13

votes

What kind of fat do you eat on Dr. Rosedale's high fat diet?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created April 18, 2011 at 5:02 PM

I found Dr. Rosedale's recent remarks very interesting so I tried to find out specifics on what fat he recommends in his high fat diet. In his book he says that he does not recommend dairy products because of the high saturated fat content. On page 69 he says that supplementing with omega-3 will not counteract the damage that results from a diet high in saturated fat. He says to eat more "good fats" and a lot less saturated fats.

Toward the end of an interview with Jimmy Moore last year Dr. Rosedale seems to reluctantly say that saturated fat is ok after his initial 3 week phase of his diet, saying that it's ok to cook with butter or ghee.

He recommends only limited carbs and for protein he only recommends meat the size of a deck of cards, so large amounts of a fat source are needed. Does anyone have experience with this diet and can you give an example of the type/amount of fat you eat per day? I am trying to imagine how I can ingest a cup of olive oil or a couple of sticks of butter per day.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Dr Rosedale, Can you point me to studies that identifies increasing telomere length increases the risk of cancer. And can you point me to a protocal that is successful in lengthening telomeres? All I can find are studies that associates shortened telemeres with cancer, diabetes, etc. Also, all I can find are commercial enterprises that have located a molecule from the Astragalus root that may be successful in lengthening telomeres..or at least slow up the shortening process.

E7e7e1c856d4494d4a1b700b6869df90

(982)

on May 12, 2012
at 07:18 PM

LDL ^ depends if it is "fluffy" or "dense" My understanding Triglycerides are more important than cholesterol levels

E7e7e1c856d4494d4a1b700b6869df90

(982)

on May 12, 2012
at 07:08 PM

I go by desire to eat it. If I cannot stomach another bite of protein and check my daily consumption I am usualy right on 70 g+-. Other days I easily eat a burger, bacon and eggs all in one meal.

E7e7e1c856d4494d4a1b700b6869df90

(982)

on May 12, 2012
at 06:57 PM

I can't resist..looks like one whole coconut (including the husk) 3 x/day- add a dash of ghee and an avocado here and there :) love the discussion which does make good sense to me. extra comment: I wonder how many other diet protocols are sabotaged by publishers. Thank fully self pulishing is now extremely easy and increasingly acceptable.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on December 14, 2011
at 06:31 PM

Chapa...see my 1st answer above for what Dr. R eats...high fat/mod protein/low carb. Omelets with veggies and butter, cheese etc...I dont see him down caff. coffee or tea...but he will do decaf.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on December 07, 2011
at 11:58 PM

it is a feast. Breakfast, have a protein drink mixed in with my coffee, (coffee caffeine free type) with a dollop of whipped cream on top. I might snack on almond muffins, mixed salad with some nuts, little balsamic and olive oil, and something protein in there. half an avocado, eat it with a spoon like it were a dessert. tonight will have a really nice leak curry dish, sliced leaks/mushrooms, few peas, chicken, cream, curry powder, onions, garlic, bean sprouts for a little crunch, anything else left in the fridge cauliflower etc. dessert few berries with sour cream.

286a4ff7c362241c5c4b020df4972212

(1288)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:12 AM

I dont get too caught up in exact protein - but generally eat between 60 - 80 gms of protein a day - not 150 - 200 that many eat here - I think that simplifies things a LOT

27361737e33ba2f73ab3c25d2699ad61

(1880)

on November 11, 2011
at 10:33 PM

Then how come the so-called good fats are olive oil and nuts which contain appreciable amounts of omega 6? What is "too many"?? We're back to fear of walnuts...

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 11, 2011
at 09:20 PM

omega-6 and too many polyunsaturated fats in general are the #1 killer in america and beyond

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:08 PM

LBM is pretty easy to measure. Someone experienced can spot approx fat percentage just by looking. Most people fall within a certain percentage. Just get a caliper if you wanna do it yourself.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 20, 2011
at 11:20 PM

Though my knowledge of the Kitavans is less, I believe much the same applies to them, and there are similar myths based on poor science and falsities that is being written about them that unfortunately is getting much unwarranted publicity.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 20, 2011
at 11:16 PM

"This study [Caloric Restriction, the Traditional Okinawan Diet, and Healthy Aging] lends epidemiologic support for phenotypic benefits of CR in humans and is consistent with the well-known literature on animals with regard to CR phenotypes and healthy aging."... I have not seen a breakdown of the calories eaten, but it's known that they eat more fish and fibrous vegetables and lower calories. Simple logic could conclude that they eat fewer non-fiber carbohydrates, which, along with reduced stress, may account for their increased average lifespan

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 20, 2011
at 11:16 PM

In the most comprehensive study pertaining to the Okinawan diet and longevity entitled, "Caloric Restriction, the Traditional Okinawan Diet, and Healthy Aging" published in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, the following was found; “Findings include low caloric intake and negative energy balance at younger ages, little weight gain with age, life-long low BMI...and survival patterns consistent with extended mean and maximum life span." The study concluded…

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 20, 2011
at 11:15 PM

There are many speculations of why Okinawans have a high number of centenarians. It does appear that they eat a low retain calorie diet. What Nick Lane has said is the following,p 275 “Oxygen”, “based on a 25 year study, the book [The Okinawa Way written by a Japanese cardiologist] argues that the secret of the Okinawans... goes beyond genes, diet, and exercise to their relaxed lifestyle and low level of stress. The Okinawans have a word for it, "tege", which means 'half-done': forget timetables, forget finishing today things that can be done tomorrow. I suspect they are probably right.”

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 20, 2011
at 11:15 PM

That being said, the Okinawans eat considerably more fish than other groups and a higher percentage of carbohydrates as vegetables i.e. fiber as opposed to starches. Most of the fiber gets excreted, so Okinawans are likely relatively calorie restricted. Also, overindulging in food among Okinawans is very frowned upon. I don't know much about the Kitivans but I suspect much the same applies.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 20, 2011
at 11:14 PM

I wrote a few comments about this in a thread to a question relating to “carbohydrates and longevity” on August 27, 2011. You may wish to go there though I will also answer here in several parts; As far as the Okinawans and other groups... we must distinguish between increasing maximal lifespan that CR can do and I believe my diet also can do, and increasing average lifespan. Increasing average lifespan is nice but not near as powerful as extending youth and increasing maximum lifespan.. For that there are no human counterparts; only science as revealed in animal studies.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:20 PM

I find this hard to swallow when the longest living and healthiest cultures seem to be starch heavy (ie Kitavans, okiniwana, etc

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 29, 2011
at 12:08 AM

Carnosine has been shown to reduce DNA damage of telomeres in cultured fibroblasts...That's very different that what you are saying. Please reference your statement. Carnosine is a dipeptide made up of histidine and alanine and having mostly to do with preventing glycation. I have spoken to and had lunch several times with one of its original researchers, Alan Hipkiss, U of Birmingham, UK. He had wished to collaborate on studies where carnosine would be administered IV as it does not completely pass through the GI tract undigested, and is typically made endogenously.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 28, 2011
at 11:38 PM

Dr K says,"CR has never been shown to increase longevity...We all know longer telomeres confer health and longevity...l -Carnosine found predominately in animal proteins alone can stop telomere shortening.." I have no idea where you get your information...it is utter nonsense. CR has been shown to slow aging in dozens of species since the 1930s and is considered the gold standard for doing so. Length of telomeres has no correlation with longevity between species. Within an individual telomere length is and must be highly variable depending on the cell type...

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 10:58 PM

Starch is broken down into sugars very quickly, starting in your mouth. What your cells end up eating when you eat starch is sugar. Sugar glycates, forms AGE's, increases insulin, increases leptin, accelerates aging, causes insulin resistance and leptin resistance, causing disease and accelerated rate of aging. References for this are so numerous I wouldn't know where to begin. Perhaps reading my book might get you started.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 10:09 PM

... But I also agree with you when you say that "any doc that understands leptin is the key is a good doc", and applaud you for same.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 10:07 PM

Dr. K... I have followed telomere research for 20 years. When first discovered it created much excitement in aging research, however over the last decade or so interest in telomeres as a significant cause of aging has greatly waned, and for good reason. It took several generations for adverse effects to reveal themselves in telomerase knockout mice.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:59 PM

From discussion below; Dr. Delpinho's study supports what I have said about telomeres. From the Harvard Gazette on Delpinho's study 11-28-10; "This [developing cancer] remains a concern because cancer cells turn on telomerase [to lengthen telomeres] to make themselves virtually immortal. DePinho said the risk can be minimized by switching on telomerase only for a matter of days or weeks — which may be brief enough to avoid fueling hidden cancers or cause new ones to develop." The only problem in lengthening telomeres to slow aging over the last 25 year has been its connection with cancer.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:49 PM

Thank you Dr. K for partaking in this discussion, as it appears to have provoked people's thinking on the subjects, and that is always good.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:48 PM

We do agree, as you say, on a most critical aspect of human health; the importance of leptin. However, we may differ on how to use it to maximize health as I believe Byron Richards, whom you endorse, misses some of the critical science on how to properly control leptin, as it seems that he must not have actually measured it in patients to see what various dietary manipulations actually did to it. Regardless, it would be great to team up to educate people about what leptin is and does, as it appears most of the bloggers on this and Stephan's site believe it all new..

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:30 PM

also, sorry about some of the grammatical errors.. voice recognition is far from perfect, as is my proofreading.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:28 PM

...and yes, it would be great if people read more of my previous writings including my book, because many of the answers to insulin and leptin and diet are in there predating sometimes by 20 years what people are “discovering” and writing about today. Hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved..

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:26 PM

Actually, we do act as mice and rats, even worms and flies, all the way down to yeast. Most of the metabolic pathways we are talking about our highly conserved throughout the animal kingdom and evolution and it would be quite arrogant to think that we are separate. For instance the c. elegans worm responds to human insulin just like we do, shortening its lifespan when extended by reduced insulin signaling (daf-2 mutations). The major knowledge gathered from the various genome projects is how similar they all are, much more similar than different and it's time we stressed those similarities.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:15 PM

...and Delpinho didn't reverse aging for the first time. Lifespan wasn't even measured. He appeared to accelerated appearances of aging, and then bring it back to where it was. Many researchers in the past manipulating insulin, IGF, and even leptin have also appeared to not just reduce aging, but reverse many signs of aging.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:11 PM

I had read Dr. Delpinho's work, and yes, we read differently. He supports what I have said. From the Harvard Gazette on Delpinho's study 11-28-10; "This [developing cancer] remains a concern because cancer cells turn on telomerase [to lengthen telomeres] to make themselves virtually immortal. DePinho said the risk can be minimized by switching on telomerase only for a matter of days or weeks — which may be brief enough to avoid fueling hidden cancers or cause new ones to develop." The only problem in lengthening telomeres to slow aging over the last 25 year has been its connection with cancer.

1e2735c22808c79753cd0e0674ab631c

(0)

on April 26, 2011
at 06:25 PM

Dr. Rosedale, it seems like the easiest fat source to use on your diet is Olive oil (especially when starting your diet). While most of it's fat is omega-9, about 10% or more can be omega-6. Even if someone were supplementing with omega-3, wouldn't it be difficult to overcome the amount of omega-6 to reach a healthy n:6/n:3 ratio if someone were getting most of their fat from olive oil?

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 26, 2011
at 05:08 PM

You can get Dr Rosedale's book and these two books used at http://www.abebooks.com for cheap.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on April 26, 2011
at 10:56 AM

Can you provide some references for this statement "The evidence that non-fiber carbohydrates cause disease and increased mortality is extremely high". I presume though, we are talking about sugar and not starch here ?

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on April 25, 2011
at 06:27 PM

i read through this earlier this morning and was pretty blown away. didn't understand alot of it(particularly about the pathways) but the fact that both agree on leptin makes me really start to get excited about what stephan guyanet's gonna say in the next couple of months. think we may be heading for a watershed moment on leptin not unlike what gcbc did for insulin.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 25, 2011
at 03:46 PM

The most remarkable exchange...two paleo physician advocates viewing much the same data arriving at different conclusions! The art of medicine and biology blending with the science of medicine and biology.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 25, 2011
at 04:14 AM

The science of fats are also much more complicated so one can only make best guesses. For instance, the ability to rapidly burn a fatty acid is also determined by the position on the glycerol molecule of the triglyceride that it came from, those being in the middle being harder to burn than on the ends. Also, there will virtually be no pure source of a FA as virtually all come from mixtures of safa, mufa, pufa, all of varying chain lengths. What to take away? Avoid non-fiber carbohydrates, excess protein, excess w6, and if you've done that, you've done well. Thanks for insightful comments.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 25, 2011
at 03:50 AM

...and often do with no hesitation or guilt. Your point in #2 is well taken. Most research is done on animals (including humans) adapted to a high carbohydrate diet and did not take place long enough for any significant adaptation to have taken place to a high-fat diet. Furthermore, the majority of “so-called” high-fat diets are still higher in carbs than fat and would not fit my definition of a high-fat diet. Add to that the reason that most of the studies are done is not for acquisition of truth but for marketing and set up accordingly. I feel in general one must look to deeper science. Thx

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 25, 2011
at 03:40 AM

Hi Donat. I agree with most everything you said, since it was prefaced with “forgetting the transition period”. After the transition period, when people are burning fat more effectively, much of the fat one eats will get burned. However, the science that long chain safas are more difficult to burn is fairly solid. Thus, I wouldn't say it's harmful, but might cause some people to feel a bit more fatigued. If I had a choice between shorter chain or longer chain sufas, I'd go for the shorter chain, but I also have no problem at all eating long chain safas over sugar, excess protein or w6 FAs...

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 24, 2011
at 04:28 AM

and no Dr Rosedale.....we humans do not act as mice and rats and c elegans do.......remarkable similiarities.....not even our closests relatives acts to CR as you think they might. That Data is not supportive of your hyperbole either. It may be good for you to sell your book or your supplements but it wont work on a clinician who reads. We can agree on things were footing is firm........but we clearly dont see some things eye to eye. That beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The observer bias clearly at play

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 24, 2011
at 04:23 AM

Seems like Dr Rosedale only wants to focus on the postive of MTor data but not the full effects. Take a look Dr rosedale and read a bit.....http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=rapamycin+adverse+effects&btnG=Search

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 24, 2011
at 04:21 AM

There are some tantalizing hints about how the mTOR pathway may relate to the other theories of aging. For example, there are complex feedback interactions between the pathways involving NF-kappaB, mTOR and PI3K-Akt related to both treatment of cancers and longevity. As far as I can tell, however, discussions of human life extension via mTOR inhibition are at this point conjectural. Based on what I have seen in fact, there have been no experiments so far to try mTOR inhibition for life extension on any mammals, even mice. There are plenty of adverse effects associated with rapamycin too.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 24, 2011
at 04:18 AM

The mTOR pathway integrates signals from nutrients, energy status and growth factors to regulate many processes, including autophagy, ribosome biogenesis and metabolism The mTOR pathway is a central controller of cellular and organism growth that integrates nutrient and hormonal signals, and regulates diverse cellular processes.nhibiting mTOR using rapamycin or derivative drugs offers a promising therapeutic approach for dealing with several diseases and cancer lines. But MTor is not the be all end all for mammalian systems for longevity or even health.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 08:54 PM

Mastering Leptin and the Leptin diet are also good books to read along with Dr Rosedale's work.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 08:53 PM

we live longer and healthier. All cancer lines have shorter telomeres with telomerase immortalizing the cell line. Dr Rosedale clearly shows he does not get that bit of info yet. All is good. He seems like a guy who will evolve once he gets better steeped in telomere biology. His ideas on insulin and leptin are completely spot on in my view. So we are not far off as some of you may believe.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 08:52 PM

any doc that that understands leptin is the key is a good doc to me. We obviously disagree on some points......and we will see soon who is right. Primate studies on CR have been very marginal so far. And they are our closest relative. Human data on CR is basically metabolic snippets to draw inferences. Not good enough. Dr Rosedale predicts future cancer for us paleo folks and I say exactly the opposite......L carnosine in omega three fish and animal proteins have been shown to lengthen telomere out of the Nobel Prize winners labs. I have told this community of the telomere gets longer

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on April 23, 2011
at 07:42 PM

Loved it! Nothing like a good exchange of ideas between two pretty smart people who hold passionate stances. Love Dr. K and am so happy to see Dr. R here. I had some knowledge of Dr. R's work never really took note. His appearances here have caused me to delve deeper and now I believe his ideas may hold the key to my own personal struggles with weight management that over 15 years of regular low carb/paleo has not been able to provide for me. I just bought the book and am excited to read it.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 06:27 PM

I hate self correcting iPad software. I apologize for the spelling errors

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 05:29 PM

Seems to shorten telomeres overtime and why we see elite athletes falter as they age sooner than one would expect. Nick lane believes the reason is because carbohydrates increase "leakiness" at the first cytochrome increasing ROS and then altering mitochondrial biogenesis which takes out our stem cell reserves than causes epigenetic DNA methylation changesnto the remaining cell genome that beats p53 to death and leads to cancer. Since there are no stem cells left to replace the worn out cells DNA it does the only thing left.....apoptosis or makes itself immortal. That is how cancer forms.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 05:25 PM

Triggers of gluconeogenesis. The only way to over ride this in humans is high cortisol. That can come from overtraining or leptin resistance. This is why I mentioned leptin signal ing has to be intact for the above circumstances to be true. Overtraining can still turn on gluconeogenesis even in a leptin sensitive person who is fit.....butnis over met conning! Matt Lalonde is an expert in this area and that is why he has boundaries for paleo and crossfit. Anthony colpo is a performance glycolytic guru and he obviously sees paleo limits sooner. What colpo won't admit is that performance

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 05:20 PM

The process of recommending changing slowly to lct sat fat burning is perfectly fine but there is no evidence that humans can't burn lct sat fat right away when they are in ketosis. there is confounding data that monounsaturated fats cause higher levels of ALE formation from beta oxidation that is not seen in then beta oxidation of lct or MCT FFA. That point is conveniently not discussed in many circles but is alsona factor. I honestly don't believe the fat source is critical once your ketototic and leptin sensitive centrally and peripherally. Ketosis shuts down metabolically derived

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 05:13 PM

Similar biochemical reactions but thenresults do not translate phill genetically. Moreover no human starvation studies showed any increase in longevity. Pure hypothesis now......but requires study no doubt

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 05:11 PM

http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2009/11/human-calorie-restriction-studies-continue-apace.php

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:54 PM

Decrease leakinese and stop autophagy, mitochondrial biogenesis and mitosis when food is not avaailable. It's a survival mode only and can't be sustained. It's never been shown to be effective in humans. We are not rodents or yeast

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:52 PM

CR has never been shown to increase longevity. So to make them mental jump from othernphylogenetic classes to us is at best speculation but does require us to examine it. Here is a case in point. We all know longer telomeres confer health and longevity and we now know that l -Carnosine found predominately in animal proteins alone can stop telomere shortening from the Nobel prize winners lab at UCSF. So if protein substrates show telomere lengthening how can CR help humans. UCSF believes it can't and many believe cr is an adaptive short term protective meAsure to slow ros at cytochrome one

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:45 PM

Itself is biologically the most complex area of molecular biology we have found. There is not one path. There are many. The key to understand how to protect the genome and prevent those epigenetic responses.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:43 PM

Dexter every cancer cell line ever found has short telomeres but with telomerase activate to immortalized the cell. Dr rose dale makes an unsupported jump that because telomerase activation does this in cancer it may be bad to do with a normal signal ing genome and pefect stem cell populations withnlow ros and no abnormal DNA methylation problem or acetylation of histone proteins from mitochondrial signal ing. I reject that. Cancer is evolution at work. Cancer is abnormal signal ing that results in abnormal epigenetic modifications of our genome. The are many ways to cause this signal ing

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:37 PM

Still respect your work and dedication. But our interpretations of what we have read differ. We do however seem to be very like minded on leptin. I think it is our biggest problem currently in our country. I think instead of sparring we need to continue to discuss what we think observations and research shows to work through the problems of energy metabolism regulation and signal ing errors and protection of the genome. To me this is paramount

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:34 PM

By mike west and dr delphino at Harvard really go completely against your comments. I don't believe that any data you presented as truths trumps there findings in the last six months. Delphino just reversed aging in mice for the first time ever in human history. You need to read his work. Protein in an healthy person confers no risk. You seem to believe because cr extends lifespan it somehow implicates protein is a problem. Cr has never been shown to do much in humans. It's a great issue for us to study but to say high protein kills is scientific hyperbole based upon what we know now

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:28 PM

There is no study showIng lengthening telomere length causes cancer. Infect recent suffuse have put telomerase inhibitors with multiple cancer lines and not one line has transformed. To get the immortality effect seen in cancer seem to require all the defective signaling between the mitochondria and DNA and chaperone proteins. Multiple pathways collide including mTor which you believe based upon your above comments to be paramount. Studies have shown mTor can be effectively affected by chemicals to stave off apoptosis and cancer generation. Cur cumin is one of many. The studies being don

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 23, 2011
at 10:26 AM

No..I don't care if you do not have any carbs.. If you do they should be mostly fiber as fiber won't convert into glucose.. Thanks.

1e2735c22808c79753cd0e0674ab631c

(0)

on April 23, 2011
at 03:29 AM

Dr. Rosedale, in "Insulin and Its Metabolic Effects" you recommend getting around 20% of calories from fibrous carbs. For a 2000 kcal diet this would be 12 to 13 cups of veggies a day. Is this correct?

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 22, 2011
at 09:00 PM

Also, as an aside, it has been shown that during CR there is a selective increase in saturation of cell membranes, presumably to ward off peroxidation and enhance longevity. I very much appreciate your support and pursuit of knowledge. Please continue with your thoughtful questions that helps to spread that knowledge on this site and others..

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 22, 2011
at 08:54 PM

...Thus, my recommendation, especially to help ward off fatigue that people experience when shifting from high carbohydrates to high-fat, is that it is best to derive most of the fat in one's diet from monounsaturated and medium chain saturated fats as the ideal, and the longer chain saturated fats are okay especially after the first several months when one is more adept at burning them. Also, from a practical standpoint and to add variety longer chain saturated fats such as in the form of cheese is fine long-term.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 22, 2011
at 08:47 PM

Thank you Donat and sorry for the confusion. When I wrote that book I had taken s much softer stand on saturated fat, and had written a section about coconut oil and MCTs, and explained that all saturated fats are not the same. This unfortunately was left on the cutting room floor, as HarperCollins thought that this would be too confusing for the general public and perhaps they are right. However, it remains correct that most animal sources of saturated fat in this day and age originally arose from carbohydrates (grain feeding),are meant to be stored, and are more difficult to burn...

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on April 22, 2011
at 08:18 PM

almonds have a good oils as well. I hate to have my salads dripping with oil too, but it is amazing how quickly a little here and there all adds up.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on April 22, 2011
at 08:16 PM

ha, nice Tartare.. It is a great debate and I love that Dr. Rosedale is sharing his research.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 22, 2011
at 05:25 AM

Coconut oil for 54 oz Nutiva Brand for $21 from http://www.vitacost.com Right now order $50 worth of products and get free shipping. Usually shipping is $4.99 Wife and I use about 6 containers a year.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 22, 2011
at 05:22 AM

Panfry your eggs in coconut oil and eat some bacon on the med rare side. Each tablespoon of coconut oil has 117 cals. Eat avocados and if a member of Costco, they have a premade guacomole for about 7 bucks that contains about 15 Hass avocados. No preservatives and no sugar. Cook your liver and beef in coconut oil. For salads, I use Good Seasons Italian Packets in their hourglass shaped shaker. You add the olive oil and vinegar with the packet. Packet does have a little tiny bit of sugar and guar gum with the seasonings...but it is good. I mix 1/2 balsamic and 1/2 ordinary vinegar.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on April 22, 2011
at 01:04 AM

He suggests mono...olive oil, macadamia, nuts, avacados....in the first period. It is diff for everyone. Best are coconut oil and coconut butter and ghee or clarified butter. They are mainly MCTs and go directly into the mitochondria where they are utiliezed for fuel. After you are an efficient fat burner. add back in the SAT fat.

8e3782b68e033763485472f414f507a5

(2433)

on April 22, 2011
at 12:57 AM

Great discussion folks.

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 22, 2011
at 12:07 AM

What kind of mono fats does he suggest? I am having issues losing after a month of paleo eating (mostly saturated fat) so maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 22, 2011
at 12:05 AM

yes, sounds very good Paul. You should most definitely check out those restaurants. The Bristol's menu changes daily- it should be online. DO try the bone marrow. I shed a tear thinking about how I miss it. http://www.thebristolchicago.com/ Old Town Social http://www.oldtownsocial.com is part bar so i hear certain nights its uber crowded. We always went early. food is really good. Both places should be able to tell you exactly whats in the food -thechefs are usually around. Paramount Room is a full on bar with a small but very good wine list. the least paleo of the 3, but have bison tartare!

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 21, 2011
at 11:29 PM

to limit it. Sound good? Also, speaking of recommendations, I had never heard of those three Chicago restaurants you listed here: http://paleohacks.com/questions/31230/do-you-have-a-dinevore-list-of-the-best-paleo-restaurants-in-your-area/31261#31261 Will check them out.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 21, 2011
at 11:25 PM

@Tartare, yes on further reflection I think you're right. Or at least you're right to say "my logic was a stretch." I think I was right, technically speaking, that there is that chain of implications there, but in the end it's a bit tenuous and not really relevant. So maybe you and I can agree on these (and Dr. R also?): i. Dr. Rosedale definitely suggests limiting saturated fat in the transition to high-fat eating. ii. After the transition, more saturated fat may be eaten. If it is not explicitly recommended to go out of your way to eat it, it is also not explicitly recommended [Continued]

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 21, 2011
at 11:19 PM

yeah, this one is interesting "food for thought" ...sorry, couldn't help it.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 21, 2011
at 10:18 PM

much trouble to calling it a "recommendation". I don't see a flat out recommendation of saturated fat in his argument to begin with. He seems to approach it with trepidation. Whether I agree with this or not personally is another matter, but I think you logic was a stretch. That said, there are points here which could benefit from clarification.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 21, 2011
at 10:15 PM

@WCC Paul :I see your argument, though this was plenty clarification for me upon initial reading "The fat in grain-fed animals is really second generation carbohydrates. It has been known for hundreds of years that feeding grain to animals makes them fat. That is why cattle go to feed lots before they are sold— to make them fat as fast as possible. That is also what grain feeding does to us!" Additionally, even with your logic, I feel as though you make a jump from his argument, which seems to be that once fat burning is optimized a person can handle a *some* more saturated fat without too

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 10:00 PM

Also, though slowing aging is associated with a reduction in telomere shortening, it does not necessarily follow that reducing telomere shortening will slow aging. This has not been shown.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 09:51 PM

There was also a very interesting article linking leptin to telomere length. If I have time later I'll try to get you references.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 09:50 PM

Keeping increased telomere length by producing telomerase is how cancer cells stay cancer cells. A number of companies are researching telomerase inhibitors as a means to combat cancer. Therefore, increasing telomere length is a two edged sword. In certain cells we would like longer telomeres (such as immune cells) but in other cells this would be disadvantageous secondary to cancer. Playing with telomere length would have to be finely orchestrated in time and place and we're nowhere close to being able to do that.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 08:39 PM

Oh, and by the way, increasing length of telomeres increases risk of cancer also..

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 08:16 PM

Perhaps, Dr. K, you would prefer to wait 20 years to find a very high incidence of cancer in high protein following paleo hackers that current science is powerfully trying to tell us will happen. I, on the other hand, would prefer to listen and prevent that now..

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 08:02 PM

mTOR answers to essential amino acids. They raise it and raising mTOR has been shown by the most renowned researchers to accelerate aging. In no way does FOXO, PCGa, PPARs "trump" this. Where did you get that? You might fool people who don't know, or haven't heard of, these pathways, but that won't work with me..

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 07:54 PM

Letter to the editor NY Times continued; "Until medical 'science' begins to recognize the difference between symptoms and disease we will continue to see results such as this and the recent Vytorin (Enhance) cholesterol-lowering study, where the treatment itself becomes the disease. Ron Rosedale 
Denver, Feb. 9, 2008 The writer is a medical doctor."

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 07:52 PM

As far as the ACCORD study goes, they Are normal people that doctors are killing. My letter to the editor published in the NY Times follows; "To the Editor: The results of the Accord study are not surprising. Diabetes is not a disease of blood sugar; it is a disease of faulty hormonal signaling, particularly insulin and leptin. The increased mortality seen in the diabetics in this study is not from lowering the sugar, but from the treatment that neglects and often worsens the underlying cause of insulin resistance."

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 07:34 PM

Nothing can ever be proven, so saying there is no proof is meaningless. However, the evidence is extremely strong that feeding high protein negates beneficial effects of caloric restriction, when we ought to be trying to mimic it, that I have shown can be done following a lower protein, higher fat diet. Spikes in AA increase IGFs and increased IGFs shorten lifespan. See the work of Andrejz Bartke...and Insulin as a strong cousin stimulating IGF receptors. I have done more than opened biochemistry textbooks...I have read and understood them..

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 07:21 PM

A type II diabetic is considered an excellent model for accelerated aging. Last I heard "paleo hackers" were also animals from planet Earth following the same basic physiology including the biology of aging as has been shown in yeast, worms, flies, and rodents i.e. conserved in all animal life..including paleo hackers. There is no literature to show that "the mTOR problem" will go away by taking resvertrol, CoQ10, lipoic acid, or any supplements. Resvertrol would have to be taken in ridiculous amounts for any decent effect and works on the sirtuin system, not the mTOR system.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 21, 2011
at 05:35 PM

@Tartare: well insofar as Dr. Rosedale says that once you do get better at burning fat then you can eat more saturated fats, and insofar as grain-fed ruminants are listed as a source of saturated fats, then this is, **indirectly**, a sanctioning of grain-fed ruminants. Like I said, it *seems like* a recommendation to eat grain-fed. Clarification was required, and it looks like we got it.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 21, 2011
at 05:32 PM

the rise in those eat a ton of BCCA is from cortisol not from the AA metabolism. Radiolabeling studies show this. And paleo hackers do have to worry about high cortisol levels if they met con and eat strict paleo. It can cause adrenal fatigue in them. The treatment is however rather simple.....eat carbs post work out. Different reason for the spike. This is why you must measure insulin, cortisol, rT3 and HBa1C all at the same time. Paleo hackers will have isolated cortisol elevation post work out and it kills performance and sleep and can decrease testosterone and decrease muscle mass

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 21, 2011
at 05:28 PM

The spike from AA are not as big or sustained and the by products of ketosis completely negate the insulin release Dr Rosedale. You need to open a biochemistry book again on that. I hear this all the time from docs but this does not happen in patients who have good feedback control. ACCORD tells us DM are not normal and die 6 yrs early no matter what we do pharmacologically. Dr Fasano showed that a paleo diet does reverse their metaobolic issue within two weeks. mTor answers to mitochondrial signaling and activation of the PPAR. FOXO and PGC alpha also trump mTor.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 21, 2011
at 05:24 PM

again a type two diabetic is different than a regualr paleo hacker....that is where I draw a distinct line. I also happen to beleive that a paleo diet is best long term for longevity because of its effects on telomere shortening. That data is hitting our shores now. The mTor problem is on that we help in type two's with heavy use of resveratrol PQQ nd R alpha lipoic acid and high Co Enz Q levels. The NIH is currently doing a trial on resveratrol and type two DM as I am sure you are aware. My point is that there is zero proof in a healthy human that high proteins diets are detrimental.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 21, 2011
at 06:36 AM

i assume this controversy stems from varying degrees of need based on circumstance. How would a person correctly address this?

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 21, 2011
at 06:34 AM

i did feel some frustration though at "The evidence that excess protein is equally harmful is also very robust. The only controversial point would be the definition of excess."

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 06:33 AM

tartare; right...and that moderation of protein intake IS desirable. Thanks.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 21, 2011
at 06:16 AM

I didn't see this as a recommendation to eat grain fed ruminants, in fact I read it as exactly the opposite! What I took away from this was a hypothesis that mcts are the optimal transitional fuel for becoming a fat burner. And that moderate protein intake could be desirable.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 21, 2011
at 05:43 AM

A very interesting post, thank you. Though you'll probably get some resistance from this crowd to what seems like a recommendation to eat grain-fed ruminants.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 03:23 AM

The most current and commonly accepted explanation for the biochemical/genetic effects of caloric restriction has to do with minimizing mTOR that is markedly and specifically increased by certain amino acids from protein. mTOR was discovered secondary to its relationship with cancer; lowering mTOR, a profoundly mitogenic pathway, significantly reducing both the risk and progression of cancer. These studies have been widely scrutinized and are among the most robust in the biology of aging. It is also well known that AAs from protein also raise insulin, and in excess convert to glucose.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on April 21, 2011
at 03:20 AM

I also can't wait to see some Dr. K blog posts on the counter-argument. Somebody needs to take the other side and I don't see any other high protein advocates doing it.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on April 21, 2011
at 03:20 AM

Dr. Rosedale, what about gelatin? It has very little methionine or tryptophan, would that be an acceptable variation on your diet? Some people just seem to feel better with more protein and this one strikes me as a good compromise.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 03:06 AM

Thank you. However I must strongly disagree with your stance, especially pertaining to protein. There is ample and extremely robust science suggesting that limiting protein slows biological aging and its associated chronic diseases. I cannot optimize blood sugars in my severely diabetic patients on a high-protein diet. They can be improved, but not near as much as on my higher-fat, lower protein, low-carb diet. Please see the PowerPoint that I posted in my prior answer and then comment; http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2010/05/07/ron-rosedale-protein-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/

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18 Answers

22
5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 20, 2011
at 11:53 PM

An Answer to Saturated and Other Fats and Relation to Health

First of all, when I say that I want you to eat fat, the "you" is your cells. I want your cells to eat fat. If you have excess body fat, especially visceral fat, we want your cells to eat it. If they are allowed to eat your stored fat, you need not put so much fat in your mouth, but "you" are still eating a high-fat diet. Once again, whether or not you are allowed to eat your stored fat depends on significant metabolic hormones, mainly proper leptin function.?? I want you to burn fat as fuel as opposed to glucose, whether it comes from immediate dietary intake or whether it comes from oxidation of stored fats.?? Maintaining proper insulin and leptin activity will allow you to burn fat.?? Thus it is imperative that non-fiber carbohydrates be kept to a minimum.?? When you are burning stored fat you are eating and hunger will be minimized.

As far as what type of fats to eat (orally when hungry) especially pertaining to saturated fat and why, this is summarized on pages 21 and 64 of The Rosedale Diet ?? HarperCollins

p. 64?? Saturated Fat.??

"This fat is primarily found in grain-fed animals, including meat, lamb, and dairy products from grain-fed animals (milk, cheese, lard, and butter) and to a lesser extent, poultry and fish. Although derived from plants, coconut oil is also high in saturated fat, but of a different kind, that may even have health benefits.

Why are grain-fed animals so high in saturated fat? Animals, like us, turn the grain that they eat into sugar, and then into saturated fat. The fat in grain-fed animals is really second generation carbohydrates. It has been known for hundreds of years that feeding grain to animals makes them fat. That is why cattle go to feed lots before they are sold??? to make them fat as fast as possible. That is also what grain feeding does to us!

Unlike polyunsaturated fat, saturated fat tends to be hard at room temperature. Studies have suggested that a diet high in saturated fat may promote heart disease and insulin resistance. This is true, although some types of polyunsaturated fat can be just as bad???even worse. Saturated fat does have one advantage over polyunsaturated fats, even the good fats: It is not easily oxidized and therefore does not promote free radical production in the body. I still don???t advise people to eat a huge amount of saturated fat???not if you want to lose fat. Most of the fat stored in your body is saturated fat, and, in general, it is the toughest fat to burn. If you are looking to shed pounds, it is best to limit (not eliminate) your intake of saturated fat."

p. 21??

"Once you become a good fat burner, you can also eat a little more saturated fat. The kind of fat you eat becomes less important because you are able to burn it off more easily."

The evidence linking saturated fat to heart disease, however, is arguable and a caveat of all of these studies is that they are done almost universally on people eating a high carbohydrate diet that prevents the proper burning of fat. The editors at HarperCollins cut this section because they thought it would create too much confusion and would be too controversial. However, for many years I have only significantly limited saturated fats for the first several months for the reasons given above and below. Recognize please that when we are talking about the amount of saturated fat to eat we are fine tuning the much more important premise of limiting non-fiber carbs and avoiding excess protein.

Please note that I do say why I limit saturated fat, at least initially (and have for decades).?? While I do respect his comments, Donat makes the same mistake that many before have made; that because much of what I have said (and why) has generally been original, contrary to both conventional and so-called alternative health, and thus a lone voice in the wind, people assume I must not know what I'm talking about.?? I was told this all-to-often almost 20 years ago when I was first to extensively talk the world over about the metabolic effects of insulin.?? One of these talks, ???Insulin and its Metabolic Effects???, was recorded by a participant, transcribed, and put on the Internet and became widely read and was, and still is, paramount in popularizing such concepts as insulin resistance and its sequelae, glycation, AGE's, low carbohydrate dieting, etc. Many people read this, and based books on these concepts over the years. I was also the first to talk and teach about the connection between leptin, leptin resistance, and mTOR and their relationship supporting a high-fat, low carbohydrate, and notably not a high-protein but at most, moderate protein diet.?? I believe that 15 years ago I was the first to use, very effectively I might add, a high-fat, very low carbohydrate diet to treat diabetes and cardiovascular disease, and opened the first ???metabolic medicine??? clinic in the country in Asheville, North Carolina and later in Boulder, Co with the Eades. I have long warned about the ill advised and detrimental health effects of fructose and the high intake of calcium that is recommended for osteoporosis that after 15 years is finally getting proper verification.??

I'm not as well-known as perhaps some of my peers as I did not seek the spotlight, but freely shared my information in talks and writings with academic associates, many of whom subsequently took the information as their own and popularized it with various degrees of accuracy or inaccuracy (with the notable exception of Joe Mercola who has been very generous with his references to me, and a few others) . ??

Whatever I say is based on science generally much deeper than you could imagine. In this case, it's fairly straightforward and elementary, though not widely known and appreciated. Saturated fat is among the least readily oxidizable fat. That's good if one is referring to rancidity (in the body and out) but not so good if you want to oxidize it as fuel.?? The longer the fatty acid chain, and the more saturated the fatty acid is, in general the harder it is to burn.?? As one becomes more adept at burning fat, this become somewhat, but not entirely, less relevant.?? I have listed a few of the early and seminal references with quotes at the end.

MCTs (high in coconut oil and ghee) are the best source of fuel. Even though they are saturated, they are mostly medium chain length and can get straight into mitochondria for oxidation without needing prior shortening in peroxisomes. The monounsaturated fats found in avocados, olive oil, and nuts are also readily burned and fairly stable. Though necessary in limited quantities and readily obtained, w6 oils, found in most vegetable oils, are virtually toxic in excess.?? Omega 3 oils are generally deficient in people's diet and should normally be supplemented. Proper dose is fairly important as excess may be detrimental, 1-2 teaspoons/d for long-term use generally being sufficient. ??

The evidence that non-fiber carbohydrates cause disease and increased mortality is extremely high. The minimum daily requirement is zero. The evidence that excess protein is equally harmful is also very robust. The only controversial point would be the definition of excess. One of the PowerPoints that I posted in my last answer pertains to this. Questions pertaining to oils and fats is, to me, where the vast majority of research in nutritional science should concentrate, though I believe even here the answers in general are becoming clear.

A few of many references:

Biochem. J. (1987) 247, 531-535 (printed in Great Britain) 531 Rolf HOVIK and Harald OSMUNDSEN Peroxisomal B-oxidation of long-chain fatty acids possessing different extents of unsaturation.

"From these results it is immediately apparent that rates of peroxisomal B-oxidation increase with increasing extent of unsaturation of the carbon chain."

British Journal of Nutrition (1987), 57, 383-393 J. L EYTON, P .J. DRURY AND M . A . CRAWFORD Differential oxidation of saturated and unsaturated fatty acids in vivo in the rat.

"In comparing the oxidation of saturated and unsaturated fatty acids, [P4C] linoleic acid [1-14C] a-linolenic acid and [P4C] 0Ieic acid were oxidized at a significantly faster rate than [1-14C] stearic acid and [1-14C] palmitic acid at 24 h (P < 0'01)."

J. Lipid Res. 1982: 23 243-256. Bremer,J., and K. R. Norum. Metabolism of very long-chain monounsaturated fatty acids (22:l) and the adaptation to their presence in the diet.

"Unadapted rats and other animal species have a limited capacity to metabolize monounsaturated fatty acids with 22 carbons (22:l). Excess amounts in the diet of fats containing these fatty acids cause a transient accumulation (lipidosis) of triacylglycerol in the heart and other tissues..." "Upon continued feeding of diets with 22:l fatty acids, an adaptation takes place and the lipidosis disappears."

British Journal of Nutrition (2000), 83, Suppl. 1, S85???S90 Len H. Storlien Diet composition and insulin action in animal models

"Intake of saturated fats is strongly linked to development of obesity and insulin resistance, while that of polyunsaturated fats (PUFAs) is not. This is consistent with observations that saturated fats are poorly oxidized for energy and thus readily stored, are poorly mobilized by lipolytic stimuli, impair membrane function, and increase the expression of genes associated with adipocyte profileration (making their own home)"

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 21, 2011
at 06:36 AM

i assume this controversy stems from varying degrees of need based on circumstance. How would a person correctly address this?

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 21, 2011
at 06:16 AM

I didn't see this as a recommendation to eat grain fed ruminants, in fact I read it as exactly the opposite! What I took away from this was a hypothesis that mcts are the optimal transitional fuel for becoming a fat burner. And that moderate protein intake could be desirable.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 21, 2011
at 05:35 PM

@Tartare: well insofar as Dr. Rosedale says that once you do get better at burning fat then you can eat more saturated fats, and insofar as grain-fed ruminants are listed as a source of saturated fats, then this is, **indirectly**, a sanctioning of grain-fed ruminants. Like I said, it *seems like* a recommendation to eat grain-fed. Clarification was required, and it looks like we got it.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 21, 2011
at 10:18 PM

much trouble to calling it a "recommendation". I don't see a flat out recommendation of saturated fat in his argument to begin with. He seems to approach it with trepidation. Whether I agree with this or not personally is another matter, but I think you logic was a stretch. That said, there are points here which could benefit from clarification.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 06:33 AM

tartare; right...and that moderation of protein intake IS desirable. Thanks.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 21, 2011
at 05:43 AM

A very interesting post, thank you. Though you'll probably get some resistance from this crowd to what seems like a recommendation to eat grain-fed ruminants.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 22, 2011
at 12:05 AM

yes, sounds very good Paul. You should most definitely check out those restaurants. The Bristol's menu changes daily- it should be online. DO try the bone marrow. I shed a tear thinking about how I miss it. http://www.thebristolchicago.com/ Old Town Social http://www.oldtownsocial.com is part bar so i hear certain nights its uber crowded. We always went early. food is really good. Both places should be able to tell you exactly whats in the food -thechefs are usually around. Paramount Room is a full on bar with a small but very good wine list. the least paleo of the 3, but have bison tartare!

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 21, 2011
at 11:25 PM

@Tartare, yes on further reflection I think you're right. Or at least you're right to say "my logic was a stretch." I think I was right, technically speaking, that there is that chain of implications there, but in the end it's a bit tenuous and not really relevant. So maybe you and I can agree on these (and Dr. R also?): i. Dr. Rosedale definitely suggests limiting saturated fat in the transition to high-fat eating. ii. After the transition, more saturated fat may be eaten. If it is not explicitly recommended to go out of your way to eat it, it is also not explicitly recommended [Continued]

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 21, 2011
at 06:34 AM

i did feel some frustration though at "The evidence that excess protein is equally harmful is also very robust. The only controversial point would be the definition of excess."

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on April 21, 2011
at 11:29 PM

to limit it. Sound good? Also, speaking of recommendations, I had never heard of those three Chicago restaurants you listed here: http://paleohacks.com/questions/31230/do-you-have-a-dinevore-list-of-the-best-paleo-restaurants-in-your-area/31261#31261 Will check them out.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 21, 2011
at 10:15 PM

@WCC Paul :I see your argument, though this was plenty clarification for me upon initial reading "The fat in grain-fed animals is really second generation carbohydrates. It has been known for hundreds of years that feeding grain to animals makes them fat. That is why cattle go to feed lots before they are sold— to make them fat as fast as possible. That is also what grain feeding does to us!" Additionally, even with your logic, I feel as though you make a jump from his argument, which seems to be that once fat burning is optimized a person can handle a *some* more saturated fat without too

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on April 26, 2011
at 10:56 AM

Can you provide some references for this statement "The evidence that non-fiber carbohydrates cause disease and increased mortality is extremely high". I presume though, we are talking about sugar and not starch here ?

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 10:58 PM

Starch is broken down into sugars very quickly, starting in your mouth. What your cells end up eating when you eat starch is sugar. Sugar glycates, forms AGE's, increases insulin, increases leptin, accelerates aging, causes insulin resistance and leptin resistance, causing disease and accelerated rate of aging. References for this are so numerous I wouldn't know where to begin. Perhaps reading my book might get you started.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:20 PM

I find this hard to swallow when the longest living and healthiest cultures seem to be starch heavy (ie Kitavans, okiniwana, etc

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 20, 2011
at 11:16 PM

In the most comprehensive study pertaining to the Okinawan diet and longevity entitled, "Caloric Restriction, the Traditional Okinawan Diet, and Healthy Aging" published in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, the following was found; “Findings include low caloric intake and negative energy balance at younger ages, little weight gain with age, life-long low BMI...and survival patterns consistent with extended mean and maximum life span." The study concluded…

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 20, 2011
at 11:15 PM

There are many speculations of why Okinawans have a high number of centenarians. It does appear that they eat a low retain calorie diet. What Nick Lane has said is the following,p 275 “Oxygen”, “based on a 25 year study, the book [The Okinawa Way written by a Japanese cardiologist] argues that the secret of the Okinawans... goes beyond genes, diet, and exercise to their relaxed lifestyle and low level of stress. The Okinawans have a word for it, "tege", which means 'half-done': forget timetables, forget finishing today things that can be done tomorrow. I suspect they are probably right.”

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 20, 2011
at 11:14 PM

I wrote a few comments about this in a thread to a question relating to “carbohydrates and longevity” on August 27, 2011. You may wish to go there though I will also answer here in several parts; As far as the Okinawans and other groups... we must distinguish between increasing maximal lifespan that CR can do and I believe my diet also can do, and increasing average lifespan. Increasing average lifespan is nice but not near as powerful as extending youth and increasing maximum lifespan.. For that there are no human counterparts; only science as revealed in animal studies.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 20, 2011
at 11:16 PM

"This study [Caloric Restriction, the Traditional Okinawan Diet, and Healthy Aging] lends epidemiologic support for phenotypic benefits of CR in humans and is consistent with the well-known literature on animals with regard to CR phenotypes and healthy aging."... I have not seen a breakdown of the calories eaten, but it's known that they eat more fish and fibrous vegetables and lower calories. Simple logic could conclude that they eat fewer non-fiber carbohydrates, which, along with reduced stress, may account for their increased average lifespan

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 20, 2011
at 11:20 PM

Though my knowledge of the Kitavans is less, I believe much the same applies to them, and there are similar myths based on poor science and falsities that is being written about them that unfortunately is getting much unwarranted publicity.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on September 20, 2011
at 11:15 PM

That being said, the Okinawans eat considerably more fish than other groups and a higher percentage of carbohydrates as vegetables i.e. fiber as opposed to starches. Most of the fiber gets excreted, so Okinawans are likely relatively calorie restricted. Also, overindulging in food among Okinawans is very frowned upon. I don't know much about the Kitivans but I suspect much the same applies.

8
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 21, 2011
at 02:31 AM

I have read a lot of your work and I commend you on your stance on leptin. I fully agree with your assertions based upon the data out there and I have followed leptin data since 1995 in my own field.

But I don't buy your stance on protein at all because most of the studies are flawed or done with built in biases. Moreover, I have to say the data on Sat fats is also very controversial because the science is always done badly. So making any definite statement on them is tough. I get enough flak here for my neutral response on them. I truly believe that with protein and Sat fats it depends who is their bed fellow. If you have a low insulin environment and a low cortisol environment and good leptin signaling there is "Zero" data out their vilifying protein or Sat fat. And this community eats to a fault to generate that exact environment. The only thing the newbies may not be is leptin sensitive when they begin but that can flip quick within 4-8 weeks if the follow strict paleo recs.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on April 21, 2011
at 03:20 AM

Dr. Rosedale, what about gelatin? It has very little methionine or tryptophan, would that be an acceptable variation on your diet? Some people just seem to feel better with more protein and this one strikes me as a good compromise.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 03:23 AM

The most current and commonly accepted explanation for the biochemical/genetic effects of caloric restriction has to do with minimizing mTOR that is markedly and specifically increased by certain amino acids from protein. mTOR was discovered secondary to its relationship with cancer; lowering mTOR, a profoundly mitogenic pathway, significantly reducing both the risk and progression of cancer. These studies have been widely scrutinized and are among the most robust in the biology of aging. It is also well known that AAs from protein also raise insulin, and in excess convert to glucose.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 07:52 PM

As far as the ACCORD study goes, they Are normal people that doctors are killing. My letter to the editor published in the NY Times follows; "To the Editor: The results of the Accord study are not surprising. Diabetes is not a disease of blood sugar; it is a disease of faulty hormonal signaling, particularly insulin and leptin. The increased mortality seen in the diabetics in this study is not from lowering the sugar, but from the treatment that neglects and often worsens the underlying cause of insulin resistance."

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 07:34 PM

Nothing can ever be proven, so saying there is no proof is meaningless. However, the evidence is extremely strong that feeding high protein negates beneficial effects of caloric restriction, when we ought to be trying to mimic it, that I have shown can be done following a lower protein, higher fat diet. Spikes in AA increase IGFs and increased IGFs shorten lifespan. See the work of Andrejz Bartke...and Insulin as a strong cousin stimulating IGF receptors. I have done more than opened biochemistry textbooks...I have read and understood them..

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 03:06 AM

Thank you. However I must strongly disagree with your stance, especially pertaining to protein. There is ample and extremely robust science suggesting that limiting protein slows biological aging and its associated chronic diseases. I cannot optimize blood sugars in my severely diabetic patients on a high-protein diet. They can be improved, but not near as much as on my higher-fat, lower protein, low-carb diet. Please see the PowerPoint that I posted in my prior answer and then comment; http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2010/05/07/ron-rosedale-protein-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Dr Rosedale, Can you point me to studies that identifies increasing telomere length increases the risk of cancer. And can you point me to a protocal that is successful in lengthening telomeres? All I can find are studies that associates shortened telemeres with cancer, diabetes, etc. Also, all I can find are commercial enterprises that have located a molecule from the Astragalus root that may be successful in lengthening telomeres..or at least slow up the shortening process.

8e3782b68e033763485472f414f507a5

(2433)

on April 22, 2011
at 12:57 AM

Great discussion folks.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:37 PM

Still respect your work and dedication. But our interpretations of what we have read differ. We do however seem to be very like minded on leptin. I think it is our biggest problem currently in our country. I think instead of sparring we need to continue to discuss what we think observations and research shows to work through the problems of energy metabolism regulation and signal ing errors and protection of the genome. To me this is paramount

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 21, 2011
at 05:24 PM

again a type two diabetic is different than a regualr paleo hacker....that is where I draw a distinct line. I also happen to beleive that a paleo diet is best long term for longevity because of its effects on telomere shortening. That data is hitting our shores now. The mTor problem is on that we help in type two's with heavy use of resveratrol PQQ nd R alpha lipoic acid and high Co Enz Q levels. The NIH is currently doing a trial on resveratrol and type two DM as I am sure you are aware. My point is that there is zero proof in a healthy human that high proteins diets are detrimental.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 24, 2011
at 04:21 AM

There are some tantalizing hints about how the mTOR pathway may relate to the other theories of aging. For example, there are complex feedback interactions between the pathways involving NF-kappaB, mTOR and PI3K-Akt related to both treatment of cancers and longevity. As far as I can tell, however, discussions of human life extension via mTOR inhibition are at this point conjectural. Based on what I have seen in fact, there have been no experiments so far to try mTOR inhibition for life extension on any mammals, even mice. There are plenty of adverse effects associated with rapamycin too.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on April 21, 2011
at 03:20 AM

I also can't wait to see some Dr. K blog posts on the counter-argument. Somebody needs to take the other side and I don't see any other high protein advocates doing it.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 09:50 PM

Keeping increased telomere length by producing telomerase is how cancer cells stay cancer cells. A number of companies are researching telomerase inhibitors as a means to combat cancer. Therefore, increasing telomere length is a two edged sword. In certain cells we would like longer telomeres (such as immune cells) but in other cells this would be disadvantageous secondary to cancer. Playing with telomere length would have to be finely orchestrated in time and place and we're nowhere close to being able to do that.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 07:54 PM

Letter to the editor NY Times continued; "Until medical 'science' begins to recognize the difference between symptoms and disease we will continue to see results such as this and the recent Vytorin (Enhance) cholesterol-lowering study, where the treatment itself becomes the disease. Ron Rosedale 
Denver, Feb. 9, 2008 The writer is a medical doctor."

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 08:39 PM

Oh, and by the way, increasing length of telomeres increases risk of cancer also..

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 05:13 PM

Similar biochemical reactions but thenresults do not translate phill genetically. Moreover no human starvation studies showed any increase in longevity. Pure hypothesis now......but requires study no doubt

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 06:27 PM

I hate self correcting iPad software. I apologize for the spelling errors

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 21, 2011
at 05:32 PM

the rise in those eat a ton of BCCA is from cortisol not from the AA metabolism. Radiolabeling studies show this. And paleo hackers do have to worry about high cortisol levels if they met con and eat strict paleo. It can cause adrenal fatigue in them. The treatment is however rather simple.....eat carbs post work out. Different reason for the spike. This is why you must measure insulin, cortisol, rT3 and HBa1C all at the same time. Paleo hackers will have isolated cortisol elevation post work out and it kills performance and sleep and can decrease testosterone and decrease muscle mass

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 08:16 PM

Perhaps, Dr. K, you would prefer to wait 20 years to find a very high incidence of cancer in high protein following paleo hackers that current science is powerfully trying to tell us will happen. I, on the other hand, would prefer to listen and prevent that now..

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 10:00 PM

Also, though slowing aging is associated with a reduction in telomere shortening, it does not necessarily follow that reducing telomere shortening will slow aging. This has not been shown.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 21, 2011
at 05:28 PM

The spike from AA are not as big or sustained and the by products of ketosis completely negate the insulin release Dr Rosedale. You need to open a biochemistry book again on that. I hear this all the time from docs but this does not happen in patients who have good feedback control. ACCORD tells us DM are not normal and die 6 yrs early no matter what we do pharmacologically. Dr Fasano showed that a paleo diet does reverse their metaobolic issue within two weeks. mTor answers to mitochondrial signaling and activation of the PPAR. FOXO and PGC alpha also trump mTor.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 08:02 PM

mTOR answers to essential amino acids. They raise it and raising mTOR has been shown by the most renowned researchers to accelerate aging. In no way does FOXO, PCGa, PPARs "trump" this. Where did you get that? You might fool people who don't know, or haven't heard of, these pathways, but that won't work with me..

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 05:11 PM

http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2009/11/human-calorie-restriction-studies-continue-apace.php

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 07:21 PM

A type II diabetic is considered an excellent model for accelerated aging. Last I heard "paleo hackers" were also animals from planet Earth following the same basic physiology including the biology of aging as has been shown in yeast, worms, flies, and rodents i.e. conserved in all animal life..including paleo hackers. There is no literature to show that "the mTOR problem" will go away by taking resvertrol, CoQ10, lipoic acid, or any supplements. Resvertrol would have to be taken in ridiculous amounts for any decent effect and works on the sirtuin system, not the mTOR system.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 21, 2011
at 09:51 PM

There was also a very interesting article linking leptin to telomere length. If I have time later I'll try to get you references.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:28 PM

There is no study showIng lengthening telomere length causes cancer. Infect recent suffuse have put telomerase inhibitors with multiple cancer lines and not one line has transformed. To get the immortality effect seen in cancer seem to require all the defective signaling between the mitochondria and DNA and chaperone proteins. Multiple pathways collide including mTor which you believe based upon your above comments to be paramount. Studies have shown mTor can be effectively affected by chemicals to stave off apoptosis and cancer generation. Cur cumin is one of many. The studies being don

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 24, 2011
at 04:18 AM

The mTOR pathway integrates signals from nutrients, energy status and growth factors to regulate many processes, including autophagy, ribosome biogenesis and metabolism The mTOR pathway is a central controller of cellular and organism growth that integrates nutrient and hormonal signals, and regulates diverse cellular processes.nhibiting mTOR using rapamycin or derivative drugs offers a promising therapeutic approach for dealing with several diseases and cancer lines. But MTor is not the be all end all for mammalian systems for longevity or even health.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:45 PM

Itself is biologically the most complex area of molecular biology we have found. There is not one path. There are many. The key to understand how to protect the genome and prevent those epigenetic responses.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:43 PM

Dexter every cancer cell line ever found has short telomeres but with telomerase activate to immortalized the cell. Dr rose dale makes an unsupported jump that because telomerase activation does this in cancer it may be bad to do with a normal signal ing genome and pefect stem cell populations withnlow ros and no abnormal DNA methylation problem or acetylation of histone proteins from mitochondrial signal ing. I reject that. Cancer is evolution at work. Cancer is abnormal signal ing that results in abnormal epigenetic modifications of our genome. The are many ways to cause this signal ing

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:34 PM

By mike west and dr delphino at Harvard really go completely against your comments. I don't believe that any data you presented as truths trumps there findings in the last six months. Delphino just reversed aging in mice for the first time ever in human history. You need to read his work. Protein in an healthy person confers no risk. You seem to believe because cr extends lifespan it somehow implicates protein is a problem. Cr has never been shown to do much in humans. It's a great issue for us to study but to say high protein kills is scientific hyperbole based upon what we know now

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:49 PM

Thank you Dr. K for partaking in this discussion, as it appears to have provoked people's thinking on the subjects, and that is always good.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 24, 2011
at 04:23 AM

Seems like Dr Rosedale only wants to focus on the postive of MTor data but not the full effects. Take a look Dr rosedale and read a bit.....http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=rapamycin+adverse+effects&btnG=Search

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 24, 2011
at 04:28 AM

and no Dr Rosedale.....we humans do not act as mice and rats and c elegans do.......remarkable similiarities.....not even our closests relatives acts to CR as you think they might. That Data is not supportive of your hyperbole either. It may be good for you to sell your book or your supplements but it wont work on a clinician who reads. We can agree on things were footing is firm........but we clearly dont see some things eye to eye. That beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The observer bias clearly at play

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on April 25, 2011
at 06:27 PM

i read through this earlier this morning and was pretty blown away. didn't understand alot of it(particularly about the pathways) but the fact that both agree on leptin makes me really start to get excited about what stephan guyanet's gonna say in the next couple of months. think we may be heading for a watershed moment on leptin not unlike what gcbc did for insulin.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:15 PM

...and Delpinho didn't reverse aging for the first time. Lifespan wasn't even measured. He appeared to accelerated appearances of aging, and then bring it back to where it was. Many researchers in the past manipulating insulin, IGF, and even leptin have also appeared to not just reduce aging, but reverse many signs of aging.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 25, 2011
at 03:46 PM

The most remarkable exchange...two paleo physician advocates viewing much the same data arriving at different conclusions! The art of medicine and biology blending with the science of medicine and biology.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:28 PM

...and yes, it would be great if people read more of my previous writings including my book, because many of the answers to insulin and leptin and diet are in there predating sometimes by 20 years what people are “discovering” and writing about today. Hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved..

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:48 PM

We do agree, as you say, on a most critical aspect of human health; the importance of leptin. However, we may differ on how to use it to maximize health as I believe Byron Richards, whom you endorse, misses some of the critical science on how to properly control leptin, as it seems that he must not have actually measured it in patients to see what various dietary manipulations actually did to it. Regardless, it would be great to team up to educate people about what leptin is and does, as it appears most of the bloggers on this and Stephan's site believe it all new..

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:11 PM

I had read Dr. Delpinho's work, and yes, we read differently. He supports what I have said. From the Harvard Gazette on Delpinho's study 11-28-10; "This [developing cancer] remains a concern because cancer cells turn on telomerase [to lengthen telomeres] to make themselves virtually immortal. DePinho said the risk can be minimized by switching on telomerase only for a matter of days or weeks — which may be brief enough to avoid fueling hidden cancers or cause new ones to develop." The only problem in lengthening telomeres to slow aging over the last 25 year has been its connection with cancer.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:30 PM

also, sorry about some of the grammatical errors.. voice recognition is far from perfect, as is my proofreading.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:26 PM

Actually, we do act as mice and rats, even worms and flies, all the way down to yeast. Most of the metabolic pathways we are talking about our highly conserved throughout the animal kingdom and evolution and it would be quite arrogant to think that we are separate. For instance the c. elegans worm responds to human insulin just like we do, shortening its lifespan when extended by reduced insulin signaling (daf-2 mutations). The major knowledge gathered from the various genome projects is how similar they all are, much more similar than different and it's time we stressed those similarities.

7
149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

on April 20, 2011
at 06:40 PM

I have worked with Dr. Rosedale and eaten with Dr. Rosedale. He is Not anti SAT fat. He merely believes that when you are transitioning from a sugar burner to a fat burner it is better to be trained on Mono Fat. They are like Fat Training Wheels. He says they burn more easily than SAT fat. Once you are a fat burner (ketone)...enjoy SAT fat. We have had many a steak dinner in India with cheese on top. Ask him about the Rueben Sandwich (sans bread) that he loves. His diet is a high fat/moderate protein/low carb. He has been saying...high fat/moderate protein/low carb for over 25 years. Read

Insulin and Its Metabolic Effects....presented in 1999.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2001/07/14/insulin-part-one.aspx

Read part 1, 2, 3 and 4.

He feels over 90% of nutrition is in the study of fat. He is open to all comments on Paleo Hacks. He was into fat when it wans't "where it's at".

9aa2a816c61170cc0183a68be0386ba5

(1702)

on April 22, 2011
at 12:07 AM

What kind of mono fats does he suggest? I am having issues losing after a month of paleo eating (mostly saturated fat) so maybe I'm doing it wrong.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on April 22, 2011
at 01:04 AM

He suggests mono...olive oil, macadamia, nuts, avacados....in the first period. It is diff for everyone. Best are coconut oil and coconut butter and ghee or clarified butter. They are mainly MCTs and go directly into the mitochondria where they are utiliezed for fuel. After you are an efficient fat burner. add back in the SAT fat.

6
149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

on April 21, 2011
at 11:14 PM

I implore the Paleo community to read and weigh the exchange in the comment section between Dr. Rosedale and Dr. K...under Dr. K's initial response to Dr. Rosedale's answer. This is the most spirited debate in the community I have seen. I applaud it and love all the more, open debate on all topics Paleo. Thank you Patrik for the forum for the fireworks. It's a beautiful show. Please point this out Patrik.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on April 23, 2011
at 07:42 PM

Loved it! Nothing like a good exchange of ideas between two pretty smart people who hold passionate stances. Love Dr. K and am so happy to see Dr. R here. I had some knowledge of Dr. R's work never really took note. His appearances here have caused me to delve deeper and now I believe his ideas may hold the key to my own personal struggles with weight management that over 15 years of regular low carb/paleo has not been able to provide for me. I just bought the book and am excited to read it.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on April 22, 2011
at 08:16 PM

ha, nice Tartare.. It is a great debate and I love that Dr. Rosedale is sharing his research.

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 21, 2011
at 11:19 PM

yeah, this one is interesting "food for thought" ...sorry, couldn't help it.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 08:52 PM

any doc that that understands leptin is the key is a good doc to me. We obviously disagree on some points......and we will see soon who is right. Primate studies on CR have been very marginal so far. And they are our closest relative. Human data on CR is basically metabolic snippets to draw inferences. Not good enough. Dr Rosedale predicts future cancer for us paleo folks and I say exactly the opposite......L carnosine in omega three fish and animal proteins have been shown to lengthen telomere out of the Nobel Prize winners labs. I have told this community of the telomere gets longer

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 08:54 PM

Mastering Leptin and the Leptin diet are also good books to read along with Dr Rosedale's work.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 26, 2011
at 05:08 PM

You can get Dr Rosedale's book and these two books used at http://www.abebooks.com for cheap.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 08:53 PM

we live longer and healthier. All cancer lines have shorter telomeres with telomerase immortalizing the cell line. Dr Rosedale clearly shows he does not get that bit of info yet. All is good. He seems like a guy who will evolve once he gets better steeped in telomere biology. His ideas on insulin and leptin are completely spot on in my view. So we are not far off as some of you may believe.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 10:09 PM

... But I also agree with you when you say that "any doc that understands leptin is the key is a good doc", and applaud you for same.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 09:59 PM

From discussion below; Dr. Delpinho's study supports what I have said about telomeres. From the Harvard Gazette on Delpinho's study 11-28-10; "This [developing cancer] remains a concern because cancer cells turn on telomerase [to lengthen telomeres] to make themselves virtually immortal. DePinho said the risk can be minimized by switching on telomerase only for a matter of days or weeks — which may be brief enough to avoid fueling hidden cancers or cause new ones to develop." The only problem in lengthening telomeres to slow aging over the last 25 year has been its connection with cancer.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 26, 2011
at 10:07 PM

Dr. K... I have followed telomere research for 20 years. When first discovered it created much excitement in aging research, however over the last decade or so interest in telomeres as a significant cause of aging has greatly waned, and for good reason. It took several generations for adverse effects to reveal themselves in telomerase knockout mice.

3
44c0064c835001351885a6d349a2542f

(279)

on April 22, 2011
at 07:52 PM

"Donat makes the same mistake... people assume I must not know what I'm talking about"

Certainly not, I did not assume anything of the sort.

First of all I must be among the top 2% of your admirors. (Here's why: I have cystic kidneys, looking at the literature I discovered that most emerging treatments target the same cellular pathways that calorie restriction does, so I went and did CR for three years when reading the literature revealed that there is really no evidence that for humans CR will do more than protein and carb restriction. And then I discovered that you must have known that all along.)

So I just meant to comment on the fact that your website has statements like this:

"The fat we recommend you eat differs qualitatively from the usual fare of red meats, cheeses... Those foods usually contain damaged or saturated fats. We recommend only what we consider ???good??? fats." This clearly entails that saturated fats are not "good fats"

"Some examples of ???good??? fats include: raw nuts and seeds such as almonds, walnuts, macadamia, pumpkin and sunflower seeds, olives and olive oil, flax oil and cod liver oil." No saturated fats among the good ones.

Even after one is taken to have become an efficient fat burner you suggest

"Limit these foods to once or twice a week:

Beef or Lamb ??? preferably free ranging,leaner cuts. Preparation: cook so that fat drips off."

In the context of paleohacks these sentences amply qualify as anti saturated fat.

I think my raising the question of why you think/thought that free ranging beef tallow should be discarded, was entirely legitimate. In particular the property of "harder to burn" does not appear to be equivalent to "unhealthy/bad". It seems to me that your quoted position ("for many years I have only significantly limited saturated fats for the first several months") does not appear to seamlessly match with what comes across in these quotes.

Agreed, these are minor points of fine tuning compared to your major contributions, but very important in their own right in various ways.


So the currently somewhat unclear issue is not the protein question, on which as far as can be known, you are I think clearly right, but the question of natural saturated fats and that of natural pufas. (Optimum intake curves, individual variation, interaction with other foods/food-components etc. ) In any case my analytic abilities are up to realizing that you very much know what you are talking about and I am certainly one who is always avidly interested in your most recent thinking on these issues.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 05:20 PM

The process of recommending changing slowly to lct sat fat burning is perfectly fine but there is no evidence that humans can't burn lct sat fat right away when they are in ketosis. there is confounding data that monounsaturated fats cause higher levels of ALE formation from beta oxidation that is not seen in then beta oxidation of lct or MCT FFA. That point is conveniently not discussed in many circles but is alsona factor. I honestly don't believe the fat source is critical once your ketototic and leptin sensitive centrally and peripherally. Ketosis shuts down metabolically derived

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:54 PM

Decrease leakinese and stop autophagy, mitochondrial biogenesis and mitosis when food is not avaailable. It's a survival mode only and can't be sustained. It's never been shown to be effective in humans. We are not rodents or yeast

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 22, 2011
at 08:54 PM

...Thus, my recommendation, especially to help ward off fatigue that people experience when shifting from high carbohydrates to high-fat, is that it is best to derive most of the fat in one's diet from monounsaturated and medium chain saturated fats as the ideal, and the longer chain saturated fats are okay especially after the first several months when one is more adept at burning them. Also, from a practical standpoint and to add variety longer chain saturated fats such as in the form of cheese is fine long-term.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 23, 2011
at 10:26 AM

No..I don't care if you do not have any carbs.. If you do they should be mostly fiber as fiber won't convert into glucose.. Thanks.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 04:52 PM

CR has never been shown to increase longevity. So to make them mental jump from othernphylogenetic classes to us is at best speculation but does require us to examine it. Here is a case in point. We all know longer telomeres confer health and longevity and we now know that l -Carnosine found predominately in animal proteins alone can stop telomere shortening from the Nobel prize winners lab at UCSF. So if protein substrates show telomere lengthening how can CR help humans. UCSF believes it can't and many believe cr is an adaptive short term protective meAsure to slow ros at cytochrome one

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 05:25 PM

Triggers of gluconeogenesis. The only way to over ride this in humans is high cortisol. That can come from overtraining or leptin resistance. This is why I mentioned leptin signal ing has to be intact for the above circumstances to be true. Overtraining can still turn on gluconeogenesis even in a leptin sensitive person who is fit.....butnis over met conning! Matt Lalonde is an expert in this area and that is why he has boundaries for paleo and crossfit. Anthony colpo is a performance glycolytic guru and he obviously sees paleo limits sooner. What colpo won't admit is that performance

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 22, 2011
at 08:47 PM

Thank you Donat and sorry for the confusion. When I wrote that book I had taken s much softer stand on saturated fat, and had written a section about coconut oil and MCTs, and explained that all saturated fats are not the same. This unfortunately was left on the cutting room floor, as HarperCollins thought that this would be too confusing for the general public and perhaps they are right. However, it remains correct that most animal sources of saturated fat in this day and age originally arose from carbohydrates (grain feeding),are meant to be stored, and are more difficult to burn...

1e2735c22808c79753cd0e0674ab631c

(0)

on April 23, 2011
at 03:29 AM

Dr. Rosedale, in "Insulin and Its Metabolic Effects" you recommend getting around 20% of calories from fibrous carbs. For a 2000 kcal diet this would be 12 to 13 cups of veggies a day. Is this correct?

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 22, 2011
at 09:00 PM

Also, as an aside, it has been shown that during CR there is a selective increase in saturation of cell membranes, presumably to ward off peroxidation and enhance longevity. I very much appreciate your support and pursuit of knowledge. Please continue with your thoughtful questions that helps to spread that knowledge on this site and others..

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 23, 2011
at 05:29 PM

Seems to shorten telomeres overtime and why we see elite athletes falter as they age sooner than one would expect. Nick lane believes the reason is because carbohydrates increase "leakiness" at the first cytochrome increasing ROS and then altering mitochondrial biogenesis which takes out our stem cell reserves than causes epigenetic DNA methylation changesnto the remaining cell genome that beats p53 to death and leads to cancer. Since there are no stem cells left to replace the worn out cells DNA it does the only thing left.....apoptosis or makes itself immortal. That is how cancer forms.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 28, 2011
at 11:38 PM

Dr K says,"CR has never been shown to increase longevity...We all know longer telomeres confer health and longevity...l -Carnosine found predominately in animal proteins alone can stop telomere shortening.." I have no idea where you get your information...it is utter nonsense. CR has been shown to slow aging in dozens of species since the 1930s and is considered the gold standard for doing so. Length of telomeres has no correlation with longevity between species. Within an individual telomere length is and must be highly variable depending on the cell type...

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 29, 2011
at 12:08 AM

Carnosine has been shown to reduce DNA damage of telomeres in cultured fibroblasts...That's very different that what you are saying. Please reference your statement. Carnosine is a dipeptide made up of histidine and alanine and having mostly to do with preventing glycation. I have spoken to and had lunch several times with one of its original researchers, Alan Hipkiss, U of Birmingham, UK. He had wished to collaborate on studies where carnosine would be administered IV as it does not completely pass through the GI tract undigested, and is typically made endogenously.

2
D7ee2c67b3290a5d7f267052cbbd247d

on November 11, 2011
at 10:28 PM

I find this all very fascinating but as a relative "newbie" here I also find it very confusing. I get the basic arguments here but for the life of me, I can't wrap my head around what a days food intake would look like on Rosedale's plan.

From what I'm reading, it looks like an extremely small portion of protein (but not from beef. lamb, pork) and a ton of fibrous veggies drowning in coconut oil or olive oil or ghee.

Can somebody clarify what a sample days worth of meals might look like if following Rosedale?

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on December 07, 2011
at 11:58 PM

it is a feast. Breakfast, have a protein drink mixed in with my coffee, (coffee caffeine free type) with a dollop of whipped cream on top. I might snack on almond muffins, mixed salad with some nuts, little balsamic and olive oil, and something protein in there. half an avocado, eat it with a spoon like it were a dessert. tonight will have a really nice leak curry dish, sliced leaks/mushrooms, few peas, chicken, cream, curry powder, onions, garlic, bean sprouts for a little crunch, anything else left in the fridge cauliflower etc. dessert few berries with sour cream.

E7e7e1c856d4494d4a1b700b6869df90

(982)

on May 12, 2012
at 06:57 PM

I can't resist..looks like one whole coconut (including the husk) 3 x/day- add a dash of ghee and an avocado here and there :) love the discussion which does make good sense to me. extra comment: I wonder how many other diet protocols are sabotaged by publishers. Thank fully self pulishing is now extremely easy and increasingly acceptable.

2
44c0064c835001351885a6d349a2542f

(279)

on April 23, 2011
at 05:46 AM

Dear Dr Rosedale

Given the potential importance of the saturated fat issue, let me try to approach it from another angle. I hope you will see my perseverance here for what it is, a sign of respect for your work.

Forgetting for now the question of the transition period, you say:

"it is best to derive most of the fat in one's diet from monounsaturated and medium chain saturated fats as the ideal, and the longer chain saturated fats are okay..."

Well if longer chain safas are "okay", ie not harmful, then in the context of carbs, protein, and pufas having fairly low healthy limits, a much stronger endorsement of safas appears to be warranted. Perhaps not a logical consequence but certainly as an empirical one, given the fact that in nature most monounsaturated fats (and MCTs) come packaged either with pufas or with longer chain saturated fats. So it is practically impossible to eat a natural food based genuinely high fat (non calorie restricted) diet that is low BOTH in pufas and in long chain safas. If one assumes that (long chain) safas are not harmful, then (secondarily to monos and MCTs if these are taken to have additional positive attributes) one should actively seek them otherwise there appears to be no non-artifical way to reduce the amount of harmful food, --particularly omega 6 on a high fat diet.

Even being somewhat uncertain about the evidence relating harmfulness of safas would not change this conclusion, since on the other side we have the near-certainty about the harm of more than a small amount of omega6 fats.

Three additional remarks:

(1)Of course a general recommendation would leave open individual variation, safas might (or might not, we don't seem to really know) still be harmful for some people.

(2) There is a lot of evidence for the beneficial health effects of monunsaturated fats, less but some on MCTs and very little on long chain safas. I wonder to what extent you think that this reflects their real properties as opposed to factors like SAD diet based research, or the diet-heart hypothesis and statin-interest biased nature of the research community.

(3) I think the 'paleo' community follows your footsteps in many major respects but has difficulties realizing this in part precisely because they have made the calculation (sometimes unconsciously, sometimes explicitely) that I outlined above, which is crucial in practice and that you easily come across as resisting.

And many thanks for your earlier reactions and kind words.

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 25, 2011
at 03:40 AM

Hi Donat. I agree with most everything you said, since it was prefaced with “forgetting the transition period”. After the transition period, when people are burning fat more effectively, much of the fat one eats will get burned. However, the science that long chain safas are more difficult to burn is fairly solid. Thus, I wouldn't say it's harmful, but might cause some people to feel a bit more fatigued. If I had a choice between shorter chain or longer chain sufas, I'd go for the shorter chain, but I also have no problem at all eating long chain safas over sugar, excess protein or w6 FAs...

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 25, 2011
at 03:50 AM

...and often do with no hesitation or guilt. Your point in #2 is well taken. Most research is done on animals (including humans) adapted to a high carbohydrate diet and did not take place long enough for any significant adaptation to have taken place to a high-fat diet. Furthermore, the majority of “so-called” high-fat diets are still higher in carbs than fat and would not fit my definition of a high-fat diet. Add to that the reason that most of the studies are done is not for acquisition of truth but for marketing and set up accordingly. I feel in general one must look to deeper science. Thx

5dffdd2f807170dcc66d6d687f4e2ba4

on April 25, 2011
at 04:14 AM

The science of fats are also much more complicated so one can only make best guesses. For instance, the ability to rapidly burn a fatty acid is also determined by the position on the glycerol molecule of the triglyceride that it came from, those being in the middle being harder to burn than on the ends. Also, there will virtually be no pure source of a FA as virtually all come from mixtures of safa, mufa, pufa, all of varying chain lengths. What to take away? Avoid non-fiber carbohydrates, excess protein, excess w6, and if you've done that, you've done well. Thanks for insightful comments.

1e2735c22808c79753cd0e0674ab631c

(0)

on April 26, 2011
at 06:25 PM

Dr. Rosedale, it seems like the easiest fat source to use on your diet is Olive oil (especially when starting your diet). While most of it's fat is omega-9, about 10% or more can be omega-6. Even if someone were supplementing with omega-3, wouldn't it be difficult to overcome the amount of omega-6 to reach a healthy n:6/n:3 ratio if someone were getting most of their fat from olive oil?

2
C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on April 20, 2011
at 07:33 AM

Coconut oil is great! made some perfect Rosedale cookies the other day. Almond flour, coconut oil, almond butter, unsweetened coconut flakes, little xylotol, tad of salt and they were yummy!

Olive oil, MCT's, coconut oils are all great oils, or avocados and almonds have great oils too.

1
26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

on November 11, 2011
at 07:38 PM

I don't follow Dr. Rosedale's plan. But I get about 250g of fat a day. Butter, cream, coconut fat, beef fat and cold EV olive oil are my main sources. Also, lately, nut butters.

I have low total cholesterol and LDL and high HDL - this was true before high-fat and after. There's a case to be made that people who see their LDL jump while eating a higher-fat paleo diet should minimize dairy fat/saturated fat.

E7e7e1c856d4494d4a1b700b6869df90

(982)

on May 12, 2012
at 07:18 PM

LDL ^ depends if it is "fluffy" or "dense" My understanding Triglycerides are more important than cholesterol levels

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 20, 2011
at 01:31 PM

Spoonful of Coconut oil in your coffee or tea. Or Heavy Whipping Cream. Good stuff.

1
2e22e4512f44b9c848132acbf57344e2

on April 22, 2011
at 12:03 AM

I really appreciate Dr. Rosedale being so generous in sharing his thoughts. I am definitely going to consider his recommendation of lowering protein. From a practical standpoint I'm still struggling to see how I can consume 200-250gm of fat/day while lowering my protein intake. There is also the problem of cost for me...so I would most likely get the bulk of my fat from either butter or olive oil (and I struggle eating these large salads with oil). Currently I feel like I'm maxing out on fat while eating more protein than Dr. Rosedale recommends and I also consume a small amount of starch.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 22, 2011
at 05:25 AM

Coconut oil for 54 oz Nutiva Brand for $21 from http://www.vitacost.com Right now order $50 worth of products and get free shipping. Usually shipping is $4.99 Wife and I use about 6 containers a year.

C0cf19329f850011e66d1ccfa7d10896

(268)

on April 22, 2011
at 08:18 PM

almonds have a good oils as well. I hate to have my salads dripping with oil too, but it is amazing how quickly a little here and there all adds up.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on April 22, 2011
at 05:22 AM

Panfry your eggs in coconut oil and eat some bacon on the med rare side. Each tablespoon of coconut oil has 117 cals. Eat avocados and if a member of Costco, they have a premade guacomole for about 7 bucks that contains about 15 Hass avocados. No preservatives and no sugar. Cook your liver and beef in coconut oil. For salads, I use Good Seasons Italian Packets in their hourglass shaped shaker. You add the olive oil and vinegar with the packet. Packet does have a little tiny bit of sugar and guar gum with the seasonings...but it is good. I mix 1/2 balsamic and 1/2 ordinary vinegar.

1
74350a3e3208940ac9704d92696936b8

on April 19, 2011
at 03:07 AM

In a pinch, I have often drank olive oil. Like Dr. Rosedale says, it is a pretty clean fuel source.

1
44c0064c835001351885a6d349a2542f

(279)

on April 18, 2011
at 06:22 PM

His diet does not appear to be appreciably higher in fat than many others around, in fact pretty much everything from paleo 2.O onwards is high fat. As Paul Jaminet among others points out, evidence is mounting that one can have a shift towards some extra protein for athletic achievement, pregnancy etc. or towards some extra fat for health(span). (Rosedale appears to be interested in health.)

The issue of saturated fats is very important but orthogonal to the above. I suspect he does not have a good evidence based reason to be vary of them, otherwise he would presumably say what it is.

If I say that drinking good quality virgin olive oil or eating good quality butter straight is delicious, many here will agree, but probably just sounds scary for someone not used to it.

So I just recall that fat is very calorie dense, so it is extremely easy to eat a large percentage of calories (not of food weight) from fat. Just eat vegetables and meat with a lot of fat and you are essentially there. Good places to check out in this connection http://perfecthealthdiet.com/ or http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/

Whether the transition is easy will depend of course also on the previous diet.

0
C0fcb48d7da4f76fac17318efd2cd6b8

on December 14, 2011
at 04:18 PM

OK- what do Dr. Rosedale and The Quilt actual EAT? How do their theories look on their plates? How have they changed their eating habits based on their interpretations of data?

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on December 14, 2011
at 06:31 PM

Chapa...see my 1st answer above for what Dr. R eats...high fat/mod protein/low carb. Omelets with veggies and butter, cheese etc...I dont see him down caff. coffee or tea...but he will do decaf.

0
Eead82aa93bbcdada0bcd817d0952e58

(214)

on December 14, 2011
at 04:10 PM

I can only lose weight on relatively high protein 130-140g for my 5'7" mesomorphic female frame and little in the way of fat or carbs. I tried replacing some of the protein with "good" saturated fats when transitioning from this rather restrictive diet: so coconut oil and pastured fatty meats keeping carbs very low (sub 25g total) and promptly gained fat and felt worse. And yes, it was FAT not muscle despite being a life-long hard weight lifter and being in a very active job. My body genuinely seems to love good quality lean protein but not so much with the saturated fat: so while I can personally attest to not being able to utilize dietary saturated fat when you are metabolically compromised but I just can't get behind the lower protein stance when my body seems to be screaming otherwise. Is this simply a "everyone is different" phenomenon?

0
27361737e33ba2f73ab3c25d2699ad61

(1880)

on November 11, 2011
at 06:23 PM

@ Dave: Couldn't add a comment above under Dave's comment for some reason.

I would like to understand this too Dave. With restricted protein (approx 1 gram per kg of bodyweight), very low carb -- the fats make up the majority of the diet. Olive oil and nuts/avocados are considered the A list fats on Dr. Rosedale's plan but all of them with the exception of macadamias contain appreciable amounts of omega 6 which quickly add up if one is on maintenance and/or very slender. I think overweights have an easier time because they are running partially off their own fat as they reduce. Are we certain the fear of omega-6 isn't overblown or perhaps something else besides the omega -6 in the so-called bad oils like corn, soybean, safflower is causing a problem? The fats in raw nuts are also not as bioavailable because of the fiber. But I would like to see Dave question answered.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 11, 2011
at 09:20 PM

omega-6 and too many polyunsaturated fats in general are the #1 killer in america and beyond

27361737e33ba2f73ab3c25d2699ad61

(1880)

on November 11, 2011
at 10:33 PM

Then how come the so-called good fats are olive oil and nuts which contain appreciable amounts of omega 6? What is "too many"?? We're back to fear of walnuts...

0
27361737e33ba2f73ab3c25d2699ad61

(1880)

on September 20, 2011
at 03:46 PM

I have a few issues with the Rosedale protein recommendations. First of all, who knows with precision what their "lean body mass" is? I wish he would simply use ideal bodyweight. The purported self measuring with a tape measure and calculations from the Eades book can become highly innacurate if a woman has a short vertical torso length (more of a boyish shape -- up and down at the waist rather than nipped in as with a longer torso) or if she has an enlarged uterus from fibroids -- falsely making abdominal measurement larger than it is in reality.

Also, it seems a highly unnatural diet to have to adds gobs of fat to smallish amounts of protein in order to avoid starvation. I think his ratios work best for overweight people who can "feed" off their own body fat stores. But I am 5'3" tall and weigh 105 pounds. I eat very low carb because of rampant diabetes in my family. So I would have to add spoonfuls of coconut oil/olive oil etc to maintain decent calories. My current diet: Grass-fed meats/lots of eggs/non-starchy veggies/nuts. Treats : 1 tiny plum or a few berries and 99% dark chocolate or nibs. Bevvies: Tea and coffee -- unsweetened and with no lighteners. I only eat twice per day.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:08 PM

LBM is pretty easy to measure. Someone experienced can spot approx fat percentage just by looking. Most people fall within a certain percentage. Just get a caliper if you wanna do it yourself.

286a4ff7c362241c5c4b020df4972212

(1288)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:12 AM

I dont get too caught up in exact protein - but generally eat between 60 - 80 gms of protein a day - not 150 - 200 that many eat here - I think that simplifies things a LOT

E7e7e1c856d4494d4a1b700b6869df90

(982)

on May 12, 2012
at 07:08 PM

I go by desire to eat it. If I cannot stomach another bite of protein and check my daily consumption I am usualy right on 70 g+-. Other days I easily eat a burger, bacon and eggs all in one meal.

0
76fd821658bfeefcdd91a25eb67ec683

(65)

on April 19, 2011
at 07:27 PM

Saute your veggies in a lots of butter or olive oil and use generous amounts of fat based dressings on your salads. Really dump it on there.

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