(2178)

on August 31, 2011
at 02:07 PM

here's another great one -- http://www.naturalnews.com/033455_Institute_of_Medicine_vaccines.html

2
286a4ff7c362241c5c4b020df4972212

on August 30, 2011
at 04:10 AM

Of course there are pros and cons to everything - and to a certain point its a very personal decision. But the fact remains that the side effects of the disease itself outweigh the side effects of the vaccine - we dont see many side effects of the disease now days because we vaccinate. I am not totally convinced that low insulin levels support the immune system enough to protect from these diseases. But I do know that many kids and adults die from Measles and such in countries where they don't/ cant vaccinate.

Its a really hard decision - Yes - but put it into perspective - just about everyone you know has been vaccinated without problem - there are a LOT of people out there vaccinated.

I know people who believe their child has autism because of vaccination and I also have a good friend who lost her baby to Pertussis just a few years ago. There are risks to both sides the trick is to weigh out the risk for you and your kids.

I am very pro vaccination but I have also decided not to vaccinate for Chicken Pox - I felt that the disease in children was mild - but if they had not had it before the age of 15 I would get antibodies tested and vaccinate as its no fun in Adults. Thats me playing the risk game.

2
F3951b3141a6ab7036b33e70b4bfad71

(269)

on July 21, 2010
at 04:50 PM

I agree 100% with Jamie, it is a personal decision, with tons and tons of conflicting information out there it is up to the parents to research this and implement their own vax strategy. My daughter is turning 1 in 3 weeks and we are in the middle of our research. The first thing we are doing, regardless of how many we decide to allow, is NOT doing them all at once. That is a completely un-natural course of action and does not simulate what would have happened to our ancestors. Our immune systems are powerful but to try and deal with 4-6 vax at once makes no sense at all. Our pediatrician is on board with this an recommends 6-weeks in-between shots (even though this was not offered until we asked).

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on July 22, 2010
at 01:03 AM

Thanks, Ian, good things to consider, there are certainly some mega-vaccines available, and it would make sense to go slow and simple, in any given vaccine chosen.

2
24868bf5aa2c49e269392765932d9dc4

(510)

on July 21, 2010
at 04:32 PM

I vaccinated both my kids--didn't ask a lot of questions, and fortunately they did not have any adverse reactions.

I enquired about the chicken pox vaccination for myself several years prior to becoming pregnant for the 1st time (approximately 15-18 years ago, I think). I never had a documentated case of chicken pox but had been exposed numerous times. My doctor refused to do a titer. I ended up with chicken pox when I was 19 weeks pregnant with child #1. He ended up being fine--but it was a very difficult pregnancy both physically and emotionally due to the chicken pox. If you decide not to vaccinate your child and you have a daughter, please consider the issue of chicken pox and pregnancy--it can be really serious.

1
2a00b9a42e4cb6e489a0e69d20714576

on May 26, 2013
at 02:30 PM

Wow, I am really surprised by all of these answers. I would assume a lot of the paleohacks people buck the government and all the resounding health agencies who control the health industry. Something that is nothing more than a big corporation, whose goal is to "increase shareholder value" at any cost. Just think, newborn baby, another consumer. Lets make them as sick as possible, whereby they will eventually fall prey to Pfizer and their goonies. Build a healthy immune system for your child from liver and egg yolks and fish, seafood, grass-fed meats,organic fruit and vegetables.

It is sick what they do. Here, let me stick this needle full of mercury and other toxic ingredients into your precious newborn. Oh there, their going to be all better and never get sick. Oh yes, new born vulnerable parents, they are perfectly safe! Hush now!

1
81f0fb141fef1cd2a59d614d654d8f28

on August 31, 2012
at 07:26 PM

The above reply by "Jennifer" was me. It wasn't letting me log in. Thanks.

1
0dc1d63c3d5975f5115f535c6a90c9dd

(2283)

on July 21, 2010
at 04:13 PM

We selectively vax. Closer to the non-vaxing side, though. Before you vax, research everything. Mothering.com/discussions has a vaccine forum; check the CDC's own website for the effectiveness of each vaccine and also look into Dr Sears recommendations for vaxing.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on July 22, 2010
at 07:46 AM

@Chris -- why do you think that way of Sears?

0dc1d63c3d5975f5115f535c6a90c9dd

(2283)

on July 22, 2010
at 04:43 AM

Scaremongering goes on in both camps. That's why it is so important to research. The mothering.com and dr sears are given as places to look at. Dr sears is not a fool. He is a well known advocate for attachment parenting. The best places to look are pubmed and the CDC site.

1a8020e101199de55c1b3b726f342321

(1973)

on July 21, 2010
at 10:45 PM

Ignore Dr. Sears, he's a fool.

0dc1d63c3d5975f5115f535c6a90c9dd

(2283)

on July 21, 2010
at 05:48 PM

Matthew, Think what you want.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on July 21, 2010
at 05:09 PM

Wow I just had a look at mothering.com and haven't seen so much uninformed scaremongering nonsense about vaccines in quite a while.

0
Ede6029838b9d17195c84bab64a5d88d

(181)

on September 07, 2013
at 12:44 AM

Based on my own experience (N=1) vaccines are not needed. I had very few vaccines as a child maybe 4-5 (compared to 20 for one year old in these days!). I contracted measles and Hep A and something else, all of which went very mild. My high school tried make me complete the remaining vaccines but I kept delaying it and they finally forgot about me. I have not had a single cold/flu or similar in 20 years. I think keeping immune system in top shape is far superior to any vaccines.

I consulted with several no nonsense MDs and some do not vaccinate their kids, instead focusing on keeping immune system in top shape. They did not give me medical advice, just told me what they do at their home.

Another points against vaccines: 1.Every recalled vaccine proved to be safe by FDA. 2.It is true there is no direct evidence linking vaccines to autism. But the lack of evidence does not clear it either. Just because there is no direct evidence of God's existence no one can prove nor disprove the existence of God. 3. I work in busy office environment and see people get flue shots every year and end up getting flue anyway. Not all of them but most of them.

Again, all of this is strictly my personal opinion.

0
8d65d8a4d639a69bd81d704b900ff261

on May 26, 2013
at 01:00 PM

That vaccines contribute to autism was "debunked" by, surprise, surprise, teams of scientists with ties to the pharmacutical companies that made the vaccines. The studies will prove what you pay them to prove, and because big pharma has the biggest finacial clout the most public studies will have a pro vaccine slant.

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