1

votes

Paleo diet expert accountability

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created February 24, 2013 at 7:29 PM

Hi paleohackers. The other day on youtube I noticed that durianrider (the deficient-or so we're told-raw vegan) posted yet another one of his nearly perfect and comprehensive blood lipid tests (cholesterol, trigs, AGES, urea, uric acid, testosterone, fasting glucose etc). This is how he shows to the world that not only is he exceptionally fit on a low fat fruit based diet, but his labs prove it.

This is much more than any of the paleo experts can claim, as NONE of them are competitive athletes, NONE of them are lean and trim (besides poster boy Sisson), and so far NONE of them have posted a single complete blood lipid once.

So, if these people are so fit and healthy, why can't a single one of them prove it? If they can, why haven't they? None of them have proven that they are fit (competitive athletes) and NONE of them have yet to prove that they are even healthy (comprehensive REAL blood tests). All of them, except one, look exceptionally average.

For the record, I am talking about those selling books and products espousing the health and/or performance benefits of replacing carbohydrate calories with increased fat calories. Those would be Taubes, Sisson, Moore, Wolff, Mercola, Rosendale, Attia, Kruse (debatable), etc. Although other people could possibly be thrown into the mix as well, like Mary Enig and Robert Lustig.

7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

(4176)

on February 25, 2013
at 09:36 AM

hallelujah, praise the lowrd

2e6e673ce3eb647407d260d4d57a731b

(1021)

on February 25, 2013
at 04:18 AM

pointless nerdy competition is the new antidepressant of choice.

2e6e673ce3eb647407d260d4d57a731b

(1021)

on February 25, 2013
at 04:15 AM

worthless nerdy competition is the new antidepressant of choice

24c27817ad9ac518946dda4a131737b5

on February 25, 2013
at 04:14 AM

-1 for the wording and the poor logic. Good question, however. I'd like to give you a +1/2 for that part, if only the platform would allow.

D7cc4049bef85d1979efbd853dc07c8e

(4029)

on February 25, 2013
at 03:51 AM

How about being alive as a marker of health? Robb's story of declining health while doing veg*an diets then restoring it by changing is good enough without pushing out a public display of test numbers.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on February 25, 2013
at 03:28 AM

Go tell those crossfit guys/girls that the are not athletes. Or tell Steve Nash and Stephen Reeks they are not athletes... And that's from a two second google. Lots of paleo athletes. Too bad they are all a fantasy...

92d67b02a709cad2250f10848f9178e6

(2422)

on February 25, 2013
at 01:43 AM

animal, no one is making you eat Paleo. If you are not convinced, don't eat Paleo.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on February 25, 2013
at 01:32 AM

Wonderful point!

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on February 24, 2013
at 10:19 PM

Dude, look up sarcasm in the dictionary. The point is athleticism is not based on diet. I am fairly athletic was before I went paleo, am now.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on February 24, 2013
at 10:07 PM

Advocating replacing carbs with fat is not the same as paleo having to be low-carb. One could argue that Paleo is intrinsically lowER carb than SAD, but when we're talking eating, say, 125g carbs compared to a SAD average of 200+ grams per days (sources vary) I find that to be pretty meaningless. It depends on what you mean by low-carb, I suppose, and I think that low-carb for a SAD eater is different than low-carb for a Paleo/Primal eater.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:58 PM

http://eatingacademy.com/how-low-carb-diet-reduced-my-risk-of-heart-disease and HEEEERE'S ATTIA'S!

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:57 PM

Should one respond to juvenile taunting?

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:56 PM

http://garytaubes.com/2011/04/before-sugar-were-talking-about-cholesterol/#respond HEEEEEERE'S TAUBES!

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:51 PM

in his defense, Sisson, Taubes, Lustig, Enig, Rosendale all do advocate replacing carbs with fats.

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:42 PM

and as for you athletic test comment. DR bet Attia 50 grand that be would be beat him in a race of Attia's choosing. of course, Attia had no response.

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:38 PM

Links please ?

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:37 PM

I would say that ALL of the aforementioned experts look average, which isn't saying much. I agree that DR doesn't look healthy though- too thin (but carbs make you insidiously obese? WTF?).

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:34 PM

I was saying athleticism OR health. Not both because I do realize that paleo people refuse to believe that exercise is more important than diet for health. But you use steroids to increase athleticism? HAHAH. And what does it say about your diet if you can't also be athletic on it? It says your diet is deficient and that you would die in the wild. How are your balls holding up, btw? And steroids are antagonistic to good health and are definitely not paleo. –

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:32 PM

I was saying athleticism OR health. Not both because I do realize that paleo people refuse to believe that exercise is more important than diet for health. But you use steroids to increase athleticism? HAHAH. And what does it say about your diet if you can't also be athletic on it? It says your diet is deficient and that you would die in the wild. How are your balls holding up?

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:23 PM

An athletic test? Many professional athletes eat crap diets. They are great athletes because if God given talent - not diet. I do this diet for health, not to increase my athleticism -- I user steroids for that

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on February 24, 2013
at 08:54 PM

Cannot say my eye is so well-trained, but I do have enough faith in it.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on February 24, 2013
at 08:53 PM

As much as you want to quantify health, there's not more power in numbers than appearance, particularly to a well-trained eye. Most paleo folks in the public eye do appear healthy. And despite his stellar numbers, DR appears to be quite unhealthy by comparison.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on February 24, 2013
at 08:50 PM

Oh you Ray Peat cultists... ;)

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on February 24, 2013
at 08:10 PM

Invariably? I think it has been well established that paleo does not have to equal low carb.

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 07:57 PM

Yes but how do you know these people are healthy? Or that they are not, unhealthy without objective measurements? That's really what the root of my question is meant to be, sorry if it got a bit muddled in teh presentation.

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 07:54 PM

How do you know their diets work for them when you have no idea whether or not they are healthy or athletic? (nothing objective...just what they tell you...but of course it's not b/c they want to sell you something).

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on February 24, 2013
at 07:51 PM

A blood panel cannot diagnose good health, it can only identify bad health.

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 07:45 PM

That's a good point. I could leave that out and the question is still the same- why don't they provide some accountability? Blood lipids are the obvious ones, since they objectively measure one's health (heart disease and diabetes risk). Subjectively none of htem look exceptionally healthy. So an objective test would be meaningful. An objective athletic test would be good, but first they'd have to do a subjective one. Unfortunately, this si the diet where you don't have to exercise (other than walking and weight training twic per week) and you get to be "look good naked' in the words of Sisson

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on February 24, 2013
at 07:39 PM

I didn't downvote, but if you have a legitimate question, it's best not to compare Paleo eaters with fruitarians. In other words, it's not a competition.

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 07:37 PM

Why the downvotes?

  • Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

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12 Answers

9
Medium avatar

on February 24, 2013
at 08:24 PM

If you don't feel that a particular person has legitimate credentials, don't buy their book. If I don't find various herbivorous cults to be appealing, I won't join them. Easy peasy.

3
D7cc4049bef85d1979efbd853dc07c8e

(4029)

on February 25, 2013
at 01:05 AM

How old is durianrider? Just asking because none of the paleo personalities you are railing against are exactly spring chickens. You surely wouldn't be trying to equate people in their 40s-50s-60s with someone possibly younger . . . are you?

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on February 25, 2013
at 01:32 AM

Wonderful point!

3
Af3e3615beba642bcafd0f21d64d74f7

on February 24, 2013
at 08:31 PM

It is fairly easy to fabricate test results in a last ditch effort to "prove" (50 year old guy in a Lambo to compensate for something else). He openingly takes b-12 injections. And yes, he is lean, and can run. But what can he lift, what else can he do? If everyone was paid to be a competition grade athlete, then it may very well be possible. However, once his activity level diminishes. We will see the truth behind a high carb, low fat diet. If you choose that route, stay highly active. If you have a regular job and can't keep all of your time and effort in just exercising your ass off, you have to be realistic about biological processes. Fruit, meat or neither or both, whatever.

3
3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on February 24, 2013
at 08:07 PM

Taubes and attia both have posted theirs. Others have as well.

Personally I do not really care about someone else's. my LDL and trigs dropped. My HDL increased. Good enough for me

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:58 PM

http://eatingacademy.com/how-low-carb-diet-reduced-my-risk-of-heart-disease and HEEEERE'S ATTIA'S!

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:56 PM

http://garytaubes.com/2011/04/before-sugar-were-talking-about-cholesterol/#respond HEEEEEERE'S TAUBES!

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:38 PM

Links please ?

2
Cc3ce03985eac5ebcbb95fc2329f13b0

on February 25, 2013
at 04:10 AM

So what if they all did, and they were all excellent? Or they were all horrible? Would that mean it was great or horrible for you or me or anyone else? Isn't it more important how YOUR blood results come back? I don't care about that banana guy's blood test, fruitarian would not be a good diet for me. He can do whatever he wants. I am pretty tired of the idea that we're in competition with other dietary lifestyles. I don't care, people need to experiment around with what works for them.

2e6e673ce3eb647407d260d4d57a731b

(1021)

on February 25, 2013
at 04:15 AM

worthless nerdy competition is the new antidepressant of choice

2e6e673ce3eb647407d260d4d57a731b

(1021)

on February 25, 2013
at 04:18 AM

pointless nerdy competition is the new antidepressant of choice.

2
92d67b02a709cad2250f10848f9178e6

on February 25, 2013
at 01:50 AM

No one is making you eat Paleo. If you are not convinced, don't follow Paleo guidelines. You cannot assume that a claim is false because it has not been proven true.

2
32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on February 24, 2013
at 07:49 PM

Luckie is right, diet isn't a competition. DR is but a singular datapoint. His diet and his activity level works for him. Wolf, Sisson, etc... their diets work for them and their situation. Robb can't do a lot of the foods that Sisson can. Both of which seem to be more restrictive than your average human. Do what works for you and don't make it a contest.

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 07:54 PM

How do you know their diets work for them when you have no idea whether or not they are healthy or athletic? (nothing objective...just what they tell you...but of course it's not b/c they want to sell you something).

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on February 24, 2013
at 08:53 PM

As much as you want to quantify health, there's not more power in numbers than appearance, particularly to a well-trained eye. Most paleo folks in the public eye do appear healthy. And despite his stellar numbers, DR appears to be quite unhealthy by comparison.

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 07:57 PM

Yes but how do you know these people are healthy? Or that they are not, unhealthy without objective measurements? That's really what the root of my question is meant to be, sorry if it got a bit muddled in teh presentation.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on February 24, 2013
at 08:54 PM

Cannot say my eye is so well-trained, but I do have enough faith in it.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on February 24, 2013
at 07:51 PM

A blood panel cannot diagnose good health, it can only identify bad health.

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:37 PM

I would say that ALL of the aforementioned experts look average, which isn't saying much. I agree that DR doesn't look healthy though- too thin (but carbs make you insidiously obese? WTF?).

D7cc4049bef85d1979efbd853dc07c8e

(4029)

on February 25, 2013
at 03:51 AM

How about being alive as a marker of health? Robb's story of declining health while doing veg*an diets then restoring it by changing is good enough without pushing out a public display of test numbers.

2
F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on February 24, 2013
at 07:47 PM

I will have my test results on Tuesday. I was Paleo (with cheese) and I can post my results. The only thing is... I discovered Paleo being bed-ridden in a state of complete despair and I had SIBO, leaky gut, gluten intolerance, etc. I still have leaky gut and gluten intolerance but I got rid of SIBO (thank God - not sure for how long).

So no matter what kind of test results I get - it is an improvement. Hell, anything is an improvement. Paleo is not a choice for me, it is a necessity.

Fruitarians and SIBO sufferers do not mix.

Please follow that durianrider. Let me know when he gets cancer of pancreas or some other weird thing. Same with David Wolf. I actually thing David eats fish and seafood in great secrecy.

1
Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10989)

on February 24, 2013
at 07:51 PM

Dr McGuff and Matt lalonde come to mind; there's also a guy named citntrbrandon or something on YouTube. All three of these guys are advocating paleo and extraordinarily in shape. Durriander looks like a prebuscent 12 year old, and doesn't look healthy tbh. Also sure he might be healthy with certain popular metrics but skinny people have double the death rate of death in the general population and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's dead before 50. I would be flabbergasted if he made 65 on his current diet. Ever seen an80 year old vegan, anywhere? Did t think so...

0
24c27817ad9ac518946dda4a131737b5

on February 25, 2013
at 04:09 AM

Steve Nash and Grant Hill supposedly eat Paleo.

It's inconclusive to judge diets by the health of the leading gurus, anyhow. Most of them were not fed as such from birth and only adopted the lifestyle in adulthood. This applies to the Paleo gurus as well as to guys like Atkins or Ornish.

0
Af8fd7fe5772dc0d7f453229a3fe1a56

(0)

on February 25, 2013
at 02:24 AM

My labs were bad, pre paleo. Now they're fantastic

7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

(4176)

on February 25, 2013
at 09:36 AM

hallelujah, praise the lowrd

0
7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

on February 24, 2013
at 07:51 PM

There's no such thing as a paleo athlete because it's invariably low carb

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on February 24, 2013
at 08:10 PM

Invariably? I think it has been well established that paleo does not have to equal low carb.

Df253d9b87725b5f2946ab077786f81a

(20)

on February 24, 2013
at 09:51 PM

in his defense, Sisson, Taubes, Lustig, Enig, Rosendale all do advocate replacing carbs with fats.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on February 25, 2013
at 03:28 AM

Go tell those crossfit guys/girls that the are not athletes. Or tell Steve Nash and Stephen Reeks they are not athletes... And that's from a two second google. Lots of paleo athletes. Too bad they are all a fantasy...

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on February 24, 2013
at 08:50 PM

Oh you Ray Peat cultists... ;)

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on February 24, 2013
at 10:07 PM

Advocating replacing carbs with fat is not the same as paleo having to be low-carb. One could argue that Paleo is intrinsically lowER carb than SAD, but when we're talking eating, say, 125g carbs compared to a SAD average of 200+ grams per days (sources vary) I find that to be pretty meaningless. It depends on what you mean by low-carb, I suppose, and I think that low-carb for a SAD eater is different than low-carb for a Paleo/Primal eater.

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