3

votes

Something is wrong - lipids

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created October 30, 2012 at 2:51 AM

There is definitely something wrong. I know you're not supposed to sweat your numbers, but mine are pretty awful. I'm a 25 y/o male. I've just been declined life insurance.

TC 404 HDL 36.2 LDL 351.2 Trig 83

I eat a diet mostly consisting of meat, with some rice, beans and potato -- little vegetables, and no nuts. The carbs are a MUCH smaller part than the meat. My average days food is a 12oz of organic minced beef, and lamb/chicken (with skin) for dinner. Occasional eggs as well, and a little bit of (always full cream) milk products. I'm probably more sedentary than I should be, but I'm trying to get out there and run every day -- and these numbers, especially the HDL, are giving me excellent motivation. Don't get me wrong, I'm not fat -- I'm just inactive.

My family has a history of high cholesterol and stroke. I know some folk wont like the association I made there, but cholesterol and death go hand in hand in my family. It may be caused by genetic thyroid or liver problems; I'm not saying the lipid hypothesis is true, just that in my family, something about the cholesterol kills.

What should I do, what can I do? Most important to me is getting that HDL up, though everyone's take is, of course, welcome.

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 09, 2012
at 01:53 PM

One thing I like about eggs is they are nutrient dense, which makes them a little different than oils and concentrated fats. Just curious if you're a Perfect Health Diet follower (I am), since you're okay with white rice?

5e92edc5a180787a60a252a8232006e9

(345)

on November 09, 2012
at 05:37 AM

If you're taking coconut oil and heavy fat dairy out, might as well take eggs out too. Stick to healthy carbs like yams, sweet potatoes, taro, yuca, white rice. I'm at my lowest weight on a healthy carb diet (150-200g). My trigs are also lower than ever: 60.

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 08, 2012
at 01:16 PM

Familial Hypercholesterolemia

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 08, 2012
at 02:32 AM

I'm ApoE4/3 that's basically FH on heavy SFA, eggs, dairy (300 LDL). I'm currently experimenting with using macadamia nut oil and olive oil instead of coconut oil and butter. Still eat 3 eggs/day and suspect I might need to scale that down some too. http://paleohacks.com/questions/93451/hacking-hdl-up-for-apoe4/146998#146998

7f6e1a20a0e0f17640b6a8dfa2ccfee5

(15)

on November 08, 2012
at 02:10 AM

FH? What is that?

5e92edc5a180787a60a252a8232006e9

(345)

on November 07, 2012
at 10:04 PM

I"m ApoE4 and when I go heavy SaFA, my LDL is around 120-150. If I go heavy tubers, LDL ~70. But I'm a very moderate case: many ApoE4s are basically FH on heavy SaFA, plus eggs and dairy.

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 07, 2012
at 01:07 PM

Moderate to high carb Paleo with reduced SFA for ApoE4 is interesting. This would likely mean better LDL numbers and does it affect inflammation/oxidation. And what amount and types of fats are needed for a healthy brain/body http://paleohacks.com/questions/80505/potential-hacks-resolve-heart-brain-dilemma-for-apoe4

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 06, 2012
at 01:35 AM

Yep, yep. Dairy fat can be problematic with some folks.

7f6e1a20a0e0f17640b6a8dfa2ccfee5

(15)

on November 01, 2012
at 06:31 PM

No, no tests. I know for sure there is high cholesterol there, with or without. When everyone is being treated for high cholesterol, it can't be environmental. We all live very different lives.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on November 01, 2012
at 12:08 AM

Travis Culp found the connection while using lots of butter.

D3921bf1a4e27fdf65c52e98f845dd45

(100)

on October 30, 2012
at 12:31 PM

+++++++++++++++

276a5e631b62f8e0793987c0496364bb

(1644)

on October 30, 2012
at 12:24 PM

Wasn't the correlation with dairy, specifically?

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 30, 2012
at 11:12 AM

You might want to avoid o-6 yes, but MUFAs from nuts may or may not be HDL raising. So I would personally include macadamias specifically, seeing as they are very pufa low. Olives and avocados perhaps too along with said fatty fish, and more importantly lots of exercise. Not because I am sure MUFAs or omega-3s will help, just because they might raise your HDL.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 30, 2012
at 11:11 AM

You might want to avoid pufas yes, but MUFAs from nuts may or may not be HDL raising. So I would personally include macadamias specifically, seeing as they are very pufa low. Olives and avocados perhaps too along with said fatty fish, and more importantly lots of exercise. Not because I am sure MUFAs or omega-3s will help, just because they might.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 30, 2012
at 11:08 AM

Oh, and as I said above, thryoid can effect this stuff. A low thryoid can increase these numbers. Id get it checked, because thryoid is a mysterious beast, its not usually just a simple matter of diet if its wonky there.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 30, 2012
at 11:07 AM

Id probably do all three though (nuts, fatty fish, and exercise). I think this post is overall good advice. +1 Only thing id add, is perhaps some cranberries, or rocket for the K, and definately do the eggs and liver...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 30, 2012
at 11:03 AM

Raising HDL is a bit of a mysterious art theres lots of talk, MUFAs from nuts, omega-3 from fish. My breif look seem to suggest that yes, they may or may not help, but exercise is likely better/more reliable. You defo want some choline in the diet though IMO, and vit k, to support the liver in moving lipids about.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 30, 2012
at 11:00 AM

Thyroid can effect lipids strongly...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 30, 2012
at 11:00 AM

Had your thryoid tested?

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 30, 2012
at 05:46 AM

has you family been tested for familial hypercholesterolemia?

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 30, 2012
at 05:45 AM

walnuts are high in PUFA and gut-irritating and generally won't help anything

7f6e1a20a0e0f17640b6a8dfa2ccfee5

(15)

on October 30, 2012
at 04:23 AM

I'm definitely going to get my thyroid checked, and my testosterone. I'll look very closely at your diet recommendations. One question; I thought walnuts were good for raising HDL? I haven't been eating them, but I was thinking of starting.

7f6e1a20a0e0f17640b6a8dfa2ccfee5

(15)

on October 30, 2012
at 04:12 AM

If it is of any importance, it is always stroke. Not heart disease, or heart attack. Always, always stroke. Off topic: I also have a chance for a genetic disorder on my mothers side that increases red blood count, further thickening the blood. My brother is expressing both the . I feel for him -- he gets weekly blood drawn to thin it out.

7f6e1a20a0e0f17640b6a8dfa2ccfee5

(15)

on October 30, 2012
at 04:11 AM

It was a year or two ago, and they were similar. I'm going to get a copy to see if they were better or worse. I was first prescribed statins when I was 16. My fathers cholesterol reached a high of 600+ (not sure if TC or LDL). He is alive (54y/o), but he has suffered numerous minor strokes. I don't want to take the statins, because they make my right side ache. I took them for a few years, and since then, I have a much harder time remember things and arranging my thoughts. I'd prefer to die of stroke than die of organ failure or alzheimers.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on October 30, 2012
at 04:02 AM

I'd also have a coronary calcium scan done. Additionally, it'd be worth closely tracking dietary and activity interventions to see what brings down your LDL and improves your HDL.

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8 Answers

3
Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

on October 30, 2012
at 03:49 AM

Familial hypercholesterolemia is a problem. I don't think that anyone who understands it would deny this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001429/

Listening to the Chris Kresser/ Chris Masterjohn podcasts would be a great idea. You would very likely benefit from purchasing Kresser's cholesterol program.

It's super important for you to move more often than not - standing desk, lifting heavy stuff, maintaining low body fat.

Go seriously hardcore on eliminating polyunsaturated fats since it may be the oxidation of those fats (being carried around in the LDL particles) that is problematic for you.

Be sure you're supporting your thyroid with sufficient selenium and iodine intake.

Be sure to get sufficient vitamin k2 in the forms of MK4 and MK7. Sufficient -- but not excessive -- vitamin D3 is also very important. Be sure to eat approx 4 oz beef liver weekly for the A, choline and copper.

In your shoes I'd focus on eating plenty of plants (think Mark Sisson/Paul Jaminet paleo), beef and fatty fish plus a couple of excl quality eggs per day and would avoid higher PUFA foods like poultry/poultry skin, pork and large quantities of nuts.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 30, 2012
at 05:45 AM

walnuts are high in PUFA and gut-irritating and generally won't help anything

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 30, 2012
at 11:08 AM

Oh, and as I said above, thryoid can effect this stuff. A low thryoid can increase these numbers. Id get it checked, because thryoid is a mysterious beast, its not usually just a simple matter of diet if its wonky there.

7f6e1a20a0e0f17640b6a8dfa2ccfee5

(15)

on October 30, 2012
at 04:23 AM

I'm definitely going to get my thyroid checked, and my testosterone. I'll look very closely at your diet recommendations. One question; I thought walnuts were good for raising HDL? I haven't been eating them, but I was thinking of starting.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 30, 2012
at 11:03 AM

Raising HDL is a bit of a mysterious art theres lots of talk, MUFAs from nuts, omega-3 from fish. My breif look seem to suggest that yes, they may or may not help, but exercise is likely better/more reliable. You defo want some choline in the diet though IMO, and vit k, to support the liver in moving lipids about.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 30, 2012
at 11:11 AM

You might want to avoid pufas yes, but MUFAs from nuts may or may not be HDL raising. So I would personally include macadamias specifically, seeing as they are very pufa low. Olives and avocados perhaps too along with said fatty fish, and more importantly lots of exercise. Not because I am sure MUFAs or omega-3s will help, just because they might.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on October 30, 2012
at 04:02 AM

I'd also have a coronary calcium scan done. Additionally, it'd be worth closely tracking dietary and activity interventions to see what brings down your LDL and improves your HDL.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 30, 2012
at 11:07 AM

Id probably do all three though (nuts, fatty fish, and exercise). I think this post is overall good advice. +1 Only thing id add, is perhaps some cranberries, or rocket for the K, and definately do the eggs and liver...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 30, 2012
at 11:12 AM

You might want to avoid o-6 yes, but MUFAs from nuts may or may not be HDL raising. So I would personally include macadamias specifically, seeing as they are very pufa low. Olives and avocados perhaps too along with said fatty fish, and more importantly lots of exercise. Not because I am sure MUFAs or omega-3s will help, just because they might raise your HDL.

2
45ace03a0eff1219943d746cfb1c4197

(3661)

on October 30, 2012
at 06:28 AM

At first glance, I'd try adding lots of lower carb vegetables and skipping the potato, rice, dairy, and beans for awhile. Of course, stress management is important, too.

D3921bf1a4e27fdf65c52e98f845dd45

(100)

on October 30, 2012
at 12:31 PM

+++++++++++++++

1
A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on October 30, 2012
at 05:15 AM

Avoiding diary fat might be worthwhile, as several users on this website have reported seeing a strong correlation between things like butter and very high LDL: http://paleohacks.com/questions/36855/i-think-i-may-have-figured-out-why-some-of-us-have-really-high-ldl#axzz2AkmSb7wP

My personal opinion is that because this seems to be a case of familial hypercholesterolemia it might be beneficial to start making tubers, fruits, and vegetables a bigger part of your diet. I don't think a high fat diet is a great idea for all FH's.

Katherine already covered thyroid importance, so I'll just restate it for emphasis.

Finally, in an answer a while back I suggested stress related cortisol may be a big factor in low HDL. Stress management techniques, magnesium, and vitamin C might be helpful in this regard.

Hope these suggestions were helpful!

276a5e631b62f8e0793987c0496364bb

(1644)

on October 30, 2012
at 12:24 PM

Wasn't the correlation with dairy, specifically?

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on November 01, 2012
at 12:08 AM

Travis Culp found the connection while using lots of butter.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 06, 2012
at 01:35 AM

Yep, yep. Dairy fat can be problematic with some folks.

1
76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 30, 2012
at 03:57 AM

whoa. first of all, I would get retested immediately. second, how long have you been on the Paleo diet? third, definitely get tested for familial hypercholesterolemia. have you had your cholesterol numbers taken before? if so, were they similar or radically different from what they are now?

7f6e1a20a0e0f17640b6a8dfa2ccfee5

(15)

on October 30, 2012
at 04:11 AM

It was a year or two ago, and they were similar. I'm going to get a copy to see if they were better or worse. I was first prescribed statins when I was 16. My fathers cholesterol reached a high of 600+ (not sure if TC or LDL). He is alive (54y/o), but he has suffered numerous minor strokes. I don't want to take the statins, because they make my right side ache. I took them for a few years, and since then, I have a much harder time remember things and arranging my thoughts. I'd prefer to die of stroke than die of organ failure or alzheimers.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on October 30, 2012
at 05:46 AM

has you family been tested for familial hypercholesterolemia?

7f6e1a20a0e0f17640b6a8dfa2ccfee5

(15)

on October 30, 2012
at 04:12 AM

If it is of any importance, it is always stroke. Not heart disease, or heart attack. Always, always stroke. Off topic: I also have a chance for a genetic disorder on my mothers side that increases red blood count, further thickening the blood. My brother is expressing both the . I feel for him -- he gets weekly blood drawn to thin it out.

7f6e1a20a0e0f17640b6a8dfa2ccfee5

(15)

on November 01, 2012
at 06:31 PM

No, no tests. I know for sure there is high cholesterol there, with or without. When everyone is being treated for high cholesterol, it can't be environmental. We all live very different lives.

0
5e92edc5a180787a60a252a8232006e9

(345)

on November 06, 2012
at 09:16 PM

If your whole family has high TC, then it's probably not thyroid-related. It looks like FH or APOE 4 genes. I would look at markers of inflammation such as liver enzymes, CRP, ESR. We know you don't exercise much, which hurts your HDL.

Is your diet straightened out? Based on 83 trigs, it seems to be. If you're Apoe4, decreasing saturated fat from dairy and eggs could lower your LDL, often drastically. In that case, your answer might be moderate to high carb Paleo: increase tubers, white rice and vegetables but reduce beef, lamb, pork, and chicken. Low or no dairy and eggs. Some ApoE4 folks lower their LDLs drastically with a higher carb intake. If you're FH, however, you might not see significant improvement with this type of diet.

5e92edc5a180787a60a252a8232006e9

(345)

on November 07, 2012
at 10:04 PM

I"m ApoE4 and when I go heavy SaFA, my LDL is around 120-150. If I go heavy tubers, LDL ~70. But I'm a very moderate case: many ApoE4s are basically FH on heavy SaFA, plus eggs and dairy.

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 07, 2012
at 01:07 PM

Moderate to high carb Paleo with reduced SFA for ApoE4 is interesting. This would likely mean better LDL numbers and does it affect inflammation/oxidation. And what amount and types of fats are needed for a healthy brain/body http://paleohacks.com/questions/80505/potential-hacks-resolve-heart-brain-dilemma-for-apoe4

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 08, 2012
at 02:32 AM

I'm ApoE4/3 that's basically FH on heavy SFA, eggs, dairy (300 LDL). I'm currently experimenting with using macadamia nut oil and olive oil instead of coconut oil and butter. Still eat 3 eggs/day and suspect I might need to scale that down some too. http://paleohacks.com/questions/93451/hacking-hdl-up-for-apoe4/146998#146998

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 09, 2012
at 01:53 PM

One thing I like about eggs is they are nutrient dense, which makes them a little different than oils and concentrated fats. Just curious if you're a Perfect Health Diet follower (I am), since you're okay with white rice?

5e92edc5a180787a60a252a8232006e9

(345)

on November 09, 2012
at 05:37 AM

If you're taking coconut oil and heavy fat dairy out, might as well take eggs out too. Stick to healthy carbs like yams, sweet potatoes, taro, yuca, white rice. I'm at my lowest weight on a healthy carb diet (150-200g). My trigs are also lower than ever: 60.

0
Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 06, 2012
at 01:28 PM

Triple Your HDL Cholesterol has some specific ideas to consider that has worked for Jonathan Carey, who is heterozygous familial hypercholesterolemia.

How I changed my diet and raised my "good" cholesterol from 34 to 91 without any prescription medicines!

0
7f8bc7ce5c34aae50408d31812c839b0

(2698)

on November 06, 2012
at 01:33 AM

You may be deficient in several micronutrients like copper and choline. Your diet doesn't seem to contain significant sources of these.

See this http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/03/answer-day-what-causes-high-ldl-on-low-carb-paleo/ for more info.

Good luck.

0
Dc6407193ba441d1438f6f0c06af872b

on November 06, 2012
at 01:22 AM

Even according to paleo-friendly docs like Dr Dayspring, FH is a case where statins would make sense. Do have yourself tested for FH.

7f6e1a20a0e0f17640b6a8dfa2ccfee5

(15)

on November 08, 2012
at 02:10 AM

FH? What is that?

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 08, 2012
at 01:16 PM

Familial Hypercholesterolemia

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