1

votes

Lower abs and the pursuit to balance performance and vanity

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created October 12, 2011 at 11:21 AM

Hi, Following full blown paleo. No shakes, no dairy no grain etc. Almost zilch fruit. Post workout banana.

I am a runner and have been doing HIIT interval running, as well as a 2 day split push and pull routine with plyometrics and the 3 main exercises; squat bench deadlift.

I have lower ab fat(under belly button) and I think it may be cortisol related. I am low carb mod fat mod protein. About 80g carb a day pre and post workout. I wanna look good naked but also have performance. Should I continue a higher fat approach when I run at 80%+ of my HR for 30-40 minutes a day? how can I help manage the cortisol problems with sleep? I usually get up at like 2-3am and go toilet. Egads.

Help

Stats- Male 5ft 11" 170

C3bc92e6b5eba45dc55f43ac3c70cc25

on October 23, 2012
at 07:25 PM

What podcast # does Robb Wolf recommends 300g carbs? Curious what the question was.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on October 23, 2012
at 05:49 PM

And there should be an equally annoying banner about low carb being quite within the realm of paleo. Just try to answer the questions rather than coming up with catchphrases that do not encompass the full reality.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 13, 2011
at 05:59 PM

its from juice, rice, tubers and concentrated sugars

4c568f840f46dfc84da2c4b19ed1ee8e

(5)

on October 13, 2011
at 04:42 AM

Excess will cause a spill over though? Best fruit sources?

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 13, 2011
at 02:12 AM

so really, im trying to negate fruit (even though the juice has the pulp retained and its quiet thick to drink, and get rid of nuts, how would i make this work so i can still lose some weight and drop fat? This was done for me a few weeks before i started paleo. I started to follow paleo and ate heaps of fat, now i know i need carbs. i love paleo and want to take the results i got and use them to the best of my ability to get "shredded" pardon the cliche bodybuilding term. I just want to be proud of how hard i train and my times are getting better but also, want to impress/look good naked :)

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 13, 2011
at 02:03 AM

brekky:2 whole eggs, 4 egg whites extra 1/2 cup spinach, 1 tomato grilled, buckwheat toast (open grill i assume) snack: 20 mixed raw nuts, 1 scoop whey isolate in water lunch: 160g cooked size chicken breast with large salad (cucumber,red onion, kale and salad mix, red quinoa. 1 tblespoon olive dressing (olive oil,lemon, and apple cider vinegar) snack: 200g organic natural/sheep/goat yogurt with maca and acai berry mix powder pre training: 1 cup juice from apple, banana, kale, spinach, beetroo, pineapple dinner: 200g cooked wild caught salmon, 2 cups greens (broccoli etc) 1/2 cup sweet potato

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 13, 2011
at 02:02 AM

Brekky: 2 whole eggs, 4 egg whites extra 1/2 cup spinach, 1 tomato grilled, buckwheat toat (open grill i assume) snack: 2 mixed raw nuts, 1 scoop whey isolate in water lunch: 160g cooked size chicken breast with large salad (cucumber,red onion, kale and salad mix, red quinoa. 1 tblespoon olive dressing (olive oil,lemon, and apple cider vinegar) snack: 200g organic natural/sheep/goat yogurt with maca and acai berry mix powder pre training: 1 cup juice from apple, banana, kale, spinach, beetroo, pineapple dinner: 200g cooked wild caught salmon, 2 cups greens (broccoli etc) 1/2 cup sweet potato

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 13, 2011
at 01:56 AM

thanks citrusfire. sorry if i doubled up on asking questions. I had my RMR and BMR metabolically tested, and my rmr is 1450 and my BMR is 2430. How would i go about it? just eat a good piece of lean protein, some starch, lots of greens and a small dose of olive oil? Ill post my diet below from a non-paleo nutritionist and if i could have some help tweaking it that would be great to be paleo friendly.

Af005ec9a8e028f2b04bf5367b64e0d6

(2797)

on October 13, 2011
at 01:18 AM

runner_79, as I said, "potatoes (peel white potatoes), white rice, root vegetables" - you won't get enough carbs just from eating greens. And Tyler, I peel white potato skins because of saponins that might be slightly toxic/negatively affect gut permeability.. It's still unclear how actually harmful they might be, but most who want to be on the safe side peel them. I think with sweet potatoes, no need to peel.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on October 13, 2011
at 12:47 AM

Wow 1000grams of carbs, and from tubers I presume. I could only make it up to 600grams without feeling sick to my stomach.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 13, 2011
at 12:43 AM

You wont gain fat from fructose.......

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 13, 2011
at 12:42 AM

Go listen to any robb wolf podcast where he makes carb recommendations for athletes, he claims 300g is the baseline for the average cross-fitter. Running probably uses more glycogen.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 13, 2011
at 12:41 AM

@travis- your brain uses ~100g of glycogen a day so everyone is already burning 100g at baseline. When your under stress you use a lot of liver glycogen as well and most of us are under a ton of stress whether we realize it or not. Add this too some basic daily exercise and you can see how easy it is to use 300g. I've been eating 1000g+ lately and notice nothing but improvements in performance and health.

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 12, 2011
at 10:51 PM

+1 for JakeA's comment. i have a HR monitor (garmin 405) and track my training workouts. How would we calculate it?

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 12, 2011
at 10:49 PM

i eat lots of greens like broccoli, baby spinach, kale, asparagus, baby broccoli. is that what you mean or you mean starch? people need to rectify if they mean starch or fibrous when mentioning carbs. thanks for the feedback. :)

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 12, 2011
at 10:42 PM

what fruit would i go to? i like blueberries and raspberries. When can i eat them to minimize fat gain associated with fructose?

61a27a8b7ec2264b1821923b271eaf54

(3175)

on October 12, 2011
at 08:37 PM

I just started that same routine. I have been going crazy on body-weight exercises with a few walks and sprints thrown in since last spring. I hit a wall with reps and weight loss. My new strategy is 2 sets of 12 pullups once a week, 2 sets of 25 pushups once a week, 1-2 hours of slow walking 5-6 days a week. Sprints once every 2 weeks.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on October 12, 2011
at 08:11 PM

Fruit is of particular use for you. There is nothing wrong with it.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on October 12, 2011
at 08:11 PM

You need to hit the CHO with that kind of activity level. You're playing with fire by trying to maintain a LC diet and distance running. You will find yourself in a hole if you continue to try and maintain this combination. I'm a distance runner and my PR is faster and I too at one point tried maintaining my training and LC which led to cortisol and stress issues and a bit of fat under the belly despite running 90-100+ miles a week. You can't burn off inflammation.

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on October 12, 2011
at 08:03 PM

You need to hit the CHO, distance running and LC do not mix. I'm a distance runner coached out of Kenya, I can provide dietary guidelines that are needed for this type of activity level. I paid for some research to be done on the daily diets of the athletes down there. E-mail me: edward.edmonds@gmail.com and I'll provide you with the document.

1ec4e7ca085b7f8d5821529653e1e35a

(5506)

on October 12, 2011
at 07:05 PM

How do you calculate how much you use?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 12, 2011
at 07:02 PM

If someone uses 300g of glycogen, they should eat 300g a day. If they use 100g, they should eat 100g, etc.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on October 12, 2011
at 06:01 PM

+1...but did Robb Wolf really say that? I can't imagine him recommending 300 grams of carbohydrates.

1586db0f16b2cef51ee4e71ab08ad1a2

(965)

on October 12, 2011
at 04:13 PM

Which tuber skins need to be peeled and why exactly?

C3edabc6267abec9b5f8178e5d73552c

(725)

on October 12, 2011
at 03:53 PM

Running in the afternoon could cause high cortisol in the evenings.. cortisol is generally high in the mornings anyways so running in the am would mean that your cortisol levels would be low in the evenings. Try taking some phosphatidylserine after hard afternoon workouts. It is an expensive supplement, but worth a try for a month or two to see if it helps.

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on October 12, 2011
at 02:30 PM

I support this posting

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on October 12, 2011
at 01:14 PM

go ahead and replace a bunch of fat with carbs from tubers. Why eat that much fat? I just don't get it. For your activity it's not the best fuel choice. That said, that little bit of fat below the belly button is the hardest. I been trying to get that little bastard for years. 32 male 172-175 5'11"

4c568f840f46dfc84da2c4b19ed1ee8e

(5)

on October 12, 2011
at 12:34 PM

My 5k is 17:10 and my 10 is 35:10

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 12, 2011
at 12:24 PM

that is due to the dopamine effect or something along those line? i forgot to add, after i train at that intensity first thing in the AM, im wrecked rest of the day from running, but when i switched it up and did it in the afternoon (running), i have put on some ab fat. thoughts? BTW, thanks for the info. any bit of advice i appreciate very much

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on October 12, 2011
at 11:42 AM

What's your 5k PR?

  • 4c568f840f46dfc84da2c4b19ed1ee8e

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8 Answers

10
Af005ec9a8e028f2b04bf5367b64e0d6

on October 12, 2011
at 12:37 PM

Basically copy pasting from a past reply:

"Paleohacks should have a big sign at the top that says: PALEO DOES NOT MEAN LOW CARB.

Low carb paleo is often targeted towards people who are overweight and unhealthy. If you are healthy, active, and not trying to lose weight, there is absolutely NO reason to go low carb. Eat any kind of potatoes (peel white potatoes), white rice, root vegetables."

Low carb is good for losing a lot of weight. But if you are active and want to look good and perform well, you don't want your body to be overly stressed, which is what you are doing. Give it the nutrients it wants (even if it does not absolutely NEED carbohydrates).

Add in AT LEAST an additional 100g of tubers/rice etc. and try that out, even if it's just 2 weeks. If you "get fat" in 2 weeks you can stop. But i highly, highly doubt that will happen. Replace some of the fat calories with carbs if you want. Especially nuts - I would cut or reduce nuts for sure, if you're eating them.

In my experience, for people who are active, healthy, but are overstressing their body and don't look/perform as well as they want to on the paleo diet, it is ALWAYS because they are not eating enough carbs. Literally always. I was going to write almost always but I can't think of a time that eating more carbs didnt help a person like that, in my experience.

26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

(7967)

on October 12, 2011
at 02:30 PM

I support this posting

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 13, 2011
at 02:12 AM

so really, im trying to negate fruit (even though the juice has the pulp retained and its quiet thick to drink, and get rid of nuts, how would i make this work so i can still lose some weight and drop fat? This was done for me a few weeks before i started paleo. I started to follow paleo and ate heaps of fat, now i know i need carbs. i love paleo and want to take the results i got and use them to the best of my ability to get "shredded" pardon the cliche bodybuilding term. I just want to be proud of how hard i train and my times are getting better but also, want to impress/look good naked :)

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 13, 2011
at 01:56 AM

thanks citrusfire. sorry if i doubled up on asking questions. I had my RMR and BMR metabolically tested, and my rmr is 1450 and my BMR is 2430. How would i go about it? just eat a good piece of lean protein, some starch, lots of greens and a small dose of olive oil? Ill post my diet below from a non-paleo nutritionist and if i could have some help tweaking it that would be great to be paleo friendly.

1586db0f16b2cef51ee4e71ab08ad1a2

(965)

on October 12, 2011
at 04:13 PM

Which tuber skins need to be peeled and why exactly?

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 12, 2011
at 10:49 PM

i eat lots of greens like broccoli, baby spinach, kale, asparagus, baby broccoli. is that what you mean or you mean starch? people need to rectify if they mean starch or fibrous when mentioning carbs. thanks for the feedback. :)

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 13, 2011
at 02:02 AM

Brekky: 2 whole eggs, 4 egg whites extra 1/2 cup spinach, 1 tomato grilled, buckwheat toat (open grill i assume) snack: 2 mixed raw nuts, 1 scoop whey isolate in water lunch: 160g cooked size chicken breast with large salad (cucumber,red onion, kale and salad mix, red quinoa. 1 tblespoon olive dressing (olive oil,lemon, and apple cider vinegar) snack: 200g organic natural/sheep/goat yogurt with maca and acai berry mix powder pre training: 1 cup juice from apple, banana, kale, spinach, beetroo, pineapple dinner: 200g cooked wild caught salmon, 2 cups greens (broccoli etc) 1/2 cup sweet potato

Af005ec9a8e028f2b04bf5367b64e0d6

(2797)

on October 13, 2011
at 01:18 AM

runner_79, as I said, "potatoes (peel white potatoes), white rice, root vegetables" - you won't get enough carbs just from eating greens. And Tyler, I peel white potato skins because of saponins that might be slightly toxic/negatively affect gut permeability.. It's still unclear how actually harmful they might be, but most who want to be on the safe side peel them. I think with sweet potatoes, no need to peel.

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 13, 2011
at 02:03 AM

brekky:2 whole eggs, 4 egg whites extra 1/2 cup spinach, 1 tomato grilled, buckwheat toast (open grill i assume) snack: 20 mixed raw nuts, 1 scoop whey isolate in water lunch: 160g cooked size chicken breast with large salad (cucumber,red onion, kale and salad mix, red quinoa. 1 tblespoon olive dressing (olive oil,lemon, and apple cider vinegar) snack: 200g organic natural/sheep/goat yogurt with maca and acai berry mix powder pre training: 1 cup juice from apple, banana, kale, spinach, beetroo, pineapple dinner: 200g cooked wild caught salmon, 2 cups greens (broccoli etc) 1/2 cup sweet potato

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on October 23, 2012
at 05:49 PM

And there should be an equally annoying banner about low carb being quite within the realm of paleo. Just try to answer the questions rather than coming up with catchphrases that do not encompass the full reality.

2
1ec4e7ca085b7f8d5821529653e1e35a

(5506)

on October 12, 2011
at 12:16 PM

I would eat 100-150 carbs with that big of a workload. But that would be on the rubbing days. Maybe a little less on the lifting days.

Also I found that eating the majority of my carbs at dinner helps me sleep.

C3edabc6267abec9b5f8178e5d73552c

(725)

on October 12, 2011
at 03:53 PM

Running in the afternoon could cause high cortisol in the evenings.. cortisol is generally high in the mornings anyways so running in the am would mean that your cortisol levels would be low in the evenings. Try taking some phosphatidylserine after hard afternoon workouts. It is an expensive supplement, but worth a try for a month or two to see if it helps.

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 12, 2011
at 12:24 PM

that is due to the dopamine effect or something along those line? i forgot to add, after i train at that intensity first thing in the AM, im wrecked rest of the day from running, but when i switched it up and did it in the afternoon (running), i have put on some ab fat. thoughts? BTW, thanks for the info. any bit of advice i appreciate very much

1
20eefe24d8ccf096096f05b5bce1ea40

(988)

on October 12, 2011
at 07:50 PM

I was in the same boat, and nothing really worked. So I tried a new approach, I did really easy workouts, just a few push/pull ups, and slept about 10 hours a night. Most days I didnt do anything, it was great. I droped 8-9 pounds of fat, and saw wild improvements in the number of push/pulls us I was doing, probably in part due to a few less pounds, but muscles started showin up all over, and I didnt do anything to earn them. I didnt run, or do any ab work, or work out for more than 10 minutes at a time. Before this lazy approach, I was doing hardass workouts and training for a marathon, as soon as I slowed down, I saw improvements, big ones. If you've been doing hard workouts for a while, take two weeks off and do really easy ones, you wont drop any gains in that amount of time, and your overworked body will rest and get strong. So sleep more, do less, and watch what happens. I bet you'll see improvements in everything after about 2 weeks. Its usually best to do 1 easy week a month, helps prevent injury and is a chance to heal, but if you've been in hardass mode, I know how hard it can be to go easy, but its gonna be the best thing for you.

61a27a8b7ec2264b1821923b271eaf54

(3175)

on October 12, 2011
at 08:37 PM

I just started that same routine. I have been going crazy on body-weight exercises with a few walks and sprints thrown in since last spring. I hit a wall with reps and weight loss. My new strategy is 2 sets of 12 pullups once a week, 2 sets of 25 pushups once a week, 1-2 hours of slow walking 5-6 days a week. Sprints once every 2 weeks.

1
E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 12, 2011
at 12:46 PM

As others have said eat more carbs, chronic exercise+carb restriction is fail. 300g would be a good starting point according to robb wolf.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on October 12, 2011
at 06:01 PM

+1...but did Robb Wolf really say that? I can't imagine him recommending 300 grams of carbohydrates.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 12, 2011
at 07:02 PM

If someone uses 300g of glycogen, they should eat 300g a day. If they use 100g, they should eat 100g, etc.

109c50779c3875f1864635d8ffc328c3

on October 12, 2011
at 10:51 PM

+1 for JakeA's comment. i have a HR monitor (garmin 405) and track my training workouts. How would we calculate it?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 13, 2011
at 12:41 AM

@travis- your brain uses ~100g of glycogen a day so everyone is already burning 100g at baseline. When your under stress you use a lot of liver glycogen as well and most of us are under a ton of stress whether we realize it or not. Add this too some basic daily exercise and you can see how easy it is to use 300g. I've been eating 1000g+ lately and notice nothing but improvements in performance and health.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on October 13, 2011
at 12:47 AM

Wow 1000grams of carbs, and from tubers I presume. I could only make it up to 600grams without feeling sick to my stomach.

1ec4e7ca085b7f8d5821529653e1e35a

(5506)

on October 12, 2011
at 07:05 PM

How do you calculate how much you use?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 13, 2011
at 12:42 AM

Go listen to any robb wolf podcast where he makes carb recommendations for athletes, he claims 300g is the baseline for the average cross-fitter. Running probably uses more glycogen.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 13, 2011
at 05:59 PM

its from juice, rice, tubers and concentrated sugars

C3bc92e6b5eba45dc55f43ac3c70cc25

on October 23, 2012
at 07:25 PM

What podcast # does Robb Wolf recommends 300g carbs? Curious what the question was.

0
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on October 23, 2012
at 06:02 PM

Check out this paper: The effects of alanine, glucose and starch ingestion on the ketosis produced by exercise and by starvation. Then, note the guy named Noakes, one of the researchers. You want to find more stuff by him. He knows running.
Here is an interview with Jimmy Moore did with him: Tim Noakes.

Anyway, the take home from the study is that post-workout starch seems to do what we need it to do, but it's effect on ketone production post-workout is very temporary, so you get back decent ketone levels quickly.

If there aren't solid levels of some fuel, cortisol will kick in to wake you up and get you foraging for food.

0
152cc0f3feb066598dbd53ce178f3dbc

(10)

on October 23, 2012
at 05:33 PM

My only solution is similiar to Grover's. I take Thursdays completely off...within reason. No exercise and two free meals. I'm just not that hungry but I eat carbs and I mean pizza occassionally. I force myself to not do any exercise....no pushups, no pull ups no treadmill. It's tough. My baby bump [looking] belly fat went right away. Good luck.

0
4c568f840f46dfc84da2c4b19ed1ee8e

on October 12, 2011
at 08:25 PM

So I'll up the carb intake, drop fat intake. Nuts oh god. Love them. Need to shake them off. What is better. Yam or sweet potato? Yeah I feel I need them. Thanks everyone. Absominals are made in the kitchen so it is best to eat a tuber at each sitting or just pre and post? I wanna get faster but also lose this damn little bit of blub.

Thanks everyone. Any kore advice please add in!!!

0
C3edabc6267abec9b5f8178e5d73552c

(725)

on October 12, 2011
at 04:03 PM

certain parts of your body have more alpha 2 receptor sites making it harder to lose fat ("stubborn fat"). For males, its the lower abs. Check this out by Lyle McDonald: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-is-stubborn-fat-stubborn.html

Intermittent fasting can help with stubborn fat but yohimbine is a supplement that can help. You have to take it in a fasted state because insulin limits its effectiveness. It is sold as a supplement that helps with sexual activity because it increases blood flow to the sex organs. This is exactly what makes it good for stubborn fat as one of the things about alpha cells is that they don't get great blood flow. I must warn you that this supplement can make you feel terrible. Start with a very low dose, especially if you are sensitive to supplements. I believe some fat burning supplements like VPX meltdown have yohimbine.

I need to say that I am not advocating supplements for fat loss. It should be a last resort, and money is better spent on food. Unless you are a model or bodybuilder or something, using yohimbine is not necessary, as it is $ and can make you feel uncomfortable. However, it may be worth learning about it because the mechanism behind why it works explains what makes stubborn fat hard to lose.

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