13

votes

At what dose does sex become unhealthy and endocrine disrupting?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created June 28, 2011 at 6:52 PM

I'm trying to be careful about the way I ask this as to not makes this a lewd question. I've been reading some Ayurvedic literature (for better or for worse) while reading TS Wiley and wondering, thinking about the Ayurvedic fear of regular ejaculation. Have sex or imitating sexual acts stimulates the endocrine system (in men DHT, DHA, testosterone, cortisol, luteinizing hormone, etc). Sperm is also rich in nutrients. Every time ejaculation occurs there is a loss of nutrients and an endocrine response. Over utilizing this in nature was likely not an issue do to seasonal endocrine and climate changes and the lack of super-stimulus (i.e. pornography). In a world without seasons and with super-stiumulus, people are engaging in this nutrient demanding, endocrine stimulating act with increasing regularity. What are the negative implication of this world in which a dry spell never occurs? What would be a paleo solution to the potential problems?


Addendum -- Sex on whole: healthy. But what is the J curve? When (at what frequency and to whom) do detrimental effects start to occur? Can sex exacerbate hormonal imbalances?Could too frequent of sex (or simulated sex) become a chronic stressor?

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

No J curve then? ever? Based on what?

B1859f696e88d25460a6b8a333412ea3

(837)

on June 07, 2012
at 04:36 AM

We have sex more often and for far longer now than ever in our years together. If things hurt or ache, it's likely due to being 'really close' to coming for a long time, or from lots of vigorous activity trying to come.

D45e43b08cd99a04f5d4294a871e1078

(1010)

on March 31, 2012
at 06:07 PM

^I guess we could agree that raw oysters are the best source for treating this condition. Everyone knows they increase sex drive from experience!

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on March 31, 2012
at 04:22 PM

Still don't know what you mean by raw nutrient. If you mean food based: Still Oysters. Salt from Sea salt. More sources of zinc: http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/zinc-food-sources.html If you have a chronic infection, you'll waste zinc like a MF and probably will require supplementation until the infection goes away.

D45e43b08cd99a04f5d4294a871e1078

(1010)

on March 30, 2012
at 10:25 PM

^I mean supplements aren't a raw nutrient, they're processed.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 30, 2012
at 01:18 PM

I think that's why the hype didn't stick around in Western religions very long. A collective "eff that" pretty much quashed it.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on March 30, 2012
at 04:13 AM

I am definitely irritable the next day if I don't finish. And. "things" hurt/ache down there if I don't let one go, as it were. As for the disconnect, I agree. I feel more like being left alone afterwards, and miss the closeness felt pre-orgasm.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on March 30, 2012
at 03:36 AM

This answer simply depresses me. Glad to hear it works for you. I am one of the simple souls who likes the rosy sweaty glow and snoring after. But mainly? I think we need a more pro-woman sex positive world, and orgasms are empowering.

7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on March 30, 2012
at 02:01 AM

According to my body, all that Eastern woo about not ejaculating is a huge load of bullshit. I start having prostate issues if I go too long without exercising the plumbing.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:49 PM

The BSDM community warns about dom's telling their sub's too be abstinent for too long for the younger fella's, to consider the health of their prostate. So that is some culture around keeping the prostate healthy...

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:44 PM

What do you mean by raw form? If you mean in food oysters are great for zinc and salt is great for salt (na+). If you mean by supplementation, sea salt and zinc-picolinate (30grams a day-ish).

3408e1d1c7d6b49fca2edb96b433ff9b

(129)

on March 29, 2012
at 08:27 PM

I am very surprised. I haven't noticed that effect in me but for sure my husband is in a much happier state of affairs the following day after "finishing". If he doesn't the next day is GRUMPY!

D45e43b08cd99a04f5d4294a871e1078

(1010)

on March 29, 2012
at 08:08 PM

What are best sources of zinc and sodium, in the raw form?

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on March 29, 2012
at 04:15 PM

I was going to post "rug burn" but thought that offered too many possibilites to go off track, then though "chafing" but that's boring and smacks of uncomfortable shoes.. so will go with "trituration."

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on March 29, 2012
at 04:10 PM

Much better than my saying "rug burn." Wait..

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on March 29, 2012
at 04:06 PM

adrenal fatigue often correlates with both zinc and na+ wasting. You could stop jacking off or you could up zinc and sodium.

19acef0aed67ef8dc1118d8e74edb349

(2954)

on December 26, 2011
at 01:37 AM

(and yes, now as an adult, sex with intact men also feels soothing/relaxing to me, where sex with circumcised penis is annoying/stressful). Not sure why I'm posting this, but it seems relevant to the question ;P Just something to keep in mind when thinking about cortisol/stress.

19acef0aed67ef8dc1118d8e74edb349

(2954)

on December 26, 2011
at 01:31 AM

The motion was gentle and the sounds simple, even as teenager sleeping across my parents room, it didn't bother me, it's not like pornography at all. Not that stimulating. More like "loving gestures", not as arousing/stressing. I know when I hear weird American sex, it sounds stressful to me. I feel mediate high stress. Not how I remember it back home, where it felt "soothing".

19acef0aed67ef8dc1118d8e74edb349

(2954)

on December 26, 2011
at 01:29 AM

Eric: the sex might not be private, but from my experience of co-sleeping with my parents as a child (the norm where I came from), "normal" sex is hardly noticeable. Not a freak show like today with circumcised men and women who pretend painful orgasms.

D45e43b08cd99a04f5d4294a871e1078

(1010)

on December 25, 2011
at 11:24 PM

^I'm going to try and abstain from masturbating as much as possible, trying to quite cold turkey. From age 13 till now, it's been probably about 7 times a week on average. Now I'm going for once a month, and to have sex as much as I can get it, which isn't a lot considering I have adrenal fatigue and can't really get a girls attention.

Medium avatar

(3029)

on December 25, 2011
at 10:39 PM

+1 for "woo centric"

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on December 25, 2011
at 04:06 PM

Now , let us remember,sex is different than ejaculation. Montak Chia is right on target in this regard as well. If you practice his recirculation of sexual energy (CHING) with/or without a partner you will aid the adrenals. Shoot for five, then ten, then twenty acts of love making without ejaculation. It's a differnt state of reality.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on December 25, 2011
at 03:58 PM

Montak Chia clued me into this very connection. I have pretty severe adrenal issues if I don't "nail" my lifestyle/diet. The day after too much ejaculation (eg. twice in twelve hours makes me very lethargic/slightly depressed/ anxious for 24 hours. I feel exactly the same as when I do too much weight training the day before. Exactly the same, except no DOMS(muscle soreness. It wears out the adrenals. I have no doubt.

A0f2f0f632d42215944a798486bddde1

(1377)

on August 26, 2011
at 01:31 PM

@ Eric: In "The Red Queen," it's said that sex is almost always done in private, from people to birds. Has to do with genes and stuff. Back in the day it wouldn't have been hard to do it behind a couple of trees.

F52b51135f2c47eb46c986fdc9760b9b

(180)

on July 21, 2011
at 01:01 PM

Karezza is an interest of mine as well, but I didn't realize that it could be considered paleo in any way. Would you say it's paleo for historic reasons, biological reasons...or some other reason?

425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on July 13, 2011
at 05:35 PM

Note the reasoning behind wheat is more than "I expected to feel X and did! Proof!"

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on July 07, 2011
at 01:43 PM

XYZ, and how does the paleo community go about telling people not to eat wheat. Is it 30 days N=1? hmm.

B1859f696e88d25460a6b8a333412ea3

(837)

on July 03, 2011
at 08:07 PM

I'm puzzled (or maybe you've just recently discovered Karezza), but you're the person who posed the hack/question: http://paleohacks.com/questions/39167/hack-how-paleo-men-taste#axzz1QsoicntG

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on June 29, 2011
at 11:30 PM

Thank you, mari!

425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on June 29, 2011
at 05:30 PM

Lesson one in N=1 experimentation: You are your own ____worst____ judge of how something effects you. That's actually the problem. And why foolish woo beliefs persist in the population of people who claim to be experimenting and learning.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 29, 2011
at 05:19 PM

Very excellent point Ryan H.

072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on June 29, 2011
at 05:04 PM

While I'd like to think I can give intelligent thought to any question, I've seen this one out there for a day or so, and can't get past the initial reaction of "huh?" If I can get it, I'll take it, downside (if any) be damned.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 29, 2011
at 02:31 PM

I know EXACTLY what you mean by "orgasm hangover" and that is well-put! It's interesting that you say that you both got this, since I would not have thought this would be an issue for females. It's also EXTREMELY interesting what you say about the "disconnect" post-orgasm.Since practicing karezza, I definitely feel A LOT OF LOVE for my partner post-coitus. Prior to karezza, I just wanted to be left alone. Very interesting observations!

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on June 29, 2011
at 12:37 PM

I think the benefits of love and sex are independent of one another but additive to a greater degree when both present. I think the benefits of orgasm are well established in the literature already. I think if this is n-1 question the results will vary greatly because of the individuals health but for my practice the response is to engage in as much as you want because it's great for health and longevity and best if done with someone you love for the same reason.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on June 29, 2011
at 03:21 AM

orgasm hangover. fascinating.

8be7a492e2844e2ad5595a6c73974f99

(891)

on June 29, 2011
at 03:21 AM

yes. beautifully shared!

8be7a492e2844e2ad5595a6c73974f99

(891)

on June 29, 2011
at 03:16 AM

yeah, the question is what are the physical/psychological benefits of sex or masturbation without ejaculation? sex and health on all levels of being human go hand in hand, i don't need a study to know that. The question is what are the benefits of sex used in a way that contains, circulates and builds throughout the body and the body of our lover?

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on June 29, 2011
at 02:40 AM

from my digging around, it seems more because the question hasn't been asked.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on June 29, 2011
at 02:33 AM

There is even data now that shows that men benefit from PDE2 inhibitor use even when they are normal functioning. Kinda amazing. So the key is use your stuff. Its evolutionary biology supportive. From what I have seen myself I think there is no scientific data showing withholding the ejaculate is beneficial. I think there is evidence however for the contrary.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on June 29, 2011
at 02:27 AM

no J curve I know of is published in urology literature. I say have at it.

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on June 29, 2011
at 01:49 AM

I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion... If it interferes with your life/career your working to much.

A31b063c5866c08aa9968a8f2f1e9949

(1721)

on June 28, 2011
at 11:44 PM

My point was that they may have reached similar stimulation levels through other contexts, and as a result, have had high levels of sexual activity, not that daily life in cave land would have been a Larry-Flynt-produced porno.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on June 28, 2011
at 11:37 PM

High definition, well lit, ungodly acts seen from ridiculous angles with crazy zoom. Oh yeah, that s what cave land was like...

B1859f696e88d25460a6b8a333412ea3

(837)

on June 28, 2011
at 11:24 PM

WOW! Someone else that practices Karezza.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on June 28, 2011
at 11:21 PM

High definition, well kit, ungodly acts seen from ridiculous angles with crazy zoom. Oh yeah, that s what cave land was like...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 11:13 PM

It's a separate issue, but I agree with you about pornography. It's deadening, mechanical, repetitive. It's like the assembly line has invaded your bedroom. Here's what's worse. Like lots of pop-culture fashion, it leaks out into real life. We compare ourselves to it and think we have to imitate it.

A31b063c5866c08aa9968a8f2f1e9949

(1721)

on June 28, 2011
at 11:04 PM

I would think that groups of cavemen/cavewomen living together would have had little privacy. Therefore instead of having video, they may have still got a "super-stimulus" effect through the live show? I don't think sex would have always been the inherently private act then that it is today.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 11:02 PM

Just to let you know, I did not notice any effect from this when I was an adolescent and, believe me, alone or with another person I was frequently doing this. It's only as I grew older that I took notice. This is noted in the Taoist literature on this subject. There are recommendations as to frequency based on age. So the healthy frequency of a 16 y.o. would differ from a 50 y.o. Mind you this is about frequency of ejcl not frequency of coitus.

8be7a492e2844e2ad5595a6c73974f99

(891)

on June 28, 2011
at 11:00 PM

thanks for the lively comments Thomas!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:56 PM

Even if there were not direct health benefits, even if it could be proven that frequent ejcl. were not detrimental and did not make me tired, I would still practice this because of the prolonged and enhanced pleasure it brings. That said, some women do not like it because it feels like something is missing. However, I have found those women to be the minority. Can't please everybody!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:54 PM

MKS, my understanding is that Ali is "in the club". I don't know where I got that. Maybe from Norman Mailer's book on the Ali-Foreman "Rumble in the Jungle" or maybe from some other source. Don't know if it's urban legend or not. I agree with you, sometimes you've got to go with N=1. I understand the concerns about scientific corroboration. But sometimes, you've got to give it your best shot, or not give it your best shot, as in this case :) I also agree with you that lovers don't know what they are missing. Even if there were no direct health benefits to

91c2e2a35e578e2e79ce7d631b753879

(2081)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:50 PM

"Sperm is also rich in nutrients." Oh, I am SO going to keep my husband away from this thread...

91c2e2a35e578e2e79ce7d631b753879

(2081)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:49 PM

+1 for "If frequent ejaculation really had any effect whatsoever on nutrition status, teenage boys would be dropping dead left and right of severe malnutrition." That literally made me laugh out loud (says the mother of two sons).

8be7a492e2844e2ad5595a6c73974f99

(891)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:41 PM

i hear ya olivia..it's totally my trip..:)

7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:35 PM

hahah you got me there, though that was kind of in jest. But honestly I just don't think this is worth worrying about.

8be7a492e2844e2ad5595a6c73974f99

(891)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:29 PM

teenage boys and men have also been eating SAD for a long time too, and many are far from dropping dead.

8be7a492e2844e2ad5595a6c73974f99

(891)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:23 PM

You know, for me, I don't eat real food because science or studies say so, I do because it feels right. energetically, spiritually, physically...This whole movement is about getting real, getting grounded in our bodies. first we look at food, then sex...all about getting into the lower body, finding alignment, uniting heaven and earth and getting society out of our center. woo woo woo totally to the max.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on June 28, 2011
at 10:16 PM

I had a comment, but it was honestly too dirty to post. Use your imagination.

9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

(15833)

on June 28, 2011
at 08:33 PM

"Women weaken legs." - Rocky Balboa's trainer

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on June 28, 2011
at 08:30 PM

"I wish we knew how frequently Paleo man ejaculated." Quote of the week, Pete! I'm thinking more in terms of a clinical setting. When should frequency of sex/masturbation be considered symptomatic, disruptive, or causative.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on June 28, 2011
at 08:22 PM

Ambimorph, nice picture :)

Fe87afa634afe26f4f6fd956abe0b46a

(565)

on June 28, 2011
at 08:10 PM

I'm going from memory, but I think "frequent" meant a few times a week for the purposes of that study. As for the Olympians and health, I agree, but they do tend to have high levels of testosterone, despite apparent high levels of sexual activity. I know you're looking at this with a much broader lens. Certainly one that goes beyond testosterone. I wish we knew how frequently Paleo man ejaculated.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:53 PM

12 weeks is clearly too long to go without. Several shorter term studies have found a few week of abstinence correlating with a raising of testosterone (here's one: http://www.springerlink.com/content/1elxf861chc5p9jv/). I do not take a general Olympian as symbol of health. Take cyclists, figure skaters and marathoners as examples. Frequent means very little. How frequent is frequent. A few times a month? A few times a week? A few times a day?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:53 PM

Hope that is working for you as well as the mangos...hope even better!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:46 PM

How did they carry out that study? Look, it might very well be a woo-woo belief, but before the discovery of bacteria washing your hands before surgery was considered woo-woo, too. As for myself, I am going to side with the prejudices of N=1. No doubt in my mind that I get worn down if I ejcl. too frequently. So maybe more is happening than we can presently quantify.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:46 PM

Sex is healthy yes. I'm asking more about at what dosage (and in what time frame) does it become unhealthy. Could too regular of sex (or stimulated) become a chronic stressor? Is this all just theory mumbo-jumbo or is this something that is impacting individuals today?

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:42 PM

oh yea... i eat a lb of strawberries these days. less fructose...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:37 PM

Hey, you are the guy who eats mangos! :)

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:32 PM

slick advertising...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:31 PM

What I like about this approach is that you can "eat your cake and have it too. But don't think I am telling you to eat your own cake, because that's not what I'm saying ;)

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15 Answers

best answer

31
9e20abb05f3f6e3cc4bb107f8980aecd

on March 29, 2012
at 04:08 PM

When you feel compelled to ask about it on online forums?

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on March 29, 2012
at 04:10 PM

Much better than my saying "rug burn." Wait..

Ce7e28769d92d5de5533e775b1de966e

on March 29, 2012
at 04:15 PM

I was going to post "rug burn" but thought that offered too many possibilites to go off track, then though "chafing" but that's boring and smacks of uncomfortable shoes.. so will go with "trituration."

15
100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:13 PM

Yes, well, I consider modern pornography quite parallel to refined sugar, and therefore not in the paleo spirit. It's sad when people find they can't get excited over real, whole people anymore, and I wouldn't be surprised if overuse of pornography changes the brain quite concretely. Other than this super-stimulus effect, I tend to think of most of the detriment in emotional and social terms, though.

I haven't thought much about the effects of frequent ejaculation. I don't know much about it. However, I was under the impression that constant masturbation is a normal part of at least adolescence, even without any visual aid.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 11:13 PM

It's a separate issue, but I agree with you about pornography. It's deadening, mechanical, repetitive. It's like the assembly line has invaded your bedroom. Here's what's worse. Like lots of pop-culture fashion, it leaks out into real life. We compare ourselves to it and think we have to imitate it.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on June 28, 2011
at 08:22 PM

Ambimorph, nice picture :)

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on June 29, 2011
at 11:30 PM

Thank you, mari!

10
7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:18 PM

I'm trying not to sound like the cranky skeptic I am but this is straight-up woo. I really, really cannot imagine how sex could lead to hormonal imbalances, there's pretty much no information at all to suggest that it could. I think if you're worrying about something like that you might be becoming a teeny bit obsessive about reaching perfect health or whatever.

Men make millions of sperm every day. If frequent ejaculation really had any effect whatsoever on nutrition status, teenage boys would be dropping dead left and right of severe malnutrition.

91c2e2a35e578e2e79ce7d631b753879

(2081)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:49 PM

+1 for "If frequent ejaculation really had any effect whatsoever on nutrition status, teenage boys would be dropping dead left and right of severe malnutrition." That literally made me laugh out loud (says the mother of two sons).

7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:35 PM

hahah you got me there, though that was kind of in jest. But honestly I just don't think this is worth worrying about.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 11:02 PM

Just to let you know, I did not notice any effect from this when I was an adolescent and, believe me, alone or with another person I was frequently doing this. It's only as I grew older that I took notice. This is noted in the Taoist literature on this subject. There are recommendations as to frequency based on age. So the healthy frequency of a 16 y.o. would differ from a 50 y.o. Mind you this is about frequency of ejcl not frequency of coitus.

8be7a492e2844e2ad5595a6c73974f99

(891)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:29 PM

teenage boys and men have also been eating SAD for a long time too, and many are far from dropping dead.

8be7a492e2844e2ad5595a6c73974f99

(891)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:41 PM

i hear ya olivia..it's totally my trip..:)

8
B1859f696e88d25460a6b8a333412ea3

on June 29, 2011
at 03:16 AM

In March of 2010, my partner and I decided (after I read a book about Slow Sex/Karezza) to try it - what did we have to lose? We figured if we didn't see a benefit, we could go right back to orgasmic sex. A simple, safe self-experiment!

We've been together more than 15 years, and have been through various sexual adventures - polyamory being one of them, but generally lots of regular sex. And now, more than a year later, we can safely say that our relationship has never been better and the sex is fantastic - off the charts fantastic. Both of us noticed the hang-over we get from orgasm, and the disconnect and lowering of compassion and camaraderie between us post orgasm. He gets more irritable the next day, I get more so in about 10 days, so for me, it's a long cycle.

We just ignore the woo part, and let our own sense of deep love and contentment be our guide. I'm never going back to fertilization driven sex. (See Sex at Dawn for one man's take on Paleo sex.)

All I can say is that I wish I had learned about Karezza AND Paleo/Primal 20 years ago!

8be7a492e2844e2ad5595a6c73974f99

(891)

on June 29, 2011
at 03:21 AM

yes. beautifully shared!

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on June 29, 2011
at 03:21 AM

orgasm hangover. fascinating.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 29, 2011
at 02:31 PM

I know EXACTLY what you mean by "orgasm hangover" and that is well-put! It's interesting that you say that you both got this, since I would not have thought this would be an issue for females. It's also EXTREMELY interesting what you say about the "disconnect" post-orgasm.Since practicing karezza, I definitely feel A LOT OF LOVE for my partner post-coitus. Prior to karezza, I just wanted to be left alone. Very interesting observations!

B1859f696e88d25460a6b8a333412ea3

(837)

on July 03, 2011
at 08:07 PM

I'm puzzled (or maybe you've just recently discovered Karezza), but you're the person who posed the hack/question: http://paleohacks.com/questions/39167/hack-how-paleo-men-taste#axzz1QsoicntG

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on March 30, 2012
at 03:36 AM

This answer simply depresses me. Glad to hear it works for you. I am one of the simple souls who likes the rosy sweaty glow and snoring after. But mainly? I think we need a more pro-woman sex positive world, and orgasms are empowering.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on March 30, 2012
at 04:13 AM

I am definitely irritable the next day if I don't finish. And. "things" hurt/ache down there if I don't let one go, as it were. As for the disconnect, I agree. I feel more like being left alone afterwards, and miss the closeness felt pre-orgasm.

3408e1d1c7d6b49fca2edb96b433ff9b

(129)

on March 29, 2012
at 08:27 PM

I am very surprised. I haven't noticed that effect in me but for sure my husband is in a much happier state of affairs the following day after "finishing". If he doesn't the next day is GRUMPY!

B1859f696e88d25460a6b8a333412ea3

(837)

on June 07, 2012
at 04:36 AM

We have sex more often and for far longer now than ever in our years together. If things hurt or ache, it's likely due to being 'really close' to coming for a long time, or from lots of vigorous activity trying to come.

8
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:26 PM

I am not sure this is a problem. However, here is my Paleo solution to it. I practice Karezza, coitus reservatus, however you want to call it. I don't know if the Taoists and Ayurvedists are right that frequent ejaculations are damaging. I just want to prolong the pleasure and be able to engage for as long as I like without the downtime of a refractory period.

Some women like this. Other's don't.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:31 PM

What I like about this approach is that you can "eat your cake and have it too. But don't think I am telling you to eat your own cake, because that's not what I'm saying ;)

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:32 PM

slick advertising...

B1859f696e88d25460a6b8a333412ea3

(837)

on June 28, 2011
at 11:24 PM

WOW! Someone else that practices Karezza.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:53 PM

Hope that is working for you as well as the mangos...hope even better!

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:42 PM

oh yea... i eat a lb of strawberries these days. less fructose...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:37 PM

Hey, you are the guy who eats mangos! :)

F52b51135f2c47eb46c986fdc9760b9b

(180)

on July 21, 2011
at 01:01 PM

Karezza is an interest of mine as well, but I didn't realize that it could be considered paleo in any way. Would you say it's paleo for historic reasons, biological reasons...or some other reason?

6
Fe87afa634afe26f4f6fd956abe0b46a

(565)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:44 PM

Hormonally, there are no lasting negative effects of sex/ejaculation. In fact, abstaining from sex for 12 weeks has been shown to cause a dramatic drop in testosterone. The belief that sex saps a fighter's legs, or an athlete's energy has been proven to be a myth.

There are also studies that show that viewing pornography raises testosterone levels. Additionally, it has been said that in the 1980's Bulgarian weightlifters sexually stimulated themselves (without ejaculating) prior to a big lift, to maximize testosterone. (Bulgarians are Elite power lifters).

The Olympic Village is notorious for going through an unbelievable number of condoms.

As for frequent ejaculation, studies have shown that it's healthy for the prostate when you are under 40, and not so healthy for the prostate if you're over 40. I'm not sure how thorough the studies were on that one though.

I agree that multiple ejaculations in a day are energy sappers. I haven't seen anything measurable, or any studies relating to this. Maybe the Taoists are onto something.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:53 PM

12 weeks is clearly too long to go without. Several shorter term studies have found a few week of abstinence correlating with a raising of testosterone (here's one: http://www.springerlink.com/content/1elxf861chc5p9jv/). I do not take a general Olympian as symbol of health. Take cyclists, figure skaters and marathoners as examples. Frequent means very little. How frequent is frequent. A few times a month? A few times a week? A few times a day?

9a5e2da94ad63ea3186dfa494e16a8d1

(15833)

on June 28, 2011
at 08:33 PM

"Women weaken legs." - Rocky Balboa's trainer

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on June 28, 2011
at 08:30 PM

"I wish we knew how frequently Paleo man ejaculated." Quote of the week, Pete! I'm thinking more in terms of a clinical setting. When should frequency of sex/masturbation be considered symptomatic, disruptive, or causative.

Fe87afa634afe26f4f6fd956abe0b46a

(565)

on June 28, 2011
at 08:10 PM

I'm going from memory, but I think "frequent" meant a few times a week for the purposes of that study. As for the Olympians and health, I agree, but they do tend to have high levels of testosterone, despite apparent high levels of sexual activity. I know you're looking at this with a much broader lens. Certainly one that goes beyond testosterone. I wish we knew how frequently Paleo man ejaculated.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:49 PM

The BSDM community warns about dom's telling their sub's too be abstinent for too long for the younger fella's, to consider the health of their prostate. So that is some culture around keeping the prostate healthy...

3
81348acb7b886e2b32ca915d250268f3

(1022)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:03 AM

I've been doing a bit of reading on this and have found some interesting [articles].1 The excessive masturbation theory makes a lot of sense, and depending on the validity of the findings of the experiment regarding testosterone levels, it makes even more sense. From an evolutionary perspective, we have never had so much sexual stimulation available to us before. And to get sexually stimulated, we had to put in effort to be the alpha male. In modern times, you don't have to be the alpha male, you can be the zeta male and still get 'pussy' so to speak. So on a biological level, your body is effectively satisfied without the need for any effort.

3
8be7a492e2844e2ad5595a6c73974f99

(891)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:05 PM

I buy the woo hook line and sinker and +1 for Thomas being a big boy and having command over his sex...here's my take, science out of the equation, this is about your potency man! Your ability to contain your chi/energy/essence and not flail it around everywhere. I bet Thomas feels a big fat difference, not just in bed, but walkin around in the world. As a woman, woo centric though I am, I am awesomely turned on by a man that can...let's just say...handle a woman. a real live wild primal wo-man...

I have heard tell of men that approached this practice and their experience is that they just didn't know what they were missing. Absolutely does matter, damn the studies, n=1...Miles Davis and Ali (I think Ali is in the club, totally not going to Google it) didn't play before they had to play.

my two cents.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:56 PM

Even if there were not direct health benefits, even if it could be proven that frequent ejcl. were not detrimental and did not make me tired, I would still practice this because of the prolonged and enhanced pleasure it brings. That said, some women do not like it because it feels like something is missing. However, I have found those women to be the minority. Can't please everybody!

8be7a492e2844e2ad5595a6c73974f99

(891)

on June 28, 2011
at 11:00 PM

thanks for the lively comments Thomas!

8be7a492e2844e2ad5595a6c73974f99

(891)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:23 PM

You know, for me, I don't eat real food because science or studies say so, I do because it feels right. energetically, spiritually, physically...This whole movement is about getting real, getting grounded in our bodies. first we look at food, then sex...all about getting into the lower body, finding alignment, uniting heaven and earth and getting society out of our center. woo woo woo totally to the max.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 10:54 PM

MKS, my understanding is that Ali is "in the club". I don't know where I got that. Maybe from Norman Mailer's book on the Ali-Foreman "Rumble in the Jungle" or maybe from some other source. Don't know if it's urban legend or not. I agree with you, sometimes you've got to go with N=1. I understand the concerns about scientific corroboration. But sometimes, you've got to give it your best shot, or not give it your best shot, as in this case :) I also agree with you that lovers don't know what they are missing. Even if there were no direct health benefits to

Medium avatar

(3029)

on December 25, 2011
at 10:39 PM

+1 for "woo centric"

2
D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on March 30, 2012
at 03:40 AM

This thread is making me want to beat my head against a wall. Hard. I am now going to go read some Dan Savage.

2
518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:10 PM

All across the globe, in different religions and cultures, male abstinence has been considered a way of preserving the very "maleness" of a man, and that if he was to "spill his seed" too often, disaster would result. Ladies, we had the "wandering wombs" that were brought back by sexual stimulation (by a physician, just wondering, how weird would it be being, erm, stimulated by your doctor? Now you'll have that image for the rest of the day). Ayurvedic's are absolutely not alone in fearing the "draining" of men.

Honestly? If you can be tipped into nutritional depletion by ejaculation, you probably have bigger problems going on. And bad move nature, if you give someone a libido that spurs them to pursue a quantity of sex preferable for them, and then it turns out it is draining men of all that is male. And wouldn't the male libido tank when males are sick then? Because most studies show that men will continue to pursue the same amount of sex regardless of their health (the "knock first" policy of isolation rooms in the hospital could attest to this).

7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on March 30, 2012
at 02:01 AM

According to my body, all that Eastern woo about not ejaculating is a huge load of bullshit. I start having prostate issues if I go too long without exercising the plumbing.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 30, 2012
at 01:18 PM

I think that's why the hype didn't stick around in Western religions very long. A collective "eff that" pretty much quashed it.

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 30, 2012
at 01:05 AM

Re: Nutrient Loss

Isn't this why you ask for a sandwich afterwards?

On a more serious note...

When it goes soft...leave it alone.

I same more serious, not absolutely serious.

1
D45e43b08cd99a04f5d4294a871e1078

(1010)

on December 25, 2011
at 06:49 AM

I'm posing another question for my answer: Anyone have positive effects on adrenal fatigue from abstaining from masturbating regularly?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on December 25, 2011
at 03:58 PM

Montak Chia clued me into this very connection. I have pretty severe adrenal issues if I don't "nail" my lifestyle/diet. The day after too much ejaculation (eg. twice in twelve hours makes me very lethargic/slightly depressed/ anxious for 24 hours. I feel exactly the same as when I do too much weight training the day before. Exactly the same, except no DOMS(muscle soreness. It wears out the adrenals. I have no doubt.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on December 25, 2011
at 04:06 PM

Now , let us remember,sex is different than ejaculation. Montak Chia is right on target in this regard as well. If you practice his recirculation of sexual energy (CHING) with/or without a partner you will aid the adrenals. Shoot for five, then ten, then twenty acts of love making without ejaculation. It's a differnt state of reality.

D45e43b08cd99a04f5d4294a871e1078

(1010)

on December 25, 2011
at 11:24 PM

^I'm going to try and abstain from masturbating as much as possible, trying to quite cold turkey. From age 13 till now, it's been probably about 7 times a week on average. Now I'm going for once a month, and to have sex as much as I can get it, which isn't a lot considering I have adrenal fatigue and can't really get a girls attention.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on March 29, 2012
at 04:06 PM

adrenal fatigue often correlates with both zinc and na+ wasting. You could stop jacking off or you could up zinc and sodium.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on March 29, 2012
at 09:44 PM

What do you mean by raw form? If you mean in food oysters are great for zinc and salt is great for salt (na+). If you mean by supplementation, sea salt and zinc-picolinate (30grams a day-ish).

D45e43b08cd99a04f5d4294a871e1078

(1010)

on March 29, 2012
at 08:08 PM

What are best sources of zinc and sodium, in the raw form?

D45e43b08cd99a04f5d4294a871e1078

(1010)

on March 31, 2012
at 06:07 PM

^I guess we could agree that raw oysters are the best source for treating this condition. Everyone knows they increase sex drive from experience!

D45e43b08cd99a04f5d4294a871e1078

(1010)

on March 30, 2012
at 10:25 PM

^I mean supplements aren't a raw nutrient, they're processed.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on March 31, 2012
at 04:22 PM

Still don't know what you mean by raw nutrient. If you mean food based: Still Oysters. Salt from Sea salt. More sources of zinc: http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/zinc-food-sources.html If you have a chronic infection, you'll waste zinc like a MF and probably will require supplementation until the infection goes away.

1
2ab6415f5f20b8fe1d34a94c7be85e6a

on June 29, 2011
at 01:43 AM

When it interferes with your life/career your overdoing it.

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on June 29, 2011
at 01:49 AM

I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion... If it interferes with your life/career your working to much.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 29, 2011
at 05:19 PM

Very excellent point Ryan H.

1
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on June 29, 2011
at 01:28 AM

The more you have the better your HPA axis works......have at it.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

No J curve then? ever? Based on what?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on June 29, 2011
at 02:33 AM

There is even data now that shows that men benefit from PDE2 inhibitor use even when they are normal functioning. Kinda amazing. So the key is use your stuff. Its evolutionary biology supportive. From what I have seen myself I think there is no scientific data showing withholding the ejaculate is beneficial. I think there is evidence however for the contrary.

8be7a492e2844e2ad5595a6c73974f99

(891)

on June 29, 2011
at 03:16 AM

yeah, the question is what are the physical/psychological benefits of sex or masturbation without ejaculation? sex and health on all levels of being human go hand in hand, i don't need a study to know that. The question is what are the benefits of sex used in a way that contains, circulates and builds throughout the body and the body of our lover?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on June 29, 2011
at 02:27 AM

no J curve I know of is published in urology literature. I say have at it.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on June 29, 2011
at 02:40 AM

from my digging around, it seems more because the question hasn't been asked.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on June 29, 2011
at 12:37 PM

I think the benefits of love and sex are independent of one another but additive to a greater degree when both present. I think the benefits of orgasm are well established in the literature already. I think if this is n-1 question the results will vary greatly because of the individuals health but for my practice the response is to engage in as much as you want because it's great for health and longevity and best if done with someone you love for the same reason.

0
425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:38 PM

Let's say all of this is true, just for the sake of discussion. How microscopic an effect do you think is at work?

Btw: studies on athletes have shown that no-sex-before and sex-before are equivalent and make no difference. So might need to square that with the woo beliefs before pursuing it.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:46 PM

Sex is healthy yes. I'm asking more about at what dosage (and in what time frame) does it become unhealthy. Could too regular of sex (or stimulated) become a chronic stressor? Is this all just theory mumbo-jumbo or is this something that is impacting individuals today?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 28, 2011
at 07:46 PM

How did they carry out that study? Look, it might very well be a woo-woo belief, but before the discovery of bacteria washing your hands before surgery was considered woo-woo, too. As for myself, I am going to side with the prejudices of N=1. No doubt in my mind that I get worn down if I ejcl. too frequently. So maybe more is happening than we can presently quantify.

425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on June 29, 2011
at 05:30 PM

Lesson one in N=1 experimentation: You are your own ____worst____ judge of how something effects you. That's actually the problem. And why foolish woo beliefs persist in the population of people who claim to be experimenting and learning.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on July 07, 2011
at 01:43 PM

XYZ, and how does the paleo community go about telling people not to eat wheat. Is it 30 days N=1? hmm.

425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on July 13, 2011
at 05:35 PM

Note the reasoning behind wheat is more than "I expected to feel X and did! Proof!"

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