2

votes

Ldl gone Beserk

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created May 31, 2012 at 5:36 PM

I follow a paleo style diet.

my paleo diet was low carb say50 carbs a day max.

I do not eat a lot of saturated fat except virgin coconut oil, say max 1 big table spoon a day in meals.

I do eat a handful of mix nuts each day mixed with sunflower seeds.Have done this for say 1 year ,I cut down a lot in the last month.

hmm I wonder if the zinc content depleted the copper in me??? and raised LDl.

My LDL is also elevated results below are from lab tests,

My ldl began to soar with my paleo style diet.which I started about a year ago.

Before that my total cholesterol was 6.2, so hdl was low and trig high and ldl high,

it was something like this below ,

Total Cholesterol: 6.2 mmol/L = 241.8 mg/dL

LDL Cholesterol: 4. mmol/L = 156 mg/dL

HDL Cholesterol: 1 mmol/L = 39 mg/dL

Triglerides: 3 mmol/L = 267 mg/dL

my vit d and b12 was low at this time so I started supplementation.It is okay now.

over this period I lost circa 7 kilo, I am not overweight now.My BMi weight index is fine

but it improved my HDl , and triglycerides.

I am type 2 diabetic on diet only, no medication for it.Have been this way 4 years.

I also have hypothyroidism, I take T4 and I also started taking T3 medication too 5 weeks ago, As my T3 was just a bit below the minimum range.

After starting the T3 my total cholesterol has dropped circa 10 % mainly LDl is this a coincidence. ???

My diabetes is fairly well controlled ,as per results below,

Blood results ##

Below are Uk and USA readings

cholesterol total 9.7 mmol USA 375. << this was 10.5 mmol before starting the T3

triglycerides 1.03 91 USA

hdl 1.59 USA 61

LDL 7.6 USA USA 293

Thyroid tests Tsh 0.11 range is 0.3 4.2 Ft4 17.7 range is 12 -22 Ft3 6.7 pmol range is 3.1- 6.8 pmol <<< my t3 has raised with the t3 meds.

Thyroid antibody test looks good so possibly no hashimitos ? but perhaps a conversion issue T4 to T3 , tpo ab 7 range is 0 -35

hb1ac 5.7 % range is 4.0 - 6.0

new range 39.0 mmol range 20 -42

Inflammation markers below ## seem to look good so not sure why the LDl is not clearing. unfortunately i have a long wait to get the results of my LDl sub fraction test, hopefully it is the large fluffy kind , but still it is too high.

crp <1 range 0-5 ESR was 5 mm/hr range 1.0 10.0

minerals vitamins''

ferritin 75 ug/l range 14 -200

vitamin B12 3236g/ml range 200-660

Magnesium 0.82 range mmol/l range 0.7- 1.0

vitamin D 85 nmol divided by 2.5 = 34 ng USA

I have been eating virgin coconut oil, a bit of salad,fish , free range meat etc when I can get it.

supplements

B12 brazil nuts or selenium for my thyroid vit B complex fish oil , krill oil

any ideas folks, I hoped the T3 medication would lower my LDl, nut alas , i have not prevailed.

I was thinking oft taking chelated copper , chelated zinc, and iodine, and selenium,

not to sure how much to take, or if the chelated minerals can be taken together.

Any ideas on how to lower the LDL

thanks chessguy

A2b9075bd176ca2912743e4df1e4af49

(146)

on June 05, 2012
at 01:57 AM

chump, small dense ldl is what causes the problems, large puffy ldl are virtually harmless. these small ldl are what are morphed from the vldl your body makes with your trigs are high.

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on June 02, 2012
at 03:34 PM

@chessguy Good luck man. My story is similar, HbA1c down to 4.5% on <20g a day. No hyperthyroidism yet, but it's a worry (got lipid panel results next week).

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 02, 2012
at 03:18 PM

I now understand this starts the cycle of soaring lipids , in people like me who have good HDL, and low trig, but LDL just ballons, so for me it is not an issue of abundance but an issue of clearance. I expect I need to correct it with copper iodine selenium , and a little zinc, liver etc And other supplement recommended by the Quilt in his top ten supplements list. goodluck chessguy

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 02, 2012
at 03:09 PM

@borofergie @scottts but at a cost I expect this left me with hypothyroidism , I read or heard on his seminar somewhere that with his patients Hypothyroidism was rampant , and he could not fathom why, Like Jaminet says low glucose can cause this , and like the quilt says iodine and other minerals get depleted on Paleo and low carb diets especially in the initail phases of paleo style, ref http://jackkruse.com/what-are-the-top-ten-paleo-supplements/ goodluck chessguy

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 02, 2012
at 03:09 PM

@borofergie @scottts I am type 2 , diagnosed 4 years ago to come of all meds in 6 weeks, i did fairly low carb 100 carbs a day max then a couple of years after I roughly followed DR Richard K bernstein VLC under circa 40 carbs a day to control my sugars it worked his ref fre online book to read' http://www.diabetes-book.com/

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on June 01, 2012
at 11:51 PM

@scottts this has me nervous, I'm T2 and I've been <20g VLCing for the last 4 months. Waiting for my blood-panel at my review next week. I kinda assumed that VLC = great lipid profile.

7f8bc7ce5c34aae50408d31812c839b0

(2698)

on June 01, 2012
at 11:44 PM

My personal experince meshes exactly with what Jaminet says. I'm hypo and VLC does NOT work for me. I get raised TSH and high LDL on carb levels between 35 and 80 gm/day. At 80 or above my TSH is controllable and LDL is reduced.

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 01, 2012
at 05:44 PM

@MAMBO, where you aware some genotypes do not thrive well on dietary fat, ?? Mambo keep this on a positive debate level ,what makes you certain I am recovering from fatty liver disease ??? expand on this if you are knowledge in this field.It could be enlightening.. and on the particular enzyme tests you mention which ones, and why. chessguy

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 01, 2012
at 05:33 PM

@MAMBO,hmmmm . misinformation, enlighten me where do you see that ESR of 5 is high, "you are certain I am recovering from fatty liver disease" and ask me stop making assumptions, Ironic, NVM. I can be low fat and low carb , did you read my question fully it was at different times. A person could be low fat low carb at the same time too, simply by eating a lot of protein.Not a good option I reckon. Also my CRP is less than 1 as mentioned above. Which liver tests are you referring to.and why ? My FBC is all well in ref range , if i had severe inflammation it would be all over the place,

5e92edc5a180787a60a252a8232006e9

(345)

on June 01, 2012
at 03:15 PM

You're awash in a lot of misinformation. You do not have a grasp of what you're saying. What makes you think you have no inflammation issue? ESR of 5 is considerable inflammation. Where are your liver enzymes #s? You listed nonessential liver figures. As a diabetic, I'm almost certian you're recovering from fatty liver and pancreas. Stop making so many assumptions and be straight with your info. What are you eating? How can you be both low-fat and low-carb? Why are you afraid of fat?

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 01, 2012
at 01:32 PM

appears my answer is too long for the comment section so It is below

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 01, 2012
at 12:45 PM

@stephen diary ,, a little milk in 3 cups of tea a day, 2 table spoons of greek yoghurt , max 3 times a week a couple of slices of cheese once a week. you mention there is a hint that I eat a lot , please clarify albumin and bilrubin on the upper side perhaps from my raised protein intake .. fruit 1 kiwi in the morning , and half a bell fruit almost every day in some form, thanks chessguy

121a16aded2bed8dca492d3c9662ef4c

(1327)

on June 01, 2012
at 08:38 AM

Nuts and seeds provide insoluble fibre. You should see about getting more soluble fibre. If you don't want to eat any fruit because of your diabetes, then you would need to get it from vegetables, such zucchini, peppers, spinach, and so on. If you don't have a genetic form of high cholesterol, then as I said -- the fat has to be coming from somewhere. Either it's the food, or from inside you.

121a16aded2bed8dca492d3c9662ef4c

(1327)

on June 01, 2012
at 08:35 AM

The absence of a pot belly is not a guarantee you don't have visceral fat, that is, fat in the organs. If you had poor diet for a long time and are/were even slightly overweight, then that is a risk. I'm looking for evidence of fatty liver, here. Your liver function tests look okay, but they do hint that you are eating a lot (albumin on the high side, bilirubin on the high side). You mentioned yoghurt. How much dairy are you eating? Some people find that drives up their LDL. Have you considered stopping dairy entirely?

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 31, 2012
at 10:41 PM

Where are you coming up with "large, puffy LDL don't harm you"?

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on May 31, 2012
at 10:19 PM

LDl Parsed "my LDl sub fraction test as I mentioned above will take circa 4 more weeks , unfortunately.

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on May 31, 2012
at 10:05 PM

cholesterol high

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on May 31, 2012
at 06:39 PM

1) this is REALLY ugly to attempt to read, 2) there are MANY threads around here that concern cholesterol and specifics of raising/lowering LDL, 3) we're not really here to interpret test results; I'd recommend doing some research on your own if you don't have a qualified professional that you feel can assist you. If you have questions about specific food's relation to cholesterol numbers (you'll find a lot of that via search - eggs especially), and they haven't been asked before, perhaps reformat and ask it that way. You may want to start here: http://paleohacks.com/questions/86169

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6 Answers

1
B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on June 01, 2012
at 10:44 AM

I don't understand this, you claim to be eating both a low-carb and low-fat diet. That's just not possible unless you're either severly restricting your calories, or you are significantly overdosing on protein (which is also rather difficult to do and inadvisable for a number of reasons).

You must be getting your energy from somewhere.

It's all pretty irrelevant though (unless you're eating more carbs than you think). On a low-carb diet the fat in your diet is completely unrelated to the fat in your blood: http://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/saturated-fat-on-your-plate-or-in-your-blood/

Your HDL and trig numbers reflect this I think. Having said that your LDL number is pretty whack.

Jaminet has this to say: "So, for instance, when you're eating very low-carb, one thing your body does to conserve glucose and protein is lower the level of T3 and thyroid hormones. So, that reduces glucose utilization by cells. That's good. It's conserving the glucose so that it can be used for the most important functions, but now you have lower thyroid hormone levels. Thyroid hormone also activates the fat metabolism. It activates LDL receptors, and some other things."

"It's possible, if you're eating too low-carb, to get elevations of blood lipids. I have to say this is an issue we're still exploring. We did a lot of work on my blog this year trying to track down why some low-carb dieters have high blood lipids. Usually it's either a thyroid hormone response to too little glucose in the diet, or various micronutrient deficiencies. Copper deficiency is a common one ??? selenium, magnesium can affect it. "

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/01/07/dr-paul-jaminet-interview.aspx

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 01, 2012
at 01:32 PM

appears my answer is too long for the comment section so It is below

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on June 02, 2012
at 03:34 PM

@chessguy Good luck man. My story is similar, HbA1c down to 4.5% on <20g a day. No hyperthyroidism yet, but it's a worry (got lipid panel results next week).

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 02, 2012
at 03:09 PM

@borofergie @scottts I am type 2 , diagnosed 4 years ago to come of all meds in 6 weeks, i did fairly low carb 100 carbs a day max then a couple of years after I roughly followed DR Richard K bernstein VLC under circa 40 carbs a day to control my sugars it worked his ref fre online book to read' http://www.diabetes-book.com/

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 02, 2012
at 03:09 PM

@borofergie @scottts but at a cost I expect this left me with hypothyroidism , I read or heard on his seminar somewhere that with his patients Hypothyroidism was rampant , and he could not fathom why, Like Jaminet says low glucose can cause this , and like the quilt says iodine and other minerals get depleted on Paleo and low carb diets especially in the initail phases of paleo style, ref http://jackkruse.com/what-are-the-top-ten-paleo-supplements/ goodluck chessguy

B3173217a49b5b0116078775a17eb21d

(11488)

on June 01, 2012
at 11:51 PM

@scottts this has me nervous, I'm T2 and I've been <20g VLCing for the last 4 months. Waiting for my blood-panel at my review next week. I kinda assumed that VLC = great lipid profile.

7f8bc7ce5c34aae50408d31812c839b0

(2698)

on June 01, 2012
at 11:44 PM

My personal experince meshes exactly with what Jaminet says. I'm hypo and VLC does NOT work for me. I get raised TSH and high LDL on carb levels between 35 and 80 gm/day. At 80 or above my TSH is controllable and LDL is reduced.

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 02, 2012
at 03:18 PM

I now understand this starts the cycle of soaring lipids , in people like me who have good HDL, and low trig, but LDL just ballons, so for me it is not an issue of abundance but an issue of clearance. I expect I need to correct it with copper iodine selenium , and a little zinc, liver etc And other supplement recommended by the Quilt in his top ten supplements list. goodluck chessguy

0
Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

on June 01, 2012
at 01:32 PM

@borofergie

Absolutely correct my fat is now restricted I lowered fat intake 6 months ago ,(my calories are now somewhat restricted) when I noticed my ldl soaring, and increased protein.

I am sure my carb intake is on the low side , but I do this to keep my sugar levels stable, as I am diabetic type 2 controlling with diet only, no meds for it.Hoping keto style would help.

I reduced my carbs hoping it would get rid of the LDl.

imho it has to be diet or micronutrient related as I do not seem to have inflamation markers in my blood results

My bloods [posted above look fine , also my FBC full blood count looks textbook, no signs of inflamation, this leads me to conclude it is a diet issue,

I was thinking oft taking chelated copper , chelated zinc, iodine, and selenium,

not to sure how much to take, or if the chelated minerals can be taken together ?? any opinions on this

I expect as they are chelated forms they should not compete but I am not sure ..

My selenium and magnesium are good , Magnesium seen in my bloods looks fine , and selenium I eat Brazil nuts fairly often,

This leaves copper and Iodine. I will take supplements for this , not sure how long to wait for results and I will up my safe starches like sweet potatoe , and "normal" potatoes

thanks chessguy

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 01, 2012
at 05:44 PM

@MAMBO, where you aware some genotypes do not thrive well on dietary fat, ?? Mambo keep this on a positive debate level ,what makes you certain I am recovering from fatty liver disease ??? expand on this if you are knowledge in this field.It could be enlightening.. and on the particular enzyme tests you mention which ones, and why. chessguy

5e92edc5a180787a60a252a8232006e9

(345)

on June 01, 2012
at 03:15 PM

You're awash in a lot of misinformation. You do not have a grasp of what you're saying. What makes you think you have no inflammation issue? ESR of 5 is considerable inflammation. Where are your liver enzymes #s? You listed nonessential liver figures. As a diabetic, I'm almost certian you're recovering from fatty liver and pancreas. Stop making so many assumptions and be straight with your info. What are you eating? How can you be both low-fat and low-carb? Why are you afraid of fat?

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 01, 2012
at 05:33 PM

@MAMBO,hmmmm . misinformation, enlighten me where do you see that ESR of 5 is high, "you are certain I am recovering from fatty liver disease" and ask me stop making assumptions, Ironic, NVM. I can be low fat and low carb , did you read my question fully it was at different times. A person could be low fat low carb at the same time too, simply by eating a lot of protein.Not a good option I reckon. Also my CRP is less than 1 as mentioned above. Which liver tests are you referring to.and why ? My FBC is all well in ref range , if i had severe inflammation it would be all over the place,

0
Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

on June 01, 2012
at 09:26 AM

I do exercise minimum 30 mins a day minimum ,

I also do free standing squats no weights a few mins a day till my thighs burn, I expect this is adequate

chesgguy

0
Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

on May 31, 2012
at 10:07 PM

@Stephen thanks

I was eating the fat on lamb chops , but stopped that 6 months ago , no other fats in my meal except the fresh mix nuts about a handful a day ,

NO hidden fats what so ever. I am particular with my diet.

my triglycerides reflect my low sugar/carb diet

And the hdl is quite good too.

My hypothyroidism is being treated well now that I started the T3, before that the T3 was just below the minimum range.

High cholesterol does not run in my family.

I get fibre from flax and nuts and seeds, but I can always increase this .

Bowel movements are fine min twice daily. as I also have a good table spoon of greek yoghurt daily , it is high in fat % but I eat max 2 spoons daily ,frozen with berries.

The fat is definitely not from food, not in the last 6 months anyway , even before that I did not eat much fat or butter only the fat on a couple of lamb chops.Or a spoon of butter on scrambld eggs.

And I do not eat processed products meat or otherwise.

Regarding visceral fat , no pot belly here , I am fairly slim now my BMI body mass index is 25 which is fine .

At most I am 1 kilo overweight.

You mention interstitial fat being dumped, but my weight loss was not drastic, and it has been stable for about 5 months.So in theory this is quite possible but seems unlikely imho. but its one to watch ...

Have you ever had an abdominal ultrasound or MRI?

to find out if you are packing fat in the viscera.?

No I do have a little fat on my stomach but very little no six pack here .

looks like i need to add my comments in 2 sections #

Have you had your liver enzymes tested yes,

renal and liver all tests come back in middle of lab ranges or just below, had these done a few times to check , nothing suspect here,unless there is something particular to check that would indicate increased cholesterol production.?

liver tests show

total proteins 76g/l range 60 -80

albumin 48 range 35-50 TOTAL BILRUBIN 14 G/L range 0 -17 alt(GPT) 14 range 7 -35

alkaline photophatase 50 range 40 -129

gamma GT 17 range 0-60

does anyone know if chelated minerals can be taken at once like copper /zinc /magnesium/chelated. Or do they compete ?

any ideas ?

thanks chessguy

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on June 01, 2012
at 12:45 PM

@stephen diary ,, a little milk in 3 cups of tea a day, 2 table spoons of greek yoghurt , max 3 times a week a couple of slices of cheese once a week. you mention there is a hint that I eat a lot , please clarify albumin and bilrubin on the upper side perhaps from my raised protein intake .. fruit 1 kiwi in the morning , and half a bell fruit almost every day in some form, thanks chessguy

121a16aded2bed8dca492d3c9662ef4c

(1327)

on June 01, 2012
at 08:35 AM

The absence of a pot belly is not a guarantee you don't have visceral fat, that is, fat in the organs. If you had poor diet for a long time and are/were even slightly overweight, then that is a risk. I'm looking for evidence of fatty liver, here. Your liver function tests look okay, but they do hint that you are eating a lot (albumin on the high side, bilirubin on the high side). You mentioned yoghurt. How much dairy are you eating? Some people find that drives up their LDL. Have you considered stopping dairy entirely?

121a16aded2bed8dca492d3c9662ef4c

(1327)

on June 01, 2012
at 08:38 AM

Nuts and seeds provide insoluble fibre. You should see about getting more soluble fibre. If you don't want to eat any fruit because of your diabetes, then you would need to get it from vegetables, such zucchini, peppers, spinach, and so on. If you don't have a genetic form of high cholesterol, then as I said -- the fat has to be coming from somewhere. Either it's the food, or from inside you.

0
A2b9075bd176ca2912743e4df1e4af49

(146)

on May 31, 2012
at 09:13 PM

did you get your LDL parsed out??? do you know what kind of elevated LDL you have? You may have an abundance of large puffy LDL, which even when elevated don't harm you. You want to have a low count of small dense LDL. During your next lipid profile you should as them if they can parse out that ldl for you.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 31, 2012
at 10:41 PM

Where are you coming up with "large, puffy LDL don't harm you"?

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on May 31, 2012
at 10:19 PM

LDl Parsed "my LDl sub fraction test as I mentioned above will take circa 4 more weeks , unfortunately.

A2b9075bd176ca2912743e4df1e4af49

(146)

on June 05, 2012
at 01:57 AM

chump, small dense ldl is what causes the problems, large puffy ldl are virtually harmless. these small ldl are what are morphed from the vldl your body makes with your trigs are high.

0
121a16aded2bed8dca492d3c9662ef4c

on May 31, 2012
at 06:33 PM

It is not a coincidence that your LDL has dropped since starting the T3. It accelerates metabolism (big time!) including lipid metabolism.

Assuming there isn't something in your diet you haven't told us about (lots of coconut milk? Super fatty cuts of meat, maybe?)...

Your hypothyroidism (if it's real -- those lab numbers look fine, but then you are treating it. The trick is to figure what is causing it) may be contributing to the high LDL. It is also possible that your liver is dumping interstitial fat, now that you have corrected your diet. That would elevate your LDL until the fat has completely cleared. If you are a type 2 diabetic, it sure doesn't look like it!

Have you had your liver enzymes tested? Have you ever had an abdominal ultrasound or MRI?

Does high cholesterol run in your family? How are your bowel movements? How much soluble fibre (e.g. apples, vegetables) do you eat?

These results do suggest something is screwy.

The fat has to be coming from somewhere. If it's really not coming from your food, it would have to be from tissue. I'd check liver function and then ask for an abdominal ultrasound to find out if you are packing fat in the viscera.

EDIT: I can't believe I forgot this.

Are you exercising? How much physical activity do you get? People with hypothyroidism, even if controlled, often don't move very much. Vigorous activity will also bring your LDL down.

Bdcb4ecc75f7b6867b785a7eadf25ece

(38)

on May 31, 2012
at 10:05 PM

cholesterol high

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