6

votes

Does this reporting support or challenge your ideas regarding leptin

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created July 16, 2011 at 1:05 PM

With all the leptin-talk over the last few months, much of it courtesy of the vaunted Dr.K/Quiltweaver, I thought I???d see what the consensus was regarding this study and its analysis by Professor Andro:

http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2011/07/carbohydrates-past-6pm-will-make-you.html?spref=fb

If you are practicing methods of leptin-control, or are interested in leptin at all, will this change your approach?

What do you make of the reporting by Andro that leptin is secreted in a diurnal pattern: with a peak at 1am, a steady decrease until its lowpoint at 1pm, and then a rising at 4pm?

Do you think there is any relation to the general IF idea of eating more food later in the day, in a bolus?

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on September 23, 2011
at 09:07 PM

I see. Thanks. I think I know what you mean about feeling able to eat for a while after a meal, and then feeling finished.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on September 23, 2011
at 08:21 AM

In practise it ends up being 5pm, for a mix of practicality and positive effects, but the earlier the better. I've no idea whether I'm in ketosis anywhen, unfortunately. By fasted state I just mean that my last meal has been digested (longer after fat and protein than carbs), I always have more of an appetite post-prandially, but once I've not eaten for a while lose interest in food.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on September 23, 2011
at 02:50 AM

Fascinating stuff. You say "trying not eat too late in the day", and "enter a fasting state at night". How long after eating a carb-heavy meal does it take to enter a fasting state? Does a fasting state mean "back in ketosis"? How early do you strive to eat, and how much carbohydrate does it end up being?

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on July 22, 2011
at 01:30 PM

How odd- I wonder why we evolved this response? Lucky paleos will never be consuming significant amounts of omega 6 I guess.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 22, 2011
at 09:41 AM

the result is immediate but the response at the receptor is long term. I tell my patients that their symptoms are what is going on at a receptor level and not a leptin level. We all know that leptin levels just confused the clinical picture. YOu need to really listen to a patient and look at the collateral labs to gain clinical insight.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on July 22, 2011
at 07:03 AM

Do they raise leptin immediately post-prandially (which is what I'm talking about) or over the long term?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 21, 2011
at 11:21 PM

Carbs are not the only thing that raises leptin .....omega six overload does as well

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 21, 2011
at 10:52 PM

Plus one.......

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on July 19, 2011
at 09:08 PM

Many type 2s that control their diabetes w/diet and medications eventually become insulin dependent. If you believe that you have a limited supply of pancreatic beta cells, and that this supply is limited, then the progression of insulin resistance is more or less inevitable.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on July 19, 2011
at 09:06 PM

This could just be the onset of insulin resistance. About 1/3 of those over 65 are diabetic; another 1/3 are prediabetic. Only 1/3 is thought to be free of insulin resistance. This is understandable if you believe the theory that the pancreatic beta cells are killed off gradually from BG rises as people age.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 16, 2011
at 11:38 PM

Think they also had a dot net address way back, before Tnation.com got cleaner. Dot net wutlol

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 16, 2011
at 11:36 PM

I could see, very generally as we age, some kind of carbohydrate tolerance decreasing. But then again I'd have to think is that just a reflection of one's decreased activity levels or actually something inherent in the aging process.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 16, 2011
at 08:01 PM

The real issue is I believe vlc paleo is ideal as we age......many here don't think about that variable often

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 16, 2011
at 07:39 PM

Totally agree with you. I treat patients who have broken metabolisms and are representative of the majority of America and not PHackers. But I think many of the principles we use to optimize patients can be quite helpful to most. I think when you add some of the principles to your diet and try to tweak your current N - 1

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on July 16, 2011
at 05:36 PM

Back in the day, when T-Nation was T-Mag, it was occasionally ridiculed. Some of this ridicule was because of strange food-combining articles by John Berardi, some because of supplement-pushing, and some of it was for excessive bro-ism. But still, probably the best/biggest source of fitness information on the web?

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on July 16, 2011
at 05:26 PM

I went back to the link to see if I could get to the original study, and it looks like they studied only obese subjects.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 16, 2011
at 04:37 PM

When I started lifting I joined this powerlifting gym that's in an old textile factory in Worcester MA. http://www.baystategym.com/ T-Nation reminds me of that place.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 16, 2011
at 04:11 PM

Ah, another Tnation denizen, awesome;) that site is so funny: insightful, straight forward articles all the time, with an aesthetic straight out of jersey shore.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on July 16, 2011
at 04:09 PM

plus one for enthusiastic answer

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 16, 2011
at 01:26 PM

good to see you back, Saegis. You went awol for a bit there

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10 Answers

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2
66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on July 16, 2011
at 06:01 PM

For me I am following this with interest but the jury is still out, lots more research is needed. As for me I have always naturally tended to eat little throughout the day and eat heavy at night. A lot of my people follow a similar pattern and when I speak to Elders they say that it was very similar in the time before the white man changed things. They tend to get up early, might have a light meal/snack then get work done / go hunting, then the tribe gathers for a large common meal before sundown.

6
5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on July 21, 2011
at 10:34 PM

Diurnal baseline leptin release (that has been known about for many years) will be overwhelmed by spikes in leptin secondary to carbohydrate intake.

In almost all of these studies, there is no accounting for leptin resistance that may occur long term; the studies are not carried out long enough. So there may be short-term gain i.e. reduced appetite secondary to carb loading secondary to a spike in leptin, but continued repetition of this will cause leptin resistance. If I am correct, and I firmly believe that I am, that leptin resistance is primarily secondary to and caused by leptin overexposure, then anything that spikes leptin will ultimately result in leptin resistance, that being the ultimate culprit. There may be short-term gain, but long-term detriment.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 21, 2011
at 10:52 PM

Plus one.......

6
0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 16, 2011
at 03:51 PM

http://paleohacks.com/questions/44555/any-ever-do-hear-of-carbohydrate-backloading#axzz1SHc6vCiO

I asked a carb backloading question a while back and I am so glad to see you bring it up again - with the ANDRO stamp of approval!

Keifer's site has a bit more on this. I've also looked into his carb nite solution.

I've been saving carbs for night time, using resistance exercise as well of course and have noticed the following - smaller waist size, better sleep and interestingly better skin quality. Also, I am finally making gains in the squat deadlift department - the quest for booty continues.

I am interested in leptin control, I have been following Dr. K, I read Rosedale, I also read the blogs like Keifer's and T-Nation, etc. to get their take. I am starting from a place of senstivity, so I guess the evening carbs prolly work well for me because of that. Also, the training, I train pretty heavy.

IFing doesn't work well for me - I think fasting maybe does weird things in women - but that's speculation. Dr. Eades likes to say a high fat/protein low carb diet mimics starving, without the calories restriction. So, I've not been fasting during the day, rather I've been eating vlc until night.

I don't know if this adequately addresses your question, I was just excited to see this topic again :)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on July 16, 2011
at 05:36 PM

Back in the day, when T-Nation was T-Mag, it was occasionally ridiculed. Some of this ridicule was because of strange food-combining articles by John Berardi, some because of supplement-pushing, and some of it was for excessive bro-ism. But still, probably the best/biggest source of fitness information on the web?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on July 16, 2011
at 04:09 PM

plus one for enthusiastic answer

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 16, 2011
at 04:11 PM

Ah, another Tnation denizen, awesome;) that site is so funny: insightful, straight forward articles all the time, with an aesthetic straight out of jersey shore.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 16, 2011
at 11:38 PM

Think they also had a dot net address way back, before Tnation.com got cleaner. Dot net wutlol

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 16, 2011
at 04:37 PM

When I started lifting I joined this powerlifting gym that's in an old textile factory in Worcester MA. http://www.baystategym.com/ T-Nation reminds me of that place.

2
Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on July 16, 2011
at 06:21 PM

A good study, I like it. I would be careful not to interpret this so much as "carbs past 6 are good" rather than "carbs for breakfast are bad", that is the conclusion and partially explains why low carb diets are so good for quick short-term fat loss.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 16, 2011
at 11:36 PM

I could see, very generally as we age, some kind of carbohydrate tolerance decreasing. But then again I'd have to think is that just a reflection of one's decreased activity levels or actually something inherent in the aging process.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 16, 2011
at 08:01 PM

The real issue is I believe vlc paleo is ideal as we age......many here don't think about that variable often

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on July 19, 2011
at 09:06 PM

This could just be the onset of insulin resistance. About 1/3 of those over 65 are diabetic; another 1/3 are prediabetic. Only 1/3 is thought to be free of insulin resistance. This is understandable if you believe the theory that the pancreatic beta cells are killed off gradually from BG rises as people age.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on July 19, 2011
at 09:08 PM

Many type 2s that control their diabetes w/diet and medications eventually become insulin dependent. If you believe that you have a limited supply of pancreatic beta cells, and that this supply is limited, then the progression of insulin resistance is more or less inevitable.

2
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 16, 2011
at 01:49 PM

The basis of IFing well ala leangains require leptin sensitivity for optimal results

1
1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 22, 2011
at 01:32 AM

hm....there is a difference between decreasing leptin resistance(increasing sensitivity) and increasing leptin. i think this is where people get mistaken.

leptin sesitivity means your receptor raising leptin is about the carb feeding

in fat people reducing leptin is necessary. but there comes a threshold your brain determines where all the positives go negative and you get the leptin drop induced by diet/weight loss. thats where increasing calories sporadically/cyclically helps when one wishes to maintain a health but lower weight than their body predetermines(set point i guess). leptin should equate with your leaness

more body fay= less need for leptin increases but more need for lowering it(any diet will do as long as you lose weight and do your best to keep muscle)

leptin is a result of caloric intake/balance and body fat.

now...leptin receptors/resistance is a whole nother ball field. i think its more daily activities/dopamine regulation/hormone balance/emotional balance/sleep/vita D/season of the year it is etc...

1
E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on July 17, 2011
at 08:44 AM

I suppose this is more or less what I do already, insofar that though I don't eat many carbs, I eat all my carbs (apart from a few low carb vegetables) in the evening. This is largely because part of the reason why I reintroduced carbs in the first place was because a small dose before bed was supposed to help with sleep (and I'd been suffering from waking too early), but also it just seemed and felt intuitive. I'd read before about a carbohydrate meal early in the day substantially blunting fat burning for the rest of the day and based on vague Taubesean considerations about carbs and insulin, it seemed likely that eschewing carbs throughout the day (and only having one big meal of protein during that time) would be optimal.

I don't think this particular study tells us a great deal though. Stabby hit the nail on the head when he noted that this just shows a benefit from not eating your carbohydrate throughout the day, rather than showing a benefit to eating carbohydrate late per se. The positive changes that the even carb group gain are also those that we normally see in people losing weight, low carbing or fasting.

On the leptin point generally. That rhythm makes sense and also fits my experience of variations in energy. Claims to be able to reset leptin are intriguing, since it seems a potentially powerful mechanism, but a rather vague science. I've been particularly interested in this, again due to my sleep. The central idea I've been following is that eating (in a way that provokes a response from leptin, i.e. not plain fat) primes the body to think that it's daytime and thus to wakefulness, so although I've been eating most of my carbs at my evening meal, I've been trying not to eat too late in the day (which is hard to achieve). When I have managed to enter a fasting state before bed, my sleep and wakefulness the next day has always been good. Prior to this I've also often eaten most of my calories (typically a huge protein meal) very early and then eating very little throughout the rest of the day. I've normally done this when I'm sleep deprived- I find the huge dose of protein can really crank up the cortisol and blood sugar (rather like a cup of coffee).

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on July 22, 2011
at 07:03 AM

Do they raise leptin immediately post-prandially (which is what I'm talking about) or over the long term?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 21, 2011
at 11:21 PM

Carbs are not the only thing that raises leptin .....omega six overload does as well

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 22, 2011
at 09:41 AM

the result is immediate but the response at the receptor is long term. I tell my patients that their symptoms are what is going on at a receptor level and not a leptin level. We all know that leptin levels just confused the clinical picture. YOu need to really listen to a patient and look at the collateral labs to gain clinical insight.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on July 22, 2011
at 01:30 PM

How odd- I wonder why we evolved this response? Lucky paleos will never be consuming significant amounts of omega 6 I guess.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on September 23, 2011
at 02:50 AM

Fascinating stuff. You say "trying not eat too late in the day", and "enter a fasting state at night". How long after eating a carb-heavy meal does it take to enter a fasting state? Does a fasting state mean "back in ketosis"? How early do you strive to eat, and how much carbohydrate does it end up being?

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on September 23, 2011
at 08:21 AM

In practise it ends up being 5pm, for a mix of practicality and positive effects, but the earlier the better. I've no idea whether I'm in ketosis anywhen, unfortunately. By fasted state I just mean that my last meal has been digested (longer after fat and protein than carbs), I always have more of an appetite post-prandially, but once I've not eaten for a while lose interest in food.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on September 23, 2011
at 09:07 PM

I see. Thanks. I think I know what you mean about feeling able to eat for a while after a meal, and then feeling finished.

1
8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on July 16, 2011
at 05:23 PM

I guess I am getting more picky, but before I would take away anything from a study such as this, I'd like to see the individual data for each subject. I do not believe in the overall averages as an indication of anything. I don't care all that much about what hormonal pattern he sees, since I am pretty much sure that I follow a different pattern. Putting the carbs in the evening is popular in a number of plans, including the Carb Addicts diet. Even Dr. K suggests keeping breakfast low in carbs. I try to keep carbs low in the early part of the day, since carbs in the morning greatly increase afternoon and evening cravings. I am not sure why this is so, and for me I don't really care all that much because by being on a low-carb, grain-free diet, the carbs are so easy to avoid anyway. I am already certain that it is hormonal. IF'ing with both food and carb-eating in the afternoon and evening did not work for me. What concerns me about a number of these studies is what I also see in the CW studies and "evidence-based" recommendations. That is, to do a study on healthy young men, badly apply it to fat old women, broadcast their ONE RIGHT WAY, and then admonish the women when it doesn't work for them.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 16, 2011
at 07:39 PM

Totally agree with you. I treat patients who have broken metabolisms and are representative of the majority of America and not PHackers. But I think many of the principles we use to optimize patients can be quite helpful to most. I think when you add some of the principles to your diet and try to tweak your current N - 1

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on July 16, 2011
at 05:26 PM

I went back to the link to see if I could get to the original study, and it looks like they studied only obese subjects.

1
4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

on July 16, 2011
at 01:25 PM

I think the key here is that the group only rating carbs in the PM are having their blood sugar spike less often and therefore a better overall balance.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 16, 2011
at 01:26 PM

good to see you back, Saegis. You went awol for a bit there

0
8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on July 19, 2011
at 01:35 AM

What would really be interesting would be to take a similar study and change the carb-eating window, say from dinner only. That is the basis of the Carbohydrate Addicts diet. I think you can eat all the "good" carbs at the evening meal, but it has to be within an hour. Curious to see how this WOE would compare to carb-eating later at night.

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